Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

.

I'm not in a position to address tournaments, competitive play, or "the meta" on whatever scale... I have a local crew and mostly play once a month against one of the same five or six guys... so what I can offer may count for nothing. But I have been playing the army since its inception and have played every codex in every edition, so there's that.

I'm excited for this book. The last couple of books we've had gave us a clear standout option, from Celestine's turn 1 charge to the 4++ Exorcist castle. You'd see those things every single game when they were the mainstay of the army. At first glance, this book has a few killer combos, but doesn't seem to really force a particular build. Losing the vehicle Vanguard move is a bummer, but at least you won't see three melta Dominion squads leading every Sisters army.

So, in my weird little local and very personal context, here's what I'm excited for:
-lots of viable unit types and loadouts... especially Celestians (whose bodyguard ability may prove essential), heavy flamer Retributers (8 of them jumping out of a Rhino?), deep-striking Seraphim (they fixed the Stratagem we needed for infernos), blob Sisters getting another chance (thanks to more ways to manipulate morale), good ol' MSU special weapon spam, etc., etc.
-options to hold up better in melee... in so many editions, Sisters folded the moment they came in contact with anything sturdier than a Guardsman.
-mechanized Sisters are down a peg... hopefully not gone, because I love that play style, but wall o' tanks shouldn't be the best or the only option. I've always done best at objective grabbing and suffered in kill-point type scoring, so maybe that's shifting to a more neutral balance.
-the full slate of stratagems, relics, warlord traits, etc... not that they are better/worse or same/different than others, but that they exist at all. We're a real army with real decisions to make!
-this codex seems to split the emphasis between list-building and strategy, which I like... I want to put the effort in up front AND be challenged to play well in the moment.
-on the whole, there's a lot of moving parts here... in my experience, Sisters have always been a "hard mode" army in terms of playing it well, and I think that continues with lots of synergies to track and decisions to make in play.
-plastic freakin' models... this will open up a whole new aspect of the army for me as I've been pure Battel Sisters and never really invested in certain units, and now I get to buy and build and paint and play some Arcos and Repentia at last!

So, not to challenge anyone's commentary on the competitive meta, but I'm excited to buy and play this book.

I was watching the tabletop tactics batrep and it looked like they were using miracle dice after the roll to replace them.
They may have got it wrong or I may have misunderstood what they were doing, I tend to have them on whilst painting etc, but does anyone have certainty that you can't replace rolls with miracle dice?

..

Ozomoto wrote:

kingheff wrote:
I was watching the tabletop tactics batrep and it looked like they were using miracle dice after the roll to replace them.
They may have got it wrong or I may have misunderstood what they were doing, I tend to have them on whilst painting etc, but does anyone have certainty that you can't replace rolls with miracle dice?

It explicitly says you place your miracle dice into roll, then proceed to roll any dice you need to rol lstill. Miracle dice cannot be rerolled.
So basically you can never replace an already rolled dice.

I watched that batrep and I think they messed up more than that. I know he did a mech Vanguard move as well, used MDs reactively, but hey, it's a new book. I'm glad they tried one.

Ozomoto wrote:

kingheff wrote:
I was watching the tabletop tactics batrep and it looked like they were using miracle dice after the roll to replace them.
They may have got it wrong or I may have misunderstood what they were doing, I tend to have them on whilst painting etc, but does anyone have certainty that you can't replace rolls with miracle dice?

It explicitly says you place your miracle dice into roll, then proceed to roll any dice you need to rol lstill. Miracle dice cannot be rerolled.
So basically you can never replace an already rolled dice.

Probably me not paying attention fully for a change then.

Ozomoto wrote:
It really doesn't matter if thats a sister lists.

It kind of does when you put forward a 'winning grand tournaments with sisters' line.

