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I'll do one more swing at the lack of a jump pack canoness with the mention not only did they redo the canoness kit, but they also made Junith eruita when that could have pulled a Necron-esc catacomb command barge and been a generic HQ choice as well, to give the canoness a flying pulpit ride. shame that was a missed opportunity for a model they called "center-piece".

She'll likely chop down her points worth even if it's in counter charge though. this lack of mobility while reducing her range options and more or less keeping the melee bugs me. even if she's always been better at melee, i use to have the option to put other stuff there. i'll miss combi- plas and stormbolter.

on the missionaries, yeah, without a plan of action you'll want to use someone else... except if your trying to stay cheap you can only pull out 3 canoness's if you obey that rule. if that rule is the case, and you can't use/ don't want to use junith , and don't want to use celestine or the triumph for whatever reason, your taking a missionary if you still need to fill out something like missing HQ slots. we'll see how that shakes out in time, im sure. since a number of models in the army benefit from missionaries being there based on your list and especially if bloody rose, the missionary's points start being more useful.

as to the Rites, Aegis is great but situational, The Passion is awesome if your building for it. im iffy with divine guidance, but you nailed the point Tyel, it can add up depending on matchup. i wasn't eyeing spirits synergy with the exorcist, but if your correct, point made loud and clear.

that said, hand of the emperor... my problem with this is that if sacred rites worked with generic ministorum as well, id be more inclined to agree it was as good. id play argent shroud so it's not like i would never ever get the bonus, but the extra charge is.. possibly the least useful here than in any other army.

we can deepstrike charge rerollers for the Order models with Zephyrim, and use miracle dice to help ensure charges or fix at least one of the dice in our favor. in the same vein we can fix advances for key moments potentially as well. I hope im not underselling it, but i don't know if it's really all that with such capabilities available to the faction, especially compared to the other options. if your list is melee, its an even harder choice to take with The Passion, Spirit, and especially Aegis floating around, though of course that ones more matchup dependent.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't go near marines unless its to stab them so I dunno what chaplains do but I can't imagine its very different from confering a specific buff to a unit based on whatever its opposing.

Even being vaguely famliar, I don't see a massive difference. I think Chaps get to change each turn, and have different bonuses they grant.

That said, I'm lost as to how miracle dice aren't rated high. It's consistency on demand from a pile you have on hand. Maybe it won't work out as well I hope, but as long as I know what's in the pile I can make sure I roll exactly what I need to in order to kill that character. I've rolled many, many 1s on 2 or 3 wound remaining characters hitting them with d3 and d6 damage, let me just pick that 2 or 3 from the pile and bowl him over, may as well just make my day for me even if it Is below average.

The Canoness doesn't have lots of options. She has fewer options than a Sister Superior.

There are 2 builds: one with a rod of office (that can't otherwise be changed) and one with a blessed blade (at which she gets a whopping amount of choice between.... 3 pistols). Oh and a condemnor boltgun

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't get why people have to give the review such a poo poo response. He did say this was a first thoughts review. I get people want to be all hype, I do too, however you do yourself no favors in trying to avoid reason.

I never intended to bash the OP-- I get that it's an initial reaction, and maybe I should have better acknowledged the hard work that went into the review. I just didn't understand the metric that resulted in nothing higher than a low B grade in the entire book, where at least some things... utility of the BSS, efficiency of the Canoness, BR Seraphim, AS Retributers, etc... are at least situationally useful for their point cost. Now that the OP has clarified that the comparison is against the potency of the new Marine 'dex, it makes a lot more sense. That's a powerful book and there aren't many that would measure up, especially with certain Chapter Tactics in place. Far from ignoring reason, I was trying to understand the context of the ratings. I may still find them a bit pessimistic, but now I know why.

 MacPhail wrote:
Now that the OP has clarified that the comparison is against the potency of the new Marine 'dex, it makes a lot more sense.

In terms of comparing the sisters against the competition, I think the leaks from chapter approved would suggest holding off for a bit. There seem to be wide sweeping price cuts to other factions, and psychic awaking will be bringing further buffs.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't go near marines unless its to stab them so I dunno what chaplains do but I can't imagine its very different from confering a specific buff to a unit based on whatever its opposing.

Even being vaguely famliar, I don't see a massive difference. I think Chaps get to change each turn, and have different bonuses they grant.

That said, I'm lost as to how miracle dice aren't rated high. It's consistency on demand from a pile you have on hand. Maybe it won't work out as well I hope, but as long as I know what's in the pile I can make sure I roll exactly what I need to in order to kill that character. I've rolled many, many 1s on 2 or 3 wound remaining characters hitting them with d3 and d6 damage, let me just pick that 2 or 3 from the pile and bowl him over, may as well just make my day for me even if it Is below average.

