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So I haven't really been paying attention to the Imperiums lore Post 13th Black Crusade. Has Girlyman started Cleaning up the Inquisition and gotten rid of the Ecclearchy yet? He knows that the Ecclearchy is like the exact opposite of what Big E wanted right? More or less same with Inquistion.

No, Guiliman has not started a second Heresy that would destroy the Imperium.

Sterling191 wrote:
No, Guiliman has not started a second Heresy that would destroy the Imperium.

How is it Heresy if its the Emperors ACTUAL will. The Ecclearchy is itself heretical as dumb as that sounds given that being Deified is the exact opposite of what Big E wanted and Girlyman Knows this .

chimera0205 wrote:

How is it Heresy if its the Emperors ACTUAL will. The Ecclearchy is itself heretical as dumb as that sounds given that being Deified is the exact opposite of what Big E wanted and Girlyman Knows this .

Openly revolting against the Ecclesiarchy is heresy. In M42, the Imperial Truth is heresy.

Fortunately for the Imperium Guiliman isn't dumb enough to openly attack one of the only institutions that keeps the regime from completely collapsing.

chimera0205 wrote:
So I haven't really been paying attention to the Imperiums lore Post 13th Black Crusade. Has Girlyman started Cleaning up the Inquisition and gotten rid of the Ecclearchy yet? He knows that the Ecclearchy is like the exact opposite of what Big E wanted right? More or less same with Inquistion.

As Sterling has noted, the Ecclesiarchy is acting as a strong binding agent for the Imperium. The Imperial Cult has wound itself so tightly into the soul of the Imperium that it has become fused to it. Trying to remove it would cause mass destruction and most certainly another Age of Apostasy scenario, if not a galactic civil war on levels approaching the Horus Heresy.

“But it the opposite of the Emperor’s will!”
Congratulations, that is a fun bit of the setting. It is incredibly naive to think that one who is not the Emperor himself could dictate the end of an organization that employs a shifting uncountable number of people across the galaxy be disbanded. One would bring about economic and spiritual turmoil. Guilliman understands this, so he has reluctantly embraced Demigod-hood in order to play along and not cause a galactic schism.

 Apple Peel wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
So I haven't really been paying attention to the Imperiums lore Post 13th Black Crusade. Has Girlyman started Cleaning up the Inquisition and gotten rid of the Ecclearchy yet? He knows that the Ecclearchy is like the exact opposite of what Big E wanted right? More or less same with Inquistion.

As Sterling has noted, the Ecclesiarchy is acting as a strong binding agent for the Imperium. The Imperial Cult has wound itself so tightly into the soul of the Imperium that it has become fused to it. Trying to remove it would cause mass destruction and most certainly another Age of Apostasy scenario, if not a galactic civil war on levels approaching the Horus Heresy.

“But it the opposite of the Emperor’s will!”
Congratulations, that is a fun bit of the setting. It is incredibly naive to think that one who is not the Emperor himself could dictate the end of an organization that employs a shifting uncountable number of people across the galaxy be disbanded. One would bring about economic and spiritual turmoil. Guilliman understands this, so he has reluctantly embraced Demigod-hood in order to play along and not cause a galactic schism.

As the Emperors last known living loyal son isnt Gullimans word as good as the Emperors? If he orders something its should be the same as the Emperor himself doing so correct?

It's also such a vast system that even with a person of his power and influence every time he fixes one area there's a good chance one or more other areas that he previously fixed go back to their old ways or develop new broken ways to break down.


The system is rotten to its very core from the original vision of the Emperor. It's also so vast and under continual heavy invasion and military pressure from outside forces and power struggles within that you can't just shake the table too heavily. If the Imperium were to collapse on itself into civil war then there are multiple enemies that would surge in.

Chaos would have a field day; Tyranids and orks too. Forces like Tau would get an even greater chance to get their head up above the risk of Imperium reprisal and could swell to dominate very significant portions of the Galaxy.

Meanwhile who knows what the Eldar might do - seeing humanity fall apart yet again they might decide its time to take them in hand and take over a large portion of them to craft them directly to their ideals and plan rather than working in the background.



Guilliman has an almost impossible job to rebuild what has rotted and changed all whilst in a state of total war that has no end in sight and only seems to get worse as the years roll on. Even his new weapon of the Primaris hasn't stopped Cadia falling or another Black Crusade slicing its way through the Galaxy. To say nothing of Tyranids destroying nearly two major Marine Legions and now building some kind of huge planet for a purpose only they know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
So I haven't really been paying attention to the Imperiums lore Post 13th Black Crusade. Has Girlyman started Cleaning up the Inquisition and gotten rid of the Ecclearchy yet? He knows that the Ecclearchy is like the exact opposite of what Big E wanted right? More or less same with Inquistion.