It's an imperial soup list. Honestly i'm surprised more of the 17 sisters varieties didn't pop up, beta sisters never looked bad as detachment padders but it's also why the rest of the codex was never considered top tier - the rest of the codex just couldn't lift them. Same concern with the new one and the ranks of AP -2 ignoring chaff that may have even less teeth than their predecessors.

Yeah, propping up Sororitas shortcomings with other Imperial armies is fine. Same with Inquisition.

But it doesn't make Sororitas good. Mono-marines is a thing, and they obviously (unlike Inquisition) intend for Sororitas to be a mono-dex-capable army, given that they put mono-Sororitas rules in the book (the Rites of Battle).

So, given that Sororitas are in a "mono-dex-able" category, they are more comparable to Marines than to Inquisition.

So yes, soup lists that include Sororitas can do well. What about mono-Sororitas, which the designers clearly intend to be a capable faction?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
TBH exorcist can ignore up to -2Ap or fire when killed on a 5+. So is not like they don't have access to some stuff to make them more """resilient"""

Where are we finding the codex?

It sounds like it nearly doubled it's average shots -- how many points did it go up?

It did nearly double it's number of shots on average (though not quite).

In exchange, it went up 45 points.
It lost a point of AP on the weapon.
It lost access to an invuln higher than a 6++.|
It gained Order Convictions (which do little for it. Yay, it's pistol can be -1 Rend and it can get +1 attack in CC - oh wait).

It's now roughly the same price as an upgraded tank commander for fewer average shots, no innate Re-Roll 1s, no secondary weapons, and requires babysitting to do stuff (e.g. to take 3 in a detachment you need an HQ, unlike the Tank Commander). Oh, and not many Order convictions help it out at all, unlike the Tank Commander.

So over 200 points? Yeesh. That's a bit harsh. Damage is still D3? No other abilities on the weapon?

The anti tank variant is something like 175 points.

His weapon its Heavy 3d3 F9 -3AP (Or -2? I can't remember) D6 damage.


And 4++ vehicles are trash. I'm sorry. They were trash with Azrael and they were Trash with Sororitas, I don't care if it was the only viable build. Dark Angels lost any kind of competitive power with the nerf to the Azrael castle but even with that I'm glad as a Dark Angel Player.

 Galas wrote:
The anti tank variant is something like 175 points.

His weapon its Heavy 3d3 F9 -3AP (Or -2? I can't remember) D6 damage.


And 4++ vehicles are trash. I'm sorry. They were trash with Azrael and they were Trash with Sororitas, I don't care if it was the only viable build. Dark Angels lost any kind of competitive power with the nerf to the Azrael castle but even with that I'm glad as a Dark Angel Player.

Ahh...D6 damage AND S9 AND its only 175? So it's like 6 shots of a lascannon. It used to be AP4 so AP3 sounds right if it dropped one and it used to be S8. If this is correct I have no idea why people are complaining. 3 TLC are 120 points. You get the same thing on a T8 chassis for 55 points.

This is the same thing as the KMK. It went from D3 damage to D6 and took a point increase and ever since people have been calling it a conspiracy to change sales to Smasha Guns.

My fault, it is S8, not 9.

 Galas wrote:
My fault, it is S8, not 9.

Ok, i'll calm my tits a little. Still seems pretty useful.

Yeah, the Exorcist is S8, not S9. i personally don't think it was nerfed, because the variance for it's shots has indeed improved, but the cost hike on it does concern me, considering its one of those things i think you run a lot of. i never did the invul synergies before, but that also does make it easier to pop...

I'm planning on using zero exorcists.

I will just flood the board with bloody rose infantry. Hella fun and maybe even effective.

Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

PenitentJake wrote:


Well Kat, respect, but this is exactly what I'm talking about; how you can say the exorcist got nerfed is beyond me- iits minimum and maximum number of shots both got increased; it now has an option for rerolling it's number of shots of you don't like what you get, it now has a second load out option, and it benefits from acts of faith now. But it lost one point of AP [which can be given back with an Order trait if you're really that busted up about it], and it's points cost went up. Those who cry nerf are talking about the last two things in this list while completely ignoring the first four.

