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Sisters are the next thing - if they are not as OP as Marines then that sets the tone for any other other non Marine codexs along with the latest PA campaign book
Which of course added new stuff to..........Marines.
Let's hope the BT supplement with a sprinkle of chaos i mean PA2 is the end of it... As I was typing I literally remembered the next one is BAs... Ohh well.. gues it will be more generic SM buffs just because.
Well let's hope once BA is done its over.. I know there's still SW/GK/DA/DW... but maybe.. just maybe.. that'll be it.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
We could remove around half the Strats and the Super Doctrines. That would be a start.
yeah, i am not looking forward to learning the card game on top of the dice game on top of the list deck building game on top of the table.
just, a decent wargame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/23 21:04:46
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2019/11/23 21:20:56
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Argive wrote: I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)
Until then it's playing on hard for everyone
I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..
If thats the case - why were they not in PA1. That might have been a better selling point.....
Sisters has some good stuff - It does not have doctrines at anything like the same level.
Do you think any Sept, Cult, Kabal, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Regiment etc will get a supplement?
I disagree. It has a mechanic which rewards you for not souping and buffs your entire army on top of traits. Its a doctrine.. Just called whatever as well as sisters miracle stuff which is basically the super doctrine equivalent... Sisters have always been the odd one out with their rules/mechanics so they are not the best example but follow a very similair format.
Im not painting SOB to be some sort of new OP hotness or be on par with the silliness that is SM supplements.
What I am saying this is the next wave of codexes which rewards you for having pure armies by having army wide buffs on top of traits for your Klans/craftworlds etc....will be is very very very similiar to doctrines. Just called something else.
So although new codexes are unlikely to get SM doctrines/superdoctrines clones and maybe not get supplements I believe this is the new trend for codexes.
Obviously this is speculation but it seems pretty obvious to me thats the direction, I'm no wizard I cant tell the future obviously.. But can you imagine new dexes NOT going this route? The power creep is real.
Thats my reasoning and only time will tell but I honestly feel like after SM dominating for the next xx months the next thing is going to have to be even more obnoxious lol.
Argive wrote: I'm calling it now. If you think SM are broken wait until new doctrines Eldar codex...(and other codexes)
Until then it's playing on hard for everyone
I say this is based on sisters codex which has doctrines sooooo it seems thats the direction we are goin..
If thats the case - why were they not in PA1. That might have been a better selling point.....
Sisters has some good stuff - It does not have doctrines at anything like the same level.
Do you think any Sept, Cult, Kabal, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Regiment etc will get a supplement?
No and I don't want them to. Making a mistake for one faction doesn't mean they should do it for all of them.
Disagree - I actually enjoyed reading the lore elements of these.
So you are in favour of getting rid of the Marine Supplement rules as well?
What's done is done, they need refining rather than removing, get them to a more balanced place so they become fair rather than overbearing.
You can have lore without rules, there's nothing wrong or stopping a faction fluff book and I'd quite welcome that.
Ohh yeah we need to ensure nobody else gets new toys while SM get to keep their... Because XX months of dominating will never be enough.
Yes, they get to keep the books that already published and available for purchase because nobody is going to tear their books up for them. I said it was worth dialing back the doctrines, get them lowered to everyone else's level, you can't undo what has been done and they have 6 supplement books and that won't change now.
Having more books =/= dominating everyone if they're set to the right tone. It's already abundantly clear that marines are the odd ones out and were given too much. Rather than bloating every faction with needless rules and making the last updated book under powered while they wait, just reduce marines power levels.
2019/11/23 22:02:42
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
In other news; some factions have suffered greatly in terms of their competitive viability since Marines rose to prominence. Those factions are (in no particular order);
GSC
I think in the GSC's case it is less marines specifically and more the FAQ ruling that the infiltrators tactical scrambler overrides the ambush modification stratagems. Most competitive GSC lists rely on said stratagems to deliver threats safely and that ruling basically renders it impossible until all of the infiltrators have been killed off (which is admittedly not too tall an order for most lists, but an ambush heavy list generally doesn't have much in the way of fire support).
2019/11/23 23:29:58
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Spoletta wrote: Ok, we all know that marines right now are a tad too much. Numbers and personal experiences tell us that much.
That said, your narration doesn't exactly get that point across.
So, let me recap what you just said. You played what is really interesting yet quite ineffective list against a marine list which didn't hold back in the slightest (10 intercessor squad + chapter master at 500 points).
