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Karol wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
I feel like the people who are happy about it would be happy with anything and are just settling for a polished turd. It makes no sense, its weak...poorly written...multiple things don't make sense in it. And this is right after the bomb SM codex. Honestly the more I think about it the madder I get about it. Why is everyone so complacent with this?

Few to non people play the army, so few to non people are getting angry about it. Why should an orc player care that SoB didn't get an ultra tier codex. Same for any faction with small or no fan base.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs 782852 10643205 wrote:

Well, what do you want me to do about it?

Personally I think your focusing on the wrong thing here. A SoB codex? Yay. I mean, we already have SoB rules - in the index & the Beta. But now we have all-new all-shiny PLASTIC SoB!
That means, whatever the quality of the rules, our armies aren't in (much) danger of being squatted.

People that already have bought recast SoB armies won't care about new models, they already spend their cash on an army. And squated, a new term I learned a few days ago, seems to mean being removed from the game. And it is true that GW, maybe will never really squat anything in w40k, at least as they have the models in stock and to sell. But there is very little difference between having no rules and having rules, so bad new people don't want to buy the army or the models, and people that already have them don't want to use them.

1) Yep, that's the deffinition of Squatted.

2) Existing players may/may not care. It depends upon a few things.
How big is their existing army?
Do they have the right mix for what's required by current force charts. When I returned in 2018 I had to buy another Grey Hunter squad for my SW.
Are there new units? I hear that answer is yes. So come Jan I might be buying more SoB after many years.
Do they like the new plastics better than their existing metals/recasts? I've known people who've replaced squads or even entire armies when better looking minis were produced. (have you ever seen an original 2e Necron Destroyer??)
Do they have the right mix as far as being optimized for competitive play?

3) There is a world of difference between having no rules & having even bad rules. And we know that the SoB do not have bad rules. Not as great as some would've preferred, but not bad either.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Mid-tier(whatever the hell that means)

It's like F1 racing, you've got the teams competing for the points and then you've got the others competing amongst themselves. Anyone can win, but the also-rans rely somewhat on those ahead throwing themselves off the road.

It is still to early to fully judge the new SoB relative to everyone else though - the new rules are almost entirely unplayed and the miracle dice don't mathhammer well, and everyone else appears to be about to get a price cut in chapter approved and new rules in psychic awakening which will shake up the tier positions and presumably make every other faction stronger.

Early next year we'll start to see how ~100 bolter armed sisters with save boosters and 18 missile launchers hold up going into the next round of rules updates and, presumably, updates for the xenos factions.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
Anyone else blown away by how underwhelming this codex is or is it just me? Next doesn't equal good and after seeing how good SM dex was, this is a suuuuper bust.

You're not the only one. It's definitely weak. Not GK weak, but not good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

1: The codex is not actually out yet, so anyone saying anything about it really doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm about to lay down some of my own speculation, and of course, I feel it's logical based on what I've seen, but again it is speculation.

2: From what we've seen,this book is far and away better than the beta dex. I'm pretty sure that even folks who dislike the new book would agree.

3. There's a debate in some places about varying interpretations of how many miracle dice can be used when rolling to hit and damage. General consensus is that we need a FAQ, and what it says about this once we get it is a big deal. Fortunately, it's looking like the ruling is going to go in our favour, because Tzeench already has a similar mechanic, and their rules provide an example that clarifies multiple dice can be used.

4. I do sympathize with the emotional reactions of many players who had hoped for a handful of specific things- many people really wanted the Geminae to be part of Celestine's unit like they used to be- this was a huge disappointment, and even those of us who like what we see so far are a bit sad. Ditto on the fact that we didn't get a jump canoness.

On the issue of a second troops choice, opinions are more divided. Some wanted a Frateris Militia, some were indifferent, and some may have thought that the Frateris Militia were pushing the limits of the Decree Passive. Of course, they also might have created a new Sister Troop choice, but it's kinda tough to figure out what that might have been.

5. As a counterpoint, there was a pretty vocal crew of naysayers who swore up and down that we wouldn't get any new units, but we did.

Anyway, that's about as much speculation as I have in me. See y'all in a week or two once we actually get our dexes and have a chance to play against a couple of other armies so that we can see if we all still feel the same.

Given that literally everything is leaked online, I'm confident that it's bad.

