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Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the ork point drops I've seen are equally if not more egregious. For some reason the best war-buggy (the squigbuggy) which was 140 points is now...100 points.

At this price it is probably fighting for best unit in the entire game.
The other buggys also saw significant drops. These were already some of the best units in the codex too for shooting units. A very uninformed choice from GW...

Meanwhile space marines tanks which are still pretty poor are made to suffer with no drops because ironhands superdoctrine exists and a few busted whitescars and ravengaurd traits.


Are you insane/trolling again? Honest question. You can't, with any sense of reasonable logic, honestly believe that -
a) The Squigbuggy is "fighting for best unit in the entire game"
b) Any of the buggies "were already some of the best units in the codex"
c) Space Marine tanks are "still pretty poor".

This must be a joke, right? If it's not Xeno I strongly suggest you invest a bit of time checking out Space Marine results compared to other factions' results over the past few months, as well as their lists. I also suggest you take a look at any Ork lists that finished in the top 4 over the last 2 years and see how many have your supposed "best war-buggy" the Squigbuggy in them (the answer is 0). In fact take a look how many lists included ANY buggies (the answer is 0 again).

You can't be taken seriously with all this rubbish you keep spouting and it's a shame because some of the stuff you say makes sense. Unfortunately people don't listen to you when you're talking sense because you spend so much time doing otherwise (as above).

I don't mean to be harsh here and apologies if it's too harsh. Really though, a little fact checking on your part would go a looooooooooooooooong way.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





He's xenomancer. It's his speciality to turn worst units into best and best units into worst in his meta. Best guess is he's playing with some weird house rules he always forgets to mention. Only reason his claims could even be true.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Squigbuggy is essentially a Ravager with one disi. It was awful then and it's awful now. An example of a unit that cant easily be fixed with points changes.

The scrapjet and dragsta are the interesting ones. With the other two probably being okay but not really doing much. (Suicide runs for explodes results aside.)
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

Tyel wrote:
The Squigbuggy is essentially a Ravager with one disi. It was awful then and it's awful now. An example of a unit that cant easily be fixed with points changes.

The scrapjet and dragsta are the interesting ones. With the other two probably being okay but not really doing much. (Suicide runs for explodes results aside.)
The Squigbuggy's stats are like someone looked at a Ravager, then at the Taurox, and said "What if Iremoved the best aspect of both of these vehicles, mashed them together, and give it three grenade launchers and a bomb?"

The sad thing about the Snazzwagon and the Boosta-Blasta is they basically have the same problem: Inconsistent weapon ranges and a "give it everything" approach to rules means you're always failing to take advantage of half of it's abilities, while the scrapjet and dragsta you know what you're doing with them (they just were expensive)


Want to help support my plastic addiction? I sell stories about humans fighting to survive in a space age frontier.
Lord Harrab wrote:"Gimme back my leg-bone! *wack* Ow, don't hit me with it!" commonly uttered by Guardsman when in close combat with Orks.

Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts.  
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Martel732 wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Galef wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Perhaps fragile is the wrong word. Maybe, we can all agree that Baneblades are surprisingly easy to destroy or degrade into near uselessness? Compared to the basis russ, the baneblade quickly became a points sink that was all to easy for armies to knock out.

Agreed. It's the Land Raider syndrome. A LR is quite clearly more durable that a Predator, but for the points and damage output, you are way better off with 2 Predators.

-

And that's 8th ed in a nushell. One big thing is almost never as good as the two smaller things you could get for the same points.


It all depends on the exact properties and costs.


Yeah, 8th ed in a nutshell, except when the meta was

gulliman buffed giganto-planes

magnus and morty power couple

a huge guard gunline with astropaths buffing a catachan baneblade chassis

ork mobbed up loota squads, that time when Orks used a stratagem specifically designed to make two smaller things for the same points one big thing and it was the meta

castellaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaans for a long ass time

Triptides

So, 8th in a nutshell, except for most of the metas we've seen in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Tyel wrote:
The Squigbuggy is essentially a Ravager with one disi. It was awful then and it's awful now. An example of a unit that cant easily be fixed with points changes.