I think its people thinking "well what difference can one die make" without thinking back on how often a single die roll can impact a game. When I think back to the amount of times I or my opponents have used my reroll strat and then later in the phase wished I still had it really puts what miracle dice can do into perspective.

i think the reason not so many folks rate Miracle dice highly is because of it's own random nature. i think GW did a fair job in making the low rolls useful, but with questions about how the dice can be employed to the fullest extent, it makes the whole thing more difficult to put an easy number on.

the days when you roll out of the box you can pop them in crazy well and make command rerolls look like nothing, other days you might be begging for a decent one. but then there's also the timing of their use. clinching wounds and charges when key can definitely work out, but other times the good use won't be so obvious.

My hope is the average game has these dice covering the moments you'd normally think to command reroll instead of doing just that, and saving the command points for Strategems instead. once the full extent is shown, i think the rule may be better than at least i expect.

that said, judging the sisters book vs others is a tricky prospect right now. not just marine silliness is afoot, with Psychic awakening still ongoing, never mind what else is down the pipe. CA has me watching Custodes and Tau with interest in particular along with mechanicus on the side, and Saga of the Beast could be a BIG thing for SW and orks, which for a friend im keeping my eyes open for.

But not every dice HAS to be a six to be useful. Just KNOWING you can make that melta hit even on a 3+ is a big deal. I've had a whole unit of dominions pop out an immolator and miss every shot. I'm sure they were wishing for miracle dice when being ground up by that rockgrinder.

I didn't say they had to be sixes to be useful, just that the fact they cannot be inherently counted on to be consistent may be why people are shying away from it. thankfully we have means to use even the low dice on something, and mid dice will work for hits and in some cases wounds, as well as confirming some charges and other things besides.

as good as it is, it's as good as how well your rolling that day. hopefully it's enough to turn a tide, but it's just not something to easy to quanitfy compared to a flat bonus army rule.

Good review. I mostly concur with your assessment.

Sorry you are getting so much flak for it. I really don’t understand why people get upset over a critical review. That is what a review is: a critical appraisal.

If you just want to be hyped, then you can just read the marketing fluff on the GW Homepage.

Pro_b0 wrote:
Good review. I mostly concur with your assessment.

Sorry you are getting so much flak for it. I really don’t understand why people get upset over a critical review. That is what a review is: a critical appraisal.

If you just want to be hyped, then you can just read the marketing fluff on the GW Homepage.

This guy gets it!

Bdrone wrote:
I didn't say they had to be sixes to be useful, just that the fact they cannot be inherently counted on to be consistent may be why people are shying away from it. thankfully we have means to use even the low dice on something, and mid dice will work for hits and in some cases wounds, as well as confirming some charges and other things besides.

as good as it is, it's as good as how well your rolling that day. hopefully it's enough to turn a tide, but it's just not something to easy to quanitfy compared to a flat bonus army rule.

I think the issue is that outside of damage and charges the benefit is mathematically quite weak. As you are making something certain when it had a high chance to happen anyway.

Say you can fire 3 melta guns in a turn at BS 3+ - and you turn one such 3+ roll into a guaranteed success.
On average you number of hits is only going up from 2 to 2.333. Which isn't a huge buff in terms of the army as a whole. Mathematically its comparable of having reroll 1s to hit...just for those specific 3 meltas.
(If you were rerolling 1s anyway, its 2.33->2.555. An even smaller increase.)

Okay you are definitely getting at least one hit - but then the odds of getting 3 misses was 1 in 27. So not that high. I should probably crunch some numbers to calculate how this skews the odds of definitely getting 2 hits - but intuitively I don't think its that much.

Anyway - the relevant point is that if you have say 24 melta shots over the turn (or whatever, consider all shooting etc its going to be a high number), you can see how the impact of that one guaranteed hit is diluted to almost nothing.

The counter argument will be ensuring one hit on one specific unit - rather than having say all the luck on one target, and none on another. But its still going to be quite minor.

Or at least it will be early on. The counter-counter argument would be that miracle dice regenerate while CP don't (well, they can for other factions, but still tend to run out over time). So later on, say in turn 4 when both sides are badly wounded, and you've both spent all your CP, arguably having some guaranteed hits may become very valuable. But its then a question of how often you are going to get these knife edge games rather than blowouts one way or the other.

in other words, because of the games volatile and lethal nature, combined with sisters being an army where a LOT of dice are being rolled, the ability loses ground in most applications.

...which to then try to optimize, may create of situation of putting good resources (points, command and normal, relics, WTs) after bad in the event it's REALLY not enough.

Yeah, i get what your saying about it. this kind of effect makes close games into potential wins, but blowouts it will do less with. like a passive army rule thats inherently defensive. if the situation doesn't benefit it, it'll do far less, except you can employ it in multiple ways, provided you have the resources, offensively and defensively.

im just thinking of those times in a more cutthroat game when several units get dusted and your handed a miracle die... that rolls low on top of it as i mull over those thoughts.

it'd be nice if you could sue mircle dice on your opponents rolls. suddenly a low rolled mricle dice would be INSANELY handy.