You didn't use the special rules of your models and didn't use your command points, while he clearly did (shock assault, bolter doctrine, double shooting rapid fire intercessors, getting out of combat, nominating a chapter master, most likely combat doctrines or he wouldn't be able to put 8 wounds on a chimera even with 40 rerolled shots, and so on).
You played a scenario which gives the advantage to him (single objective in the center, a wet dream for marines).
Yet you won...
The other poster isn't saying that Marines are unbeatable. They're complaining that the game mechanics of both 8th and the new SM book sacrifice immersion/verisimilitude in favor of abstract, overtly game-y design, and that their victory was in part due to the opponent deliberately taking weaker units.
I doubt they'll have a better experience with using stratagems, to be honest. Not only are the Guard stratagems borderline useless compared to the SM ones, but they also represent the epitome of CCG-esque gameplay, which is what jeff white seems to dislike.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/23 23:33:14
I don't know. As a Dark Angel having units of 5 intercessors in cover everywhere natively rerolling 1's popping out 2 shoots a piece at 30" feels really, really great.
Sure, but all of that was available before the supplements sans the reroll 1s.
2019/11/23 23:47:55
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Definitely knights for me.
Marine lists tend to be more balanced in terms of units taken so require a range of weapons to take down making a take all comers list the optimal choice.
Knights require a load of anti tank making skew lists better.
I'd rather have take all comers lists be the standard rather than lists that makes any heavy armour lists that aren't knights subpar.
2019/11/24 02:10:15
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Marine lists being more varied is one of the things that makes me think the Marine meta is worse. The different chapters are all going to be bringing very different units and that makes it considerably harder to prepare for.
2019/11/24 02:26:17
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Burnage wrote: Marine lists being more varied is one of the things that makes me think the Marine meta is worse. The different chapters are all going to be bringing very different units and that makes it considerably harder to prepare for.
They don't have anything that is skew heavy like knights. If you can kill marines and you can kill flyers and tanks then you're covered. And most often it's centurions right now, anyway.
ChargerIIC wrote: Normally NuMarines are a codeword for Primaris marines. Assuming that, Primaris marines aren't broken.They cost a ton of points and require multiple buffs to work correctly. They suffer from the marine statline problem, with players paying points to survive in melee but not to excel in it and still paying points for an only ok shooting model.
Strangely, oldMarines are doing better since they pay less points for the marine statline, but the single wound problem makes lists using them as risky as hell.
The new codex is a power boost, but the presence of sapce marines in tournament lists is for the eternal reason of 40k. Every player owns a marine list and they all bring them out when there are new marine goodies to try out.
They don't require much, having units that give them buffs is a competitive option, but running MSU Intercessors without everyone having buffs all the time is pretty strong as well. They don't just survive in melee any longer, with 3 attacks in the first round of combat they can win against most units with the exception of Orks and elite melee units that don't have as much shooting as Intercessors. Assault Centurions have great shooting and great melee and pay for it with bad mobility, but that mobility can be boosted through various options. Saying they are merely ok in shooting is false, shooting two AP-2 shots at 30" is great for 17 pts. OldMarines are in no way doing better, I don't know what you are smoking.
Who has 2-3 Repulsor Executioners, 2 TFCs and 3 Tactical Warsuits lying around? No, Marines are popular because they are broken.
30" guns on standard infantry break the meta for mid-range shooting. That extra 6" allows them to kite MEQ and TEQ. Tactical Doctrine amplifies this effect, you can kind of get an extra turn of shooting with them.
They are too pts efficient because of the free rules.
The 30" guns weren't a problem when they were 7 pts more than a Tactical Squad, now they are only 5 pts more and they are busted, all the efficient options just need to go up 1-3 pts.
Vaktathi wrote: Something to think of on top of just the raw power levels here is how many new rules and interactions these supplements bring to the table, that everyone has to keep track of and analyze. In 4E/5E, I had pretty much every codex and FW book memorized, I could look at any model and tell you what every piece of WYSIWYG wargear did on it. I could tell you every army's special rules and know every statline and how all the different army's unique mechanics functioned.
At this point? You need about as much mental space dedicated to just the "codex adherent" Space Marine armies in 8E as you did the whole game in earlier editions, particularly given the length of interaction chains that abilities work from now (e.g. the new mono-army mechanics dictating use of new chapter trait abilities). What started relatively cleanly at the start of 8E has rapidly devolved back into adding gobs of power-ramping complexity portray "character" without adding much of anything to tabletop tactical depth, that makes it very hard to keep track of and remember everything even for relatively dedicated players.