The scrapjet and dragsta are the interesting ones. With the other two probably being okay but not really doing much. (Suicide runs for explodes results aside.)
The Squigbuggy's stats are like someone looked at a Ravager, then at the Taurox, and said "What if Iremoved the best aspect of both of these vehicles, mashed them together, and give it three grenade launchers and a bomb?"

The sad thing about the Snazzwagon and the Boosta-Blasta is they basically have the same problem: Inconsistent weapon ranges and a "give it everything" approach to rules means you're always failing to take advantage of half of it's abilities, while the scrapjet and dragsta you know what you're doing with them (they just were expensive)



I never really found the boosta-blasta that hard to take advantage of. You want to get it within 8", and then you're using all its guns. and other than the grenades on the Snazzwagon, all its guns are anti-infantry 36" range, aren't they?

how much do you really think GW is charging the snazzwagon for a pair of frag grenades?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 12:49:48


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Not Online!!! wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Well wouldn't find me complaining if scope of stratagems were limited and several would become upgrades instead


I believe the best part is, that with the AL statagems they kinda went that route, but combat drugs and geneteic experimentation is locked to one squad again for EC.... not to mention butcher terminators

The thing is nothing is "priced as is double shooting" - Oblitz were and no one played them anymore even though it was a mathmatical buff to the combo. You really think noise marines are priced to double shoot? With +1 str +1 to wound and +1 damage with +1 to hit and reroll 1's? NOPE. They are priced without buffs. Every attempt to price a unit like it is buffed will be a fail because it doesn't pass the logic test. I am inclined to agree with others in this thread. Double shooting needs to be flat out removed. Max 1 stratagem per unit.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




All aboard the Xeno freak out train.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the ork point drops I've seen are equally if not more egregious. For some reason the best war-buggy (the squigbuggy) which was 140 points is now...100 points.

At this price it is probably fighting for best unit in the entire game.
The other buggys also saw significant drops. These were already some of the best units in the codex too for shooting units. A very uninformed choice from GW...

Meanwhile space marines tanks which are still pretty poor are made to suffer with no drops because ironhands superdoctrine exists and a few busted whitescars and ravengaurd traits.


Are you insane/trolling again? Honest question. You can't, with any sense of reasonable logic, honestly believe that -
a) The Squigbuggy is "fighting for best unit in the entire game"
b) Any of the buggies "were already some of the best units in the codex"
c) Space Marine tanks are "still pretty poor".

This must be a joke, right? If it's not Xeno I strongly suggest you invest a bit of time checking out Space Marine results compared to other factions' results over the past few months, as well as their lists. I also suggest you take a look at any Ork lists that finished in the top 4 over the last 2 years and see how many have your supposed "best war-buggy" the Squigbuggy in them (the answer is 0). In fact take a look how many lists included ANY buggies (the answer is 0 again).

You can't be taken seriously with all this rubbish you keep spouting and it's a shame because some of the stuff you say makes sense. Unfortunately people don't listen to you when you're talking sense because you spend so much time doing otherwise (as above).

I don't mean to be harsh here and apologies if it's too harsh. Really though, a little fact checking on your part would go a looooooooooooooooong way.

Once again we have someone looking at top tournament results and assuming that because the list they chose doesn't include x unit. That x unit is bad. At 140 the squid buggy was pretty bad. Not, lets drop the unit 40% bad though. That is a joke. Ork buggies were already some of the best units in the codex for shooting. Unfortunately orks are much better at shooting than melle the way the game works out. I play against them often. It's not just the squiggy that went down ether. They all did. Orks were already a top performing option. To get cuts like this is a joke. Plus. We all know the top marine factions are going to be nerfed. It would be insane for them not to be. Ironhands have like a 70% WR - Ultras are at like 52%. Do you realize what a massive difference that is? It is obviously something to do with Ironhands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
All aboard the Xeno freak out train.

LOL - you are defending double shooting and stacking multiple strats on units BTW. Clearly the worst parts of this edition. MTG 40k FTW.

Stating facts isn't freaking out ether.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/10 15:48:26


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You just said the Squig one was the best one. That's how we know you have no clue what you're on about.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You just said the Squig one was the best one. That's how we know you have no clue what you're on about.