BrianDavion wrote:
given the demand for the sisters box I think it's safe to say sisters are a sucess. so with any luck past the codex release GW'll continue to put out models for them periodicly. a level of support akin to what admech is getting would be perfect (admech seems to be averaging a new kit a year)

Well lets hope its not Guard level of support, or Dark Eldar level of support. 1 kit a year, I could only imagine if certain factions only got that love a year, there would be blood in the streets. ( not literal ) I doubt we'll see much sustained stuff for Sisters for awhile after the kits that get released we know of at this point. Though maybe in a years time they may see some new stuff, like a faith flyer or some such.

To be frank, I only really "felt" the impact of like 3 miracle dice in 3 games so far:
- Overwatch 6 to-hit with a multi-melta that slew a charging Librarian.
- Automatic save vs lascannon hit to the Canoness (50/50 otherwise)
- 7 damage with a Storm of Retribution Multi-Melta to wipe out a tank from over half it's hit points.

That said, the Divine Intervention and Moment of Grace stratagems both require Miracle Dice and have both been super handy, and I had one instance where a foe refused to charge because I had a 6 in my Miracle Dice pool and the Canoness had an inferno pistol.

I look at he codex's individual parts and frown, nothing seems to stand out. A very "C"-rating. I think it is also doing a disservice to look at it as such. An Imagifier sitting in a Valorous Heart castle passing out ignoring -2 AP to a bunch of gals sitting in cover is probably not a C-rated experience.

Argent Shroud Repressors are probably not a C-rated experience either.

But really, I think the Codex as a whole should probably receive a bit of a higher grade, and you're probably receiving a bit of flak because of the very compartmentalized approach you're taking. The units are very pedestrian, there's nothing obviously OP, everyone gets it. But is the codex middling around with no way to bring itself up a bit? Stuck forever in mundanity? I think that may be selling the entire product short.

Also, MD is just a bully tactic. As Unit1126 pointed out, people will play differently knowing that certain rolls CAN be foregone conclusions. And that can lead to play errors...

Personally I'm wondering if MD are a pilot for some new rules in 9th or an upcoming release.

 vipoid wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean TBH I'm not sure how anyone can rate the cannoness as a C+.

if you're willing to take a relic you can get her aura out to 12 inches. a 12 inch captain Aura can be VERY nice.

Just a point but I think you could make an argument that HQs should be judged without Relics, Warlord Traits etc.

Especially in armies with few HQ options.

Except you can buy both of those. And if you start to rate without stuff they can get you need to rate marines without doctrines and super doctrines as well


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YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I don't go near marines unless its to stab them so I dunno what chaplains do but I can't imagine its very different from confering a specific buff to a unit based on whatever its opposing.

Even being vaguely famliar, I don't see a massive difference. I think Chaps get to change each turn, and have different bonuses they grant.

That said, I'm lost as to how miracle dice aren't rated high. It's consistency on demand from a pile you have on hand. Maybe it won't work out as well I hope, but as long as I know what's in the pile I can make sure I roll exactly what I need to in order to kill that character. I've rolled many, many 1s on 2 or 3 wound remaining characters hitting them with d3 and d6 damage, let me just pick that 2 or 3 from the pile and bowl him over, may as well just make my day for me even if it Is below average.

Yep. Imagine exorcist getting 3 shots past saves. First dice for damage 4, then 2. You can trigger act of faith for 3rd for 6 for auto kill that vehicle. Pretty handy. Or you really need something with 2 wounds left dead for sure? Have spare plasma pistol nearby? You can do if need be automatic hit AND wound(albeit costs miracle dice(3 or 4 required depending on T) and 2 CP but sometimes that's worth it and better than trust rolling two 3+ on one dice even with CP reroll.

Bringing characters back alive? Oh yeah. Opponent kills your blender cannoness with 2+/4++/can't be wounded better than 4+ and then it comes back alive. Fun.


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 Sim-Life wrote:
But not every dice HAS to be a six to be useful. Just KNOWING you can make that melta hit even on a 3+ is a big deal. I've had a whole unit of dominions pop out an immolator and miss every shot. I'm sure they were wishing for miracle dice when being ground up by that rockgrinder.

And you have ability to use same miracle dice for hit AND wound. Expensive but at times there are times when certainty is needed. And say you need 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound? 33% chance of making. Vs 2 CP, 1 miracle dice of 4+ and it's 100% quarantee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pro_b0 wrote:
Good review. I mostly concur with your assessment.

Sorry you are getting so much flak for it. I really don’t understand why people get upset over a critical review. That is what a review is: a critical appraisal.

If you just want to be hyped, then you can just read the marketing fluff on the GW Homepage.

