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Of course you feel like you have to bring +400-500 points of more stuff if you played 1500 points years ago and you play 2000 now...

 Blackie wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Out of curiosity I ran my old 1850 sisters list. A little over 2000 with the beta points, looks like a couple of hundred more on top after the codex releases. High vehicle costs while infantry keep dropping.

Again, 1850 wasn't the standard in 5th edition though. To make an honest comparison you should fit that army in a 2250-2500 points one in 8th edition.

Well if I stuck another 150pts of units on that list i'd not expect the 8e one to get any cheaper.

5 celestines, 2 meltas, and an immolator would add 150 in 5e (3e witch hunters) and 181 points in the betadex for instance. Something purely infantry based like seraphim or an inquisitor/assassin wouldn't add as much.

Really the normal points need to go down. 2000 is too much IMHO. 1850, 1750 or even 1500 would be much better. From what i've seen there have been a few european tournaments that do 1750 and I think the "official" GW GT at Warhammer World uses 1750 too. So that should be the standard since it's what the "official" tournament uses.

Of course in the USA ITC has decided on 2k and that is the standard, with no indication of changing. Whether or not thats really because people want 2k (which why wouldn't they? More points = more toys) is up for debate though but ITC needs to also standardize on 1750 if you ask me.

Wayniac wrote:
Really the normal points need to go down. 2000 is too much IMHO. 1850, 1750 or even 1500 would be much better. From what i've seen there have been a few european tournaments that do 1750 and I think the "official" GW GT at Warhammer World uses 1750 too. So that should be the standard since it's what the "official" tournament uses.

Of course in the USA ITC has decided on 2k and that is the standard, with no indication of changing. Whether or not thats really because people want 2k (which why wouldn't they? More points = more toys) is up for debate though but ITC needs to also standardize on 1750 if you ask me.

In previous editions I felt suitably hampered by 1750, because it was much harder to fit in the things I needed as compared to other armies. Stepping down in points can have adverse consequences - especially when knights are a thing (and marines).

Does it equally present problems in 8th? I don't know until we try, but I think this will be pretty unlikely to happen regardless.

Point levels are not the issue as long poor external balance + IGOUGO exist at once.

You can double everything in price and still be at a disadvantage play your new 2000 points because the opponent still brought Numarines or Eldar or even just plain CSM and you're playing Grey Knights or Harlequins or non-consolidated Marines. Point levels don't affect this in any manner and people need to realize that.

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Rokkit Warbuggies are 57 points a piece, pushing both of your mech list into the extra 100-200 points needed to play them and thus proving my point.

Well buggies are index only, and index units are extremely overpriced, not only ork ones. They are a phased out unit, if they were included in the codex they'd be 35-40 points. Rokkit koptas from index were 83 (!!!) points IIRC.

You aren't shy of making up arguments in order to prove your point, are you?
Buggies got a huge point reduction in CA to - guess what? 35 points, 5 points more than what they were in 5th. What making them expensive is the dual rokkit which is 24 now and was 5 points back them.
And the best part? Even at 35-40, your lists would be way over 1500 points - the only reason your calculation worked out is because you intentionally omitted 2-3 models.
Oh, and I never mentioned buggies, you are the one who brought them up.

But your point was biased since the beginning. You played at 2000 points 10 years ago when the standard was way lower.

You provided two lists at 1500 points, which also came out a lot higher than they are now. Which means you are wrong at both 1500 and 2000 points. Plus, you don't get to decide what the standard is/was. 2000 points was just as common as 1500, probably just not in your area. The battle wagon bash list was a 2000 points only archetype which didn't work at 1500 points. Up to that level you would play a kan wall, which didn't scale well beyond that. Because you couldn't bring more kans or bring more boyz to bear.
For proof, just check the army list forum of dakkadakka between 2010 and 2011. Or any wargaming blog that was around back then.

I also showed you some lists that are basically the same in terms of points and other units that have become cheaper, sometimes even way cheaper.

You mean those where you intentionally left out 100-200 points of models to prove your point?

As a matter of fact, all ork armies I played during 5th have gone up in points, since I was primarily running mech orks. These are absolute facts, not a matter of opinion.

the_scotsman wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I don't know what the fix is. Previous edition rules were slow but the result was more immersion and more meaningful gameplay.

