Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lets compare Goff Ork Nobz with Black Templar Primaris Intercessors, there's a 3 point difference between those two models.

For those 3 points the Intercessors get:
RANGED
Improved BS by 2
30" range rapid fire gun
AP Improved by 2
Better Dakka Dakka Dakka, auto hitting and generating an auto hitting bolter shot on 6's
Damage 2 against all vehicles and buildings (iirc black templar get this as it is a successor chapter, correct me if I'm wrong)

MELEE
Reduced Strength and Attacks by 1
AP Improved by 1
Can still reroll charge dice like orks
6's to hit auto wound against non-vehicles

MISC
Save improved to a 3+ save
Improved Leadership by +4 LD
Improved movement speed by +1
A 5+++ against mortal wounds


Are 3 points really worth that many bonus effects? What do you gits on Dakka^3 think?

Comparing cross codex options like that doesn't make very much sense.

Take eldar which (albiet not right now) have spent a large amount of 8th edition in the spotlight; basically every data sheet fails the competitive test. Yet ynnari (as they once where) had to be wiped off the face of the planet. They get their strength from having the best psychic powers, doom jinx, protect etc as well as stratagems like lightning fast that help protect them. If I put a unit in a position where if you don't deal with it I win the game, then make it -3 hit, 3++ (sometimes 2++) and a 5+ feel no pain, it really didn't matter how many points it initially costed.

Factions lack tools to answer some things efficiently on purpose (part of game design), while being immensely powerful in others. Units exist alongside other units, and wl traits, relics, stratagems etc. In pure marines if you want a brigade you have to pay up the wazoo. Orks build brigades generally off the stuff you take anyway for example.


A comparison between units between codex can really only be accurately drawn if the plan is spamming that unit and both game plan revolves around that key unit. Both of which intercessors and nobz are not.

Actually, almost no one runs Ork Brigades (rather, we run triple Battalions). While we have decent HQ, Troop, and Heavy selections, our Elite and Fast Attack options are mediocre at best and actively detrimental at worst.

 flandarz wrote:
Actually, almost no one runs Ork Brigades (rather, we run triple Battalions). While we have decent HQ, Troop, and Heavy selections, our Elite and Fast Attack options are mediocre at best and actively detrimental at worst.

Sure, change the example for guard brigades instead of orks. Specifics don't really matter; only thing that does matter is there is differences.

Of course. Just correcting something, so folks ain't thinking Orkz are running around with these dope Brigades.

But yeah. It's real hard to do cross-codex comparisons like that. You got to look at more than the stat line. That said, in the OP's example, I would 100% agree that Nobz are overpriced in the current meta.

I do not think the BT have dakkakkadakka generating hits on 6 not damage 2 against vehicles because they do have their very own CT.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
So that would be fewer differences for 3pts.

 godardc wrote:
I do not think the BT have dakkakkadakka generating hits on 6 not damage 2 against vehicles because they do have their very own CT.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
So that would be fewer differences for 3pts.

They are a successor chapter of Imperial Fists and thus get their base rules until FAQ'd

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Lets compare Goff Ork Nobz with Black Templar Primaris Intercessors, there's a 3 point difference between those two models.

For those 3 points the Intercessors get:
RANGED
Improved BS by 2
30" range rapid fire gun
AP Improved by 2
Better Dakka Dakka Dakka, auto hitting and generating an auto hitting bolter shot on 6's
Damage 2 against all vehicles and buildings (iirc black templar get this as it is a successor chapter, correct me if I'm wrong)

MELEE
Reduced Strength and Attacks by 1
AP Improved by 1
Can still reroll charge dice like orks
6's to hit auto wound against non-vehicles

MISC
Save improved to a 3+ save
Improved Leadership by +4 LD
Improved movement speed by +1
A 5+++ against mortal wounds


Are 3 points really worth that many bonus effects? What do you gits on Dakka^3 think?

No, they're not.

But, a straight codex Intercessor without and absurd supplement that reads like a bad fandex is:
RANGED:
+2 BS [twice as good at shooting]
+2 AP
+12" range, though only one shot.
Does not have DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA

MELEE:
-1 A, -2 when not in the first round of melee [since you assumed the Nob had a choppa and slugga]
-1 S

DEFENSIVE:
+1 Sv.
5+++ against Mortal Wounds
+2 Ld

Is that worth 3 points? Uh, probably not, but it's not far off. That said, the Nob can buy himself a Big Choppa, putting him 2 points more than the intercessor and making the Nob:
MELEE:
same A on the charge
+3 S
+2 AP
+1 D

And at that point, I'd say that the relative costs are fairly fairish with a un-supplemented BT Intercessor.