As Sterling has noted, the Ecclesiarchy is acting as a strong binding agent for the Imperium. The Imperial Cult has wound itself so tightly into the soul of the Imperium that it has become fused to it. Trying to remove it would cause mass destruction and most certainly another Age of Apostasy scenario, if not a galactic civil war on levels approaching the Horus Heresy.

“But it the opposite of the Emperor’s will!”
Congratulations, that is a fun bit of the setting. It is incredibly naive to think that one who is not the Emperor himself could dictate the end of an organization that employs a shifting uncountable number of people across the galaxy be disbanded. One would bring about economic and spiritual turmoil. Guilliman understands this, so he has reluctantly embraced Demigod-hood in order to play along and not cause a galactic schism.

As the Emperors last known living loyal son isnt Gullimans word as good as the Emperors? If he orders something its should be the same as the Emperor himself doing so correct?

Yes, however whilst the Emperor is God that doesn't mean the "church" has to want to do what God says; esp if it results in them losing power, influence, money etc... They've been in charge for a very long time; some will aim to appease the new order to keep their power under a new system; others will battle against any kind of change that is not promoted by themselves.

From "To Speak as One" (Cehen-qui is an Inquisitor) -

‘While I believe the returned primarch to be true to the cause of human survival, Lord Guilliman has no more right to command the Inquisition than Cawl has. To whom is the Inquisition answerable, Valeneez?’
‘The Emperor Himself,’ said Valeneez deferentially. ‘But the Lord Guilliman is the Emperor’s son, and His appointed deputy, ruling in His stead, so therefore it is reasonable to–’
‘Appointed by whom?’ said Cehen-qui loudly. The few crew on the command deck tried very hard not to listen in. ‘We only have his word that the Emperor gave him this role. Of course,’ he said, tugging his coat into place, ‘his right to command the armies of the Imperium in defence and reconquest of the Emperor’s domains is indisputable, but command the Inquisition, whose operations he has actively worked against? Never. The primarch’s authority in this matter will not stand.

If he started explaining that the Emperor isn't a god and people must stop worshiping him, his status as a "loyal" primarch would be put into question real quick. No one can say for sure if another major civil war would break out over that, but it's definitely possible and it's really not worth the risk when there are many other issues to deal with.

Considering the state of the Imperium, the sensible thing is to play along and use the power of the ecclesiarchy instead of fighting against it. Guilliman is just being pragmatic there.

beast_gts wrote:
From "To Speak as One" (Cehen-qui is an Inquisitor) -

‘While I believe the returned primarch to be true to the cause of human survival, Lord Guilliman has no more right to command the Inquisition than Cawl has. To whom is the Inquisition answerable, Valeneez?’
‘The Emperor Himself,’ said Valeneez deferentially. ‘But the Lord Guilliman is the Emperor’s son, and His appointed deputy, ruling in His stead, so therefore it is reasonable to–’
‘Appointed by whom?’ said Cehen-qui loudly. The few crew on the command deck tried very hard not to listen in. ‘We only have his word that the Emperor gave him this role. Of course,’ he said, tugging his coat into place, ‘his right to command the armies of the Imperium in defence and reconquest of the Emperor’s domains is indisputable, but command the Inquisition, whose operations he has actively worked against? Never. The primarch’s authority in this matter will not stand.

Thats dumb. That's really really dumb. The inquition is clearly out of control and needs to be culled. If they refuse to repect the authority of a god damn Primarch then theyve clearly and compeltely outstipped.there original mandate and should be considered rogue and treated as such.

chimera0205 wrote:
should be considered rogue and treated as such.

Bit's of them are - the Ordo Chronos is currently fighting a civil war due to Guilliman & the Chronostrife (and if trying to get a reliable Imperial history causes that much trouble, imagine what actual reform would do!).

 Overread wrote:

Yes, however whilst the Emperor is God that doesn't mean the "church" has to want to do what God says; esp if it results in them losing power, influence, money etc... They've been in charge for a very long time; some will aim to appease the new order to keep their power under a new system; others will battle against any kind of change that is not promoted by themselves.

The Ecclesiarchy has been the voice that spoke for Big E for millenia. So far as the Imperium is concerned, what the Ecclesiarchy commands *is* what the voice of God commands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

beast_gts wrote:

Bit's of them are - the Ordo Chronos is currently fighting a civil war due to Guilliman & the Chronostrife (and if trying to get a reliable Imperial history causes that much trouble, imagine what actual reform would do!).

