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While we all know that Roboute Guilliman set the standard as to the number of Space Marines in any given Chapter, I've come across at least four examples that prove otherwise: the Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Black Templars, and Dark Angels. The Imperial Fists have this contingency plan called the Great Wall, where they would be able to remerge all Imperial Fist successor Chapters back into a Legion. Space Wolves have 12 different autonomous companies and according to various sources, state that they are in the 2 to 3 thousand range because these companies have more than 100. Black Templars (if believe to be true and not retconned by a recent BL author) range in the area of 5 to 6 thousand. Dark Angels have "split" into different Chapters, given a new name and color scheme, but are so tightly knit together that they are all Dark Angels in all but name/color scheme. Are these things allowed to happen? Has anyone ever questioned why they have gone against Codex regulations?

Because a chapter master is a Peer of the Imperium, there's no-one to really tell them "no". I mean - now Gulliman is back there arguably is, but he seems determined not to start any arguments he doesn't need. It's always implied he only saw it as guidelines, anyway.

Plus, few people break the rules openly.

Wolves: One great company garrisons the gang at once. Inquisitors turns up: "look!1000 astartes!" "But every single one is different to when we checked a decade ago!" "So?"

Fists: the last wall protocol was a secret, and given how much can the high lords would have to admit to to tell on them, probably still is.

Angels: again, the secrets of the inner circle aren't public knowledge.

Templars: broken up into so many small crusades, even helbrecht is probably pretty vague on how many astartes wear his colours. As long as you don't see 1000 in the same place at once, no one can prove otherwise.


Note that even the one chapter that famously did get taken to task for.....mostly for "not being a first founding chapter but acting like one"....the astral claws, still 'hid' it's expansion by embedding surplus marines into the 'tyrants legion' pdf forces

Ok, let';s address this.

The last wall protocal: this was kept absolutely secret and, insofar as we know only invoked ONCE when Terra was under direct threat that the Fists chapter couldn't handle. we can't be sure it's even in effect (the fists where reconsistuted and they no longer man the walls of Terra, it's possiable this was done in part to remove the possiability of the last wall being called)

Space Wolves: Only idiot space wolf fan boys claim the space wolves are "in the 2-3 thousand range" GW has published the compisition of both Logan Grimnar's great company, and Ragnar's Great company. which are specificly noted as the two biggest. Per the 7th edition champion's of fenris space wolf codex supplement as of the battle of alaric prime, the Champion's of fenris, the LARGEST great company, numbers at 200 individuals. thus a GENEROUS assumption of size is that the space wolves number roughly 2000 marines.

HOWEVER, we know ragnar's company is a little smaller at 188 wolves.


I emphisise these great companies are specificly known as the biggest. given the lack of a set size, we can't dismiss the possiability other great companies are SMALLER then a standard company.

so yeah the space wolves are proably about 1500-2000 marines strong. if not less


Dark Angels: they may be closely linked but offically they're seperate chapters. there isn't much that the Imperium can do if independant chapters cooperate. and frankly it doesn't matter, because all that matters is if Azerial says "so let's worship chaos" he can't ORDER other chapters to do so. they can decide he's gone nuts and refuse to follow him.

Black templars: they're specificly noted as their crusades keeps them apart and makes an offical count impossiable, in fact the templars likely don't know their full strength

Keep in mind that most of the "oversized" Chapters are scattered across countless theaters of combat. None of them are rolling up with a mini-legion sized force.

Even the Ultramarines *can* form into a larger than Chapter size. Their close ties to many of their successors, notably the Genesis Chapter, has led to cases where the Ultramarines unofficially have larger numbers, Similarly, the whole Honour Company thing, which is similar to the Deathwatch, but only made up of Ultramarines successors.

The main point of the Codex wasn't to have 1000 Marines strictly, but more to ensure that there was compartmentalisation of power, and the once-Legions were less centred on individual persons. Sure, Azrael and Dante and Calgar can call upon their allies to help them, but they're not forced by order to do so.

Yes the 1000 marines are more of a constitutional thing for the chapters thgemselves. 1000 marines is pretty much the minimum that can be self sustaining on apothecaries, ships, training, etc. their job is to provide the imperium with the services of about 1000 marines, and if they’re in a situation where they need more marines, they ask other chapters to cooperate for that period.

Like BrianDavion said, successors can easily refuse orders from Azrael, Calgar, or the Imperial Fists because the successor chapter masters aren’t appointed or fired by those first founding masters.

Well Azrael can because the Unforgiven are still basically a Legion.

pm713 wrote:
Well Azrael can because the Unforgiven are still basically a Legion.

No he can't and no they're not. they may operate together etc. but each chapter is nominally independant, if Azrael told the chapter master of a sucessor chapter to do something and said chapter responded by telling him to pound sand, there's not much Azzy could do beyond not invite him to the super sekert club house meetings anymore

The two clear offenders are the Dark Angel and the Black Templar. It's questionable that anyone else break the Coded so blatantly.

