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2019/12/02 23:02:42
Subject: Re:Sisters of battle 8th edition codex review Pt. 1 (Miracle die, sacred rites and EVERY unit)
Lammia wrote: SM Captain with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is a good melee model, you can take a list full of them and they are all equally terrifying. You just don't do that because it's expensive and tou have other options.
Not sure this is a good fight to get into - but if they are expensive and you have other options, they are likely not that good.
I know people tried to make 3 captains work - but the general consensus was no, it didn't. Because the Blood Angel captain relies on various things coming together to create a monster. A second just about works (since you can throw stratagems into him if the first dies early and take another reasonable relic), but you are paying too much for the added redundancy of the third.
Which isn't to say a captain is a bad model per se, but its not setting the world on fire without that combination. As you say - its expensive and you have other options.
Its Archon Envy - but if the Canoness was baseline 70 points, for reasons, she'd be much, much worse, even though her potential loadouts are the same.
For one model you might say an extra 25 points isn't *that much* - but 75 points when you take 3 (as you may do - special characters depending) would feel like agony.
One might be worth taking because of the added relic and trait - but by the time you get to number 3 its clearly a tax.
Its partly why I don't think Faith and Fury helped CSM that much. For most of the legions it just facilitated hero hammer - i.e. you can have 1 or 2 really tooled our characters who are going to blend anything they get into contact with. But two good characters can't typically carry a list or a faction. In conjunction with the CA changes though I think things will change.
Oh, she's a great HQ at her cost. But measuring her value by 1 Unique upgrade (one Relic, one WL trait) is a mistake.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, that's not true. It depends on how useful this particular Relic can be and how it scales with other Canoness' presence on the board.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/02 23:16:21
My package hasn't arrived yet, so I haven't had the opportunity to play the new codex yet, but here are Katherine's gradings so far on the abilities, stratagems, and traits:
Starting at the top with Order special options:
In general, among these, the Conviction is the most important factor in deciding what Order to pick, since it applies to all units in the detachment and you have to have it instead of any other options if you want to use the other three features so you can't get around it being weak. Stratagem, Warlord, and Relic are less important since you don't have to use them if they're weak and you just like the Conviction. Of them, Stratagem is the most important since if it's good it can frequently make it worth making a specific set of your army out of a subfaction, but Warlord and Relic are just kind of bonuses to already having the subfaction selected and will eat into your ability to use those of other subfactions and factions within your list.
Spoiler:
Order of the Valorous Heart: A-
Conviction: B+. Ignoring AP-1 or AP-2 is an okay ability. It's almost tailor-made to face off Space Marines with a foothorde of Sisters. It's worth mention that efficiency wise, AP-1 [&2 with doctrines] is basically the worst thing in the world for an MEQ unit, so being able to shake it is a decent ability. That said, there's also a lot of armies that really just won't give a damn with everything running AP0 or AP-3+. This trait also gets an honorable mention for being one of the few that actually achieves anything meaningful for vehicles, even if it's not exactly the most useful buff to vehicles ever, it's not wholly useless or outright defunct on a Exorcist. This is probably the overall best-in-the-book Conviction, though it's not awesome by the global standard and requires a character to actually achieve it's usefulness potential [were it not for it's stacking with the Imagifier, it'd be graded about a C+ since it's an initially weakish ability that is also weaker than similar abilities globally].
Warlord: D. There's better traits in the book, and while a 5+++ might be pretty cool on something already absurdly hard to kill like a T6 W7 Sv2+/3++ model that moves 14" a turn, a Canoness isn't that resilient. It could be worse, though.
Stratagem: A. Ignoring penalties to hit in shooting is pretty awesome. Not only can you tell Space Marines to stuff their bolt rifles up their ass, you can blast right through all the stacking -1's. It also works on vehicles apparently, so this further cements this Order as the one for Exorcists, since one of your tanks can be moving and spending CP to not take the penalty.
Relic: C. This relic has an effect that has potential, but can't be properly capitalized on in-faction.
