Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Invuln saves are, most of the time, worse than armor saves.

Marines have a 3+ that can be boosted to a 2+ with cover. Requiring Melta or better to completely ignore.

Daemons have a 5++. Worse against AP0 or -1. Equal against AP-2. And only better against AP-3, or -4 in cover.

That’s why they eat to be more reliable.

Now, some people get to break that (2 point storm shields, for instance) but it’s generally there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Harlequins have that high a win rate? I thought it was just around 40% which I expect for an army with like 0 options.

45% mono. They are 57% otherwise. They basically just tack on as haywire delivery and that's about it usually. No one uses Troupes, but they will now, I think.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Harlequins have that high a win rate? I thought it was just around 40% which I expect for an army with like 0 options.

45% mono. They are 57% otherwise. They basically just tack on as haywire delivery and that's about it usually. No one uses Troupes, but they will now, I think.

If the game was mono vs mono. Quins would have an even higher win rate. That is not how the game is played though (or at least it didn't used to be). They have some particularly broken thinks - like the solitaire - and haywire bike which for some reason GW has decided should drop in points. LOL. I play against mono quins all the time with mono armies. They have some busted mechanics. Like a -1 to wound aura. Troops going to be spammed now. A 7 point quinn is abolutely insane. A dire avenger has a higher base cost. Please explain that to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Invuln saves are, most of the time, worse than armor saves.

Marines have a 3+ that can be boosted to a 2+ with cover. Requiring Melta or better to completely ignore.

Daemons have a 5++. Worse against AP0 or -1. Equal against AP-2. And only better against AP-3, or -4 in cover.

That’s why they eat to be more reliable.

Now, some people get to break that (2 point storm shields, for instance) but it’s generally there.

It's not that simple. Being equal against ap-2 means that the 5++ unit is taking the same amount of damage for half the price for most daemons vs meq. It gets worse and worse against heavy weapons which typically have ap-3 and 4. In which case the 5++ is WAY better.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A 7 point quinn is abolutely insane. A dire avenger has a higher base cost. Please explain that to me

Explanation: default trooper was 13, now is 11 (with S3 no ap sword). The picture was mixed with Banshee change, which were also 13, now 11. (with power sword)

But then they’re firing heavy weapons at MEQs and not tanks. Meaning your Repulsor or whatever is free to rain death on them.

 Shadenuat wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
A 7 point quinn is abolutely insane. A dire avenger has a higher base cost. Please explain that to me

Explanation: default trooper was 13, now is 11 (with S3 no ap sword). The picture was mixed with Banshee change, which were also 13, now 11. (with power sword)

I see - so troopes base was 13 not 9. Well that makes it less insane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But then they’re firing heavy weapons at MEQs and not tanks. Meaning your Repulsor or whatever is free to rain death on them.

What if every weapon in your army is a heavy weapon? Like lots of armies actually are in a competitive list.

Then you lose against hordes.

Which you can do with Space Marines-12 PPM for 2 AP-1 shots at 24” (T2, AP0 T1) is a dang sight better than no shots for 7-8 PPM.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Harlequins have that high a win rate? I thought it was just around 40% which I expect for an army with like 0 options.

45% mono. They are 57% otherwise. They basically just tack on as haywire delivery and that's about it usually. No one uses Troupes, but they will now, I think.

If the game was mono vs mono. Quins would have an even higher win rate. That is not how the game is played though (or at least it didn't used to be). They have some particularly broken thinks - like the solitaire - and haywire bike which for some reason GW has decided should drop in points. LOL. I play against mono quins all the time with mono armies. They have some busted mechanics. Like a -1 to wound aura. Troops going to be spammed now. A 7 point quinn is abolutely insane. A dire avenger has a higher base cost. Please explain that to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Invuln saves are, most of the time, worse than armor saves.

Marines have a 3+ that can be boosted to a 2+ with cover. Requiring Melta or better to completely ignore.

Daemons have a 5++. Worse against AP0 or -1. Equal against AP-2. And only better against AP-3, or -4 in cover.

That’s why they eat to be more reliable.

Now, some people get to break that (2 point storm shields, for instance) but it’s generally there.