The Templars surely exceed the maximum number by far. The Dark Angel and their Successor share the same command structure (the Inner Circles).
So, it's false that any successor may refuse anything to Azrael. They are literally in the same (secret) assembly. But at last they hide themselves, the Black Templar simply don't give a gak

Also in 40k, heresy is in the eye of the beholder

So, it's false that any successor may refuse anything to Azrael. They are literally in the same (secret) assembly. But at last they hide themselves

right first of all the hide it. secondly the secret assmbly hardly has the weight of law, As I said if a dark angels sucessor commander told Azeral to stuff it.. there'd not be a lot they could do other then kick him from the super secret club. So yeah, there's that but even this mild legion building is eneugh that what people see of it makes the high lords distrust the dark angels there is a reason DA sucessors are so rare despite having gene seed that's as stable (if not more) as the Ultramarines.

BrianDavion wrote:

So, it's false that any successor may refuse anything to Azrael. They are literally in the same (secret) assembly. But at last they hide themselves

right first of all the hide it. secondly the secret assmbly hardly has the weight of law, As I said if a dark angels sucessor commander told Azeral to stuff it.. there'd not be a lot they could do other then kick him from the super secret club. So yeah, there's that but even this mild legion building is eneugh that what people see of it makes the high lords distrust the dark angels there is a reason DA sucessors are so rare despite having gene seed that's as stable (if not more) as the Ultramarines.

Azrael is Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels or Unforgiven.
Chapter Masters of other Unforgiven chapters are simply title "Grand Master"

Similarily, Belial and Sammeal are Grand Masters of the Deathwing and Ravenwing respectivley while other company masters are just "Masters". I assume captains of their successors' 1st and 2nd company equivalents are just named "Masters" as well. Hell, even other Unforgiven 1st and 2nd companies go by different names just like how their chapters go by different names and colours aswell.

I dont know what happens if Unforgiven Grand Masters tell the Supreme Grand Master to "eff off," but Azrael is pretty fair. Regardless, in the Inner Circle, Azrael is the highest authority. Don't think that he isnt just because he doesnt execute someone for disobeying him or whatever it is you think is supposed to happen when he's disobeyed.

Maybe....

BrianDavion wrote:
Ok, let';s address this.

The last wall protocal: this was kept absolutely secret and, insofar as we know only invoked ONCE when Terra was under direct threat that the Fists chapter couldn't handle. we can't be sure it's even in effect (the fists where reconsistuted and they no longer man the walls of Terra, it's possiable this was done in part to remove the possiability of the last wall being called)

Space Wolves: Only idiot space wolf fan boys claim the space wolves are "in the 2-3 thousand range" GW has published the compisition of both Logan Grimnar's great company, and Ragnar's Great company. which are specificly noted as the two biggest. Per the 7th edition champion's of fenris space wolf codex supplement as of the battle of alaric prime, the Champion's of fenris, the LARGEST great company, numbers at 200 individuals. thus a GENEROUS assumption of size is that the space wolves number roughly 2000 marines.

HOWEVER, we know ragnar's company is a little smaller at 188 wolves.


I emphisise these great companies are specificly known as the biggest. given the lack of a set size, we can't dismiss the possiability other great companies are SMALLER then a standard company.

so yeah the space wolves are proably about 1500-2000 marines strong. if not less


Dark Angels: they may be closely linked but offically they're seperate chapters. there isn't much that the Imperium can do if independant chapters cooperate. and frankly it doesn't matter, because all that matters is if Azerial says "so let's worship chaos" he can't ORDER other chapters to do so. they can decide he's gone nuts and refuse to follow him.

Black templars: they're specificly noted as their crusades keeps them apart and makes an offical count impossiable, in fact the templars likely don't know their full strength

The Wolfies would be a bit bigger than that, that information being from before Warzone Fenris so at least 200 years in fluff time and not including where Wolf Priests, Iron Priests and Rune Priests are located.
Since then they lost about two companies during Warzone Fenris and the Fall of Cadia so that would probably be less than two hundred marines each given that neither were Ragnar or Grimnar's companies so 1100 sounds fair, then they picked up eleven groups of Wulfen and more appeared on Fenris, anywhere between five and fifteen to a pack anywhere from sixty to a hundred and sixty five, I'll err on the side of caution and say a hundred making 1200, they also got two thousand new Primaris Marines and left a solid thousand on Terra as the Wolfspear 'Successor' meaning 2200 Wolves not including the successor and Njal Stormcaller returned the remainder of the 13th Company in Ashes of Prospero, mostly Heresy era wargear but also a solid number of marines, pick a number between ten who are described in the book and a heresy era company minus its Wulfen so between ten and eight hundred marines - the Wolves are looking between 2200 and 3000.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Well Azrael can because the Unforgiven are still basically a Legion.

No he can't and no they're not. they may operate together etc. but each chapter is nominally independant, if Azrael told the chapter master of a sucessor chapter to do something and said chapter responded by telling him to pound sand, there's not much Azzy could do beyond not invite him to the super sekert club house meetings anymore

Yes he can and yes they are. Azrael is the leader of the Inner Circle so other Chapter Masters of the Unforgiven are subordinate to him.