I'd imagine it's difficult to roll things back at this point short of splitting the game into apoc (current rules) and skirmish... but then people will just complain until they have all their apoc stuff in skirmish and around it goes. And I doubt GW has any interest in a revised oldhammer game.

Ironically we have apoc and it is far, farrrrrrr less ridiculously lethal.

Play a current 2k sized army in apoc and 1/3 of your force will be alive turn 5 if you lose the game.

I've been playing quite a lot of apoc for exactly that reason!

 Jidmah wrote:

You provided two lists at 1500 points, which also came out a lot higher than they are now. Which means you are wrong at both 1500 and 2000 points. Plus, you don't get to decide what the standard is/was. 2000 points was just as common as 1500, probably just not in your area. The battle wagon bash list was a 2000 points only archetype which didn't work at 1500 points. Up to that level you would play a kan wall, which didn't scale well beyond that. Because you couldn't bring more kans or bring more boyz to bear.
For proof, just check the army list forum of dakkadakka between 2010 and 2011. Or any wargaming blog that was around back then.

I think you missed the point here. Even if the 2000 points format was as common as 1500 (and I'm sure overall it wasn't but let assume it was) now the 1500 points format is dead. Which means that standard games have on average way more models than before. Yes someone used to play at 2000 points and they now can't fit the same lists using the same models by 100-200 points, which is just 5-10% of the list anyway, but many others were playing at 1500 points. These are absolute facts, not a matter of opinion The misconception of fielding less models than before comes from your personal experience, it's an absolute fact that now armies are significantly bigger than the average 5th edition ones, also due to the lack of old smaller formats: now the there aren't different standards that are equally common, there's only the bigger one. .

Here there are people that regularly play at 2500 points or even more (heck, even in 3rd edition I remember games of 3000 points). If 9th or 10th edition adopted their formats as the new standard they could complain that their older armies don't fit the new edition, but many other players would probably have to add something rather than cutting.

 Jidmah wrote:

You mean those where you intentionally left out 100-200 points of models to prove your point?

No, I made the examples of meganobz, grotsnink and wazzdakka among others. The list with biker troops was complete and actually cheaper than a specular 8th edition one. The meganobz+grotsnik+trukk combo is 65+ points cheaper now, while any biker character (index biker boss or mek and even the wartrike) is cheaper than the old biker boss or that named character. A unit of nobz in a trukk or BW is certainly cheaper now: the banner got a new profile and it's +30 pts but now we hit on 3s anyway, so we basically have the banner for free. Nobz are 14ppm including the 4+ save (they were 25 pts with eavy armor) so 5 or 10 nobz can be extremely cheaper than before, not to mention the pk drop. 5 nobz were a deathstar of 250ish points (with no transport or bike factored in) back in 5th edition.

If you need other examples of units that are cheaper now than in 5th here you go:

footslogging warboss with pk and 4+: -12 pts
big mek with SAG: -15 pts
big mek with KFF: -10 pts
snikrot: -15 ppm
badrukk: -47 ppm
burnaboyz: -3 ppm
kommandos: -2 ppm (and nob upgrade for free for another -10, not to mention the saved points for pole and klaw)
stormboyz: -3 ppm (same as above)
bikers: -2 ppm (same as above)
kopta with KMB: -1 ppm

But also the weirdboyz can be cheaper since it's +7ppm than the basic old one but -23 compared to the warphead, min squads of gretchins are -10 points per units (how many people would take the runtherd in 5th if it wasn't mandatory?), flash gitz are +5ppm but gained 4+ save and to have the same gun older ones should pay for kustom job making them more expensive than the current unit. Painboyz are +15ppm but gained a klaw and they're not restricted to be included and buff those specific couple of units.

If your army actually went up a little bit in points it doesn't mean that all older orks lists did the same. And I've showed you at least one list that I played that is actually cheaper, but I can make several other ones also cheaper. I've posted those specific lists because I played exactly those ones in old tournaments but I had models left out from those lists that were expensive and couldn't fit in 5th edition while they can now. I don't contest that your specific list doesn't fit, if I did it's my mistake, but you sounded like all the 5th edition players had to give up models in order to fit the 8th edition standard format, and that's completely false. That's my point.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, and I apologies for that, I didn't mean to say that your specific list should absolutely fit the same format shifting from editions, but that on average, considering the entire codexes, there's not a huge difference between points costs. And now, also speaking on average, games have more models than before. That's not an opinion.

