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Me looking at all the complaints about baneblades while I hold 3 barbed heirodules I purchased at the start of 8th edition in my arms...………..



I need about a 100 point drop on my superheavy's before they even come close to competitive.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Me looking at all the complaints about baneblades while I hold 3 barbed heirodules I purchased at the start of 8th edition in my arms...………..



I need about a 100 point drop on my superheavy's before they even come close to competitive.

Hey man one of those Heiodules might actually be competitive now with the new bug monster mash rules.

With the 5++ save and half for diminishing profiles upgrade the barbed drule could be pretty dope.

Nah, I tried it out already in a game and it does basically nothing if you fail all your 5++ saves.

22 wounds on them means they die quick anyway. They really should be 25 wounds to put them right outside of range on 4 lazcannon instagib.


They are without a doubt 100 points overcosted.

 Galef wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Perhaps fragile is the wrong word. Maybe, we can all agree that Baneblades are surprisingly easy to destroy or degrade into near uselessness? Compared to the basis russ, the baneblade quickly became a points sink that was all to easy for armies to knock out.

Agreed. It's the Land Raider syndrome. A LR is quite clearly more durable that a Predator, but for the points and damage output, you are way better off with 2 Predators.

-

And that's 8th ed in a nushell. One big thing is almost never as good as the two smaller things you could get for the same points.

The Newman wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Perhaps fragile is the wrong word. Maybe, we can all agree that Baneblades are surprisingly easy to destroy or degrade into near uselessness? Compared to the basis russ, the baneblade quickly became a points sink that was all to easy for armies to knock out.

Agreed. It's the Land Raider syndrome. A LR is quite clearly more durable that a Predator, but for the points and damage output, you are way better off with 2 Predators.

-

And that's 8th ed in a nushell. One big thing is almost never as good as the two smaller things you could get for the same points.

Realistically, to make it a completely viable tank/transport option, assuming the land raider costs exactly as much as two predators, it would have to have exactly twice the health and damage as them, plus the transport ability to make up for the fact its a single model that can be debuffed and death with easier, and can only be in one place at once.

The Newman wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Perhaps fragile is the wrong word. Maybe, we can all agree that Baneblades are surprisingly easy to destroy or degrade into near uselessness? Compared to the basis russ, the baneblade quickly became a points sink that was all to easy for armies to knock out.

Agreed. It's the Land Raider syndrome. A LR is quite clearly more durable that a Predator, but for the points and damage output, you are way better off with 2 Predators.

-

And that's 8th ed in a nushell. One big thing is almost never as good as the two smaller things you could get for the same points.

Your definition of almost never is off.

Start of edition: Magnus, Big Bird, 10-man deepstriking warptiming Chaos Terminator Squads, Gauss Pylons, Shadowswords, 30-man Ork mobs.

Middle of the edition: Magnus, Mortarion, Knights, Tesseract Vaults, 30-man Ork mobs, 6-man Hiveguard squads, 20-man Genestealer squads, big Ogryn squads (wait, Bullgryn*, I know the difference, I'm not GW).

Space Marines, Craftworlds, Drukhari and Tau have more efficient units than their biggest squads or models and are generally pretty MSU, but 8th has been riddled with Titanic units and huge squads. The Drukhari Tantalus isn't too bad and both Tau and Space Marine Titanic units have topped at least one tournament each even if I believe their other options are more competitive. Repuslor Executioners are pretty strong and you could get two cheaper vehicles if you wanted, but they've racked up a fair number of top placements at tournaments.

Big models/units are easyer to debuff, but also to buff.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tau surges are going to dominate. I used to run a tripple surge list and I considered it the strongest possible tau army. Then again. In my shops I don't have garenteed magic boxes to hide my drones in and turn lascannon shots in 1 mortal wound for a busted sheild drones. Regardless they are very strong. Surge has gone down to 330 which is absolute madness (about a 70 point drop). MADNESS. That is with the 4++ save.