This is probably the best order in the book, and one of the two to consider assigning the bulk of your force too. As the only one with good benefits for vehicles, if you want Argent Shroud for your main infantry arm, you should be segregating your Exorcists into Valorous Heart.
Order of the Argent Shroud: B
Conviction: B. Advancing and firing as if you didn't is pretty decent considering the remarkably short range of weapons in our inventory. This gives your infantry groups improved mobility to get to good positions, and can make deciding differences in your ability to bring important weapons systems onto target. However, it doesn't compare favorably with similar incarnations of this ability out there in Sautekh and Tallarn. Compared with Sautekh, you do get to rapid-fire after advancing, so it's a little stronger on infantry [Meltaguns are assault anyway, though, and Pistols don't Rapid-Fire], but it doesn't come with the ability to ignore movement penalties for Heavy Weapons, which is a big downside. Tallarn is the ultimate form of this ability, with both the ability to advance and rapid fire, advance and ignore Assault penalties, and move and fire Heavy Weapons as a vehicle. This is a good ability on Seraphim, who are no longer really keen on charging and can use the extra D6 movement to make up for their completely crap range.
Warlord: B+. This is a cool trait. 6" Heroic and striking first is good for a countercharger to protect your line of otherwise mostly incapable in melee Sisters. 6" Heroic is also just a decent ability for a character to have, and it doesn't interfere with her ability to take relics and wargear to be awesome in close quarters combat. Is it better than Righteous Rage, though?
Stratagem: F. 5+++ versus mortal wounds for 1 unit in the psychic phase? You shouldn't spend CP on this.
Relic: D. A shiny hat is nice and all, but people really shouldn't be shooting at her that much, and if they are, it's not going to save you. It also competes with better relics, and there's plenty of ways to be adequately safe from dying if you aren't losing badly.
This is the other order to consider making the bulk of your army out of. It's weaker than many similar subfactions in the pool, but in the restricted case of the codex, it's decent enough. Basically I'd say it's minimum passing grade.
Order of the Bloody Rose: B+
Conviction: B+. +1 AP and +1A is decent, period. It's somewhat restrained through by the fact that there's few units to actually take advantage of it, but the one [three] that do really do. Like Valorous Heart, to really make it work, you need to have a Imagifier to actually be good in melee, without which it'll drop to a B+ or so. It's not the best for the army universally, but it's so good on the units it's good on and isn't garbage on so many more that you could even make it your whole army if you don't want to fiddle with detachments.
Warlord: C+. Advancing and charging is nice for the Canoness. +1A is icing on the cake. That said, there are better in the book for the Bloody Rose, so you take this as your second trait if you're forgoing other ones.
Stratagem: A. +1 to Wound in Close Quarters. Yes please! Watch Repentia turn Knights into ribbons [30 wounds average on the first pass from a full squad], or eat enemy units alive with your Canoness.
Relic: A. The Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment is made out of awesome. Take Righteous Rage and stay near an Imagifier [and/or pop the stratagem] to do your best Captain Smash impression. Things will die, blood will flow, and Khorne"The Emperor" will be pleased.
This order is the order for your Canonii, Repentia, and Zephyrim. On the units that benefit from it, it's really, really good. On the rest of your units, it'll be okay, so there's not actually harm in making your whole army this, though other units would rather have Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart. In general, I'd chose to make a Vanguard or Battalion Bloody Rose, and the rest something else.
Order of the Ebon Chalice C+
Conviction: C-. Spend 2 Miracle Dice to make one count as a 6. Uh... this is pretty limited in use. It is fairly unique though, but making 1 damage roll a turn a 6 just isn't worth your entire army trait. That's a 1CP stratagem or warlord trait level ability. You can use this to benefit Exorcists, though it's still fundamentally limited by being basically once per phase which is still weak for an army trait.
Warlord: B-. Congratulations, you just make your Conviction obsolete! It's better in a vacuum than tied to the conviction, so just bringing a character with this trait along can prove valuable to help your non-Ebon Chalice units make their charges or max out their damage rolls. If you want this, you can make your tank hunter squadron lead by her since AT weapons are AP-3 often times anyway.