Nobz might be ok. If you look at a unit like Chosen against Intercessors, though...

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nobz might be ok. If you look at a unit like Chosen against Intercessors, though...

And even worse, cultmarines

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

And at that point, I'd say that the relative costs are fairly fairish with a un-supplemented BT Intercessor.

The problem is un-supplemented Intercessors (or any other SM unit) simply don’t exist in the competitive meta. Supplements are now the norm.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

And at that point, I'd say that the relative costs are fairly fairish with a un-supplemented BT Intercessor.

The problem is un-supplemented Intercessors (or any other SM unit) simply don’t exist in the competitive meta. Supplements are now the norm.

I dunno but normally here our marines just decided to tell the supplements to shove it. Especially the diehard ih resident.


My r&h still die like that one soviet charge scene, but they are not an measurment bar.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

And at that point, I'd say that the relative costs are fairly fairish with a un-supplemented BT Intercessor.

The problem is un-supplemented Intercessors (or any other SM unit) simply don’t exist in the competitive meta. Supplements are now the norm.

I dunno but normally here our marines just decided to tell the supplements to shove it. Especially the diehard ih resident.


My r&h still die like that one soviet charge scene, but they are not an measurment bar.

Of course whatever your group decides to house rule YMMV, in terms of competitive play though, they are always taken with supplement support.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

And at that point, I'd say that the relative costs are fairly fairish with a un-supplemented BT Intercessor.

The problem is un-supplemented Intercessors (or any other SM unit) simply don’t exist in the competitive meta. Supplements are now the norm.

I dunno but normally here our marines just decided to tell the supplements to shove it. Especially the diehard ih resident.


My r&h still die like that one soviet charge scene, but they are not an measurment bar.

Of course whatever your group decides to house rule YMMV, in terms of competitive play though, they are always taken with supplement support.

Aye, but considering the results in competitive it is safe to say that Supplements are the core issue, not the units in the dex 2.0. which was needed imo.

@ OP:

There is no strict formula for applying a point´s worth in GW rules mechanic. The devs sip gin on a porch at sunset until they get an idea. Sometimes the idea won´t come as fast as they like and inspiration strikes them when they are already drunk. That´s also the reason why the points are often questionable and spawn multiple threads here on dakka like this one.

Ozomoto wrote:
Comparing cross codex options like that doesn't make very much sense.

This kind of non-sense has to die really.

Comparing datasheets cross codex is the first and main step in order to gauge if one unit is worth its points or not, especially in the age of Soup. If one unit's datasheet compares defavorably to another one's, all the synergies in the world will only serve to level the field. Even in the Golden Age of Ynnari, only those units with the most broken datasheets were used. Out of 3 codices worth of units, only half a dozen were picked. If a unit needs a stratagem, a psychic power and character support in order to be just as good as another unit with no support, then it's not worth playing.

For a good example, see Meganobz (35pts) vs Aggressors (37pts). Even with 4CP for shooting twice and exploding 5's and 6's, Meganobz could never compete with Aggressors.

Ignoring army wide bonuses (Angels of death vs 'Ere we go / Dakka dakka), the latter have : +1 move speed, +2 BS, +1 Attack for the Sergeant, +1 LD, +5.5 shots and a freakin' rule that allows them to SHOOT TWICE, -1 Save. The Strength / Toughness disparities cancel each other.

Is that worth 2pts ? The datasheets alone tell us it's going to be an uphill battle. But the craziest thing is that Meganobz have basically NO SYNERGIES AT ALL . Aggressors benefit from dozens...

 Nym wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:
Comparing cross codex options like that doesn't make very much sense.

This kind of non-sense has to die really.

Comparing datasheets cross codex is the first and main step in order to gauge if one unit is worth its points or not, especially in the age of Soup. If one unit's datasheet compares defavorably to another one's, all the synergies in the world will only serve to level the field.

I disagree. Soup does not factor in if you compare a Space Marine and an Ork unit with each other. Especially now since Marine factions have a very strong incentive to stay mono.