Precisely. This is roughly the equivalent of the Hundred Years War breaking out in response to an argument over Daylight Savings Time. Guillliman going full blown Martin Luther would cause a galactic meltdown the likes of which hasnt been seen since Horus went wackadoo, if not worse.

chimera0205 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
From "To Speak as One" (Cehen-qui is an Inquisitor) -

‘While I believe the returned primarch to be true to the cause of human survival, Lord Guilliman has no more right to command the Inquisition than Cawl has. To whom is the Inquisition answerable, Valeneez?’
‘The Emperor Himself,’ said Valeneez deferentially. ‘But the Lord Guilliman is the Emperor’s son, and His appointed deputy, ruling in His stead, so therefore it is reasonable to–’
‘Appointed by whom?’ said Cehen-qui loudly. The few crew on the command deck tried very hard not to listen in. ‘We only have his word that the Emperor gave him this role. Of course,’ he said, tugging his coat into place, ‘his right to command the armies of the Imperium in defence and reconquest of the Emperor’s domains is indisputable, but command the Inquisition, whose operations he has actively worked against? Never. The primarch’s authority in this matter will not stand.

Thats dumb. That's really really dumb. The inquition is clearly out of control and needs to be culled. If they refuse to repect the authority of a god damn Primarch then theyve clearly and compeltely outstipped.there original mandate and should be considered rogue and treated as such.

It's about power. The Inquisition has it and does not want to give it up to someone who likely will strip even more power and authority from them. You can't just cull them because they will fight back and other power groups will join with them. Before long you've got a civil war which would likely further create problems. The Primarch returning causing all this war and internal strife - clearly he's been corrupted by Chaos or is a false prophet! He must be cast down swiftly so that the Imperium can reunite and focus on the foes without not fight within itself etc....

Guilliman might have a lot of power in theory and be the child of their god; but in actuality he has to step the same political steps as the others in order to get his way. He can barge through some things, but not all. Plus there's the scale of the operation - the Imperium already loses whole planets, heck whole systems of worlds within its archiving system. That's a huge behemoth to move and change after thousands of years of dogma.

The thing about the excerpt is that Cehen-qui is wrong, Guilliman was given his role by the Emperor - but we only know that from an out-of-universe perspective. No-one else was there, and therefore, without that proof, he has every right to question if Guillliman was actually given the authority to govern over the Inquisition. Therefore, him saying that about Guilliman makes complete sense.

However, as a counterpoint to that, he claims that his authority as an Inquisitor was given to him by the Emperor. But was it? Did the Emperor personally come to Cehen-qui and tell him he had authority? I doubt it. So Cehen-qui claiming that he has ultimate power and acts directly for the Emperor is just as debatable (from an in-universe perspective) as Guilliman's authority is.

Of course, from an out of universe perspective, we know this not to be the case, Guilliman's claim is stronger, but not everyone in universe knows that.

The Inquisition is prevented from falling under Guilliman's control by the same rules that prevented them from falling under Goge Vandire's control. And they have no reason to believe Guilliman is any less corruptible than Horus was. The Inquisition knows that nobody is above suspicion, and that is how they must be. That is what makes them the Emperor's Inquisition and not just the secret police of whatever power-hungry donkey-cave has seized control of the Imperium this week. Malcador knew what he was doing when he set them up that way. Individual inquisitors might be corrupted, but the Inquisition as a whole can never be subverted. Can you imagine how much worse Vandire's rule of the Imperium would have been if he'd had the entire Inquisition at his beck and call? Guilliman being unable to get every single Inquisitor to do what he wants is the price you pay for people like Vandire not having been able to do that either.

 Duskweaver wrote:
The Inquisition is prevented from falling under Guilliman's control by the same rules that prevented them from falling under Goge Vandire's control. And they have no reason to believe Guilliman is any less corruptible than Horus was. The Inquisition knows that nobody is above suspicion, and that is how they must be. That is what makes them the Emperor's Inquisition and not just the secret police of whatever power-hungry donkey-cave has seized control of the Imperium this week. Malcador knew what he was doing when he set them up that way. Individual inquisitors might be corrupted, but the Inquisition as a whole can never be subverted. Can you imagine how much worse Vandire's rule of the Imperium would have been if he'd had the entire Inquisition at his beck and call? Guilliman being unable to get every single Inquisitor to do what he wants is the price you pay for people like Vandire not having been able to do that either.