Stratagem: C+. Max out flamer shots would be better if you could get as many flamers as an aggressor squad. Might be worth it for doms with flamers, but probably not worth losing Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart for rets.
Relic: F. You're not going to actually kill anybody with this.
The okay Warlord Trait is stuck with a really bad conviction, but this is an alternate option for your exorcist battery if the rest of your army is Argent Shroud or Bloody Rose, since a 6 for an advance roll for AS or a charge roll for BR would make your day.
Order of the Sacred Rose: D
Conviction: D+. Refunding Miracle dice isn't a worthwhile endeavour. In an MSU army, which you are, preventing morale loss isn't worth losing a potentially actually useful trait. Overwatching on 5+'s is only good if you can also overwatch with the right kind of weapon, otherwise it's also largely pointless.
Warlord: F+. If the warlord uses the miracle dice for herself, refund it. At least you got the miracle die you wasted back, but you don't get the opportunity to use it back.
Stratagem: C. Exploding bolters for one unit is a pass. Maybe if you got as many attacks from that one unit as aggressors... but you don't.
Relic. D. Okay get to hate a little bit on Daemons. It's still not even that strong against them, and is otherwise defunct. A single-faction hate relic's going rate is the Relic of Lost Cadia, this doesn't hold a torch.
All right, we're starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel. There's nothing here worth taking this order for. But we haven't reached the bottom yet, because...
Order of Our Martyred Lady: F
Conviction: F. It's defunct when you're winning, and requires your enemy to politely cooperate with you in order to actually be useful even then. Also, it requires you to bring large squads to even have any hope of getting any use out of, which you probably don't want to be doing too much anyway.
Warlord: D-. Congratulations, you're a Terminator!
Stratagem: D+. A character died, and now your whole army gets the benefit of the most common kind of character in your army who you almost have to have three of anyway. Woo.
Relic: D-. It's not like gun relics are usually best in class, and it's an Inferno Pistol on a foot unit that can't advance and shoot. At least it's S9.
Special Character: C. Rule34!Calgar got one thing going for her, and that's that she has a lieutenant aura which nobody else does. On the downside, you've got to have this Order to get it, so the whole package isn't worthwhile.
If your trait is only worthwhile when you're losing the game, it better actually turn the tide of battle. This doesn't, so it's like picking to not have a trait.
Moving on to the Warlord Traits and Relics:
As a whole, Relics can score more highly for just being passable than Warlord Traits because many relics can be handed out if they're worth a CP for the bearer to carry, but taking any given warlord trait means not having a different one.
Spoiler:
Righteous Rage: A. It's that time of month for Ms. Stabby. It's always that time of month. Give this to your Canoness with the Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment.
Indomitable Belief: A-. Now all your nearby people have a 5++. Warlord traits don't have to go to Canonii, so an Imagifier can have this and stand with the Bloody Rose Repentia [and Celestine] to make them 4++/5+++.
Beacon of Faith: B-. +1 Miracle Dice. Not worth having over the better options, but like, it could be worse.
Inspiring Orator: C-. Run less. It's not like you cared all that much in the first place.
Pure of Faith: F+. You get another 1d6 deny roll to not succeed with.
Executioner of Heretics: F+. Ask the night lords how much stacking -1 leadership works out for them, and then consider that this is on one model and has little to stack with.
Blade of Admonition: A-. Unfortunately went up in cost, but it does to 3 damage. Give it to a Canoness.
Burning Stick of No More Fun: B+. You must take this for Shield of Faith to actually do anything. While it's not guaranteed to work, it actually might now as opposed to always failing.
Bolt Pistol of Many Bullets: D. There aren't many good gun relics, what made you think this one was different.
Litanies of Faith: A-. Re-roll your Miracle dice to make them go farther. Probably worth the CP to have some backfield character hanging out with the Exorcists carry it.
Mantle of Orphelia: C+. You already have a 4++, and it can only go on Canonii. It would be good on a Imagifier, but alas.