123ply wrote:

I dont know what happens if Unforgiven Grand Masters tell the Supreme Grand Master to "eff off," but Azrael is pretty fair. Regardless, in the Inner Circle, Azrael is the highest authority. Don't think that he isnt just because he doesnt execute someone for disobeying him or whatever it is you think is supposed to happen when he's disobeyed.

Even money that the Grand Master of Chaplains in the successor chapter force feeds the rebel Grand Master a bolt shell at point blank range. This is a chapter Legion that was fully prepared to fire on Guilliman's fleet because they thought their secret was out. Fragging a rogue Grand Master is a blip by comparison.

Sterling191 wrote:

123ply wrote:

I dont know what happens if Unforgiven Grand Masters tell the Supreme Grand Master to "eff off," but Azrael is pretty fair. Regardless, in the Inner Circle, Azrael is the highest authority. Don't think that he isnt just because he doesnt execute someone for disobeying him or whatever it is you think is supposed to happen when he's disobeyed.

Even money that the Grand Master of Chaplains in the successor chapter force feeds the rebel Grand Master a bolt shell at point blank range. This is a chapter Legion that was fully prepared to fire on Guilliman's fleet because they thought their secret was out. Fragging a rogue Grand Master is a blip by comparison.

You don't need executions when you have minor mind control. Executions is for the peasants/soldiers of the Imperial Guard.

Dakka Wolf wrote:they also got two thousand new Primaris Marines and left a solid thousand on Terra as the Wolfspear 'Successor'

Sources on the numbers for both of these? The Wolfspear aren't based on Terra, they're guarding the Pit of Raukos, an old Warp rift - they weren't ever part of the Space Wolves themselves, any more so than any of the other Ultima Founding Chapters are part of their progenitor Chapters.

Similarly, what's the source on them gaining two thousand Primaris Marines? That's a whole two Chapters - surely at least 1000 of those would be used for a whole new successor, and therefore not part of the Space Wolves?

Njal Stormcaller returned the remainder of the 13th Company in Ashes of Prospero, mostly Heresy era wargear but also a solid number of marines, pick a number between ten who are described in the book and a heresy era company minus its Wulfen so between ten and eight hundred marines

Lexicanum lists that the 13th is around 200 Marines, which sounds closer to what 30k Company sizes are (100 Marines, but the ones trapped on Prospero could have included lots of auxiliaries or just many stranded units from other companies) - but, of course, Lexicanum isn't always 100% correct.

Honestly, I don't think the Space Wolves have too much more than 1500 myself. They took very heavy losses from the Siege of Fenris and the 13th Black Crusade, but regained Primaris Marines (probably not a ludicrous amount more, Guilliman was the one to request Chapters being around 1000 men large, and he's the one handing out Primaris Marines), and a double-strength 13th Company. They're certainly larger, I think, but twice the size of a normal Chapter? I don't think so.

locarno24 wrote:

Wolves: One great company garrisons the gang at once. Inquisitors turns up:

Wolves: Beat it, chump.

Inquisitor: Leaves.

Honestly, very few Space Marine chapters would allow an inquisitor to poke around a garrison/monastery for any reason save the Inquisitor shows up with several regiments of Guard and Lords of Terra level documentation. But to do a head count? He'll be told to pound sand.

Is there any instance of a SM chapter breaking up after the Legions were sub-divided? Some chapters must have grown big enough, but I doubt most would bother unless it became really hard to explain to the Admech why they needed so many suits of power armor.

Ive always thought the 1000 marines wasn't set in stone and that's even more so now.
When you think about it the ultramarines are probably above 1000 at the moment. we know they had an 11th company for a while full of primaris marines, which i assume was absorbed as losses were taken. Then there are detached units that are lost/ displaced in the warp and return, just like the reinforced company Sicarius had with him. previously these units like ships captains and tech marines were probably accounted for by the 10th company being scouts but now the vanguard are in the 10th.
then there's the various honour guards, honour company and deathwatch secondees so if the ultramarines arnt worried the i dow other chapters would be either

I always considered that the breaking up of the Space Marine Legions into Chapters, was like breaking a Division into separate Brigades/Regiments. How big is a Brigade/Regiment/Chapter? Well it varies. But Not as large as a Division/Legion.
If a Space Marine Chapter is over strength but no where near Legion strength, and not abusing their power (which is a problem at any strength), then only the most pedantic Administratum Scribe cares.

Well in my opinion anyway.

One suspects 1000 marines was always an approximate guide rather than a maximum, and there's plenty to back that up (even the Ultramarines have been portrayed as more like 1400 a few times).

I doubt the HLOT care as most chapters are personal fiefdoms, unless it starts to get significantly above two thousand, and the Templars are the only chapter that really applies to. It's clear their unique role meaning they probably couldn't be marshalled by one individual means they get an exemption, and the former legions/first founding situation has always been a bit political and not very enforced since Guilliman came up with the idea.

Fraternal bonds between legions with the same originator have always been accepted, so it's likely that nobody bats an eyelid at the Dark Angels because nobody else knows quite how deep the connection goes and it's not formalised in the eyes of the Imperium - while they likely have their own ways of managing a Grand Master who decides not to co-operate, they wouldn't be sanctioned by the Imperial Authorities over it.