Then again guy has plenty of odd claims. Useless heavy bolter on exorcist? Ummm...Since when it's so quaranteed you have ONLY LOS to vehicle but NOT to some infantry within 36"? We aren't playing older editions anymore where you have to shoot at same target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Altima wrote:
Personally I'm wondering if MD are a pilot for some new rules in 9th or an upcoming release.

That would be cruel taking sisters own thing and give it to others freely. That's like giving IG orders for everybody, bolter drill for everybody, synapse for everybody...

Part two

First of all, sorry for the delay, secondly, I want to say thank you, sincerely for all the feedback I've been given for this review. I still stand by my initial assessment as for the units in a standalone sense, except for the heavy bolter on the exorcist (I'd like to have the option of not taking it though.) But many of you made good points that I tried to weave back into my initial review. However, we will be moving into the rest of the special rules and I will attempt to show how some of the strats and tactics mesh with the basic units. I've gotten a few games in so far and I used MD wrong the first one but I think I got it right the second and third times. It's still an okay feature, but I did use it to promise a six on the damage roll to destroy a Land Raider filled with Bezerkers and that was, admittedly, a very nice feeling.

In this part I will be breaking down the sub-faction of the codex. Conviction, Relics, Strat and Warlord traits.

Order convictions (Like chapter tactics, but you're sure about it.)
Here I will list their conviction, special relic, strat and, when applicable, character to give a better picture of the whole sub-faction.

OUR MARTYRED LADY: (We're better when we die)
So, first you gain a miracle die whenever one of your units die. (Once per phase) In addition to if your character gets killed. So you may have lost your Cannoness, but you gained two dice, please include that in your letter back to her family. (Not that she had any) Plus +1 to hit for a unit if they lost a model earlier in the battle.
This is very much going to depend on how much use you get out of miracle die. I'm still not sold on the entire enterprise so the first part feels very meh and not something you should build an army around. If you love it, then I'm happy for you. However, this would force you to take large, maybe very large squads of slogging foot sisters in order to really make it work. I'm still convinced that sisters work best with 5 girls in a burn wagon, shooting 70mm automatic shame before getting their every atom shattered to the seven hells in a single round of return fire.
Grade: D+

Warlord trait:
+1 wounds, +1 save. (So the order that most wants to die, has a leader that's harder to kill) Would be useful on a SM Chapter Master or super duper on an Ork Warboss but on a squishy sister with no real murder machines, it's wasted)
Grade: D

Relic:
Martyrs' vengeance (Punctuated properly, which I appreciate.)
Replaces and inferno pistol with a S:9 always in the spot light 2d6 inferno pistol. While this relic does cost more than others, wounding a Land Raider on a 3 is nice. Not that bad, despite the short range. I could see her with a blessed blade being surprisingly killy.
Grade: C+

Strat:
Honour the Martyrs (We get it, you like dying)
If an enemy kills a unit of yours, re-roll 1s to hit until the end of the game. A funny, always stays on strat that is fluffy and sort of useful. However, since we'd probably be running 3 cannoness' for their cost and our general lack of options we should have good coverage. Might be nice for a roaming, melta dom squadette to take vengeance with. But, then, whom did their unit kill?
Grade: C

FINAL GRADE: D+ (The sister's pin up girls come in lacking. I could never imagine Ultramarines getting it this bad. And at least Ultras have a much sharper, eye catching paint scheme that looks good on the table.)

VALOROUS HEART: (Say you'll love me again)
6+++ and ignore AP-1 against all attacks. This bumps to ignoring AP-2 with the most improved unit in the game Imagnifier. This is huge, played against Khorne flakes, ignored their chain axes saved a vehicle. Played against Primaris and parked in a tree line with thirty lady nuns and ignored almost all of their shooting. Ended up being very hard to shift. Hands down, amazing but not killy. But with sisters just making it to the end of the game is an accomplishment. Once again however, this forces you towards larger, foot based infantry blobs to get the most out of it. Opening the army up to leadership issues and blitzing chaingun fire. Which plays against how I've always considered sisters to run.
Grade: A

Warlord trait:
5+++ If your game comes down to making this roll, you've failed. As a person.
Grade: D+

Relic:
Casket of penance: (Momma O'Sullivan's gonna put you in the scary timeout box)
-1 Toughness to enemy units if they have a model within 1" of you. Your warlord is in melee with something. You've done goofed. At best you have a blessed blade which means you'll still be wounding on 3's against marines. (Killing guard though, that's funny and pointless, this won't help you against the mighty treads of sky daddy's battle tanks) at worst you have a ruler used to discipline unruly children. And you'll be wounding on 4s with no other options. This is another example of something that would be amazing in another army but wasted here. Maybe we get it so that Kharn doesn't. There's only one and we're not gonna share.
Grade: D

Strat:
Blind faith: (360 no scope of pure belief)
One unit may ignore hit roll modifiers when shooting Soooooooo.... advance and shoot meltas with no penalties. Someone pop smoke but your piano fingers are itchy? Ignore it. Someone pop smoke AND you advanced with meltaguns? Absolutely. Someone happen to be a Raven guard? (They have other problems because they're not Iron hands) It's funny and strong, I've been telling people I have it before the game starts so I don't feel bad when I blast something on the first turn.
Grade: A

FINAL GRADE: B+ (What's bad is really, really bad. What's good is amazing and more than makes up for it. With the Conviction and the strat being so good you almost overlook how terrible the Relic is. A hairs berth away from perfection, still the best overall sub-faction in the book. Even with the weaknesses, play this or play wrong.)

