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I would LOVE the idea of linking all the Combat Doctrines together to make the whole idea of SM tactics hold a bit more water and give SM a bit more synergy and cohesion.

Your scouts and recon mark the targets for the Devastators, the Devastators disrupt enemy fire for the Tacticals, the Tacticals set the stage up for the Assaults. So while perhaps the bonuses are significant, they're contingent on taking a balanced army, and you're not just spamming heavy support units in your gun castle.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
This is seriously underselling the issue. Most subsets of Marines have been doing exceptionally well in most tournaments. A couple of the supplements have already necessitated emergency balance fixes from GW, which have helped matters but don't seem to have brought Iron Hands into line (jury still out on Salamanders).

It's not just the case that one faction did kind of well for a bit because people hadn't figured out how to play against them yet.

Right, but that has to be the ONLY faction you take in your army, right?

Sub-Sub-Faction but yes

Yoyoyo wrote:
I would LOVE the idea of linking all the Combat Doctrines together to make the whole idea of SM tactics hold a bit more water and give SM a bit more synergy and cohesion.

Your scouts and recon mark the targets for the Devastators, the Devastators disrupt enemy fire for the Tacticals, the Tacticals set the stage up for the Assaults. So while perhaps the bonuses are significant, they're contingent on taking a balanced army, and you're not just spamming heavy support units in your gun castle.

Sounds good - needs doing for ALL factions

I have had no time to play anything for a long while,
but finally made it into the local GeeDubya for a quick 500pts with a local kid who, along with the manager, led me through the game. (I had played 8th before, a couple of years ago, one time... and had read the book and so many batreps on da tube and so on... so I knew what to expect more or less, but little things kept popping up contrary to old established expectations and this was the big thing, just changing old habits...).

I took an inquisitor and 500points of guard including scions devil dog chimera. It was a battalion but we played without command points and I didn't use any of the special rules for my units besides the arial deployment for the stormtroopers and the digital weapons on the Inquisitor.

The kid brought rievers and marines with devastators and snipers, all infantry. He used the rievers special rules - 4 attacks each in cc after they get charged? Wild, but ok... knives offered no AP modifier but they were able to get out of combat by jumping over one of the big shipping containers. Sort of harlequin level shift but whatevs, nu-marines out-Tau the tau, out-Dar the Dar, and out-Ork the Ork... I get it.

We played on a table section 2 feet wide and 4 feet across with lots of pretty GW ruined city stuff and cargo boxes.

The rievers were tough, and made some trouble, but the worst thing about the game for me was bolters stripping 8 wounds from a chimera, and shooting through enemy units even when line of sight cannot be drawn without crossing enemy bases... even though this was impossible, LoS was still affirmed which made no sense ... these are problems with core game mechanics that only favor bolt weapons and standard rifles at distance, e.g. intercessors I would guess. In other words, the core game rules make the standard nu-marine loadout especially effective. So, the kid didn't bring any of the stuff that could really take advantage of these core rules, e.g. intercessors.

Next time, he said that he would bring his aggressors and dreadnoughts and 30" rifles and so on, but why didn't he bring that stuff today?

He told me that it would be no fun.

As it was, I was able to win the game - it was simple, one objective. Focused firepower, denying him line of sight, this made a big difference.

And, I am looking forward to doing it again when he brings more nu-marines.

BUT, as a result, instead of buying more 40k stuff with my store credits (gift certificates) I asked the manager to order me Necromunda instead.

The rules are ... OK, I guess, some of them, but others are just just unwieldly unrealistic arbitrary magic nasty garbage that wrecks the whole thing, destroys the immersion, and in general makes me less interested.

For instance, when his bolters nearly one-turned the chimera I said that I wouldn't be playing 8th again. Then, when he started shooting through my infantry unit's model bases, claiming line of sight, I said the same thing... Then characters can snipe characters with storm bolters??? (wtf? seriously, what the actual duck is that all about criminey that is terrible rules wow... just nasty yuck OMG but this is beside the point).