“More complexity. Less depth.”
This is the 8th edition design mantra.
The core rules for 8th are much shorter and simpler than those for 5th-7th, on the other hand, they give the player much more agency and removes most of the artificial unintelligence from the game. You will not be forced to move towards the end of the table when you flee, 8th also allows you to take captives and do bad touch tactics in melee instead of forcing you to just blob up and brace for templates. Weapons are less black and white so it's often unclear exactly how to dedicate firepower, the ability to split fire also opens the possibility for under committing and maximizing damage by split-firing.
If GW moved Chapter Tactics and Combat Doctrines to non-Matched Play and limited the number of Stratagems people can bring with their list to 10 + any number of Specialist Detachments and nerf soup and the game is once again pretty simple and mostly about tactics on the table. The balance was excellent prior to the release of SM, we're talking perfect balance with CA19 if they at the same time updated and balanced Relics, WL traits and Stratagems. It has to be obvious that it's not fair that one faction pays the same amount of pts for a unit with heavy weapons as another faction when one cannot lose more than one model from a Morale test and can re-roll 1s when they don't move while the other gets re-roll 1s all the time as well as ignoring the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, -1 AP on those heavy weapons, 5+ OW and 6+ FNP. If it only came down to one faction having more synergistic Stratagems, Relics and WL traits that support them then it'd be a lot more balanced between those two units. Balanced games are more fun most of the time, almost nobody likes playing 1000 pts vs 2000 pts, even just an army that is overly efficient so it's worth 2300 pts vs an army that is less overly efficient and worth 2100 is a bit iffy, but then when that 2300 pt army counters your 2100 pt army or gets to go first on a table that isn't heavy with terrain it hurts an absolute tonne to play against.
But there are a lot of OP units and combos for other armies, even GK have GMNDKs, DA have plasma castle, Nids have hypersonic Genestealers etc. etc. I'd like to see every army nerfed in some capacity, because how are you going to make a relic that does a MW on a 6+ once per game to a unit for every model within 8" of the bearer with a relic that targets an enemy unit and lets friendly units within 6" re-roll hits and wounds against that target? Make it do MWs on 5+? 2+? What happens when you overly buff an item and you move the power curve up further? Now you need another full round of buffs to get things back into balance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/24 07:13:37
2019/11/24 08:06:26
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
I don't know. As a Dark Angel having units of 5 intercessors in cover everywhere natively rerolling 1's popping out 2 shoots a piece at 30" feels really, really great.
Sure, but all of that was available before the supplements sans the reroll 1s.
DAs reroll 1s if they stand still. That has been their chapter tactic since their codex dropped well before the supplements.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2019/11/24 08:55:53
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Darsath wrote: What meta is worse: The Space Marine meta, or the Imperial Knight meta?
Define 'worse'?
The knight meta had a greater variety of other lists that could go toe to toe with it so I'd say it was healthier for the game. The current SM meta is very skewed in that only SM lists are really performing well.
2019/11/24 09:21:39
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Ran a few test games today-4 games, 1000, 1250 x 2, and 1500. Didn't want to ramp it up to 2k because the 1500 point game took long enough and I don't like being a table-hog.
Played against Guard, Drukhari, Necrons, and Chaos. Deliberately had a couple of guys bring in their armies so I could go up against a variety. Both the players of these armies are pretty competitive, and have won tournaments. However, I specifically asked they bring competent lists but nothing overwhelming as I needed to test what I had. Basically, it's what we call "A shop list" -Something to take the FLGS and play against generally any type of player without destroying them with too much ease but powerful enough to bring quite a bit of pain.
I brought pretty much everything I have for my Chapter (homebrew, testing a few different tactics), and mainly because I haven't played any Marines other than Deathwatch for a couple of years and I wanted to see how much better it was.
I certainly didn't put all of these in a list, and I don't have my lists handy- but here's a rundown of the stuff I brought. I managed to each of these more than once.
-Intercessors, 5-man squad. Bolt Rifles, grenade launcher, chainsword on sarge.
I tried to get a wide variety while also scheming on what works together. My personal opinion:
-This is one hell of a boost, and it will certainly favor some space marine sub-factions over the others.