Well... it's power per unit cost that's relevant, and going from 125 to 170 for 2.5 more shots isn't a good deal. I am calling it a nerf. Sure, it got more shots, a whole 2.5 more on average, at the massively increased cost of 170 points. This is more expensive than a Leman Russ Demolisher and in the range of the Leman Russ Demolisher Tank Commander, which it compares unfavorably too.

Miracle dice are weak, and only Valorous Heart has any useful effect on it and even then it's negligble, so yes, I'm aware of all 4 things, and I think they're poor substitutes for 45 points.

PenitentJake wrote:
Oh, and you know what else? I can auto 6 on at least one of my damage dice, and possibly ALL of them, depending on how they FAQ miracle dice. But you go right ahead and believe that the possibility of doing 54 points of damage instead of a very unlikely 36 is a nerf. I mean, some dude on Youtube said so, it must be true.

I think the wording on this is pretty clear. You may replace one roll with the result of one or more Miracle dice per phase. A charge roll consists of 2 dice. A damage roll consists of one. Each separate shot is a separate hit, wound, and damage roll and you can therefore only replace one with a 6.

And you think that doing 54 points of damage is any more likely than 36? Maximum potential damage is almost worthless, mean damage and it's variance are what matters.

I'll take my 4.1 average damage for 125 points over 5.8 average damage for 170.

PenitentJake wrote:
To say that Dominions can't use transports anymore is just not true. To say they can't apply their scout move to a transport may be true, but those really aren't the same thing are they? Words actually have meanings.

You are correct, I was hyperbolic.

PenitentJake wrote:
Argent Shroud is half of Tallarn? Yeah, because Tallarn power armour and miracle dice work so much better than... Oh, wait, they don't get power armour and miracle dice. Well you can still say they have more awesome plastic models than we do... Oh, wait, you mean they're still the same ten metal sculpts from 1997 and they lost their rough riders? Gee, guess those sisters are lookin pretty hot.

Does the Argent Shroud have Shoot and Scoot Tank Commanders? Huh, no. Miracle Dice vs. Orders is no contest. It's almost like not only is the profile of a Tallarnian tank commander better for it's cost, the Tallarnian tank has better support from it's own codex special abilities [tank orders] and it's trait [can move and fire]. Okay, sure, Sisters aren't about tanks despite this one being a competitive necessity...

And power armor isn't a worthwhile end in an of itself. Ask the marines for the last 2.5 years if they would rather have had power armor or traded it for FlaK and been 4 points for a wound with a 5+.

Miracle dice are like a single unit from your whole army getting half of Master Artisans. [It's actually even weaker than that on units with multiple weapon upgrades/multiple shots].

PenitentJake wrote:
The way this edition works is by stacking bonuses from different sources- it's not just the rites, or the acts of faith, or the strats, or the relics, or the warlord traits- it's the combination. It's why comparing a doctrine to a doctrine doesn't tell the whole story. And the leaks and youtube vids have examined some of this combos, but not all of them. That literally cannot happen until you study the book.

I sometimes come across as a GW apologist, but it is because of some of the ludicrous negativity I see on Dakka. I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw some miscreant say a model is totally useless because they thought a single one of its stats needed to be one point higher. I mean, if that's your line of thinking, why do you even need a dex- because you're just going to pick what you perceive to be the best HQ and declare all others garbage; you'll take the best elite and declare all others useless. People complain we didn't get a second troops choice, but half of those people would have whined just as hard that it was garbage if GW had given us one anyway, so what's the point?

I wouldn't call myself a hater, I didn't have unrealistic expectations before hand and this was basically what I expected.