It's not that simple. Being equal against ap-2 means that the 5++ unit is taking the same amount of damage for half the price. It gets worse and worse against heavy weapons which typically have ap-3 and 4. In which case the 5++ is WAY better.

Infantry models aren't taking lots of AP3/4/5 hits. If AP2 hits marines in cover they save on a 4+. If it hits daemons regardless of where they are they save on a 5+. If its AP0 then marines save on a 2+ and daemons still save on a 5+. There isn't a real contest here and people have been talking about this for ages as to why marines ARE durable.

I'm gonna #doubt that mono quins would fare better if everyone was mono. Straight dakka just pulls them off the table fast -- note the sentence above. 4++ is great. Not so great on a T3 model. And less great when you probably need to transport them as well.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then you lose against hordes.

Which you can do with Space Marines-12 PPM for 2 AP-1 shots at 24” (T2, AP0 T1) is a dang sight better than no shots for 7-8 PPM.

I am not saying daemons are OP. I am saying invune saves are problematic. You also gotta consider lots of light weapons can have good AP. Like bolt rifles/suriken cats/ect. No weapons ignore invune saves except for a few melle weapons which typically suck.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then you lose against hordes.

Which you can do with Space Marines-12 PPM for 2 AP-1 shots at 24” (T2, AP0 T1) is a dang sight better than no shots for 7-8 PPM.

I am not saying daemons are OP. I am saying invune saves are problematic. You also gotta consider lots of light weapons can have good AP. Like bolt rifles/suriken cats/ect. No weapons ignore invune saves except for a few melle weapons which typically suck.

So what would you do, within the confines of the current system, for Daemons?

Because while a complete rewrite is probably the best option, that's probably not in the cards at the moment.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I play against mono quins all the time with mono armies. They have some busted mechanics. Like a -1 to wound aura.

A -1 to wound aura that can only be used on T3 infantry is hardly a broken mechanic.

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I play against mono quins all the time with mono armies. They have some busted mechanics. Like a -1 to wound aura.

A -1 to wound aura that can only be used on T3 infantry is hardly a broken mechanic.

-1 to hits and wounds are broken mechanics. We only have 6 pips on a dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then you lose against hordes.

Which you can do with Space Marines-12 PPM for 2 AP-1 shots at 24” (T2, AP0 T1) is a dang sight better than no shots for 7-8 PPM.

I am not saying daemons are OP. I am saying invune saves are problematic. You also gotta consider lots of light weapons can have good AP. Like bolt rifles/suriken cats/ect. No weapons ignore invune saves except for a few melle weapons which typically suck.

So what would you do, within the confines of the current system, for Daemons?

Because while a complete rewrite is probably the best option, that's probably not in the cards at the moment.

I think giving units additional wounds is the best way to increase a units durability. Or in turn lowering it's cost. You could just give them a regular armor save too. Like other units have. For daemons - say they had no save but had 2 wounds on their standard infantry. It might make you tougher in a lot of situations. I just think it's pretty dumb when a volcano lance has an easier time killing a land raider than it does a few pink horrors.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I just think it's pretty dumb when a volcano lance has an easier time killing a land raider than it does a few pink horrors.

Why?

It's a single-shot weapon designed to kill tanks. Honestly, I'm surprised you're expecting it to kill more than one pink horror at all. It's like being surprised that an APFSDS round from an Abrams can kill a T72 but has a hard time at killing light infantry...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But then they’re firing heavy weapons at MEQs and not tanks. Meaning your Repulsor or whatever is free to rain death on them.

What if every weapon in your army is a heavy weapon? Like lots of armies actually are in a competitive list.

Then you should be in a world of hurt against an army that doesn't have heavy targets.

If you've overinvested in good-AP weapons, you should underperform against units without good armor saves.

There are no units in a termintor armour list or a power armoured list.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I play against mono quins all the time with mono armies. They have some busted mechanics. Like a -1 to wound aura.

A -1 to wound aura that can only be used on T3 infantry is hardly a broken mechanic.

-1 to hits and wounds are broken mechanics. We only have 6 pips on a dice.