-This should cut down on soup lists.
-It didn't seem OP, and me and the other players reviewed the game and noted what could work better or worse.
-The doctrine are predictable, and if your opponent is aware of the cycles then they can mitigate them.
-I still lost half of the games. And didn't win by a massive margin.
My overall theory:
-Space Marines seemed to struggle for a long time to be competitive and I can say that this is for the most part, a step in the right direction... just a bit of an overstep at certain point.
-Also I see this kind of reaction for every updated army, and it lasts for a little while before people find a way to counter it. For way too long Primaris-only armies were a joke but now they can be quite competitive and some people can't stand the idea that the 'easiest to beat, do it all the time' armies can stand on its feet.
-Still needs a bit of fine-tuning, and I don't think people who by default hate space marines should have their opinions taken as a grain of salt.
Still needs a bit of fine-tuning, and I don't think people who by default hate space marines should have their opinions taken as a grain of salt.
"Sigh" yeah we all hate Marines - thats why I have various Marine armies
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Mr Morden wrote: "Sigh" yeah we all hate Marines - thats why I have various Marine armies
Did I mention you by name? Is there something there that made you believe that was directed at you? If you took offense, that's because you were looking for it.
Mr Morden wrote: "Sigh" yeah we all hate Marines - thats why I have various Marine armies
Did I mention you by name? Is there something there that made you believe that was directed at you? If you took offense, that's because you were looking for it.
Well who exactly were you refering to with this provactive statement?
I don't think people who by default hate space marines should have their opinions taken as a grain of salt.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Not an expert on communication or english, but the statment seems to be directed to people that by default dislike marines. Ergo anyone who dislikes marines by default should be the person offended by that. If someone does not dislike them by default, they shouldn't be getting angry about it, as they are not the target of the statement.
But I could be wrong.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/11/24 09:47:48
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Well who exactly were you refering to with this provactive statement?
I don't think people who by default hate space marines should have their opinions taken as a grain of salt.
Let me correct that (I'm a bit groggy).
I think people who by default hate space marines should have their opinions taken with a grain of salt.
Sorry about that, brain and typing hands didn't connect well.
For clarification, there's people who simply don't like Space Marines and they pretty much seem as if they want them to be the most basic, easy-to-beat army and would be satisfied if their only special rule was "lose game". I've encountered quite a bit of that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: Not an expert on communication or english, but the statment seems to be directed to people that by default dislike marines. Ergo anyone who dislikes marines by default should be the person offended by that. If someone does not dislike them by default, they shouldn't be getting angry about it, as they are not the target of the statement.
But I could be wrong.
You're right. I'm just now rousing myself from a bit of a rest after being on my feet and gaming all day. Started at 9 AM and stopped just after midnight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/24 09:48:59
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2019/11/24 15:26:38
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
It is an interesting thing to point out that the people in this thread who played against Marines or do play Marines themselves report what sounds like even games.
Or at least it does not sound as if Marines are winning by a mile against every other army, as you might come to expect, given statements like "they are broken and OP".
Could it be that the new rules are only/mostly a problem for top competitive tournament players?
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
2019/11/24 10:36:05
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
It's seeming like an extreme reaction to an additional -1 AP. That's really about all.
I'm pretty sure there's crazier things in the game at this time.
You see its statements like this that make people question how honest you are.
There are crazier things in the game at this time - its called the Iron Hands book. Or the Raven Guard book. Or even maybe the White Scars book etc etc.
2019/11/24 10:59:15
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Tyel wrote: You see its statements like this that make people question how honest you are.
Was there some meeting with all the people where this was addressed, or is it your opinion?
Personally, some random individual on the internet questioning my honesty over plastic war toys is about as traumatic to me as missing a Nickelback concert.
Tyel wrote: There are crazier things in the game at this time - its called the Iron Hands book. Or the Raven Guard book. Or even maybe the White Scars book etc etc.
You're having trouble with tanks and running a gunline, it seems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/24 11:00:59
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2019/11/24 13:12:18
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
a_typical_hero wrote: Could it be that the new rules are only/mostly a problem for top competitive tournament players?
It's seeming like an extreme reaction to an additional -1 AP. That's really about all.
I'm pretty sure there's crazier things in the game at this time.
I am more concerned about the constant, unrelenting tide of releases of Marine models rather than - well anything else.