BLOODY ROSE (Take me home...)
-1 AP to pistols and melee weapons. +1 attack during the first round of combat. (Simple, direct, subtle like a smoke beltching chainsaw sword to your smug, heretic face. This has uses, seraphim with AP-5 infero pistols. Hand flamers with - still skip these. Repentia getting their -4AP chain claymores back. If sisters had the staying power, this would be a viable secondary to the Toni Braxton brigade above. It could still work but you'd have to plan an army around it. Multiple Cannon's, Saint Celestine. Missionary and preachers. A hoard of Rhinos with Repentia and Seraphim running interference. Even then, I doubt it's repeated success. But it's nice to know they've weaponized their pure distain for you and everything you stand for.)
Grade: B-

Warlord Trait:
+1 attack, advance and charge. (This review will be lumped in with the Relic)
Grade: D+

Relic:
Beneficence (We named a sword after the word for mercy and kindness, aren't we clever?)
Free for a chainsword. +1 S, AP:-2 (So -3 with Conviction) D:2
So, lest we forget. A cannoness with this trait, conviction and this weapon is making.... 9! NINE attacks at S:4, AP:-3, D:2 hitting on 2's re-rolling 1s and can advance and charge. Almost 4 dead marines on the charge. 4 Primaris as well, so its better against tougher opponents. There's worse things. Unfortunately, you're still stuck on a Cannoness with no jump pack. It's a surprising punch, not game breaking but it will help you with one on one fights against someone with a low invulnerable save (Which I can't think of many. But there's not many lady's out there who can reliably solo a squad of super marines.)
Grade: B (When combined with Trait and Conviction, which you should do)

Strat:
+1 to wound in melee. (Murder! Murder! Murder! Kill! Kill! Kill! Could be clutch in isolation. Won't be momentum shifting because it'll be on repentia or Zyraphim. Would be useful for our most respected lady of unbelievable murder though - ¥olandi for short)
Grade: C

FINAL GRADE: B- (A one trick pony, but an impressive tricks that gets polite claps from the crowd. On a Marine frame this becomes hilariously amazing but this is not an all comers army build. This is built from the ground up to slice and tear. Probably in a vanguard detachment as an ally rather than a fully army. However, you're still running face first into bolt rifles and Primaris marines. But 8+ squads of repentia is something I've definately wanted to try. An overall more cohesive and useful set of abilities than Valorous heart but less useful as well. Which is sad because a bunch of power armored nuns ripping someone limb from limb like an angry wookie is one of the reasons I started this game.)

EBON CHALICE: (We are the black cups! Look upon us and tremble.)
5+++ against mortal wounds only. Plus, burn an MD to make another MD a 6+ (Smite spam is a real problem, please talk to your doctor about it. However, if you end up facing a psyker light list this becomes almost useless with other strats and abilities and wargear. A psyker heavy list will still murder the face off you. Could be the difference between a dead Rhino and a live one but I wouldn't write home about it. (Please talk to me, dad) The second part of always getting a 6 does have its uses but I'm not sold on the whole MD system as it is. Finding a way to burn off a bad roll into a good roll is better than nothing and might have a use if you build your army around it but I still remain stubbornly unconvinced)
Grade: D+ (But I may be convinced otherwise)

Warlord trait: (I've got something in my pocket for you)
The first miracle die you gain at the start of your round is a 6. Gain D3 command points at the start of the game. (This is actually fairly good, built around the MD system - which again, I get it - and the D3 command points is welcome but I can't help but feel they didn't really know what to do with this warlord trait.)
Grade: C+ (This should probably be switched in some way with our order of the dead ladies for theme)

Relic:
Replaces a Condemnor bolter. Which means you have to admit that you bought a rifle with a crossbow on top and didn't have the common decency to make it an underslung weapon. Can snipe character with D3 damage. Can snipe psykers with 3 damage. S:5 with rapid fire. Not too terrible. Two shots could do 6 damage and actually kill something. Not reliable but could be a fun surprise. These are the relics that never get taken in a book though.
Grade: D-

Strat:
We are the gods of hellfire. Pick a unit. Pay 2 CP. Make every flamer in that unit fire at sixes. Funny on a Dominon squad for 4 dead marines. Really funny on a Retributor squad for 8 dead marines. Season 3 of the venture brothers funny on overwatch for when someone is coming to give you danger hugs. Can be sprung from an immolator as well for 12 shots of outside of a hotpocket burning.
Grade: B-

FINAL GRADE: C- (A really underwhelming mixed bag. Like trail mix with no M&M's. An okay warlord trait and a funny strat does not a sub-faction make. A conviction that will win you the game about 20% of the time and be a weight around your neck the other 80.)