As a result, I take the game less seriously, because as a game it is less serious - it is clearly a marketing vehicle for cards and poorly compiled books in support of nu-models, the flavor of the day is some stripe of nu-marine.

And in this context I understand why the kid said that the game would have been no fun with more Primaris units on his side of the field. I can only imagine that 2 wound re-roll masterbuffed nu-marines blowing up tanks from 30inches with rifles and nu-marine characters sniping characters from 30 inches with rifles and ... re-rolling everything with double shooting rapid fire regardless of range and... wow.

Long story short, it seems that the entire rules system was written in order to make room for OP nu-model marketing OP billshift.

So, I bought Necromunda. One game, one box, and I am done sending GW money for 40K books until they fix this dumpster fire.

Now, the young man and I have already made a promise to play again, give him a chance to show off all of his shiny nu-toys, and I will update this opinion on this thread at that time, but...

the guy didn't bring his Primaris stuff because he knows that they are OP relative the stormtroopers that I was bringing. Nuff said, that, no?

Ok, we all know that marines right now are a tad too much. Numbers and personal experiences tell us that much.

That said, your narration doesn't exactly get that point across.

So, let me recap what you just said. You played what is really interesting yet quite ineffective list against a marine list which didn't hold back in the slightest (10 intercessor squad + chapter master at 500 points).

You didn't use the special rules of your models and didn't use your command points, while he clearly did (shock assault, bolter doctrine, double shooting rapid fire intercessors, getting out of combat, nominating a chapter master, most likely combat doctrines or he wouldn't be able to put 8 wounds on a chimera even with 40 rerolled shots, and so on).

You played a scenario which gives the advantage to him (single objective in the center, a wet dream for marines).

Yet you won...

One thought is that if marines are even just 5% better, maybe 20% of players will switch to them, which will include the most WAAC players who are willing to play the most nasty lists.

Perhaps marines are slightly better, but this attracts the sort of people to make every other possible marginal gain too, so it is not the list itself which is completely OTT, but the players who are attracted to marines who are completely OTT.

Btw, with this marine update, I can only imagine every other codex is going to follow suit soon. With the rumours of 9th edition coming as well from several different rumour guys, this marine book is probably intended to work with 9th and the other books will come along when 9th drops or whatever. It’s the usual cycle of scale creep. If the other factions don’t end up getting books, or they aren’t as interesting or good, then we can complain.

Also, I quite like 8th edition. I think the only things that’s hurt the game for me are how CP’s are handled, and also just how quickly things die. It’s a real shame when you roll the dice to see who goes first and know that if you go second, that swish tank you painted for hours isn’t going to be on the board when you get your turn.

 Fifty wrote:
One thought is that if marines are even just 5% better, maybe 20% of players will switch to them, which will include the most WAAC players who are willing to play the most nasty lists.

Perhaps marines are slightly better, but this attracts the sort of people to make every other possible marginal gain too, so it is not the list itself which is completely OTT, but the players who are attracted to marines who are completely OTT.

There is probably an element of truth to this, I'm not overly familiar with who the top 100 players are but I'd be curious how many of them play marines atm.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Btw, with this marine update, I can only imagine every other codex is going to follow suit soon. With the rumours of 9th edition coming as well from several different rumour guys, this marine book is probably intended to work with 9th and the other books will come along when 9th drops or whatever. It’s the usual cycle of scale creep. If the other factions don’t end up getting books, or they aren’t as interesting or good, then we can complain.

Also, I quite like 8th edition. I think the only things that’s hurt the game for me are how CP’s are handled, and also just how quickly things die. It’s a real shame when you roll the dice to see who goes first and know that if you go second, that swish tank you painted for hours isn’t going to be on the board when you get your turn.

The wait and see approach to GW is a fruitless exercise. They have shown time and time again that they often don't really have a vision for the game or a level at which codexs are to be balanced, codexs are balanced at the whims of the writer and how much that writer cares about the faction. Remember when in 7th everyone thought that the Ork and Chaos codexs were going to be the new standard? Then Necrons happened and that jump in power is much like what we are experiencing now with Marines.