Encouraging though that the LR excelsior has dropped in price to about 330 now. At least it's got a 5++ save and that Grav cannon is preferable to heavy bolters. And filling an HQ slot is bettering than taking up a heavy. Any word on the rino primaris? I did not see a drop. Tell me though - in what world should a LR cost the same as a storm surge?

Wait what? Stormsurges can't SP which is why they are generally considered less optimal than triptides.

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tau surges are going to dominate. I used to run a tripple surge list and I considered it the strongest possible tau army. Then again. In my shops I don't have garenteed magic boxes to hide my drones in and turn lascannon shots in 1 mortal wound for a busted sheild drones. Regardless they are very strong. Surge has gone down to 330 which is absolute madness (about a 70 point drop). MADNESS. That is with the 4++ save.

Encouraging though that the LR excelsior has dropped in price to about 330 now. At least it's got a 5++ save and that Grav cannon is preferable to heavy bolters. And filling an HQ slot is bettering than taking up a heavy. Any word on the rino primaris? I did not see a drop. Tell me though - in what world should a LR cost the same as a storm surge?

Wait what? Stormsurges can't SP which is why they are generally considered less optimal than triptides.

LMAO Stormsurge battlesuit? Nah that'd be too OP to have a Titanic unit that can shrug off Macro weapons. Supremacy Suit? Well of course, it has suit in its name so its a battlesuit.

The Newman wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Perhaps fragile is the wrong word. Maybe, we can all agree that Baneblades are surprisingly easy to destroy or degrade into near uselessness? Compared to the basis russ, the baneblade quickly became a points sink that was all to easy for armies to knock out.

Agreed. It's the Land Raider syndrome. A LR is quite clearly more durable that a Predator, but for the points and damage output, you are way better off with 2 Predators.

-

And that's 8th ed in a nushell. One big thing is almost never as good as the two smaller things you could get for the same points.

It all depends on the exact properties and costs.

So that really brings the question: what's the worth of a transport that doesn't fly and doesn't have any fire points.

Very little. Especially because it turn off the units inside.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So that really brings the question: what's the worth of a transport that doesn't fly and doesn't have any fire points.

Off the top of my head the only transport that isn't also a gunboat is the Rhino, where if you're not playing Chaos it's usually just better to swap the four seats for the heavy weapon mount and take a Razorback.

(Addendum: Trukk isn't overarmed but is open-topped, Land Speeder Storm exists but has been rendered basically redundant by the marketing push to Primaris Marines, and...that's pretty much it.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So that really brings the question: what's the worth of a transport that doesn't fly and doesn't have any fire points.

Off the top of my head the only transport that isn't also a gunboat is the Rhino, where if you're not playing Chaos it's usually just better to swap the four seats for the heavy weapon mount and take a Razorback.

(Addendum: Trukk isn't overarmed but is open-topped, Land Speeder Storm exists but has been rendered basically redundant by the marketing push to Primaris Marines, and...that's pretty much it.)

Giving Scouts Advanced Deploy made the Storm redundant, if GW had never released a single Primaris model you'd still never see a Storm on the table.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So that really brings the question: what's the worth of a transport that doesn't fly and doesn't have any fire points.

It depends. Nobz, meganobz, wyches and incubi would love a rhino instead of a trukk or a raider for example. I'd take a rhino over a 10ish points more expensive raider to carry 10 blood claws anytime, not to mention crappy 65 points venoms which are decent only for MSU shooting units. A trukk is way overpriced as it's basically useless unless it transports flash gitz or tankbustas, and both of them have more efficient ways to be deployed: on foot screened by gretchins and by tellyporta.

A 65ish points transport with T7 3+ save, transport capacity of 10 and some supporting fire could be very good for a close combat unit that isn't super fast, can't deep strike for free or have high T and invulns.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So that really brings the question: what's the worth of a transport that doesn't fly and doesn't have any fire points.

It depends. Nobz, meganobz, wyches and incubi would love a rhino instead of a trukk or a raider for example. I'd take a rhino over a 10ish points more expensive raider to carry 10 blood claws anytime, not to mention crappy 65 points venoms which are decent only for MSU shooting units. A trukk is way overpriced as it's basically useless unless it transports flash gitz or tankbustas, and both of them have more efficient ways to be deployed: on foot screened by gretchins and by tellyporta.