LOL. It's clear you have no idea what you are talking about when you assume I am saying something stupid when the alternate meaning of what I was saying makes the most sense. It was clear I was talking about the units abilties as it was probably the worst performer at it's cost but has overall the best loadout. It doesn't deserve a 40% drop in cost though. That is asinine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 15:59:51


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

LOL - you are defending double shooting and stacking multiple strats on units BTW. Clearly the worst parts of this edition. MTG 40k FTW.


According to you.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stating facts isn't freaking out ether.


Yes it is. But keep trying. Someday you might actually be able to have a conversation on this board without devolving into a gibbering fit about whatever latest combination catches your eye.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





You do know that going from 140pts to 100pts is not a 40% drop, right?
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 bullyboy wrote:
You do know that going from 140pts to 100pts is not a 40% drop, right?
yeah - its more like a little under a 3rd. It's still insane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

LOL - you are defending double shooting and stacking multiple strats on units BTW. Clearly the worst parts of this edition. MTG 40k FTW.


According to you.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stating facts isn't freaking out ether.


Yes it is. But keep trying. Someday you might actually be able to have a conversation on this board without devolving into a gibbering fit about whatever latest combination catches your eye.
according to nearly anyone. If you like that style of play. You are in the minority.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 16:18:13


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





 Xenomancers wrote:
If you like that style of play. You are in the minority.


See? Right up until there, stating that he's in the minority requires data. I like the combos, I just like them to cost something, unlike Marines, who get strat level powers for free.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






 Xenomancers wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the ork point drops I've seen are equally if not more egregious. For some reason the best war-buggy (the squigbuggy) which was 140 points is now...100 points.

At this price it is probably fighting for best unit in the entire game.
The other buggys also saw significant drops. These were already some of the best units in the codex too for shooting units. A very uninformed choice from GW...

Meanwhile space marines tanks which are still pretty poor are made to suffer with no drops because ironhands superdoctrine exists and a few busted whitescars and ravengaurd traits.


Are you insane/trolling again? Honest question. You can't, with any sense of reasonable logic, honestly believe that -
a) The Squigbuggy is "fighting for best unit in the entire game"
b) Any of the buggies "were already some of the best units in the codex"
c) Space Marine tanks are "still pretty poor".

This must be a joke, right? If it's not Xeno I strongly suggest you invest a bit of time checking out Space Marine results compared to other factions' results over the past few months, as well as their lists. I also suggest you take a look at any Ork lists that finished in the top 4 over the last 2 years and see how many have your supposed "best war-buggy" the Squigbuggy in them (the answer is 0). In fact take a look how many lists included ANY buggies (the answer is 0 again).

You can't be taken seriously with all this rubbish you keep spouting and it's a shame because some of the stuff you say makes sense. Unfortunately people don't listen to you when you're talking sense because you spend so much time doing otherwise (as above).

I don't mean to be harsh here and apologies if it's too harsh. Really though, a little fact checking on your part would go a looooooooooooooooong way.

Once again we have someone looking at top tournament results and assuming that because the list they chose doesn't include x unit. That x unit is bad. At 140 the squid buggy was pretty bad. Not, lets drop the unit 40% bad though. That is a joke.

40/140*100%=29%
Ork buggies were already some of the best units in the codex for shooting.

What are you basing this on? If you've got math show it.

Squigbuggies are 11,11 pts per wound, Drukhari Ravagers are 12,5 pts per wound, they have a 5++ and FLY.

Adjusted for pts cost Squigbuggies do 1,94 S5 AP-3 2 damage hits, Ravagers do 6 S5 AP-3 2 damage hits, Squigbuggies have the utility of having alternate profiles and some small secondary weapons at close range.

Ravagers aren't good in the current meta and neither are Squigbuggies going to be. Add to that Orks having a difficult time putting together even a halfway mechanised competitive list and the 29% isn't that outrageous. Warbuggies are Legends now AFAIK, so unless someone converts some up or already owns them no more will enter circulation and banning them will become more common in the future if just one Legends unit ever becomes too OP. Compared to Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers I can't see Warbuggies at 43/57 as being too OP. Much less than a similar amount of pts worth og Boyz or Smasha Gunz.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/10 18:53:55


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

See? Right up until there, stating that he's in the minority requires data. I like the combos, I just like them to cost something, unlike Marines, who get strat level powers for free.