ARGENT SHROUD: (The Silvered hoods)
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved. (This one is so short I feel like there was a copy/paste error in printing and there's a whole second part we're missing. Running to get in melta range is useful, with MD dice to promise the distance. Still, they're only melta guns. If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-

Warlord Trait:
6" Heroic intervention and always fight first. (Still a cannoness, probably won't turn the tide and there's better warlord traits out there.)
Grade: D+

Relic:
-1 to hit against her at all times. (This brings up an interesting idea. She could be bait, making marines hit on a 4. But, if you do that, she will still die. If she ends up in close combat with someone this will make her survive longer but ultimately won't save her against something she already would die against. Interesting for wrapping up a gunline unit and could, in theory, completely avoid overwatch with the -1 to hit. Has a use I could see, but not amazing.)
Grade: C-

Strat:
1 units gains a 5+++ against mortal wounds. (Pay a CP to gain an ability another sub-faction has on all the time. However, since this is situational you have more options with your army. I feel this should've either been a normal Strat or one for black cups to up their existing ability. This could save an exposed unit, or allow you to put a Rhino in the way to harrass a smite farm and still keep it alive. But it's your only exclusive strat and it's a big disappointment to its mom and its whole family. Weirdly, it's not just in the psychic phase, so you could may save someone from an exploding vehicle. But that feels like a reach.
Grade: D+

FINAL GRADE: D (Poor Conviction, Poor Warlord trait, okay relic, poor strat. Needs much improvement. If there's a loser in this codex. It's these girls right here. Wear the dunce hat and write lines on the board)

SACRED ROSE: (Has its thorns. There's a lot of music based puns today)
No more than 1 model can flee due to moral. When you perform an act of faith, gain a die back on a 5+. ALSO. Overwatch on a 5+. (There's a lot to unpack here. I feel like at least one of these abilities should've been shoved over to the hoods. Morale won't be much of an issue unless you're doing huge squadettes, so eh. The ability to regain MD on a roll is like the relic to regain CP but worse, because I don't like MD as much as I like neat CP tricks. But, built in rather than a relic and so more useful. Finally, overwatching on a 5+ is better than nothing. It's the most packed one so it's way more versatile but none of them on their own are that impressive.)
Grade: C+

Warlord trait:
Gain a MD when your warlord uses an MD. Self explanatory but relies on your belief in the MD system. Works very well with it but I'm not sure how often your warlord will be using MD for herself. Once a phase in theory but I'd be baffled if you did that and weren't intentionally trying to lose more than you already are by playing Sisters of battle
Grade: D+

Relic:
A super-de-dooper version of the Brazier of holy fire. -1 LD to deamons. D3 mortal wounds as a flamer. D6 if you're shooting a Demon. Can burn an MD to make it more than 1 use only. This is strange, because it's in some ways worse than the generic relic of this and it doesn't work on Chaos or Psykers. Which you'd expect it to considering whom the sisters are keen to fight. Ordos Hereticus in general usually. It comes down to how often you have to face Demons. If you face them a bunch, then happy times, this is the book for you.
Grade: C-

Strat:
Bolter shots of a 6+ scores an additional hit. Counterpoint to the passion. Judgment and passion. The cosmic ballet, goes on. Explosions of bolters are always nice. But you can't rely on it and can't build a list around it. Still, better than nothing. Like my stepdad.
Grade: C-

FINAL GRADE: C- (Probably the most schizo of all the Convents. Bit of more bolters, bit of deamon killing. Bit of MD regrowth. Bit of overwatch. Bit of LD modification. It spreads out in a confusing but broad way. Lots of options but no focus. It's the anti Bloody Rose. If for some reason you don't take Toni Braxton or the Kiss from a Rose, take these. Gives you the biggest spread for your buck.


Class grades:
MARTYRED LADY: D+
VALOROUS HEART: B+
BLOODY ROSE: B-
EBON CHALICE: C-
ARGENT SHROUD: D
SACRED ROSE: C-

Thank you for reading, I encourage your feed back and thank you for your time. In our final part, we will be discussing generic strats and Relics and giving a final run down.

A.T. wrote:

SaltyNoob wrote:
E.g. celestians d rank? valorous celestians are goib to be 3+/4++ ignore -1 and -2 ap(being way more durable then a plaguebearer vs almost everything), 3 attacks strength 4 rerolls all hits. That means they hit as hard as an interceasor in melee and are more then twice the durabilty vs things such as avenger gattlers.

While true, this particular celestian unit is being buffed by 280 points of characters including the warlord, a specific order, and a stratagem (or another 45pts)

Collectively you are looking at a 400+ point group of units to... hit as hard an an intercessor squad. With no means of moving quickly around the table.