-1 to-wound on a T3 unit means going from a 3+ to a 4+ most of the time. That's a 25% reduction in firepower. So the standard boltgun goes from removing Harlies from the table by the bucketload to removing Harlies from the table by the mostly-full-bucketload. They still die like flies, especially for their points.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then you lose against hordes.

Which you can do with Space Marines-12 PPM for 2 AP-1 shots at 24” (T2, AP0 T1) is a dang sight better than no shots for 7-8 PPM.

I am not saying daemons are OP. I am saying invune saves are problematic. You also gotta consider lots of light weapons can have good AP. Like bolt rifles/suriken cats/ect. No weapons ignore invune saves except for a few melle weapons which typically suck.

So what would you do, within the confines of the current system, for Daemons?

Because while a complete rewrite is probably the best option, that's probably not in the cards at the moment.

I think giving units additional wounds is the best way to increase a units durability. Or in turn lowering it's cost. You could just give them a regular armor save too. Like other units have. For daemons - say they had no save but had 2 wounds on their standard infantry. It might make you tougher in a lot of situations. I just think it's pretty dumb when a volcano lance has an easier time killing a land raider than it does a few pink horrors.

So you'd give demons a 33% increased survivability through other means, just to remove the invuln? What's the point?

As for a single super-powerful super-focused laser being more of a threat to a physical super-heavy target like a Land Raider than a gaggle of mystical creatures that phase out of reality frequently, I'd have to question that. Not being part of reality is a *really good excuse* to avoid being clipped by a reality-based laser.

To double down on that, "super powerful" anti-super-heavy lasers and such, which pack a gakton of AP and D, are designed to eliminate superheavy physical constructs. They should be much more of a threat to things like Land Raiders and Imperial Knights than Pink Horrors. If you catch a Pink Horror in reality, it dies very quickly to the laser already. But pumping up amps on the laser - while it would help you kill a big target faster - won't have any impact if you shoot something that *ceases to exist temporarily* when you shot at it.

Invulns aren't "Armor, but super-awesomer". They're the "Your quaint laws of physics have no meaning here" rules. Demons. Psyker-based shielding. Stuff like that. F=MA is only a law for the Materium. These things should be rare (wtf can a Knight get an invuln?), weaker (wtf is it 2ppm for a 3++ in some books?!?!), and on lighter targets (again, wtf can a Knight get one!?!) than armor saves. But they shouldn't be impacted by "Stronger-Awsomer-Bigger Weapons" bypassing them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I just think it's pretty dumb when a volcano lance has an easier time killing a land raider than it does a few pink horrors.

Why?

It's a single-shot weapon designed to kill tanks. Honestly, I'm surprised you're expecting it to kill more than one pink horror at all. It's like being surprised that an APFSDS round from an Abrams can kill a T72 but has a hard time at killing light infantry...

To be fair to the abrams - it has a variety of rounds which some are great at anti personnel. As does most artillery. Plus no. The anti tank round will easily kill 1 dude. The gun is also more accurate than a small arm as well. The volcano lance is a little more powerful than that and obviously has some kind of blast effect having d6 shots. It should vaporize a few infantry without rolling basically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I play against mono quins all the time with mono armies. They have some busted mechanics. Like a -1 to wound aura.

A -1 to wound aura that can only be used on T3 infantry is hardly a broken mechanic.

-1 to hits and wounds are broken mechanics. We only have 6 pips on a dice.

-1 to-wound on a T3 unit means going from a 3+ to a 4+ most of the time. That's a 25% reduction in firepower. So the standard boltgun goes from removing Harlies from the table by the bucketload to removing Harlies from the table by the mostly-full-bucketload. They still die like flies, especially for their points.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then you lose against hordes.

Which you can do with Space Marines-12 PPM for 2 AP-1 shots at 24” (T2, AP0 T1) is a dang sight better than no shots for 7-8 PPM.

I am not saying daemons are OP. I am saying invune saves are problematic. You also gotta consider lots of light weapons can have good AP. Like bolt rifles/suriken cats/ect. No weapons ignore invune saves except for a few melle weapons which typically suck.

So what would you do, within the confines of the current system, for Daemons?