That said, I don't think that things are awesome just because they're shiny, they need to also be good. And being good isn't just a factor of getting 3d3 shots versus 1d6 now, it's a factor of what kind of baked-in support from other units, stratagems, traits, doctrines, and special abilities are available for a given unit cost. And in exchange for marginal buffs, and one large one, the tank got a marginal nerf and a very large cost increase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


So over 200 points? Yeesh. That's a bit harsh. Damage is still D3? No other abilities on the weapon?

Damage 1d6, which it's been since the beta 'dex.

170 points. 90 for the tank, 70 for the launch rack, 10 for the heavy bolter.

DudleyGrim wrote:
Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

yeah. the two orders floating to the top are bloody rose and valorous heart so far as i can see it. just keep in mind that mono-sistering the only units that benefit from the sacred rites are the ones exactly with that rule, so last i checked Mortifiers don't get to. Repentia with the passion AND bloody rose will be very choppy, and also work with the priest...

if that's what i turned up for, id be pretty happy about it. thing is im not a melee person in most set ups, so im more let down by it.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Damage 1d6, which it's been since the beta 'dex.

170 points. 90 for the tank, 70 for the launch rack, 10 for the heavy bolter.

Ah, ok. I didn't pay much attention to the beta dex. Yea I'd call that pretty reasonable. Makes me think predators are getting a drop in points in CA.

DudleyGrim wrote:
Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

The problem is that they have no delivery system and are made out of tissue paper.

Mortifiers are T5 with a 4+ save and need Celestine to have an invul and Repentia are T3 with a 6++ and need 2 characters buffing them to get to a 4++. They'll both likely get shot off the table before they make it into combat and repentia need overwatch blockers to not lose the whole squad.


Their on paper damage numbers are brutal but you can pretty much count on half to 2/3rds of your melee units dying trying to get across the table. Whether that's good enough...dunno. Might be, they do put out a ton of damage.

Bdrone wrote:

DudleyGrim wrote:
Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

yeah. the two orders floating to the top are bloody rose and valorous heart so far as i can see it. just keep in mind that mono-sistering the only units that benefit from the sacred rites are the ones exactly with that rule, so last i checked Mortifiers don't get to. Repentia with the passion AND bloody rose will be very choppy, and also work with the priest...

if that's what i turned up for, id be pretty happy about it. thing is im not a melee person in most set ups, so im more let down by it.

I hear a lot of people talking about Argent Shroud with the doctrine for +1 Advance for mono-lists.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Damage 1d6, which it's been since the beta 'dex.

170 points. 90 for the tank, 70 for the launch rack, 10 for the heavy bolter.

Ah, ok. I didn't pay much attention to the beta dex. Yea I'd call that pretty reasonable. Makes me think predators are getting a drop in points in CA.

Which unfortunately makes the exorcist even less impressive.

Predators are arguably better NOW. They have higher rend, higher strength, native reroll 1s to hit, a 6+ FNP, 5+ overwatch, can move and shoot with no penalty, better character support including repairs, and don't degrade until they're down to like 2-3 wounds.(and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap. If you're taking predators you're taking ironhands)

Exorcists have 2 additional shots ( at 1 less strength and 1 less rend, 1 additional wound, 1 toughness, and a 6+ invul.

If predators are overpriced then exorcists are also likely overpriced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Bdrone wrote:

DudleyGrim wrote:
Man if I didn't have quite the backlog on my Death Guard army I'd be making myself a Bloody Rose army.

Mortifiers are insane, so are Repentia squads. So many rerolls for big damage, and lots of invuln saves. Sisters are looking to be quite choppy. Throw in a priest for bonus attacks too while you are at it.

Melee sisters are looking quite tasty imo.

yeah. the two orders floating to the top are bloody rose and valorous heart so far as i can see it. just keep in mind that mono-sistering the only units that benefit from the sacred rites are the ones exactly with that rule, so last i checked Mortifiers don't get to. Repentia with the passion AND bloody rose will be very choppy, and also work with the priest...

if that's what i turned up for, id be pretty happy about it. thing is im not a melee person in most set ups, so im more let down by it.