Exorcists were nerfed significantly, Dominions can't use their transports [to be fair, they couldn't anymore after Vanguard Marines dropped].

Our Doctrines are weak, and so are the Order Convictions. Argent Shroud is literally half of Tallarn.

I definitely think it's weaker than the beta dex.

Well Kat, respect, but this is exactly what I'm talking about; how you can say the exorcist got nerfed is beyond me- iits minimum and maximum number of shots both got increased; it now has an option for rerolling it's number of shots of you don't like what you get, it now has a second load out option, and it benefits from acts of faith now. But it lost one point of AP [which can be given back with an Order trait if you're really that busted up about it], and it's points cost went up. Those who cry nerf are talking about the last two things in this list while completely ignoring the first four.

Oh, and you know what else? I can auto 6 on at least one of my damage dice, and possibly ALL of them, depending on how they FAQ miracle dice. But you go right ahead and believe that the possibility of doing 54 points of damage instead of a very unlikely 36 is a nerf. I mean, some dude on Youtube said so, it must be true.

To say that Dominions can't use transports anymore is just not true. To say they can't apply their scout move to a transport may be true, but those really aren't the same thing are they? Words actually have meanings.

Argent Shroud is half of Tallarn? Yeah, because Tallarn power armour and miracle dice work so much better than... Oh, wait, they don't get power armour and miracle dice. Well you can still say they have more awesome plastic models than we do... Oh, wait, you mean they're still the same ten metal sculpts from 1997 and they lost their rough riders? Gee, guess those sisters are lookin pretty hot.

The way this edition works is by stacking bonuses from different sources- it's not just the rites, or the acts of faith, or the strats, or the relics, or the warlord traits- it's the combination. It's why comparing a doctrine to a doctrine doesn't tell the whole story. And the leaks and youtube vids have examined some of this combos, but not all of them. That literally cannot happen until you study the book.

I sometimes come across as a GW apologist, but it is because of some of the ludicrous negativity I see on Dakka. I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw some miscreant say a model is totally useless because they thought a single one of its stats needed to be one point higher. I mean, if that's your line of thinking, why do you even need a dex- because you're just going to pick what you perceive to be the best HQ and declare all others garbage; you'll take the best elite and declare all others useless. People complain we didn't get a second troops choice, but half of those people would have whined just as hard that it was garbage if GW had given us one anyway, so what's the point?

I was throughly welmed by this Codex. The things I liked were ruined and the things I thought bad were made better, so I guess the Beta worked...

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
They even stop you from trying to max command points by saying if you take X model...these models don't take up slots

This might surprise you but the 40k designers think that units not taking up slots is actually a point in the codex's favour.

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
They even stop you from trying to max command points by saying if you take X model...these models don't take up slots

What stuff has that?

Because I've been arguing we need that for awhile to prevent CP batteries.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
Anyone else blown away by how underwhelming this codex is or is it just me? Next doesn't equal good and after seeing how good SM dex was, this is a suuuuper bust.

You're not the only one. It's definitely weak. Not GK weak, but not good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

1: The codex is not actually out yet, so anyone saying anything about it really doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm about to lay down some of my own speculation, and of course, I feel it's logical based on what I've seen, but again it is speculation.

2: From what we've seen,this book is far and away better than the beta dex. I'm pretty sure that even folks who dislike the new book would agree.

3. There's a debate in some places about varying interpretations of how many miracle dice can be used when rolling to hit and damage. General consensus is that we need a FAQ, and what it says about this once we get it is a big deal. Fortunately, it's looking like the ruling is going to go in our favour, because Tzeench already has a similar mechanic, and their rules provide an example that clarifies multiple dice can be used.

4. I do sympathize with the emotional reactions of many players who had hoped for a handful of specific things- many people really wanted the Geminae to be part of Celestine's unit like they used to be- this was a huge disappointment, and even those of us who like what we see so far are a bit sad. Ditto on the fact that we didn't get a jump canoness.

On the issue of a second troops choice, opinions are more divided. Some wanted a Frateris Militia, some were indifferent, and some may have thought that the Frateris Militia were pushing the limits of the Decree Passive. Of course, they also might have created a new Sister Troop choice, but it's kinda tough to figure out what that might have been.