Because while a complete rewrite is probably the best option, that's probably not in the cards at the moment.

I think giving units additional wounds is the best way to increase a units durability. Or in turn lowering it's cost. You could just give them a regular armor save too. Like other units have. For daemons - say they had no save but had 2 wounds on their standard infantry. It might make you tougher in a lot of situations. I just think it's pretty dumb when a volcano lance has an easier time killing a land raider than it does a few pink horrors.

So you'd give demons a 33% increased survivability through other means, just to remove the invuln? What's the point?

As for a single super-powerful super-focused laser being more of a threat to a physical super-heavy target like a Land Raider than a gaggle of mystical creatures that phase out of reality frequently, I'd have to question that. Not being part of reality is a *really good excuse* to avoid being clipped by a reality-based laser.

To double down on that, "super powerful" anti-super-heavy lasers and such, which pack a gakton of AP and D, are designed to eliminate superheavy physical constructs. They should be much more of a threat to things like Land Raiders and Imperial Knights than Pink Horrors. If you catch a Pink Horror in reality, it dies very quickly to the laser already. But pumping up amps on the laser - while it would help you kill a big target faster - won't have any impact if you shoot something that *ceases to exist temporarily* when you shot at it.

Invulns aren't "Armor, but super-awesomer". They're the "Your quaint laws of physics have no meaning here" rules. Demons. Psyker-based shielding. Stuff like that. F=MA is only a law for the Materium. These things should be rare (wtf can a Knight get an invuln?), weaker (wtf is it 2ppm for a 3++ in some books?!?!), and on lighter targets (again, wtf can a Knight get one!?!) than armor saves. But they shouldn't be impacted by "Stronger-Awsomer-Bigger Weapons" bypassing them.

Why? Because more powerful weapons should do more damage to targets.

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair to the abrams - it has a variety of rounds which some are great at anti personnel. As does most artillery. Plus no. The anti tank round will easily kill 1 dude. The gun is also more accurate than a small arm as well. The volcano lance is a little more powerful than that and obviously has some kind of blast effect having d6 shots. It should vaporize a few infantry without rolling basically.

I wouldn't want to be the gunner ordered to load the HE shell in the AP laser. That's not going to end well.

Why? Because more powerful weapons should do more damage to targets.

They already do. A Lascannon does more damage to a Pink Horror than a Lasgun.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then you lose against hordes.

Which you can do with Space Marines-12 PPM for 2 AP-1 shots at 24” (T2, AP0 T1) is a dang sight better than no shots for 7-8 PPM.

I am not saying daemons are OP. I am saying invune saves are problematic. You also gotta consider lots of light weapons can have good AP. Like bolt rifles/suriken cats/ect. No weapons ignore invune saves except for a few melle weapons which typically suck.

So what would you do, within the confines of the current system, for Daemons?

Because while a complete rewrite is probably the best option, that's probably not in the cards at the moment.

Agreed, Daemons are in a bad spot right now. Basically no useful stratagems and no reward for playing mono god. They should take a queue out of AoS daemon books where mono god gives bonuses like Depravity, Blood Tithe, Cycle of Corruption wheel etc.

They need a full rewrite from the ground up and that's not something points alone can fix without making things practically free.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then you lose against hordes.

Which you can do with Space Marines-12 PPM for 2 AP-1 shots at 24” (T2, AP0 T1) is a dang sight better than no shots for 7-8 PPM.

I am not saying daemons are OP. I am saying invune saves are problematic. You also gotta consider lots of light weapons can have good AP. Like bolt rifles/suriken cats/ect. No weapons ignore invune saves except for a few melle weapons which typically suck.

So what would you do, within the confines of the current system, for Daemons?

Because while a complete rewrite is probably the best option, that's probably not in the cards at the moment.

Agreed, Daemons are in a bad spot right now. Basically no useful stratagems and no reward for playing mono god. They should take a queue out of AoS daemon books where mono god gives bonuses like Depravity, Blood Tithe, Cycle of Corruption wheel etc.

They need a full rewrite from the ground up and that's not something points alone can fix without making things practically free.

So basically all non c:sm armies?