I am sure that GW will be slow to respond but eventually address this by updating some poor army with a "Balanced" codex that leaves them boring and flavorless but not address the SM codex/indexs for a few years.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Btw, with this marine update, I can only imagine every other codex is going to follow suit soon. With the rumours of 9th edition coming as well from several different rumour guys, this marine book is probably intended to work with 9th and the other books will come along when 9th drops or whatever. It’s the usual cycle of scale creep. If the other factions don’t end up getting books, or they aren’t as interesting or good, then we can complain..

How long do we wait - simply compare what Marines got in their Codex and PA2 to what the Elda got in PA 1

PA3 is likely more of the same - Big Blood Angels supplement, More boosts for generic Marines and little of nothing for the Tyranids (or indeed the other combatants)

 jeff white wrote:
the worst thing about the game for me was bolters stripping 8 wounds from a chimera

If Bolters couldn't strip 8 wounds from a Chimera in this edition, you'd really be in trouble in your first game facing 5 Knights!

 Galas wrote:

Even outside power combos, lists, etc... is insane how good the basic intercessor has become.
I mean, I love intercessors, they have great models, they feel rather powerfull on the table, etc...

Which is curious, because Intercessors are not largely more durable than before, so, it's just the damage they do. And the damage they do isn't largely increased immediately aside from Stalkers.

I don't think it's Intercessors, but Stalkers and just a subset of those within Iron Hands. People aren't otherwise running a ton of Intercessors. Its cents, flyers, stalkers, and TFCs. At least lat I was looking.

8 wounds off a chimera with bolters? That seems improbable

Spoletta wrote:
Ok, we all know that marines right now are a tad too much. Numbers and personal experiences tell us that much.

That said, your narration doesn't exactly get that point across.

So, let me recap what you just said. You played what is really interesting yet quite ineffective list against a marine list which didn't hold back in the slightest (10 intercessor squad + chapter master at 500 points).

You didn't use the special rules of your models and didn't use your command points, while he clearly did (shock assault, bolter doctrine, double shooting rapid fire intercessors, getting out of combat, nominating a chapter master, most likely combat doctrines or he wouldn't be able to put 8 wounds on a chimera even with 40 rerolled shots, and so on).

You played a scenario which gives the advantage to him (single objective in the center, a wet dream for marines).

Yet you won...

No. You read wrong.
He didnt use CP or other stuff.
He brought mostly old marines specifically stuff that doesnt move well like devs and snipers.
He has only played 8th. One year. I have been in the hobby for 35 years. In 40k since 1991.
We used almost no special combo buff biltshift rules ... neither he now i. Next time we will add complexity.
And yes i won the game but... i should have won.

As for the rest... i am not able to trouble shoot his use of special stuff but... i trust that he played fairly as well as he was able. Neither of us used CP or doctrines or any other ...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
the worst thing about the game for me was bolters stripping 8 wounds from a chimera

If Bolters couldn't strip 8 wounds from a Chimera in this edition, you'd really be in trouble in your first game facing 5 Knights!

So why should knights be considered standard scale in a game with bolters the standard weapon?

Just another reason to say wtf to the games designers or rather the marketing priffs who cuck the designers on meeting days...

 Fifty wrote:
One thought is that if marines are even just 5% better, maybe 20% of players will switch to them, which will include the most WAAC players who are willing to play the most nasty lists.

Perhaps marines are slightly better, but this attracts the sort of people to make every other possible marginal gain too, so it is not the list itself which is completely OTT, but the players who are attracted to marines who are completely OTT.

I don't buy this. We have a rough idea of what percentage of tournament players will take the best list with Ynarri numbers. At their peak they were 6% or 7% of the player base and the lists getting played were almost identical.

In comparison marines make up 25% of the meta and have a massive variety of extremely successful builds.

 fraser1191 wrote:
8 wounds off a chimera with bolters? That seems improbable

With chapter master rerolls and -2 bolt rifles I can see it happening

8 wounds definitely wouldn't be the statistical average with ~10 intercessors shooting at a chimera, but it's not "improbable"

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
One thought is that if marines are even just 5% better, maybe 20% of players will switch to them, which will include the most WAAC players who are willing to play the most nasty lists.