So yeah, all the debate to quote the OP: yes, 40k has lost its way IMHO and the new standard is too high. We now have the same killyness and roll the same amount of dice than 3000+ points older armies.

 some bloke wrote:

They made the game too fast.

Really? In 3rd edition, especially with local GW stores featuring 4x4 tables exclusively to fit more tables per sq ft, many many people simply ran BA armies with a lightning claw chaplain and a jump pack in front of Death Company and were assaulting in turn 2. Most armies were wiped out around turn 4. My Kult of Speed was always in assault by round 2. There were Armored Companies that could cover your entire deployment zone in templates in 1 volley. You could easily get through 4 or 5 matches in an afternoon.

sitz wrote:
In 3rd edition, especially with local GW stores featuring 4x4 tables exclusively to fit more tables per sq ft, many many people simply ran BA armies with a lightning claw chaplain and a jump pack in front of Death Company and were assaulting in turn 2. [...] My Kult of Speed was always in assault by round 2.

I remember that. However, let us not forget that turn 2 charges meant that you had at least one turn to prepare when facing one of these superfast mechanized assault-optimized armies. You could re-position your forces so they hit a speed bump unit and then were left in a killzone. You could try to shoot the biggest threats before they hit you. You could dig into cover so your guys would be fighting simultaneously or even first. And so on.

Those are options you don't generally get today against a similarly optimized assault army today, because they can charge you in the first turn. So if they go first, your only chance to prepare was earlier in the deployment phase, and it's quite possible for you to lose the initiative and a large part of your army before you've gotten a chance to do *anything.* This is just.... not fun.

Last night I watched a game between two friends at my local game store, Ultramarines Vs. Catachan Artillery.

Ultramarine player went first, deepstruck 25 Hellblasters and two Invictus Warsuits within an inch of the guard deployment zone and the game was over. This was the first time our local guard guy was ever tabled since 8th began. He's one of our best players.

What is the fun in a 30 minute game where only one of the two players gets to even have a turn?

Well the marine player wins, and if it is a store event game, this means he has a chance to get prizes. Both things are good and fun.

Karol wrote:
Well the marine player wins, and if it is a store event game, this means he has a chance to get prizes. Both things are good and fun.

No.

Why would you even bother playing, just say "Ultramarines win" collect trophy and leave. I can't believe how broken the ultramarines are. The reroll everything, all the damn time. If you shoot them, you get shot in return on a 4+ thanks to that banner.

 Togusa wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well the marine player wins, and if it is a store event game, this means he has a chance to get prizes. Both things are good and fun.

No.

Why would you even bother playing, just say "Ultramarines win" collect trophy and leave. I can't believe how broken the ultramarines are. The reroll everything, all the damn time. If you shoot them, you get shot in return on a 4+ thanks to that banner.

I understand that there has to be something hidden in the question, that I don't get. But collect trophy and leave, is kind of a how every game works. I go to a sports school, gloating after you win isn't something people like to see, even those from your school.

So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.

 Smirrors wrote:
So in summary remove massive reroll auras and remove stratagems that allow many units to attack twice and then repoint units based on their base performance and tweak rules for units that lost out. This will speed the game up too.

This... Id go further and remove modifiers as well..
Like maybe one or two abiltiies/strats allowing for re-roll 1's situationally.

Bring back hard cover and difficult terrain.

Call me mad. Go on call me mad I say!!!!

 Blackie wrote:
TL;DR

You are contradicting yourself so often, apply different standards to your and my arguments, keep making up weird unit combinations that make absolutely no sense to prove your point and then finish off with a conclusion that has absolutely nothing to do with your original, objectively wrong, statement to declare yourself right from the beginning.

None of that is actually worth answering in detail. Just accept when you are wrong.

 Togusa wrote:
Last night I watched a game between two friends at my local game store, Ultramarines Vs. Catachan Artillery.