In terms of Boosts - they also got a full 10 pages of brand new rules in PA2 - straight after the Codex and supplements - in fact there was only rules for some variety of Marines throughout and looks to be the same for the next half a dozen PA.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Ran a few test games today-4 games, 1000, 1250 x 2, and 1500. Didn't want to ramp it up to 2k because the 1500 point game took long enough and I don't like being a table-hog.
Played against Guard, Drukhari, Necrons, and Chaos. Deliberately had a couple of guys bring in their armies so I could go up against a variety. Both the players of these armies are pretty competitive, and have won tournaments. However, I specifically asked they bring competent lists but nothing overwhelming as I needed to test what I had. Basically, it's what we call "A shop list" -Something to take the FLGS and play against generally any type of player without destroying them with too much ease but powerful enough to bring quite a bit of pain.
I brought pretty much everything I have for my Chapter (homebrew, testing a few different tactics), and mainly because I haven't played any Marines other than Deathwatch for a couple of years and I wanted to see how much better it was.
I certainly didn't put all of these in a list, and I don't have my lists handy- but here's a rundown of the stuff I brought. I managed to each of these more than once.
-Intercessors, 5-man squad. Bolt Rifles, grenade launcher, chainsword on sarge.
I tried to get a wide variety while also scheming on what works together. My personal opinion:
-This is one hell of a boost, and it will certainly favor some space marine sub-factions over the others.
-This should cut down on soup lists.
-It didn't seem OP, and me and the other players reviewed the game and noted what could work better or worse.
-The doctrine are predictable, and if your opponent is aware of the cycles then they can mitigate them.
-I still lost half of the games. And didn't win by a massive margin.
My overall theory:
-Space Marines seemed to struggle for a long time to be competitive and I can say that this is for the most part, a step in the right direction... just a bit of an overstep at certain point.
-Also I see this kind of reaction for every updated army, and it lasts for a little while before people find a way to counter it. For way too long Primaris-only armies were a joke but now they can be quite competitive and some people can't stand the idea that the 'easiest to beat, do it all the time' armies can stand on its feet.
-Still needs a bit of fine-tuning, and I don't think people who by default hate space marines should have their opinions taken as a grain of salt.
So you didint use supplements rules?
You used a hodge podge of units up to 1500 points without taking into account things like efficiencies, redundancies, duality etc. Which is how one mormaly builds a list and just picked what you liked rather than what works.. i.e. only 5 interecessors rievers incursors etc
And yet you still won half the games?
In case its not obvious im highlighting the sample size and control of you experiment.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/24 13:50:29
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Ran a few test games today-4 games, 1000, 1250 x 2, and 1500. Didn't want to ramp it up to 2k because the 1500 point game took long enough and I don't like being a table-hog.
Played against Guard, Drukhari, Necrons, and Chaos. Deliberately had a couple of guys bring in their armies so I could go up against a variety. Both the players of these armies are pretty competitive, and have won tournaments. However, I specifically asked they bring competent lists but nothing overwhelming as I needed to test what I had. Basically, it's what we call "A shop list" -Something to take the FLGS and play against generally any type of player without destroying them with too much ease but powerful enough to bring quite a bit of pain.
I brought pretty much everything I have for my Chapter (homebrew, testing a few different tactics), and mainly because I haven't played any Marines other than Deathwatch for a couple of years and I wanted to see how much better it was.
I certainly didn't put all of these in a list, and I don't have my lists handy- but here's a rundown of the stuff I brought. I managed to each of these more than once.
-Intercessors, 5-man squad. Bolt Rifles, grenade launcher, chainsword on sarge.
I tried to get a wide variety while also scheming on what works together. My personal opinion:
-This is one hell of a boost, and it will certainly favor some space marine sub-factions over the others.
-This should cut down on soup lists.
-It didn't seem OP, and me and the other players reviewed the game and noted what could work better or worse.
-The doctrine are predictable, and if your opponent is aware of the cycles then they can mitigate them.
-I still lost half of the games. And didn't win by a massive margin.
My overall theory:
-Space Marines seemed to struggle for a long time to be competitive and I can say that this is for the most part, a step in the right direction... just a bit of an overstep at certain point.
-Also I see this kind of reaction for every updated army, and it lasts for a little while before people find a way to counter it. For way too long Primaris-only armies were a joke but now they can be quite competitive and some people can't stand the idea that the 'easiest to beat, do it all the time' armies can stand on its feet.