A 65ish points transport with T7 3+ save, transport capacity of 10 and some supporting fire could be very good for a close combat unit that isn't super fast, can't deep strike for free or have high T and invulns.

Wyches and Incubi are gonna want the transport that flies though. Rhinos can't fit TEQ so the comparison for Meganobz is irrelevant.

As a Grey Knight player I am so damned glad their point cost has came down if I'm honest. 46 points for each Terminator was harsh as hell, but at their new point cost plus their natural psychic gifts makes them pretty decent if I'm honest.

I think the one rule that made Grey Knights come into their own though, in addition to Chapter Approved point reductions is Bolter Discipline. The amount of bolt shots Grey Knights can put out is obscene, the one thing that bugs me though is that it doesn't benefit them in Close Combat like True Grit used to where Storm Bolters were treated as pistols for Grey Knights.

That would add a bit more to them, enough to make them a viable choice, they're already beastly in Close Combat. I would also if I'm honest like to see Grey Knights get a bump to Leadership, and some kind of buff for charging into combat. With all their intense psychic abilities I'm thinking something like 'Blinding Charge', with -1 to enemy roll to hit in Close Combat, or something like cannot be Overwatched. It would definitely give them a niche feel, Close Combat beasts.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
As far as lack of strategems goes, you ever see what a baneblade can do to a chaos army with vengeance for cadia on it?

While VFC is admittedly hideously OP on a Baneblade for 1CP, it's also basically only one of three (the others being Defensive Gunners and Crush Them!) they're ever going to get any use out of, and it's only useful against one faction.

I find that to be truth, VFC is amazing on the baneblade. Honestly with the point drops they feel like a solid choice, they can die pretty quick, but with proper boosting they can live for awhile too. I doubt they will often last the whole game but they don't need to with the damage they can lay down. It would be good if they could eventually get some buffs to longevity though over just point drops for days, like some kind of feel no pain mechanic would be great and feel a bit different from the invuln on the knights.

I have to say though I've found them to be amazing good in my games, that said I engage many chaos players and run into very few knights.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

I think we all agree that the thing is overly fragile.

Calling something T8 with 26 wounds overly fragile...I just don't know about that.

Considering vehicles with no other unafectable source of defenses is considered fragile atm, yes, i believe you can call a baneblade fragile, altough brittle would be better imo

Well you can outflank them, add +1 to their save and i think you can make it -1 to hit from range.

MB did not realize they FAQ that the strat works only in infantry.

Which can mean little if they go first and nuke it or cripple it bad before you put up defenses. As well those defenses are all hinged on getting off psychic powers which isn't a promise either. Outflanking them is fun but really doesn't add much to it surviving past a few gotcha moments.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Which can mean little if they go first and nuke it or cripple it bad before you put up defenses. As well those defenses are all hinged on getting off psychic powers which isn't a promise either. Outflanking them is fun but really doesn't add much to it surviving past a few gotcha moments.

+1 to save is stratagem and i think you can use smoke in the opponent shooting phase.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wyches and Incubi are gonna want the transport that flies though.

Not necessarily. FLY is a bonus but cheaper and more resilient transport is also a bonus. In all the games I've played with my former drukhari army sometimes FLY mattered for assaulting units that disembarked from the raider, sometimes didn't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rhinos can't fit TEQ so the comparison for Meganobz is irrelevant.

Meganobz could be TEQs in some way but orks and SM aren't the same army, meganobz don't have the deep strike ability but orks infantries have no restrictions about what can or can't fit a vehicle, that's why it's relevant.

Meganobz couldn't care less about the open topped rule, they just need a safe and fast ride and can't deep strike for free like termies. So they really would kill for a ride that costs as much a trukk but is more resilient and has better supporting fire. Meganobz would also kill for a free deepstriking ability, in fact the most common way to field them is to invest 2 CPs for the tellyporta stratagem.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wyches and Incubi are gonna want the transport that flies though.