5. As a counterpoint, there was a pretty vocal crew of naysayers who swore up and down that we wouldn't get any new units, but we did.

Anyway, that's about as much speculation as I have in me. See y'all in a week or two once we actually get our dexes and have a chance to play against a couple of other armies so that we can see if we all still feel the same.

Given that literally everything is leaked online, I'm confident that it's bad.

Exorcists were nerfed significantly, Dominions can't use their transports [to be fair, they couldn't anymore after Vanguard Marines dropped].

Our Doctrines are weak, and so are the Order Convictions. Argent Shroud is literally half of Tallarn.

I definitely think it's weaker than the beta dex.

Well Kat, respect, but this is exactly what I'm talking about; how you can say the exorcist got nerfed is beyond me- iits minimum and maximum number of shots both got increased; it now has an option for rerolling it's number of shots of you don't like what you get, it now has a second load out option, and it benefits from acts of faith now. But it lost one point of AP [which can be given back with an Order trait if you're really that busted up about it], and it's points cost went up. Those who cry nerf are talking about the last two things in this list while completely ignoring the first four.

Oh, and you know what else? I can auto 6 on at least one of my damage dice, and possibly ALL of them, depending on how they FAQ miracle dice. But you go right ahead and believe that the possibility of doing 54 points of damage instead of a very unlikely 36 is a nerf. I mean, some dude on Youtube said so, it must be true.

To say that Dominions can't use transports anymore is just not true. To say they can't apply their scout move to a transport may be true, but those really aren't the same thing are they? Words actually have meanings.

Argent Shroud is half of Tallarn? Yeah, because Tallarn power armour and miracle dice work so much better than... Oh, wait, they don't get power armour and miracle dice. Well you can still say they have more awesome plastic models than we do... Oh, wait, you mean they're still the same ten metal sculpts from 1997 and they lost their rough riders? Gee, guess those sisters are lookin pretty hot.

The way this edition works is by stacking bonuses from different sources- it's not just the rites, or the acts of faith, or the strats, or the relics, or the warlord traits- it's the combination. It's why comparing a doctrine to a doctrine doesn't tell the whole story. And the leaks and youtube vids have examined some of this combos, but not all of them. That literally cannot happen until you study the book.

I sometimes come across as a GW apologist, but it is because of some of the ludicrous negativity I see on Dakka. I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw some miscreant say a model is totally useless because they thought a single one of its stats needed to be one point higher. I mean, if that's your line of thinking, why do you even need a dex- because you're just going to pick what you perceive to be the best HQ and declare all others garbage; you'll take the best elite and declare all others useless. People complain we didn't get a second troops choice, but half of those people would have whined just as hard that it was garbage if GW had given us one anyway, so what's the point?

I'd save your breath (fingers?) if I were you. Some people were to be unhappy regardless of what we got unless the codex was the new broken mess that destroys the game for the next 6 months. The competitive players are the worst part of the community because they can never be pleased but are the most vocal. Give any normal player a 3d3 lascannon on a T8 tank and most of them would be delighted but since competitive players gear lists towards killing a knight a turn its over-priced trash. In my group T8 models are a huge pain because we all play all-comers lists (unless I'm feeling spicy and want to play a meme army) so T8 models are generally on the board 2-3 turns, and with miracle dice to counter degrading profiles I don't think I could have come up with a better exorcist if I'd tried.

But like I said, some people were never going to be happy.

 vipoid wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
They even stop you from trying to max command points by saying if you take X model...these models don't take up slots

This might surprise you but the 40k designers think that units not taking up slots is actually a point in the codex's favour.

GW designers make many assumptions about what is good or bad, what people want, and how the game is played. they also seem to voice suprise about how people end up playing the game with the rule sets GW designs. That is like a tournament orgeniser allowing ancient pancration moves to be used durning wrestling matchs and then be suprised that people end up without eyes, with broken bones or dead.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
They even stop you from trying to max command points by saying if you take X model...these models don't take up slots

What stuff has that?

Because I've been arguing we need that for awhile to prevent CP batteries.

unless im missing something, Arco's, DCA's and Crusaders don't count for slots in any detachment with a priest- and since if you want to stay as cheap as possible your detachments will likely have a missionary which counts as one, they can't fill elite slots with them.