Comparing two units from two completely different factions like Orks and Marines with each other is not viable, because of internal balance. Some factions are supposed to have very cheap chaff troops for objective grabbing or slot filling and they indirectly pay for that with - comparativley - overcosted units in other areas.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Comparing two units from two completely different factions like Orks and Marines with each other is not viable, because of internal balance. Some factions are supposed to have very cheap chaff troops for objective grabbing or slot filling and they indirectly pay for that with - comparativley - overcosted units in other areas.

This is exactly what I was refering to when I said that this non-sense has to stop.

What happens when one codex has very cheap chaff troops but overcosted elites ? People just DON'T USE ELITES. They pick the cheap chaff Troops from one codex and the strong Elites from another codex.

And what if we're talking about Xenos like Orks who can't soup ? People STILL DON'T USE ELITES. They take the cheap chaff Troops and the cheap Heavy Support and HQ (Smasha guns and SSag Mek)

Now what if you nerf the cheap Smasha guns and Super SAG ? People stop playing Orks. Plain and simple. That's why this "this unit is expensive because this other unit is cheap" is non-sensical as far as game balance is concerned.

What you are describing is people taking units because of internal balancing issues.

Your train of thought is "my Heavy Support choice is much better for it's points than my Elite choice, so I take the cannon"

It is not "My Elite choice is comparable in points with the Elite choice of army X, but is much worse so I will not field it".

If you soup, then you basically have one very big army list to pick from.


You can't just say "my Elite choice is much worse, I will only field the chaff, because it is better costed points wise". You need that Elite choice, because it provides your army with things that your chaff won't. Could be anti tank, could be mobility, could be punchyness and so on.



Your argument boils down to "People take the best performing units in the books available to them and ignore weaker options". Has nothing to do with cross codex comparison.

 Nym wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
Comparing two units from two completely different factions like Orks and Marines with each other is not viable, because of internal balance. Some factions are supposed to have very cheap chaff troops for objective grabbing or slot filling and they indirectly pay for that with - comparativley - overcosted units in other areas.

This is exactly what I was refering to when I said that this non-sense has to stop.

What happens when one codex has very cheap chaff troops but overcosted elites ? People just DON'T USE ELITES. They pick the cheap chaff Troops from one codex and the strong Elites from another codex.

And what if we're talking about Xenos like Orks who can't soup ? People STILL DON'T USE ELITES. They take the cheap chaff Troops and the cheap Heavy Support and HQ (Smasha guns and SSag Mek)

Now what if you nerf the cheap Smasha guns and Super SAG ? People stop playing Orks. Plain and simple. That's why this "this unit is expensive because this other unit is cheap" is non-sensical as far as game balance is concerned.

At the same time it's disingenuous to assume the marine gets the main chapter bonuses, all the doctrines, and successor traits.

Big choppa Nobz absolutely crush intercessors in melee.

Sometimes the belief a unit is bad coupled with need to solve for how to clear chaff and get them to combat keeps them off the table.

If you drop nob points too much you'd see people throwing stacks of them through deep strike and jump to the exclusion of other units.

The plain truth is that it's just easier to sit back and toss smasha gun shots from behind grots.

I dont have a perfect solution for you though.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I do not think the BT have dakkakkadakka generating hits on 6 not damage 2 against vehicles because they do have their very own CT.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
So that would be fewer differences for 3pts.

They are a successor chapter of Imperial Fists and thus get their base rules until FAQ'd

No, they really don't. They get 5+ ignore mortal wounds, reroll charges and their new super doctrine in PA2. They certainly do not get the base Imperial Fists traits, not if you're running them as Black Templars.

As bad as Intercessors were at the beginning of 8th the reality is that right not theres not really many troop options that can compare with then, and in many cases, even elite options. A squad of 5 intercessors and a sargeant armed with a Rifle+Powerfist is a cheap, very resilient, and threatening both in meele and in shooting troop unit.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

And at that point, I'd say that the relative costs are fairly fairish with a un-supplemented BT Intercessor.

The problem is un-supplemented Intercessors (or any other SM unit) simply don’t exist in the competitive meta. Supplements are now the norm.

The point I was making is that the supplements are what's driving things seriously out of whack in the balance department, because they give a stack of special rules at no cost, but the things with just the base rulebook are fairly okay in the balance department.

Nobz have been mediocre at best even before the space marine codex.

I don't see a point in this thread. Who cares what BT Intercessors do when you are playing against orks vs eldar?