Thats the problem with living in a permanent state of hyperbolic overreaction. The data never supports the rhetoric.
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 Xenomancers wrote:

Eldar is a mess. Some good drops...Hemlock drops in price??? Meanwhile the CHE raised while not raising the regular crimson hunter while simultaneously dropping bright lances?? BL drop is pretty welcome but then why the heck am I paying 25 for a lascannon still? Infantry are still overcosted as crap...guardians 8 points? DE 11? Give me a break these units need to come down to 6 and 9 respectively. Have not reviewed thoroughly enough.

Hemlocks didnt change, theyre still 210.
Bright lances didnt drop, theyre still 20 pts (and theyre cheaper than lascannons becaure theyre : 36" 8 -4 D6 instead of 48" 9 -3 D6)

   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Xenomancers wrote:
Once again we have someone looking at top tournament results and assuming that because the list they chose doesn't include x unit. That x unit is bad.

You assume way, waay too much. I'm using tournament results and data to back up what I already know through my own testing and trials. Trust me, I desperately WANT to be able to use the new Buggies without giving my opponent a free win. I tried, real hard, to make the various buggies work, they didn't. Not at their previous price. That's why you didn't see them in top performing tournament lists, they didn't perform.
At 140 the squid buggy was pretty bad.

It was a joke at 140. Do you even know it's profile and stats?
Not, lets drop the unit 40% bad though.
Worse.
That is a joke.
It is STILL not competitive, you realise this yea?
Ork buggies were already some of the best units in the codex for shooting.
Can you explain exactly what you mean by this? "Some of the best units in the codex for shooting" - what does this mean, even? They were/are awful units. There's no point having any shooting if you die so quick you never get to use it. The shooting isn't even particularly strong. It's awful, in fact.
Unfortunately orks are much better at shooting than melle the way the game works out.
No, what you mean is "the only competitive Ork build is a primarily shooting list currently".
I play against them often.
Do you? I don't believe you. You thought Boyz still cost 6ppm for pete's sake.
It's not just the squiggy that went down ether. They all did.
All the Buggies you mean? Justifiably so. None. I repeat - none. Were ever taken in competitive lists. They were/are awful.
Orks were already a top performing option.
No they aren't. Not anymore. Not since Marines.
To get cuts like this is a joke.
No it isn't, the only joke is how little they were cut considering other factions' alternatives and our utter lack of a decent competitive build in the marine meta.
Plus. We all know the top marine factions are going to be nerfed.
Do we? Do you know something we don't? Didn't CA BUFF Marines further still? Now THAT is a joke and perhaps why you are so insistent on moaning about other factions cuts - to take the glare away from your own, broken faction.
It would be insane for them not to be. Ironhands have like a 70% WR - Ultras are at like 52%. Do you realize what a massive difference that is? It is obviously something to do with Ironhands.
Yes it would be insane for them not to be. ALL Marine sub factions need a nerf. Including Ultras. The only factions Ultras lose to is, you guessed it, other Marines. They beat almost every other faction in the game more often than not and by a massive margin. It is not just IH at all. I have proved this time and time again, why do you keep ignoring the facts?
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yes it would be insane for them not to be. ALL Marine sub factions need a nerf. Including Ultras. The only factions Ultras lose to is, you guessed it, other Marines. They beat almost every other faction in the game more often than not and by a massive margin. It is not just IH at all. I have proved this time and time again, why do you keep ignoring the facts?


He plays Ultramarines and cognitive bias is a helluva drug.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Squigbuggy's shooting is worth about 50 points.
This isn't a wind up - its what one inaccurate disi or a d3 damage assault cannon or "worse than a pair of venom cannons but with more range" is worth.
Its rubbish. Needs a hard faq to get double the shots on all profiles - preferably triple and it can then go back up a bit in points.

The boostablasta can sit at 36" - but its just... bad if it does so. Even with th reductions its still 80 points for 3 lootas with an extra point of AP - who are much worse to buff up (or hope you get those 3 shots). You need to get into 8" for the flamers but this is hard to pull off and its still mediocre at best.