Perhaps marines are slightly better, but this attracts the sort of people to make every other possible marginal gain too, so it is not the list itself which is completely OTT, but the players who are attracted to marines who are completely OTT.

I don't buy this. We have a rough idea of what percentage of tournament players will take the best list with Ynarri numbers. At their peak they were 6% or 7% of the player base and the lists getting played were almost identical.

In comparison marines make up 25% of the meta and have a massive variety of extremely successful builds.

Out of curiosity at the height of castellan meta, how many people were band wagoning the castellan/ig/ba combos? I feel like it was more than the number of ynnari players.

there are more imperial players, I think, then eldar ones, so of course armies with castellans would be more popular then Inari lists, that were only played by eldar players.

Karol wrote:
there are more imperial players, I think, then eldar ones, so of course armies with castellans would be more popular then Inari lists, that were only played by eldar players.

So logically its fair to assume more marine players hence higher turn out of competitive marine lists?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Even outside power combos, lists, etc... is insane how good the basic intercessor has become.
I mean, I love intercessors, they have great models, they feel rather powerfull on the table, etc...

Which is curious, because Intercessors are not largely more durable than before, so, it's just the damage they do. And the damage they do isn't largely increased immediately aside from Stalkers.

I don't think it's Intercessors, but Stalkers and just a subset of those within Iron Hands. People aren't otherwise running a ton of Intercessors. Its cents, flyers, stalkers, and TFCs. At least lat I was looking.

I don't know. As a Dark Angel having units of 5 intercessors in cover everywhere natively rerolling 1's popping out 2 shoots a piece at 30" feels really, really great.

Dudeface wrote:

Karol wrote:
there are more imperial players, I think, then eldar ones, so of course armies with castellans would be more popular then Inari lists, that were only played by eldar players.

So logically its fair to assume more marine players hence higher turn out of competitive marine lists?

I am not sure about compatitive, as I never attended any big tournaments, but even if tournaments have half the imperial numbers stores have it still should be around 40-50% of all people playing.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
8 wounds off a chimera with bolters? That seems improbable

With chapter master rerolls and -2 bolt rifles I can see it happening

8 wounds definitely wouldn't be the statistical average with ~10 intercessors shooting at a chimera, but it's not "improbable"

Thing is that the young man brought no intercessors.
This was after two small squads of maybe 5 each including nobs with plasma pistols
and a heavy flamer in there which was out of range.

All I remember really is that the bolters did most of the work, I wanna say 6 wounds right away.
Some lucky dice, whatever, but... I won't watch Saving Private Ryan ever again (by choice) and the futility of such an enterprise is one of the many good reasons for this disposition. Should not be a winning strategy, in anyone's mind, ever.
Just, contrary to common sense.

Next time, he said that he will use his heavy hitters.
He's just starting out, computer science guy, patient. Comes in prepared. Was super informative.
Frankly, I played second, third, 4th, got interested again in 7th, anticipated 8th as a new 2nd...
GW failed to anticipate the buying power of
the old 'before I die I want to build an effin Thunderhawk' syndrome.

I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)

Until then it's playing on hard for everyone

I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..

 Argive wrote:
I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)

Until then it's playing on hard for everyone

I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..

Next time when the kid brings primaris I should take 500points of oldmarines and see what happens.
Saturday night. Making a list right now!

 Argive wrote:
I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)

Until then it's playing on hard for everyone

I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..

If thats the case - why were they not in PA1. That might have been a better selling point.....

Sisters has some good stuff - It does not have doctrines at anything like the same level.

Do you think any Sept, Cult, Kabal, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Regiment etc will get a supplement?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)

Until then it's playing on hard for everyone

I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..

If thats the case - why were they not in PA1. That might have been a better selling point.....

Sisters has some good stuff - It does not have doctrines at anything like the same level.

Do you think any Sept, Cult, Kabal, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Regiment etc will get a supplement?