Well yes and no.

Daemons are in a much worse spot than the likes of Tau and Eldar

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Well yes and no.

Daemons are in a much worse spot than the likes of Tau and Eldar

That's because gw obviously doesn't believe in mono chaos armies.

We should all soup. With extra salt of course.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Well yes and no.

Daemons are in a much worse spot than the likes of Tau and Eldar

That's because gw obviously doesn't believe in mono chaos armies.

We should all soup. With extra salt of course.

Clearly we just need to wait for the Primaris Demon model line to be released.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Well yes and no.

Daemons are in a much worse spot than the likes of Tau and Eldar

That's because gw obviously doesn't believe in mono chaos armies.

We should all soup. With extra salt of course.

Clearly we just need to wait for the Primaris Demon model line to be released.

Forge world is way ahead of you! For the low low price of LITERALLY everything

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair to the abrams - it has a variety of rounds which some are great at anti personnel. As does most artillery. Plus no. The anti tank round will easily kill 1 dude. The gun is also more accurate than a small arm as well. The volcano lance is a little more powerful than that and obviously has some kind of blast effect having d6 shots. It should vaporize a few infantry without rolling basically.

I wouldn't want to be the gunner ordered to load the HE shell in the AP laser. That's not going to end well.

Why? Because more powerful weapons should do more damage to targets.

They already do. A Lascannon does more damage to a Pink Horror than a Lasgun.

Not really - its about the same in rapid fire. or much worse if its getting double shots.

There is seriously no defense of invune saves. Like...Prophets of the flesh. They cover their bodies in skin and its more effective armor than land-raiders. Like...if its so effective - why don't other armies start covering their tanks in flesh too! It's dumb. Invune saves should be removed from the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair to the abrams - it has a variety of rounds which some are great at anti personnel. As does most artillery. Plus no. The anti tank round will easily kill 1 dude. The gun is also more accurate than a small arm as well. The volcano lance is a little more powerful than that and obviously has some kind of blast effect having d6 shots. It should vaporize a few infantry without rolling basically.

I wouldn't want to be the gunner ordered to load the HE shell in the AP laser. That's not going to end well.

Why? Because more powerful weapons should do more damage to targets.

They already do. A Lascannon does more damage to a Pink Horror than a Lasgun.

Not really - its about the same in rapid fire. or much worse if its getting double shots.

There is seriously no defense of invune saves. Like...Prophets of the flesh. They cover their bodies in skin and its more effective armor than land-raiders. Like...if its so effective - why don't other armies start covering their tanks in flesh too! It's dumb. Invune saves should be removed from the game.

prophets are a good example of broken invulns because theyre on high-toughness, high-wounds ,cheap models. Giving demons a 5++ and harlequins a 5++ isnt breaking anything, the guns you would shoot at them are still the best guns to shoot at them. Remove the gimmicks from harlequins and they wont see any table ever. All their units are 1 thoughness lower than their imperial equivalent , remove the -1 to hit/wound and invuln and they'll jsut die like flies, hell even with all these buffs they still die like flies to bolter fire.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
To be fair to the abrams - it has a variety of rounds which some are great at anti personnel. As does most artillery. Plus no. The anti tank round will easily kill 1 dude. The gun is also more accurate than a small arm as well. The volcano lance is a little more powerful than that and obviously has some kind of blast effect having d6 shots. It should vaporize a few infantry without rolling basically.

I wouldn't want to be the gunner ordered to load the HE shell in the AP laser. That's not going to end well.

Why? Because more powerful weapons should do more damage to targets.

They already do. A Lascannon does more damage to a Pink Horror than a Lasgun.

Not really - its about the same in rapid fire. or much worse if its getting double shots.

This kind of FUD just spins us in circles.
24-48" range: Lascannon hits kill the Pink Horror 5/9 times, versus Lasgun 0 times. Massive advantage Lascannon.
12-24" range: Lascannon 5/9th times, Lasgun 3/9ths times - huge advantage Lascannon.
0-12" range: Lascannon 5/9ths times, Lasgun 5/9ths times - tie

The Lascannon has a massive advantage in killing a single Pink Horror at most ranges, and is tied in one range band. The Lasgun, as a rapid fire weapon, has the advantage of a small chance (~11%) to kill *two* Pink Horrors at close range (<12", but is not any more deadly to a single Pink Horror.