IMO the celestians are still functional enough meatshields to warrant a slightly better score, though it's a pity that they have the 'one shock blocked, six models die' form of bodyguard with no mitigation.

Given that you are already slamming those characters in your list before you even decided to take Celestians its kind of a wash. You just happen to have every buff you need before you purchase the celestians so eh. They are far from dedicated to building a celestian 'deathstar'.(how are you not taking celestine, imagifiers, preacher/missionary, canoness?????), have an easy 24-25" threat range for charging(are the best unit in the codex to capitalize on the simalcrum+my 4 games with sisters have led me in a path believing that advance +charge is the absolute best use for miracles), no fail rate, so yes they actually do move around the table and for the intercessors to be comparable would need a captain upgraded to master + a lt. 10 buffed celestians+chars =400, 10 buffed intercessors+chars=400. I don't think that point holds up about the cost to create them in their prime imo. There is basically no powerful thing in 8th that doesn't hold a x+y+z formula. Prenerf ynnari spears are hot garbage without the warlocks and farseers and such to go with them.

Like those 300 point clump of characters are also buffing the dirt cheap triple battalion giving you 18 cp so its really not fair to say ya its 400 points for 1 celestian unit. Scew the body guard function its really not something to be focused on. Its nice if it comes up thats it. Your paying +1 point for battle sisters with +! ws, attack, reroll all hits with additional utility stratagem after you have taken the troop slots needed for cp. Sisters have always had a horde archetype and these fill a roll nicely as back up battle sisters once the cp farm has reached its cap.

I am very happy with the humble battle sister at 9 considering its force multipliers, and gear options. 1 point for ws, A, reroll hits, LD and body guard rule (these buffs also make you feel better using simulacrums and cherubs on them) on any solid unit in the game is exceptionally nutty. CP is the only reason these girls don't deserve an A.

 Celtic Strike wrote:

ARGENT SHROUD: (The Silvered hoods)
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved. (This one is so short I feel like there was a copy/paste error in printing and there's a whole second part we're missing. Running to get in melta range is useful, with MD dice to promise the distance. Still, they're only melta guns. If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-

Way too low IMO. Speed is good. Speed gives you objectives. Ability to advance and still shoot all those bolters etc is good. You arent' cutting up all of your firepower with advance and can literally just swamp into enemy DZ double fast boxing them in. Being nephrek player for necrons I keep getting benefit from THEIR speedy rule. While this isn't as speedy(no automatic 6 alas) the weapons benefit more as sisters are rocking more rapid fire and heavy weapons.

If you only look at melta's for this you are looking at the conviction from wrong angle.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
EBON CHALICE: Grade: D-

There may be some mileage to be had from 36 heavy flamer hits (strat and cherubs), 5+++ bodyguards, and the complimentary command points and dice of 6.

I don't see them as the main order in a list, but as an order on the side they can absorb low dice and convert them into high dice, as a warlord they have a little more protection against getting assassinated than others, and a single point is a low investment to have their relic 'unlocked' in the event you face psykers (weird HQ equipment restrictions not withstanding).

SaltyNoob wrote:
Like those 300 point clump of characters are also buffing the dirt cheap triple battalion giving you 18 cp so its really not fair to say ya its 400 points for 1 celestian unit.

They had to be called out as you were comparing celestians with every buff under the sun to a non-buffed, non-close combat unit.

tneva82 wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

ARGENT SHROUD: (The Silvered hoods)
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved. (This one is so short I feel like there was a copy/paste error in printing and there's a whole second part we're missing. Running to get in melta range is useful, with MD dice to promise the distance. Still, they're only melta guns. If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-

Way too low IMO. Speed is good. Speed gives you objectives. Ability to advance and still shoot all those bolters etc is good. You arent' cutting up all of your firepower with advance and can literally just swamp into enemy DZ double fast boxing them in. Being nephrek player for necrons I keep getting benefit from THEIR speedy rule. While this isn't as speedy(no automatic 6 alas) the weapons benefit more as sisters are rocking more rapid fire and heavy weapons.

If you only look at melta's for this you are looking at the conviction from wrong angle.

yeah a lot of the early reports are suggesting the argent shroud are damn good. I mean it's basicly a straight up improvement of the black legion trait (to the point where if black legion had their trait changed to this I'd be VERY VERY happy) although he's right that it feels..... incomplete.

The arbitrary grading system doesn't completely detract from some of your insight, but it absolutely doesn't help.

I suggest making your grading system clearer so that readers can better understand the basis of your assessment. What you've defined here is a set of rules seemingly assessed in a vacuum with no indication that you thought of or considered the sum of their parts.

I'd love to see what you have to say after getting in a dozen or so games.

You might get more mileage out of your review if you don't insult people when you write them.

I'm sure you're just going to say you were joking.

Your jokes weren't funny either.