No and I don't want them to. Making a mistake for one faction doesn't mean they should do it for all of them.

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)

Until then it's playing on hard for everyone

I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..

If thats the case - why were they not in PA1. That might have been a better selling point.....

Sisters has some good stuff - It does not have doctrines at anything like the same level.

Do you think any Sept, Cult, Kabal, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Regiment etc will get a supplement?

No and I don't want them to. Making a mistake for one faction doesn't mean they should do it for all of them.

Disagree - I actually enjoyed reading the lore elements of these.

So you are in favour of getting rid of the Marine Supplement rules as well?

 Mr Morden wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)

Until then it's playing on hard for everyone

I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..

If thats the case - why were they not in PA1. That might have been a better selling point.....

Sisters has some good stuff - It does not have doctrines at anything like the same level.

Do you think any Sept, Cult, Kabal, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Regiment etc will get a supplement?

No and I don't want them to. Making a mistake for one faction doesn't mean they should do it for all of them.

Disagree - I actually enjoyed reading the lore elements of these.

So you are in favour of getting rid of the Marine Supplement rules as well?

What's done is done, they need refining rather than removing, get them to a more balanced place so they become fair rather than overbearing.

You can have lore without rules, there's nothing wrong or stopping a faction fluff book and I'd quite welcome that.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
8 wounds off a chimera with bolters? That seems improbable

With chapter master rerolls and -2 bolt rifles I can see it happening

8 wounds definitely wouldn't be the statistical average with ~10 intercessors shooting at a chimera, but it's not "improbable"

True it is a dice game after all. One time a GK wounded my friends kabalite and got 3D for the force weapon. He said "well he's dead" I told him to roll the dice anyway and he got 3 6s for his fnp. Very improbable but not impossible

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)

Until then it's playing on hard for everyone

I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..

If thats the case - why were they not in PA1. That might have been a better selling point.....

Sisters has some good stuff - It does not have doctrines at anything like the same level.

Do you think any Sept, Cult, Kabal, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Regiment etc will get a supplement?

I disagree. It has a mechanic which rewards you for not souping and buffs your entire army on top of traits. Its a doctrine.. Just called whatever as well as sisters miracle stuff which is basically the super doctrine equivalent... Sisters have always been the odd one out with their rules/mechanics so they are not the best example but follow a very similair format.
Im not painting SOB to be some sort of new OP hotness or be on par with the silliness that is SM supplements.

What I am saying this is the next wave of codexes which rewards you for having pure armies by having army wide buffs on top of traits for your Klans/craftworlds etc....will be is very very very similiar to doctrines. Just called something else.

So although new codexes are unlikely to get SM doctrines/superdoctrines clones and maybe not get supplements I believe this is the new trend for codexes.
Obviously this is speculation but it seems pretty obvious to me thats the direction, I'm no wizard I cant tell the future obviously.. But can you imagine new dexes NOT going this route? The power creep is real.
Thats my reasoning and only time will tell but I honestly feel like after SM dominating for the next xx months the next thing is going to have to be even more obnoxious lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)

Until then it's playing on hard for everyone

I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..

If thats the case - why were they not in PA1. That might have been a better selling point.....

Sisters has some good stuff - It does not have doctrines at anything like the same level.

Do you think any Sept, Cult, Kabal, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Regiment etc will get a supplement?

No and I don't want them to. Making a mistake for one faction doesn't mean they should do it for all of them.

Disagree - I actually enjoyed reading the lore elements of these.

So you are in favour of getting rid of the Marine Supplement rules as well?

What's done is done, they need refining rather than removing, get them to a more balanced place so they become fair rather than overbearing.

You can have lore without rules, there's nothing wrong or stopping a faction fluff book and I'd quite welcome that.

Ohh yeah we need to ensure nobody else gets new toys while SM get to keep their... Because XX months of dominating will never be enough.

But there we have it

Sisters are the next thing - if they are not as OP as Marines then that sets the tone for any other other non Marine codexs along with the latest PA campaign book

Which of course added new stuff to..........Marines.