Tryptech of Marcharius: D. Woo. a FNP. Not worth a CP Book of Loudness: B-. Wider Auras are nice, though most of the time 6" is wide enough.
Iron Corset of Saint Istalia: B-. Probably the best of the survivability relics. Still probably not worth the CP, since there are other relics you want.
On to Sacred Vows:
Each of these not only locks out having the other ones, but also locks out having the Loyal 32 or Thunderfire Guns or Knight Support or whatever soup of the day you feel like having. They have to be stronger than both each other, and stronger than potential allies, to be worthwhile.
Spoiler:
Hand of the Emperor: B+. Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose can both make good use of this. Probably the best of the lot.
The Passion: B-. Death to the False Everything would be nice for Bloody Rose. However, is it worth not being able to suppress overwatch with Thunderfire Guns or Pounding Barrage? Probably not you're killy enough as is.
Aegis of the Emperor: C+. If you also have the Burning Stick of No More Fun, these two will stack to be really good against some armies. Unfortunately, a great many armies just won't care about your great investment in stopping their fun.
Divine Guidance: D+. Everything either has good AP already and isn't likely to provoke this, or is going to see this as a drop in the bucket.
Light of the Emperor: C-. And We Shall Know No Fear. This is definitely not worth being able to take allies.
Spirit of the Martyr: C+. A 5+ chance to shoot when you die is questionable on the best of day, and definitely not worth not souping.
The long and short is, that none of these are worth not being able to bring other Imperial assets to help out. Even if you're mono, you'll not really be noticing the difference, but you should probably shoot for Aegis if the time calls for it, otherwise Hand.
For stratagems:
Spoiler:
Open the Reliquaries: A+ Now we can have many relics. There are at least 3 relics I have my eye on, and it makes all the relics more useful since the cost and opportunity cost of taking them is reduced.
Prophecy: C+ re-roll wounds of 1 if you have Zephyrim. Okay, maybe, if you have Zerphyrim and can buff them with an Imagifier, this will make them do some work. Maybe.
Furious Recital: F With such a name, I want to like the stratagem, but like doing leadership penalites as single-faction hate isn't really a worthwhile use of time or page space
Blazing Piety: F Weak single-faction hate.
Battle Rites: D- Change your sacred rite. You have to change it with a die roll. In general, when you want to change your rite, you want to change it too something, not away from something.
Moment of Grace: B+. Spend Miracle Dice to add +1 to rolls after making the roll. Decent, and probably better than the miracle dice themselves.
Final Redemption: C-. Repentia do mortals half the time when the die. That's not that good.
Martyr's Immolation: B-. Like many real fanatic sectarian groups, the Sisters of Battle have car bombs. There are good odds you will have an Immolator in your army, and only moderately worse odds that you will find a good time to do D3 mortal wounds to nearby enemy units. Funny and good when it happens, and a neat tool in your pocket, but not something to be building around.
Holy Trinity: B+. Wound support for your meltaguns. Decent, but only because a combi-flamer is much cheaper than a combi-melta [for a squad of 4 meltaguns, it's statistically about the same as arming the sergeant with a combi melta]
More Warlords: A+. There are more than one good warlord trait option in the book, so might as well take 2.
Reanimation: A+. Spend Miracle Dice, and you don't even have to roll to stand back up. Necrons wish they were so cool.
Holy Rage: A. Advance and Charge is good, but watch out for outrunning your support.
Faith and Fury: B-. Basically, your one shot is going to hit and wound. That said, it's one shot.
Martyred: B. Gain CP when your warlord dies. A booby prize for her death, but could be worse. Always use it when she dies if you don't reanimate her, because it's effectively free.
Venerated Saint: C. Imagifier gets 2 abilities. Odds are, the one providing +1S doesn't also need to be providing ignore AP-1.
Suffer not the Witch: C. If you could pick out psykers maybe this would do something. As is, use it to make Tyranids unhappy, otherwise, kind of ignore it.