...that kind of is a problem if your doing elite focused detachments soley around ministorum come to think of it, since all they have is HQ, Elite, and Heavy Support slots. egh.

also, the Repentia superior/Mistress of Repentence doesn't count in any detachment for an elite slot should be running a unit or more of repentia. I'm not sure in what ways, either then running Battleforged elite heavy detachments this is a problem, but it is a thing.

..I'm still unhappy to lose Jacobus as another HQ choice, and missionaries are still 1 per detachment even though that's an easy workaround. on pure ministorum/ no sororitas the book broke even with the new pengine variant for models more ministorum connected.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
They even stop you from trying to max command points by saying if you take X model...these models don't take up slots

What stuff has that?

Because I've been arguing we need that for awhile to prevent CP batteries.

Battle Conclave Units(Arcos and Pen. Engine) if you have a Priestly character and Repentia Superior if you have Repentia

And transports.

CP batteries are always going to happen, indeed this design would probably make them more likely and less interesting.

Its certainly fair to question the Exorcist.
It costs a chunk more points.
Yes its damage output has been buffed.
But it lost the ability to get more than 6++ and got no other defensive buffs.

So for all the fact its T8, its more of a glasscannon (for the points) than it was.
But at the same time, 3D3 is a lot better than 1D6.

Really feel immolators are a bigger source of complaint - not really versus the beta codex, but just being overcosted versus the game as a whole.

Still - rock on the chapter approved after the next one.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
They even stop you from trying to max command points by saying if you take X model...these models don't take up slots

What stuff has that?

Because I've been arguing we need that for awhile to prevent CP batteries.

Repentia Superior, Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins and Arco-Flagellants - it stops you from having 116 point Vanguard detachments.

Alternatively, it just requires list shuffling - so you put your Ministorum units in your otherwise pure Adepta detachment, then you put your Repentia Superior in your Ministorum detachment away from the Repentia.

 Asmodai wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Soccerlfb6 wrote:
They even stop you from trying to max command points by saying if you take X model...these models don't take up slots

What stuff has that?

Because I've been arguing we need that for awhile to prevent CP batteries.

Repentia Superior, Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins and Arco-Flagellants - it stops you from having 116 point Vanguard detachments.

damn, how OP, 116 vanguard detachments.

*eyeballs 170pt admech battalion*

What are we at for chaos, 240-ish points for 8cp? So, 30pts/cp? Can't let sisters have 116pts for 1cp though that'd be busted.

The only thing I dislike of this new codex (And the old beta codex) is what they did to the Geminaei.

PUT THEM BACK IN CELESTINE UNIT WHERE THEY SHOULD BE!

 Sim-Life wrote:
Give any normal player a 3d3 lascannon on a T8 tank and most of them would be delighted

True, without context.

However offer a player a 170pt vindicator with three typhoon missile launchers in return for:

Every tank they have

Every gun with more range than a bolter that has a strength higher than 5 or more than 1 damage

Every weapon full stop with a strength higher than 8

Just about every source of mortal wounds

Every method of boosting said vindicators firepower other than reroll 1s to hit

Every alternate method of delivering similar firepower without walking across the board, except a one unit per turn deepstrike stratagem

And so on. I'm sure an inquisition player would be thrilled, others not so much.

Personally I don't think the exorcist is weak as such. In this age of allies I think it works as something that might tempt but ultimately be declined by a cherry picking imperium player which is about where things should be, however it doesn't seem to get particularly better in the context of it's own ranged-weapon starved faction with auras, synergies, stratagems and special rules.
Sisters players have spent the past year watching their 4++ exorcists get chewed up early on, and with mech dominions DoA the faction has doubled down on the exorcist as it's ranged weapon crutch just as it has become a larger points investment with a shorter lifespan.

A.T. wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Give any normal player a 3d3 lascannon on a T8 tank and most of them would be delighted

Sisters players have spent the past year watching their 4++ exorcists get chewed up early on/quote]

Funny that you talk about context but leave the context of this bit out. Is this the "kill one knight per turn" context? Because in my casual meta (and I'm willing to bet a lot of other peoples metas) T8 tanks even without an invuln aren't generally popped in a single turn unless someone has very good/bad dice.