Which is what it should be. A single-target high-piercing deadly round - like a laser or AT weapon - should be deadlier to a single target from a single shot. But a higher-ROF weapon (like a rife) is certainly not a worse weapon for taking out a single close-range light target.

And that's before getting to damage done. The Lascannon does an average of 2 damage (3.5 EV, 5/9 chance to wound). The Lasgun does an average of 0.33 damage. It doesn't help much, because a dead Pink Horror is a dead Pink Horror. But the Lascannon averages *6x* the damage of a Lasgun at most ranges. Still over 3x the damage within 12".

So, yes really. The Lascannon does much more damage - either by chance of removal or actual damage done to the target. It's the worse weapon for clearing out Pink Horrors efficiently, certainly - but that's as it should be.

There is seriously no defense of invune saves.

Bloodletters *don't physically exist* at times.
ShimmerShields *stop any physical force completely*.
The Avatar of Khaine is *a literal piece of a God, of a being that transcends physical laws*.

Each of those, and more, are clear, serious, reasonable defenses of Invuln saves.

"But I'm even better at cutting through dense, deep, and heavy materials!" doesn't factor in to cutting through defenses that are not dense, deep, or heavy materials. Defenses that are not subject to the laws of the Materium.

Like...Prophets of the flesh. They cover their bodies in skin and its more effective armor than land-raiders. Like...if its so effective - why don't other armies start covering their tanks in flesh too!

There are specific cases of Invulns that don't make sense. The above, I'd rather see as T, W, or FnP personally. But that's not all invulns, that's specific invulns.

It's dumb. Invune saves should be removed from the game.

Why should a Lascannon hit to the chest kill a being that doesn't exist when it hits? Why should a Demon, as it blinks in/out and/or rewrites physics to keep it "alive", be just as vulnerable to AP-2 weapons as a human in a flak jacket?

Invulns allow for a greater variety of threats and concerns. Armor Pen isn't about ignoring any defenses. It's about ignoring *armor*.

FNP is even worse than invuns. At least it is capped at a reasonable 5+ and typically a 6+.

 Xenomancers wrote:
FNP is even worse than invuns. At least it is capped at a reasonable 5+ and typically a 6+.

really?

lets say a lascannon hits (and lets say we know for a fact it would do 6 damage), against an invuln its 1 roll needed to block it all, against a FNP, thats 6 rolls needed to block it all. How is that worse than an invuln? if anything ,FNP would be perfect in prophets of flesh since their invulnerable save is litterally called "Insensible to Pain".

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
FNP is even worse than invuns. At least it is capped at a reasonable 5+ and typically a 6+.

really?

lets say a lascannon hits (and lets say we know for a fact it would do 6 damage), against an invuln its 1 roll needed to block it all, against a FNP, thats 6 rolls needed to block it all. How is that worse than an invuln? if anything ,FNP would be perfect in prophets of flesh since their invulnerable save is litterally called "Insensible to Pain".

It's "worse" when you're shooting small beings with small arms. When the "glass cannon" infantry gets a 5+ armor save then a 5+ FnP, basic small arms can feel ineffective (it's basically the same as a 4+ Sv).

But in the context of this thread, it should be substantially better. A 5+ armor save then a 5+ FnP has basically the same as a 6++ chance of surviving an AP-2 Dd6 weapon. Even lower for a D2+ weapon. Whereas a 5++ instead of the FnP has a 33% chance of ignoring the same weapon. Converesely, the first option (5+sv 5+ FnP) has a ~50% chance of surviving a Boltgun wound, whereas the second option (5++) has only a 33% chance of survival.

In other words, Invulns do more to protect you from heavily destructive single shots designed to cut through Armor and other physical defenses. FnP and other physical protections protect you less against weapons designed to cut through physical protections. Against weapons not intended to cut through heavy physical defenses, FnPs and other physical defenses do more than invulns.

Isn't that how it *should* be?