Storm of Retribution: B-. This one is complicated, but is fundamentally 3 1CP stratagems in 1 2CP stratagem, that don't all take effect together. 2CP for a shooting stratagem should give you a second salvo, the going rate for +1 to hit is 1CP. The other functions are all also 1CP abilities, with the melta function being the closest to a 2CP ability.
Last Rites: B+. Autopass Morale if there's a Hosptialler there. Basically a cheaper but conditional version of the base 2CP one.
Devastating Refrain: B+. Your Exorcist may re-roll outputs, but use it before it fires. Awesome name.
Deadly Descent: C-. It doesn't last until the end of the turn, so it's only for the special salvo they get on arrival. In terms of firepower, it's roughly equivalent to starting them on the board, but they won't be able to get into short melta range in exchange for not being able to be shot off and having a tough charge.
Vessel of His Will: C-. Turn a CP into a Miracle Dice. The only two uses I can see for this are for fueling the resurrection or +1 to a die roll stratagems. CP are generally more useful
Test of Faith: C-. Turn CP into more Miracle Dice, but not on demand.
Proficient: B- Celestians get to re-roll hits and wounds. This doesn't make them good, probably.
Blessed Bolts: A- Okay for Dominions with Storm Bolters, and useful for killing Primaris. Niche, but good when it's in useful.
Purity of Faith: A+. Against most armies, this will break that one power they were counting on more effectively than the burning stick of no more fun and the sacred rite combined.
Judgement of the Faithful: A. Shoot when falling back. Good, especially considering the short range. Works on tanks.
Triggered: B-. Make Arcos killier. Not really super worthwhile, but maybe.
Desperate for Redemption: A. Fight Twice with Repentia or Mortifiers or Pengines. While most 3CP fight twice stratagems let you target any unit [because you wanted to use this on Chainsaw Canoness, right?], you were probably going to hit Repentia with it anyway.
Stratagems are overall good. There is unfortunately none to suppress overwatch, which would have been good for an Exorcist or something and would have made the Sacred Rites more appealing since you wouldn't have to source in Thunderfire Guns or Basilisks to be able to charge Centurions or Aggressors or a lot of things since Repentia are really fragile.
As for unit changes:
Spoiler:
Exorcist: C+. Unfortunately, you're going to have to live with it because it's the only thing that can reach out and touch someone, but going up all those points isn't worth the better launcher in the least.
Zephyrim: C. Maybe you can get something out of them with Bloody Rose. Are Banshees good, though?
Retributors: A-. Whatever weapon you chose, a solid option. Apparently, being angry is the final technological development in weapons stabilization, and I can run and hip-fire a heavy machinegun more accurately than tanks with laser-guided rockets, gyrostabilized gunlaying systems, and/or multispecturm optics as long as I'm very, very cross.
Motifiers: B. A Pentient Engine by another name acts like a Penitent Engine.
Dominions: B+. Not being able to scout transports makes them sad, but they were already made sad by the existence of the Space Marines.
Imagifier: A. These girls are must haves for your army for some subfactions and builds.
Hospitaller: B. The best medic in the game, but medics aren't that great.
Dialogus: C. is changing miracle dice worth a character? Not really.
Triumph of Saint Katherine: D. For a unit that not only shares my name, but proclaims my victory, I want to like this. That said, a T3 Sv3+ character with 18 wounds isn't going to be good in any world, and it's buffs aren't really that good.
All in all, I would grade our codex as a C+ or a B-. It's not good. C's get degrees, but don't get jobs [or degrees in Grad School]; and in line with that I think it'll be okay for ****ing around with low tier casual lists, but not going to get any call backs when it matters.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/03 02:47:11
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2019/12/03 04:46:59
Subject: Re:Sisters of battle 8th edition codex review Pt. 1 (Miracle die, sacred rites and EVERY unit)
My package hasn't arrived yet, so I haven't had the opportunity to play the new codex yet, but here are Katherine's gradings so far on the abilities, stratagems, and traits:
Starting at the top with Order special options:
In general, among these, the Conviction is the most important factor in deciding what Order to pick, since it applies to all units in the detachment and you have to have it instead of any other options if you want to use the other three features so you can't get around it being weak. Stratagem, Warlord, and Relic are less important since you don't have to use them if they're weak and you just like the Conviction. Of them, Stratagem is the most important since if it's good it can frequently make it worth making a specific set of your army out of a subfaction, but Warlord and Relic are just kind of bonuses to already having the subfaction selected and will eat into your ability to use those of other subfactions and factions within your list.