TBH exorcist can ignore up to -2Ap or fire when killed on a 5+. So is not like they don't have access to some stuff to make them more """resilient"""

 Sim-Life wrote:
Funny that you talk about context but leave the context of this bit out. Is this the "kill one knight per turn" context? Because in my casual meta (and I'm willing to bet a lot of other peoples metas) T8 tanks even without an invuln aren't generally popped in a single turn unless someone has very good/bad dice.

Exorcists aren't knights. If you can pop a questoris in one round you can pop two or three exorcists.

You seem to play a very soft meta. It's not the height of tournament power listing to votlw a squad of slaanesh havoks or something similarly mundane.

The codex seems pretty solid but not super powerful to me. I think it is the sort of power level codices should have.

One thing that worries me a bit is the AP -2 ignoring combo. I'm afraid that a gunline build around that will overwhelmingly be the most optimal build and it sounds super boring to me.

 Crimson wrote:
One thing that worries me a bit is the AP -2 ignoring combo. I'm afraid that a gunline build around that will overwhelmingly be the most optimal build and it sounds super boring to me.

3 exorcists, 80-90 battle sisters on foot, celestine and support characters, and not a whole lot else at 2000pts?

I don't think that the AP ignoring combo will be metabreakingly OP, merely that it is clearly the best build in the codex. It's an concern about internal balance.

Jarval wrote:
The big thing for me is that the timing on when you spend the Miracle Dice feels off - they're distinctly mediocre as stands, where you have to use them before you roll. If you could spend them to replace a dice result after you rolled, they'd be vastly better and a notably more useful resource.

And absurdly overpowered.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Jarval wrote:
The big thing for me is that the timing on when you spend the Miracle Dice feels off - they're distinctly mediocre as stands, where you have to use them before you roll. If you could spend them to replace a dice result after you rolled, they'd be vastly better and a notably more useful resource.

And absurdly overpowered.

Depending on how many you get of course. 1/game, less so than, say, 1 per 10 models (or however you want).

 Galas wrote:
TBH exorcist can ignore up to -2Ap or fire when killed on a 5+. So is not like they don't have access to some stuff to make them more """resilient"""

Where are we finding the codex?

It sounds like it nearly doubled it's average shots -- how many points did it go up?

..

Ozomoto wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:
Many, many said the same thing about the beta dex. Didn't stop me from winning ITC GT's with them.

Everyone's milliage varies, I see strength in the new dex, you might not not. Move on its not for you. Next dex I might not see the strength but others will, it's not for me.

Yep, sure. And I'm the crown prince of mars, ruler of the bubblegum fairies.

None of the top 10 SoB players in the ITC have won any GTs, Even simon leen, the guy in first, hasn't won one.

So either you're full gak, not actually playing sisters, or don't understand what a 'GT' is.

https://www.40kstats.com/fieldsofdamnation heres a recent one.

How recent? I find it a little weird that there are no marines in the top 4 (honestly).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH exorcist can ignore up to -2Ap or fire when killed on a 5+. So is not like they don't have access to some stuff to make them more """resilient"""

Where are we finding the codex?

It sounds like it nearly doubled it's average shots -- how many points did it go up?

It did nearly double it's number of shots on average (though not quite).

In exchange, it went up 45 points.
It lost a point of AP on the weapon.
It lost access to an invuln higher than a 6++.|
It gained Order Convictions (which do little for it. Yay, it's pistol can be -1 Rend and it can get +1 attack in CC - oh wait).

It's now roughly the same price as an upgraded tank commander for fewer average shots, no innate Re-Roll 1s, no secondary weapons, and requires babysitting to do stuff (e.g. to take 3 in a detachment you need an HQ, unlike the Tank Commander). Oh, and not many Order convictions help it out at all, unlike the Tank Commander.

..

Ozomoto wrote:
This month, nov 9 or 11 or something. My army was half marines, a lot of that communities player base plays gsc, there was a lot of levi dreads and knights also.

Can you tell us how you felt your army would've done if you didn't have half marines in your list?

Ozomoto wrote:
This month, nov 9 or 11 or something. My army was half marines, a lot of that communities player base plays gsc, there was a lot of levi dreads and knights also.

You are seriously putting forward a minimum equipment CP battery as an example of sisters winning GT tournaments?

That's like fielding 1001 points of conscripts screening an old knight & bikers list and calling it a guard army.