I hear a lot of people talking about Argent Shroud with the doctrine for +1 Advance for mono-lists.

They're talking out of their butts. Cool, you're slightly faster at not killing anything before not surviving return fire.

ERJAK wrote:


Which unfortunately makes the exorcist even less impressive.

Predators are arguably better NOW. They have higher rend, higher strength, native reroll 1s to hit, a 6+ FNP, 5+ overwatch, can move and shoot with no penalty, better character support including repairs, and don't degrade until they're down to like 2-3 wounds.(and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap. If you're taking predators you're taking ironhands)

Exorcists have 2 additional shots ( at 1 less strength and 1 less rend, 1 additional wound, 1 toughness, and a 6+ invul.

If predators are overpriced then exorcists are also likely overpriced.

Well, if you compare everything to marines then nothing is useful.

Oddly enough not even those benefits are enough to get IH to use predators, but my interest lies more on the CSM side of things anyway.

Didn't want to quote, but for Inquisitor Lord Katherine, the miracle dice system is worded almost exactly the same as the Destiny Dice system in Sigmar, which allows you to replace every dice in a roll (i.e. 6 shots can use 6 dice to hit) and several abilities, units, stratagems, etc are worded/costed as if it allows multiple dice per roll.

Circumstantial evidence suggests that the more powerful interpretation is more likely the correct one. Why would 'use the dice you used on a hit roll in the wound roll' even exist if it was only 1 dice? Why would it be 2CP? Why would the Triumph be 180pts when half of its rules don't do anything in the single dice interpratation? Why would an exorcist be 170pts unless they were expecting you to replace 3-5 dice per shot on one of them? Even using a six on a damage roll only adds 2.5 damage on average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Which unfortunately makes the exorcist even less impressive.

Predators are arguably better NOW. They have higher rend, higher strength, native reroll 1s to hit, a 6+ FNP, 5+ overwatch, can move and shoot with no penalty, better character support including repairs, and don't degrade until they're down to like 2-3 wounds.(and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap. If you're taking predators you're taking ironhands)

Exorcists have 2 additional shots ( at 1 less strength and 1 less rend, 1 additional wound, 1 toughness, and a 6+ invul.

If predators are overpriced then exorcists are also likely overpriced.

Well, if you compare everything to marines then nothing is useful.

Oddly enough not even those benefits are enough to get IH to use predators, but my interest lies more on the CSM side of things anyway.

Just to be clear, you agreed with me twice and then non-sequitured into talking about Chaos.

ERJAK wrote:

and don't give me that 'only in ironhands' crap

That's only when played as IH. In addition, isn't the exorcist able to shoot with no LoS ?

ERJAK wrote:
Why would an exorcist be 170pts unless they were expecting you to replace 3-5 dice per shot on one of them? Even using a six on a damage roll only adds 2.5 damage on average.

170 points is in no way unreasonable nor is it considering MD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:


Just to be clear, you agreed with me twice and then non-sequitured into talking about Chaos.

Not really. I didn't clearly explain my thought process, but you took it into a realm of useless comparison to IH. It doesn't benefit to compare to the hardest thing around that clearly needs a nerf.

Ozomoto wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:
This month, nov 9 or 11 or something. My army was half marines, a lot of that communities player base plays gsc, there was a lot of levi dreads and knights also.

Can you tell us how you felt your army would've done if you didn't have half marines in your list?

I don't know how to answer that question. Running mono sisters in beta dex rules is suicide if that is what you where asking; I was very happy with them alongside the castellan, master of snares, custodes where ok but i dropped them. Very happy with Blood angels. 5-6 assassins have been quite good. They have merit allying with most of the other imperium factions imo. Space marines are good though, and this archetype at the time was worse as a mono marine build and better for having the bulk of the points be in sisters.