-Still needs a bit of fine-tuning, and I don't think people who by default hate space marines should have their opinions taken as a grain of salt.
So you didint use supplements rules?
You used a hodge podge of units up to 1500 points without taking into account things like efficiencies, redundancies, duality etc. Which is how one mormaly builds a list and just picked what you liked rather than what works.. i.e. only 5 interecessors rievers incursors etc
And yet you still won half the games?
In case its not obvious im highlighting the sample size and control of you experiment.
yeah but going by the torrent of threads like this one and the previous 30-40 episodes mostly consisting of an echo chamber of the same people raging hard then surely he should have won every single game as marines are omgopwtf and some of the armies he fought were "auto lose" choices.
Now outside of 40kGen and ITC rules the marines are powerful and in some cases very powerful but no worse than a number of armies that have come before without causing people to eat there own livers.
I mean if you go a couple of subsections up to the battle reports you can see the reality of the actual situation which is if you dont use house rules and play the actual game marines are much improved but still lose often especially if you play to the objectives but hey ho I expect another couple of dozen threads like this a week until 9th drops.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2019/11/24 14:40:32
Subject: The Nu-Marine are/aren't broken Megathread!
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Ran a few test games today-4 games, 1000, 1250 x 2, and 1500. Didn't want to ramp it up to 2k because the 1500 point game took long enough and I don't like being a table-hog.
Played against Guard, Drukhari, Necrons, and Chaos. Deliberately had a couple of guys bring in their armies so I could go up against a variety. Both the players of these armies are pretty competitive, and have won tournaments. However, I specifically asked they bring competent lists but nothing overwhelming as I needed to test what I had. Basically, it's what we call "A shop list" -Something to take the FLGS and play against generally any type of player without destroying them with too much ease but powerful enough to bring quite a bit of pain.
I brought pretty much everything I have for my Chapter (homebrew, testing a few different tactics), and mainly because I haven't played any Marines other than Deathwatch for a couple of years and I wanted to see how much better it was.
I certainly didn't put all of these in a list, and I don't have my lists handy- but here's a rundown of the stuff I brought. I managed to each of these more than once.
-Intercessors, 5-man squad. Bolt Rifles, grenade launcher, chainsword on sarge.
I tried to get a wide variety while also scheming on what works together. My personal opinion:
-This is one hell of a boost, and it will certainly favor some space marine sub-factions over the others.
-This should cut down on soup lists.
-It didn't seem OP, and me and the other players reviewed the game and noted what could work better or worse.
-The doctrine are predictable, and if your opponent is aware of the cycles then they can mitigate them.
-I still lost half of the games. And didn't win by a massive margin.
My overall theory:
-Space Marines seemed to struggle for a long time to be competitive and I can say that this is for the most part, a step in the right direction... just a bit of an overstep at certain point.
-Also I see this kind of reaction for every updated army, and it lasts for a little while before people find a way to counter it. For way too long Primaris-only armies were a joke but now they can be quite competitive and some people can't stand the idea that the 'easiest to beat, do it all the time' armies can stand on its feet.
-Still needs a bit of fine-tuning, and I don't think people who by default hate space marines should have their opinions taken as a grain of salt.
So you didint use supplements rules?
You used a hodge podge of units up to 1500 points without taking into account things like efficiencies, redundancies, duality etc. Which is how one mormaly builds a list and just picked what you liked rather than what works.. i.e. only 5 interecessors rievers incursors etc
And yet you still won half the games?
In case its not obvious im highlighting the sample size and control of you experiment.
yeah but going by the torrent of threads like this one and the previous 30-40 episodes mostly consisting of an echo chamber of the same people raging hard then surely he should have won every single game as marines are omgopwtf and some of the armies he fought were "auto lose" choices.
Now outside of 40kGen and ITC rules the marines are powerful and in some cases very powerful but no worse than a number of armies that have come before without causing people to eat there own livers.
I mean if you go a couple of subsections up to the battle reports you can see the reality of the actual situation which is if you dont use house rules and play the actual game marines are much improved but still lose often especially if you play to the objectives but hey ho I expect another couple of dozen threads like this a week until 9th drops.
Lets disagree on that one. I speak by experiance and bat reps ive seen. You are welcome to gak and spew venom on everyone who points out stacks and stacks of additional rules easily swing the power balance in the sm favour disproportionately. And its far far more prevailent than one or two builds "of what other got before".
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Eldar- 4436 pts