Ummmmm its not like there were all that many Inquisitors acting against Vandire either. But also the problems of a bunch if people with absolute power and litterally no oversight far outweigh the benefits. The Inquistion was a dumb idea to begin with. Especially when there blatantly ignoring the Emperors edicts the one person there supposed to actually be at least theoretically beholden to. The emeporor DID give Guilliman power over the entire imperium including the Inquisition we know that much for a fact. If there ignoring the emeperor himself then they ARE rogue.

chimera0205 wrote:
The emeporor DID give Guilliman power over the entire imperium including the Inquisition we know that much for a fact.

And that's the problem - we, the audience, know that, but not everyone does within the universe itself. Sure, Guilliman and the Custodes can declare and claim that they have the Emperor's explicit blessing (which is more valid than any Inquisitorial rosette), but they can't prove it beyond "trust us, the Emperor said so" to the other people in that universe.

Of course, there's a whole host of things that should otherwise prove Guilliman's authority (Celestine, the Legion of the Damned, Bjorn, Cawl, any Custodian) but there is no way for anyone in-universe to know what we do.

chimera0205 wrote:

Ummmmm its not like there were all that many Inquisitors acting against Vandire either.

Because the branch of the Inquisition that dealt with that particular flavor of lunatic rebellion wasn't formed until after Vandire, as a direct response to his action. Their charge is to be exceptionally suspicious of all those in power. Guilliman falls into that category more than anyone else before him.

chimera0205 wrote:

But also the problems of a bunch if people with absolute power and litterally no oversight far outweigh the benefits.

Congratulations, you've grasped one of the foundational flaws of an authoritarian state.

chimera0205 wrote:

The Inquistion was a dumb idea to begin with. Especially when there blatantly ignoring the Emperors edicts the one person there supposed to actually be at least theoretically beholden to. The emeporor DID give Guilliman power over the entire imperium including the Inquisition we know that much for a fact. If there ignoring the emeperor himself then they ARE rogue.

No, they're not. They're fulfilling their mandate to protect the Imperium by executing their responsibility to police those in power. Thats the beauty of silent deities communicating through intermediaries. Everybody gets to be right, and on the side of their God.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
The emeporor DID give Guilliman power over the entire imperium including the Inquisition we know that much for a fact.

And that's the problem - we, the audience, know that, but not everyone does within the universe itself. Sure, Guilliman and the Custodes can declare and claim that they have the Emperor's explicit blessing (which is more valid than any Inquisitorial rosette), but they can't prove it beyond "trust us, the Emperor said so" to the other people in that universe.

Of course, there's a whole host of things that should otherwise prove Guilliman's authority (Celestine, the Legion of the Damned, Bjorn, Cawl, any Custodian) but there is no way for anyone in-universe to know what we do.

And that is why Inquisitors who have any sense tend to carry out investigations (hence go on epic adventures) before taking action. And even the most hot headed Inquisitors aren't stupid enough to make a move against a Primarch. Double for one of Guilliman's stature. The best the Ordo Hereticus can do is wage a war of obstructionism against Papa Smurf's policies they are not keen on for whatever reason

The above discussion also illustrates why Guilliman has not moved against the Eclesiarchy. With so many competing power blocks within the Imperium (many of which are not delighted by his actions), keeping the Church on side is vital. Having religous backing (as well as military authority) in a society as superstitous as the Imperium has become is vital for him to get anything done.

Guilliman has also seemingly spent much of his time running around playing "whack a mole" with one threat or another, rather than sitting down to do administrative reforms, even though that may be what is ultimately needed and where his real strength lies. When he is present, he might be able to steamroll through some more efficient immediate functioning, but without long term reform, it is all too easy for things to fall back to the way things were as soon as he goes elsewhere.

While it is easy to dismiss the obstructionists as deluded or corrupt, that is far too simplistic a view. Many of them see themselves as serving the Imperium in their own roles even if Guilliman or outside readers might view their administrative jobs as meaningless or counterproductive. If Guilliman tries to streamline the bureaucracy by eliminating whole departments that have existed for centuries or millennia, then that will be many workers out of a job and with no means of sustenance. Such disaffected people are ripe for becoming rebellious. Sure, you say, just find new jobs for them. That takes time and possibly retraining, but that is difficult to push through with the Imperium pretty much a massive machine set on autopilot and resisting any attempts to change course. Guilliman probably could do it given enough time, but it is hard for him to find the time to sit down and do that when yet another new invasion pops up before he's even fully finished with the last one.

You have to remember that for most of his post-resurrection rule, Guilliman has had to take part in major military operations like the Indomitus Crusade and the Plague Wars. He can't simply sit back all day and go through the Imperial bureaucracy with a fine-tooth comb.