The Snazzwagon is in a similar boat. Haha - 4 big shootas, three with two points of AP! Great, but its still Ork BS. Its not impressing anyone. I feel you are paying for the -1 to hit and 4+ explodes rule. Run them in, deal some inconsequential firepower, die, and hopefully scatter mortal wounds all over your opponent.

The points reductions are about to the level I think they should have started at - but they are not priced to be competitive in the current meta. Its priced not to be a laughing stock on casual tables.

Both suffer I think from the fact a few more points nets you 4 big shootas and on average 5 rockits. This is the sort of upgrade you want on your other buggies for a few inconsequential points.

The Dragsta is still a bit north of the 80 points I think would make it an auto-take - but some accurate firepower is nice (although just bring more smasha guns), and the teleport ability is good in many missions where you want to get "something" onto a specific objective, and don't always have da Jump handy.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Eldar is a mess. Some good drops...Hemlock drops in price??? Meanwhile the CHE raised while not raising the regular crimson hunter while simultaneously dropping bright lances?? BL drop is pretty welcome but then why the heck am I paying 25 for a lascannon still? Infantry are still overcosted as crap...guardians 8 points? DE 11? Give me a break these units need to come down to 6 and 9 respectively. Have not reviewed thoroughly enough.

Hemlocks didnt change, theyre still 210.
Bright lances didnt drop, theyre still 20 pts (and theyre cheaper than lascannons becaure theyre : 36" 8 -4 D6 instead of 48" 9 -3 D6)


Bright lances are 15. Hemlocks went down in price. Have you not seen the book?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You just said the Squig one was the best one. That's how we know you have no clue what you're on about.

LOL. It's clear you have no idea what you are talking about when you assume I am saying something stupid when the alternate meaning of what I was saying makes the most sense. It was clear I was talking about the units abilties as it was probably the worst performer at it's cost but has overall the best loadout. It doesn't deserve a 40% drop in cost though. That is asinine.


Hahaha. What drugs you are using? As only drug induced hallucinations explain those claim. Squigbuggy still is worst of the lot and sucks. Frankly none of the buggies are competive but with new prices not worst junk

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Xenomancers wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember when Ultramarines were going to be trash?
They are legit the worst marine chapter. You might be right with me there with black templars. They are significantly weaker. Likely the difference between GK and the middle tier is the same difference between Ultras and Iron-hands in terms of power. That is what I was squawking about. It is evident by tournament results too.


They're at a 52.5% win rate, just 2.5% behind Raven Guard and White Scars, and comfortably ahead of Salamanders (not including BT since F&F is relatively new). There's a colossal difference between "weaker than some other Marine Chapters but still able to slug it out with competetive armies" and "trash".

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You just said the Squig one was the best one. That's how we know you have no clue what you're on about.

LOL. It's clear you have no idea what you are talking about when you assume I am saying something stupid when the alternate meaning of what I was saying makes the most sense. It was clear I was talking about the units abilties as it was probably the worst performer at it's cost but has overall the best loadout. It doesn't deserve a 40% drop in cost though. That is asinine.

Loadout only matters at the cost. So no you're still wrong and you should probably just admit it at this point.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Junior Officer with Laspistol






I just took a quick look at the squiggbuggy and I'm also... lets say surprised that one could consider those to compete for best unit even at 100 points. When I compare it to IG Tauros Assault Vehicles with Grenade launchers (which is definitly no competetive choice and the GL is stupidly expensive, but the model and weapons are quite comparable):

You get almost 2 Tauros (114) for one Squigbuggy (now 100). If you compare it to the old cost you could even add two Hunter Killer missiles and be still cheaper than 140 points.

The Tauri
- are faster (M14 vs. M10)
- sturdier (T5, 2 x W6, 4+,5++ vs T6, W9, 4+)
- a bit weaker in melee (both have A4 at WS4 but the Buggy has + 2S and -1AP)
- quite comparably in the firepower department:

Boom Squiggs are almost identical to Krak missiles, the buggy does on average 2.66 hits, the Tauri 2, so the buggy is slightly better
on average 4,67 Bile Squig hits wounding non vehicles at 4+ vs on average 7 Frag grenades => the Buggy is better against T6+ non vehicles and equal against T4-5 non.vehicles. Otherwise it is worse.
bitey Squigs are not really comparable, but mathhammering around they only beat the Tauri Krak Grenades vs T3,T4,T7+ with a 2+ save and no Invulnarability save and then only by a hair.
The Buggy now still has his shotgun and grenades and DAKKADAKKADAKKA going for him, so I would say he has a slight advantage in firepower overall at 100 points.