Ultramarine player went first, deepstruck 25 Hellblasters and two Invictus Warsuits within an inch of the guard deployment zone and the game was over. This was the first time our local guard guy was ever tabled since 8th began. He's one of our best players.

What is the fun in a 30 minute game where only one of the two players gets to even have a turn?

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought it wasn't possible to deepstrike before turn 2. How'd the marine player pull that off without drop pods?

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Last night I watched a game between two friends at my local game store, Ultramarines Vs. Catachan Artillery.

Ultramarine player went first, deepstruck 25 Hellblasters and two Invictus Warsuits within an inch of the guard deployment zone and the game was over. This was the first time our local guard guy was ever tabled since 8th began. He's one of our best players.

What is the fun in a 30 minute game where only one of the two players gets to even have a turn?

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought it wasn't possible to deepstrike before turn 2. How'd the marine player pull that off without drop pods?

That game also lists the primary issues with IGOUGO not that some people want to admit it's a garbage system.

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Last night I watched a game between two friends at my local game store, Ultramarines Vs. Catachan Artillery.

Ultramarine player went first, deepstruck 25 Hellblasters and two Invictus Warsuits within an inch of the guard deployment zone and the game was over. This was the first time our local guard guy was ever tabled since 8th began. He's one of our best players.

What is the fun in a 30 minute game where only one of the two players gets to even have a turn?

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought it wasn't possible to deepstrike before turn 2. How'd the marine player pull that off without drop pods?

Good question.

My money is on true infiltrate vanguard deployment shenanigans but thought that was a RG thing. I don't have all the supplements/rules so I'm only going by bat reps I've seen/games I've seen.
I.E. You deploy 1" outside of enemies deployment zone/9" away from enemies. Lots of armies had such abilities and were essentialy T1 DS (scout move for sentinels, War walkers or Ranger units etc.) It all got FAQ to count as DS and DS being a T2 restriction. (Naturaly Marine dreadnaughts are better at infiltrating and being sneaky than Eldar rangers... Sounds Legit)

The SM rules circumvent that as its done during deployment. So if you are going first you have essentially DS stuff on top of enemies. Even though technically it is not arriving as reinforcements (but lets be honest its probably better as you get to move). This allows to really stack the deck if you likely to go first as well as offer huge advantage in board control.

Maybe it's just me but every 8th edition game I've played no one got tabled. I've had a few 4 player games but mostly 1 on 1 but every one has come down to victory points. Granted I play with the same group consistently so maybe it's just how our armies are built and how we happen to play. I'm sure none of us are playing the meta, after all.

The big changes that need to happen imo....(at least for the game to be better for tournament play/competitive play).

1. No more IGOUGO, other systems are far better than one player losing 20% of his army before his turn (more if you play against space marines). Honestly I like bolt actions way, definitely gives for a more balanced turn.

2. We need to go back to very few things having armor pen values.

3. Auras need to go, characters can join units again and buff them that way.

4. Command points and strats need to go, make units unique and give them rules again. Between how innately unbalanced some command points are compared to others, CP batteries, and just the amount of CP some armies get...wayyyyy to much balance swings... (sure, they are neat and can be fun...but at tournament level they get really out of hand)

 Togusa wrote:
Last night I watched a game between two friends at my local game store, Ultramarines Vs. Catachan Artillery.

Ultramarine player went first, deepstruck 25 Hellblasters and two Invictus Warsuits within an inch of the guard deployment zone and the game was over. This was the first time our local guard guy was ever tabled since 8th began. He's one of our best players.

What is the fun in a 30 minute game where only one of the two players gets to even have a turn?

Yeay, time to play a different game!
But seriously, I don't understand this reasononing either,
that the game is better because you can play through faster with everything you want on the table - boom crash!

And because the first game takes so little time, you can do it again - boom crash!

Just, infantile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
The big changes that need to happen imo....(at least for the game to be better for tournament play/competitive play).

1. No more IGOUGO, other systems are far better than one player losing 20% of his army before his turn (more if you play against space marines). Honestly I like bolt actions way, definitely gives for a more balanced turn.