[spoiler]Order of the Valorous Heart: A-
Conviction: B+. Ignoring AP-1 or AP-2 is an okay ability. It's almost tailor-made to face off Space Marines with a foothorde of Sisters. It's worth mention that efficiency wise, AP-1 [&2 with doctrines] is basically the worst thing in the world for an MEQ unit, so being able to shake it is a decent ability. That said, there's also a lot of armies that really just won't give a damn with everything running AP0 or AP-3+. This trait also gets an honorable mention for being one of the few that actually achieves anything meaningful for vehicles, even if it's not exactly the most useful buff to vehicles ever, it's not wholly useless or outright defunct on a Exorcist. This is probably the overall best-in-the-book Conviction, though it's not awesome by the global standard and requires a character to actually achieve it's usefulness potential [were it not for it's stacking with the Imagifier, it'd be graded about a C+ since it's an initially weakish ability that is also weaker than similar abilities globally].
Warlord: D. There's better traits in the book, and while a 5+++ might be pretty cool on something already absurdly hard to kill like a T6 W7 Sv2+/3++ model that moves 14" a turn, a Canoness isn't that resilient. It could be worse, though.
Stratagem: A. Ignoring penalties to hit in shooting is pretty awesome. Not only can you tell Space Marines to stuff their bolt rifles up their ass, you can blast right through all the stacking -1's. It also works on vehicles apparently, so this further cements this Order as the one for Exorcists, since one of your tanks can be moving and spending CP to not take the penalty.
Relic: C. This relic has an effect that has potential, but can't be properly capitalized on in-faction.
This is probably the best order in the book, and one of the two to consider assigning the bulk of your force too. As the only one with good benefits for vehicles, if you want Argent Shroud for your main infantry arm, you should be segregating your Exorcists into Valorous Heart.
Order of the Argent Shroud: B
Conviction: B. Advancing and firing as if you didn't is pretty decent considering the remarkably short range of weapons in our inventory. This gives your infantry groups improved mobility to get to good positions, and can make deciding differences in your ability to bring important weapons systems onto target. However, it doesn't compare favorably with similar incarnations of this ability out there in Sautekh and Tallarn. Compared with Sautekh, you do get to rapid-fire after advancing, so it's a little stronger on infantry [Meltaguns are assault anyway, though, and Pistols don't Rapid-Fire], but it doesn't come with the ability to ignore movement penalties for Heavy Weapons, which is a big downside. Tallarn is the ultimate form of this ability, with both the ability to advance and rapid fire, advance and ignore Assault penalties, and move and fire Heavy Weapons as a vehicle. This is a good ability on Seraphim, who are no longer really keen on charging and can use the extra D6 movement to make up for their completely crap range.
Warlord: B+. This is a cool trait. 6" Heroic and striking first is good for a countercharger to protect your line of otherwise mostly incapable in melee Sisters. 6" Heroic is also just a decent ability for a character to have, and it doesn't interfere with her ability to take relics and wargear to be awesome in close quarters combat. Is it better than Righteous Rage, though?
Stratagem: F. 5+++ versus mortal wounds for 1 unit in the psychic phase? You shouldn't spend CP on this.
Relic: D. A shiny hat is nice and all, but people really shouldn't be shooting at her that much, and if they are, it's not going to save you. It also competes with better relics, and there's plenty of ways to be adequately safe from dying if you aren't losing badly.
This is the other order to consider making the bulk of your army out of. It's weaker than many similar subfactions in the pool, but in the restricted case of the codex, it's decent enough. Basically I'd say it's minimum passing grade.