Well I found it interesting and a good read.

I think the grades being where they are if you consider the SM codex + supplement to be a bar probably makes sense, although I agree you seriously undervalue the ability to advance without penalty with all your shooty units.

I also think you are too hard on MD, but I think that whether you're right or not will become clear over time. I just think the number of times I've had a close game come down to a couple of clutch moments means when they matter they'll be great.
Passing a morale or save to keep an objective, or stop a character being opened up to be shot at, or kill the last model in a unit for the opposite etc etc...
Removing chance from those situation is potentially incredible but very difficult to put a value on.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Honour the Martyrs (We get it, you like dying)
If an enemy kills a unit of yours, re-roll 1s to hit until the end of the game. A funny, always stays on strat that is fluffy and sort of useful. However, since we'd probably be running 3 cannoness' for their cost and our general lack of options we should have good coverage. Might be nice for a roaming, melta dom squadette to take vengeance with. But, then, whom did their unit kill?

Consider the units the canoness cannot reach - seraphim and zepharim. Since they aren't coming down until turn 2 and nothing is deepstriking with them this could be useful, though I expect Bloody Rose to be the preferred seraphim order and this use is invalidated the moment GW get a jump canoness out.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved...
If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-

Remember the faithful advance rule. Retributors can move, advance, and then fire their heavy weapons with no penalty.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Warlord trait:
Gain a MD when your warlord uses an MD. Self explanatory but relies on your belief in the MD system. Works very well with it but I'm not sure how often your warlord will be using MD for herself.

Potentially a trap...
As characters, vehicles, seraphim, etc all share the same single use of faith each phase the only time you'd likely want to get something out of this would be deny the witch - sacking a good dice and then hoping for another back. In other phases there are almost always going to be better units to use it on unless you are down to fumes and hoping to chuck a 1 or 2 on a random bolt pistol shot and recycle it for something better.

A.T. wrote:

As characters, vehicles, seraphim, etc all share the same single use of faith each phase the only time you'd likely want to get something out of this would be deny the witch - sacking a good dice and then hoping for another back. In other phases there are almost always going to be better units to use it on unless you are down to fumes and hoping to chuck a 1 or 2 on a random bolt pistol shot and recycle it for something better.

Nothing I've seen says the act of faith has to be successful, unless I've overlooked something?

This gives you a way of recycling 1s and 2s in phases that you'd not have used a dive. Attempt to deny a power on a d6 doesn't mean you have to be able to, so use a 1 and hope for a better roll. Or advance your cannoness for 1 if you have nothing to shoot and don't need the dice. I'm sure there are other times too.

 Celtic Strike wrote:

ARGENT SHROUD: (The Silvered hoods)
Shoot as if you haven't advanced. NOT as if you haven't moved. (This one is so short I feel like there was a copy/paste error in printing and there's a whole second part we're missing. Running to get in melta range is useful, with MD dice to promise the distance. Still, they're only melta guns. If you have to advance and fire your Heavy bolters, you're still hitting on 4's and made a Will Arnett level error.
Grade: D-

not that i don't generally agree with some of your other commentary, but i want to talk about this one a bit.

yes, i agree that the bloody rose and valourous heart will likely be the most played because of how direct their benefits are and the internal synergies they get out of the book, Argent Shrouds conviction is not that bad... but definitely FEELS lacking when you read how many other things the others get, and their respective synergies. I do indeed would have liked more.

I'm REALLY not looking forward to valourous heart reports on the tables, incidentally. but back to the Shroud. if your building more along a shooting design and focusing on objectives over kills, Argent Shroud has a bit of an interesting niche, in that all your infantry including retributors due to their rules, can fully shoot and run at no penalties. the vehicles can't, and this is not so much an issue of the conviction as them putting emperor danged heavy bolters on all the immolators and exorcists. i don't know if id recommend the hand of the emperor sacred rite with this, though it would allow uninhibited d6+1 advances all day, and you can chuck miracle dice into key advances on top of that.

Funny thing about that though. the Repressor still got it's points, which based on what did and didn't in CA 2019, means it's more likely it's still around to be used. and last i checked, it has no heavy bolter, and it's flamers are heavy instead of the immolators assault flamer. now, i don't know the point cost of a going immolator right now, but I think the Repressor has access to order convictions, but doesn't have access to Act of faith nor sacred rites unless an errata has come through very recently. still though, it may be an alternative if your going for a mech style, because it still lets you fire out of it. while we don't have vanguard vehicle dominions anymore (and that's very sad) the repressor could still be a useful firebase potentially. no idea how miracle dice would interact with shooting from the sisters inside it, though. even if your bringing the other vehicles, firing the now mandatory heavy bolters on advance may well be better than advancing and not getting to fire them at all.

...all of that said in a vague defense of the order conviction, i more or less agree with your thoughts on the orders other unique things. as someone who very much likes the argent shroud, it was a let down.