2. We need to go back to very few things having armor pen values.

3. Auras need to go, characters can join units again and buff them that way.

4. Command points and strats need to go, make units unique and give them rules again. Between how innately unbalanced some command points are compared to others, CP batteries, and just the amount of CP some armies get...wayyyyy to much balance swings... (sure, they are neat and can be fun...but at tournament level they get really out of hand)

Agreed. Less of a card game.
And impulsors/yada need tracks.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
The big changes that need to happen imo....(at least for the game to be better for tournament play/competitive play).

1. No more IGOUGO, other systems are far better than one player losing 20% of his army before his turn (more if you play against space marines). Honestly I like bolt actions way, definitely gives for a more balanced turn.

2. We need to go back to very few things having armor pen values.

Agree.

3. Auras need to go, characters can join units again and buff them that way.

All auras or just the re-roll auras? IMO none of the utility auras are causing any notable problems.
I also remember all the unit joining rules to be nothing less but a huge mess. I'd rather have the buff characters select units to support (like Immotekh or Tor Garadon) and keep the characters rules as is, maybe with some limitation to how characters can hide.

4. Command points and strats need to go, make units unique and give them rules again. Between how innately unbalanced some command points are compared to others, CP batteries, and just the amount of CP some armies get...wayyyyy to much balance swings... (sure, they are neat and can be fun...but at tournament level they get really out of hand)

I think the entire stratagem problem would solve itself when you can only play 1-2 stratagems per turn instead of just answering "Which stratagem do you want to use?" with "Yes".

Just my two cents, if we're wishlisting. I'm probably gonna get roasted for some of these ideas, but they're just my opinions and I am prone to forgetting/failing to consider something.

1- Incentivize mono-faction under 1000 points. Soup shouldn't even exist at this level (Inquisition, Assassins, etc. can get a pass if certain requirements are met).

2- Take a note from Horus Heresy, and establish HQ 'tiers'- require certain point levels, detachments, and even units to have a certain "level" of HQ as a tax.

3- Require army point and HQ level minimums for LoW and Flyers. There's no reason a Knight should appear in a 500-point game. And "pLaY tHe ObJeCtIvEs" only works while you still have models on the table.

4- Make weapon turrets and locations matter, perhaps on a card for easy reference for the vehicle.

5- Require a certain % of a model to be visible in order for it to shoot or be shot, and exclude protrusions such as antennae, spines, etc. True Line of Sight is a joke.

6- Cover should make you harder to hit, not harder when you get hit.

7- Establish a clear balance for each faction's capability to deal or mitigate mortal wounds- and limiting the amount possible through some means might be an option.

8- Auras should be gone, because bubbles of dudes marching across the table isn't fun. Make these auras some kind of buff that can be applied to one or more units, depending on the HQ level.

9- Stop restricting valid units to "exactly the things in and on the box", it reduces conversion/kitbashing to being aesthetics without function and has no incentive.

10- Subfaction super-doctrines should be taxed as a purchased package during list creation, sort of like Formations in AoS. Require and restrict units as required for balance.

11- Offer an upgrade to 'level up' select units to Veteran Status with additional attack.

12- Rework transports from the ground up, incentivize their use and make them worth taking again, but not a requirement for infantry.

13- Bring back vehicle damage rolls and combine them with the wound track system, make the performance of a damaged vehicle more random and unpredictable.

14- Develop additional means for charging out of deep strike- it shouldn't be able to happen all the time, but there should be ways to reliably execute this for melee-focused units.

15- Bring Horus Heresy models into 40k, I'm sure all 10 people on each continent that still play HH won't be bothered by that at all.

16- Consider "Underdog Strategems" that only work when players have a large VP disparity (maybe optional?)

Open to other thoughts.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
TL;DR

You are contradicting yourself so often, apply different standards to your and my arguments, keep making up weird unit combinations that make absolutely no sense to prove your point and then finish off with a conclusion that has absolutely nothing to do with your original, objectively wrong, statement to declare yourself right from the beginning.

None of that is actually worth answering in detail. Just accept when you are wrong.

Yeah, I intended your original post as: "I'm complaining about orks being more expensive than older editions", not "My specific list that I used to play 10+ years ago doesn't fit the 2000 points format now and I'm complaining about that even if I'm completely ignoring units that now cost less points because they weren't part of my favorite 5th edition list". That's my bad.