To put in into perspective my centurions actually shot maybe 1-1.5 on average per game. The bulk of the work was shovelling abberents that have wrapped units off objectives, dueling high impact charactors like patriarch, talonmasters etc with the smash nun. Double shooting engineers with seraphim to strip points away. The artillery might be the flashiest but the work done in the trenches is important too. Seraphim and celestine where easily mvp, as they always are.

Good luck trying to run a mono inquisition list. Doesn't stop them being being really good.

A.T. wrote:

Ozomoto wrote:
This month, nov 9 or 11 or something. My army was half marines, a lot of that communities player base plays gsc, there was a lot of levi dreads and knights also.

You are seriously putting forward a minimum equipment CP battery as an example of sisters winning GT tournaments?

That's like fielding 1001 points of conscripts screening an old knight & bikers list and calling it a guard army.

That is more then 50% a guard army for sure. So i would call is a 51% or w.e guard army. My original post was about leveraging a codex's strength. If 1001 points of conscripts gives you the bodies and cp to screen for X unit, then that would be leveraging the strengths of guard for said unit. If a codex gives you tons of cp and cheap bodies as one of its defining powerful attribute; then that is what you have to work with.

One of the strong elements of sisters is the ability for them to check hordes with volume of strength 4 shots combined with high durability vs ap0 attacks; running them barebones makes sense as that is what they are good at. You want them cheap so they are miserable to try and interact with. A seraphim squad of ten going burning descent into a charge gives you 102 S 4 attacks (assuming preacher +makes faith test) that hit on 3+. Plenty of damage already with no upgrades required.

Whether you call that a 'guard' army or not is just pedantry. It really doesn't matter if thats a sister lists. They have an important function and they do their job well and have been good to me. I couldn't care less if it doesn't' make the cut for the grand title of "sisters army".

You will. As had been made clear by the marine book and the sisters book, GW is moving their codex design towards favoring mono-codex armies. Marines are an example of that going too far, sisters are an example of it not going anywhere near far enough. Regardless, it's happening.

By the end of next year, I wouldn't be surprised to see souping almost totally phased out of the meta as more and more armies get bonuses for staying monofaction. At that point, it won't matter how good allies Sisters make, you won't take them because it means your guard army won't be BS2 with advance and shoot no penalty anymore, or your knight army won't be able to shoot each knight twice per turn, or your Admech army won't do mortal wounds on 6s to hit, or whatever crazy 'doctrine' equivalent bonuses they come up with.

We're where admech were at the start of the codex releases. Got a book too early and even though it's decent enough now, we have to wait on an army that only gets weaker as time goes on, praying for updates and point changes.

.

Predators are generally recognised as bad, so any comparison is a bit odd.

With that said if you compared it to a Repulsor Executioner it doesn't feel that awful. Similar glass cannon problem. The issue is that Iron Hands are off the chain and need to be nerfed hard - and perhaps, in 6 months, they will be.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Why would an exorcist be 170pts unless they were expecting you to replace 3-5 dice per shot on one of them? Even using a six on a damage roll only adds 2.5 damage on average.

170 points is in no way unreasonable nor is it considering MD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:


Just to be clear, you agreed with me twice and then non-sequitured into talking about Chaos.

Not really. I didn't clearly explain my thought process, but you took it into a realm of useless comparison to IH. It doesn't benefit to compare to the hardest thing around that clearly needs a nerf.

It's a swingy, random, sitting duck that's also very fragile, considering there's no way to repair it or stop it from degrading. 170pts feels very steep for that. MD only make up for its price if you're replacing multiple dice, so it'll depend on which MD interpretation is correct. Adding 2.5 damage to one shot, once per turn, for one of them,(which is what a 6 does on average) is not particularly impressive.

Comparing it to the hardest thing around is the only comparison that matters. Whether IH need a nerf or not is irrelevant, they're the big kids on the block you have to be able to measure up with them, or at least deal with them, if you want to win. Having your absolute best long range shooting unit be equal to or even slightly better than a unit that no IH player would even consider, is probably not good times.