Not necessarily. FLY is a bonus but cheaper and more resilient transport is also a bonus. In all the games I've played with my former drukhari army sometimes FLY mattered for assaulting units that disembarked from the raider, sometimes didn't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Rhinos can't fit TEQ so the comparison for Meganobz is irrelevant.

Meganobz could be TEQs in some way but orks and SM aren't the same army, meganobz don't have the deep strike ability but orks infantries have no restrictions about what can or can't fit a vehicle, that's why it's relevant.

Meganobz couldn't care less about the open topped rule, they just need a safe and fast ride and can't deep strike for free like termies. So they really would kill for a ride that costs as much a trukk but is more resilient and has better supporting fire. Meganobz would also kill for a free deepstriking ability, in fact the most common way to field them is to invest 2 CPs for the tellyporta stratagem.

Al through i agree with your assessment, its kind of irrelevant, because its obvious that certain units that are not used in certain armies, could be really good in others.
For Aeldar having cheap and durable transport can be massive upgrade, for harlies having transport with 10 man capacity that need dedicated firepower to get rid of could be really good.
For the new space marines, that have insane deployment tricks, Impulsor, Drop pod, and infantry that is +2 save in cover its just tax, because they did not need the extra durability

Marin wrote:


Al through i agree with your assessment, its kind of irrelevant, because its obvious that certain units that are not used in certain armies, could be really good in others.
For Aeldar having cheap and durable transport can be massive upgrade, for harlies having transport with 10 man capacity that need dedicated firepower to get rid of could be really good.

I may agree on that, but SM players that envy open topped vehicles and they wish their army (which doesn't even need them) could get something similar do exist.

In fact I really think that a rhino is a very good unit for its profile and points costs, it just doesn't fit the style and the most effective combos of some armies that can have it. Also trukks and raiders are good for their points and stats, even if they are both sub optimal choices in their codexes, just like a rhino is in many SM armies.

The rhino isn't worse than a trukk or a raider, that's for sure. I just disagree with those players that consider a rhino pure garbage but open topped vehicles from other armies good or very good instead, ignoring all the cons they have in those factions. So yeah a rhino worths 65ish points, not everyone needs it though, that's the point. Just like some other transports.

Rhinos turn off very expensive units. I think they are very much worse than trukks or raiders.

Battlescribe doesn't have the pt changes up.
Takes long this time.

About Rhinos, well yeah they cant do anything, when the game gives you +300% more damage and no defensive additives, what do you expect?

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
As far as lack of strategems goes, you ever see what a baneblade can do to a chaos army with vengeance for cadia on it?

While VFC is admittedly hideously OP on a Baneblade for 1CP, it's also basically only one of three (the others being Defensive Gunners and Crush Them!) they're ever going to get any use out of, and it's only useful against one faction.

I find that to be truth, VFC is amazing on the baneblade. Honestly with the point drops they feel like a solid choice, they can die pretty quick, but with proper boosting they can live for awhile too. I doubt they will often last the whole game but they don't need to with the damage they can lay down. It would be good if they could eventually get some buffs to longevity though over just point drops for days, like some kind of feel no pain mechanic would be great and feel a bit different from the invuln on the knights.

I have to say though I've found them to be amazing good in my games, that said I engage many chaos players and run into very few knights.

Exactly. A unit like a baneblade doesn't need to survive the whole game as long as it can earn back its cost by either killing your opponent's units or absorbing their fire/attention while your other units do what they need to do. The points drop makes them more efficient for this.

Now a similar unit that was priced about say 350 too high in ca 2018 for "reasons " and then not given a cut like most other low in ca 2019 for "reasons " not so much.

Marin wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Which can mean little if they go first and nuke it or cripple it bad before you put up defenses. As well those defenses are all hinged on getting off psychic powers which isn't a promise either. Outflanking them is fun but really doesn't add much to it surviving past a few gotcha moments.

+1 to save is stratagem and i think you can use smoke in the opponent shooting phase.

That strat only works for infantry as per errata and no I am pretty sure smoke is only in your phase to not shoot at all which kinda ruins the point of taking a BB.