I said you're wrong because as I intended your post you've been disohnest as you can field a lot of things now that were simply too expensive before. Some things went up, but many other ones went down and some 5th edition 2000 points lists can easily be just 1800-1900 in 8th. Haven't you played grotsnik or SAG big mek in this edition? It's a 90 points discount just with those two dudes.

In fact the majority of the units/wargear included in the codex is actually cheaper than it used to be in 5th edition. This is a fact on which I based my discussion, if you can't agree with that just grab an old codex e check yourself. And just out of curiosity, what are the weird combinations you are talking about? I made just one, which I actually played and played against not only in that specific edition, but it's irrelevant since taking the single units (and not the combination) you'll end up with the same result. Meganobz being 5ppm cheaper and grotsnik being 74ppm cheaper.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Just my two cents, if we're wishlisting. I'm probably gonna get roasted for some of these ideas, but they're just my opinions and I am prone to forgetting/failing to consider something.

1- Incentivize mono-faction under 1000 points. Soup shouldn't even exist at this level (Inquisition, Assassins, etc. can get a pass if certain requirements are met).

2- Take a note from Horus Heresy, and establish HQ 'tiers'- require certain point levels, detachments, and even units to have a certain "level" of HQ as a tax.

3- Require army point and HQ level minimums for LoW and Flyers. There's no reason a Knight should appear in a 500-point game. And "pLaY tHe ObJeCtIvEs" only works while you still have models on the table.

4- Make weapon turrets and locations matter, perhaps on a card for easy reference for the vehicle.

5- Require a certain % of a model to be visible in order for it to shoot or be shot, and exclude protrusions such as antennae, spines, etc. True Line of Sight is a joke.

6- Cover should make you harder to hit, not harder when you get hit.

7- Establish a clear balance for each faction's capability to deal or mitigate mortal wounds- and limiting the amount possible through some means might be an option.

8- Auras should be gone, because bubbles of dudes marching across the table isn't fun. Make these auras some kind of buff that can be applied to one or more units, depending on the HQ level.

9- Stop restricting valid units to "exactly the things in and on the box", it reduces conversion/kitbashing to being aesthetics without function and has no incentive.

10- Subfaction super-doctrines should be taxed as a purchased package during list creation, sort of like Formations in AoS. Require and restrict units as required for balance.

11- Offer an upgrade to 'level up' select units to Veteran Status with additional attack.

12- Rework transports from the ground up, incentivize their use and make them worth taking again, but not a requirement for infantry.

13- Bring back vehicle damage rolls and combine them with the wound track system, make the performance of a damaged vehicle more random and unpredictable.

14- Develop additional means for charging out of deep strike- it shouldn't be able to happen all the time, but there should be ways to reliably execute this for melee-focused units.

15- Bring Horus Heresy models into 40k, I'm sure all 10 people on each continent that still play HH won't be bothered by that at all.

16- Consider "Underdog Strategems" that only work when players have a large VP disparity (maybe optional?)

Open to other thoughts.

Oo forgot one. Just lose mortal wounds...period

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
The big changes that need to happen imo....(at least for the game to be better for tournament play/competitive play).

1. No more IGOUGO, other systems are far better than one player losing 20% of his army before his turn (more if you play against space marines). Honestly I like bolt actions way, definitely gives for a more balanced turn.

2. We need to go back to very few things having armor pen values.

3. Auras need to go, characters can join units again and buff them that way.

4. Command points and strats need to go, make units unique and give them rules again. Between how innately unbalanced some command points are compared to others, CP batteries, and just the amount of CP some armies get...wayyyyy to much balance swings... (sure, they are neat and can be fun...but at tournament level they get really out of hand)

I disagree on the 1 and 3 points but about point 2 I think high AP weapons should be harder to spam. Same options than now but harder to spam. Clan bonuses and auras are healthy for the game, and auras are definitely better than deathstars. About stratagems I can agree, I think a game with no stratagems at all is more fun, but unfortunately some units have a points value that includes the possible buff by stratagem and they'd be quite overcosted without the specific stratagems that make them work. Maybe fixing the total amount of CP to a maximum of 15 could help, along with raising the most powerful ones like "shooting twice" to 3-4 CPs instead of just 2.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Just my two cents, if we're wishlisting. I'm probably gonna get roasted for some of these ideas, but they're just my opinions and I am prone to forgetting/failing to consider something.