So taken together I would argue: The Squigbuggy is not really better than 2 Tauri which are a very uncompetitive choice for guard. At 140 points he would be more expensive than those two vehicles who could then even pack two Hunter Killer missiles and still be cheaper. At 100 points I personally would say he is fairly costed against the Tauri - which is still not really fair against the rest of the IG codex, let alone some options of other factions.

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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember when Ultramarines were going to be trash?
They are legit the worst marine chapter. You might be right with me there with black templars. They are significantly weaker. Likely the difference between GK and the middle tier is the same difference between Ultras and Iron-hands in terms of power. That is what I was squawking about. It is evident by tournament results too.


They're at a 52.5% win rate, just 2.5% behind Raven Guard and White Scars, and comfortably ahead of Salamanders (not including BT since F&F is relatively new). There's a colossal difference between "weaker than some other Marine Chapters but still able to slug it out with competetive armies" and "trash".

I have long stated that Ultramarines are where space marines should be in terms of power. Ultras have comparable WR to strong competitive armies like Eldar and tau. There should be aproximately 0 outrage coming for Ultras compared to tau and eldar. Tau got hugely buffed too.

There really is a colossal difference between ultras and other marines. As Ultras win at about the same rate as other powerful factions. The busted supplements (Ironhands/IF/RG/WS) in that order are significant outliers. Ironhands win 70% of their damn games dude.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Eldar is a mess. Some good drops...Hemlock drops in price??? Meanwhile the CHE raised while not raising the regular crimson hunter while simultaneously dropping bright lances?? BL drop is pretty welcome but then why the heck am I paying 25 for a lascannon still? Infantry are still overcosted as crap...guardians 8 points? DE 11? Give me a break these units need to come down to 6 and 9 respectively. Have not reviewed thoroughly enough.

Hemlocks didnt change, theyre still 210.
Bright lances didnt drop, theyre still 20 pts (and theyre cheaper than lascannons becaure theyre : 36" 8 -4 D6 instead of 48" 9 -3 D6)


Bright lances are 15. Hemlocks went down in price. Have you not seen the book?


Dark lances are 15, not bright lances. Twin bright lances dropped to 35pts. Hemlocks are still 210...

Stop talking out of your ass.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 21:30:18


 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember when Ultramarines were going to be trash?
They are legit the worst marine chapter. You might be right with me there with black templars. They are significantly weaker. Likely the difference between GK and the middle tier is the same difference between Ultras and Iron-hands in terms of power. That is what I was squawking about. It is evident by tournament results too.


They're at a 52.5% win rate, just 2.5% behind Raven Guard and White Scars, and comfortably ahead of Salamanders (not including BT since F&F is relatively new). There's a colossal difference between "weaker than some other Marine Chapters but still able to slug it out with competetive armies" and "trash".

I have long stated that Ultramarines are where space marines should be in terms of power. Ultras have comparable WR to strong competitive armies like Eldar and tau. There should be aproximately 0 outrage coming for Ultras compared to tau and eldar. Tau got hugely buffed too.

There really is a colossal difference between ultras and other marines. As Ultras win at about the same rate as other powerful factions. The busted supplements (Ironhands/IF/RG/WS) in that order are significant outliers. Ironhands win 70% of their damn games dude.



Iron Hands win 65%, not 70%, but that's beside the point. You said that the Ultramarines were going to be trash; they're not.

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 Xenomancers wrote:
I have long stated that Ultramarines are where space marines should be in terms of power. Ultras have comparable WR to strong competitive armies like Eldar and tau. There should be aproximately 0 outrage coming for Ultras compared to tau and eldar.


Wow, that's super, and completely useless, since that win rate would be significantly higher if they weren't running into other absurdly overpowered Marine lists that are lowering that win percentage. We've basically moved into the 'good guy with a gun' narrative portion of the argument.

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One man versus statistics and tournament results, who will win?

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
 
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