1- Incentivize mono-faction under 1000 points. Soup shouldn't even exist at this level (Inquisition, Assassins, etc. can get a pass if certain requirements are met).

2- Take a note from Horus Heresy, and establish HQ 'tiers'- require certain point levels, detachments, and even units to have a certain "level" of HQ as a tax.

3- Require army point and HQ level minimums for LoW and Flyers. There's no reason a Knight should appear in a 500-point game. And "pLaY tHe ObJeCtIvEs" only works while you still have models on the table.

4- Make weapon turrets and locations matter, perhaps on a card for easy reference for the vehicle.

5- Require a certain % of a model to be visible in order for it to shoot or be shot, and exclude protrusions such as antennae, spines, etc. True Line of Sight is a joke.

6- Cover should make you harder to hit, not harder when you get hit.

7- Establish a clear balance for each faction's capability to deal or mitigate mortal wounds- and limiting the amount possible through some means might be an option.

8- Auras should be gone, because bubbles of dudes marching across the table isn't fun. Make these auras some kind of buff that can be applied to one or more units, depending on the HQ level.

9- Stop restricting valid units to "exactly the things in and on the box", it reduces conversion/kitbashing to being aesthetics without function and has no incentive.

10- Subfaction super-doctrines should be taxed as a purchased package during list creation, sort of like Formations in AoS. Require and restrict units as required for balance.

11- Offer an upgrade to 'level up' select units to Veteran Status with additional attack.

12- Rework transports from the ground up, incentivize their use and make them worth taking again, but not a requirement for infantry.

13- Bring back vehicle damage rolls and combine them with the wound track system, make the performance of a damaged vehicle more random and unpredictable.

14- Develop additional means for charging out of deep strike- it shouldn't be able to happen all the time, but there should be ways to reliably execute this for melee-focused units.

15- Bring Horus Heresy models into 40k, I'm sure all 10 people on each continent that still play HH won't be bothered by that at all.

16- Consider "Underdog Strategems" that only work when players have a large VP disparity (maybe optional?)

Open to other thoughts.

Oo forgot one. Just lose mortal wounds...period

Mortal wounds are fine in smaller doses. However GW being uncreative slaps them everywhere. Then there's the fact all offensive Psyker powers do it too.

 Blackie wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
The big changes that need to happen imo....(at least for the game to be better for tournament play/competitive play).

1. No more IGOUGO, other systems are far better than one player losing 20% of his army before his turn (more if you play against space marines). Honestly I like bolt actions way, definitely gives for a more balanced turn.

2. We need to go back to very few things having armor pen values.

3. Auras need to go, characters can join units again and buff them that way.

4. Command points and strats need to go, make units unique and give them rules again. Between how innately unbalanced some command points are compared to others, CP batteries, and just the amount of CP some armies get...wayyyyy to much balance swings... (sure, they are neat and can be fun...but at tournament level they get really out of hand)

I disagree on the 1 and 3 points but about point 2 I think high AP weapons should be harder to spam. Same options than now but harder to spam. Clan bonuses and auras are healthy for the game, and auras are definitely better than deathstars. About stratagems I can agree, I think a game with no stratagems at all is more fun, but unfortunately some units have a points value that includes the possible buff by stratagem and they'd be quite overcosted without the specific stratagems that make them work. Maybe fixing the total amount of CP to a maximum of 15 could help, along with raising the most powerful ones like "shooting twice" to 3-4 CPs instead of just 2.

There is no balancing them, that's the problem. So you get turn one SM, spend 4 CP...shoot twice off a deep strike and ive lost at least 30% of my army...probably more. So between them and IGOUGO, there isn't a balance at all. One player is always behind the 8 ball, CP just make things more extreme.

We get clan bonuses, they are your armies special rules. I don't think every army having a reroll machine is unique, clan specific, or helpful. Deathstars still exist....their nature just changed a little. Went from being unkillable (because everythings high AP and giving out mortal wounds like candy) to super killy. I dont know how 1 HQ in one unit buffing is worse and more deathstar than an HQ who can literally buff as many units as can daisy chain to within 6 in of his model.