Order of the Bloody Rose: B+
Conviction: B+. +1 AP and +1A is decent, period. It's somewhat restrained through by the fact that there's few units to actually take advantage of it, but the one [three] that do really do. Like Valorous Heart, to really make it work, you need to have a Imagifier to actually be good in melee, without which it'll drop to a B+ or so. It's not the best for the army universally, but it's so good on the units it's good on and isn't garbage on so many more that you could even make it your whole army if you don't want to fiddle with detachments.
Warlord: C+. Advancing and charging is nice for the Canoness. +1A is icing on the cake. That said, there are better in the book for the Bloody Rose, so you take this as your second trait if you're forgoing other ones.
Stratagem: A. +1 to Wound in Close Quarters. Yes please! Watch Repentia turn Knights into ribbons [30 wounds average on the first pass from a full squad], or eat enemy units alive with your Canoness.
Relic: A. The Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment is made out of awesome. Take Righteous Rage and stay near an Imagifier [and/or pop the stratagem] to do your best Captain Smash impression. Things will die, blood will flow, and Khorne"The Emperor" will be pleased.
This order is the order for your Canonii, Repentia, and Zephyrim. On the units that benefit from it, it's really, really good. On the rest of your units, it'll be okay, so there's not actually harm in making your whole army this, though other units would rather have Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart. In general, I'd chose to make a Vanguard or Battalion Bloody Rose, and the rest something else.
Order of the Ebon Chalice C+
Conviction: C-. Spend 2 Miracle Dice to make one count as a 6. Uh... this is pretty limited in use. It is fairly unique though, but making 1 damage roll a turn a 6 just isn't worth your entire army trait. That's a 1CP stratagem or warlord trait level ability. You can use this to benefit Exorcists, though it's still fundamentally limited by being basically once per phase which is still weak for an army trait.
Warlord: B-. Congratulations, you just make your Conviction obsolete! It's better in a vacuum than tied to the conviction, so just bringing a character with this trait along can prove valuable to help your non-Ebon Chalice units make their charges or max out their damage rolls. If you want this, you can make your tank hunter squadron lead by her since AT weapons are AP-3 often times anyway.
Stratagem: C+. Max out flamer shots would be better if you could get as many flamers as an aggressor squad. Might be worth it for doms with flamers, but probably not worth losing Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart for rets.
Relic: F. You're not going to actually kill anybody with this.
The okay Warlord Trait is stuck with a really bad conviction, but this is an alternate option for your exorcist battery if the rest of your army is Argent Shroud or Bloody Rose, since a 6 for an advance roll for AS or a charge roll for BR would make your day.
Order of the Sacred Rose: D
Conviction: D+. Refunding Miracle dice isn't a worthwhile endeavour. In an MSU army, which you are, preventing morale loss isn't worth losing a potentially actually useful trait. Overwatching on 5+'s is only good if you can also overwatch with the right kind of weapon, otherwise it's also largely pointless.
Warlord: F+. If the warlord uses the miracle dice for herself, refund it. At least you got the miracle die you wasted back, but you don't get the opportunity to use it back.
Stratagem: C. Exploding bolters for one unit is a pass. Maybe if you got as many attacks from that one unit as aggressors... but you don't.
Relic. D. Okay get to hate a little bit on Daemons. It's still not even that strong against them, and is otherwise defunct. A single-faction hate relic's going rate is the Relic of Lost Cadia, this doesn't hold a torch.
All right, we're starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel. There's nothing here worth taking this order for. But we haven't reached the bottom yet, because...
Order of Our Martyred Lady: F
Conviction: F. It's defunct when you're winning, and requires your enemy to politely cooperate with you in order to actually be useful even then. Also, it requires you to bring large squads to even have any hope of getting any use out of, which you probably don't want to be doing too much anyway.
Warlord: D-. Congratulations, you're a Terminator!
Stratagem: D+. A character died, and now your whole army gets the benefit of the most common kind of character in your army who you almost have to have three of anyway. Woo.
Relic: D-. It's not like gun relics are usually best in class, and it's an Inferno Pistol on a foot unit that can't advance and shoot. At least it's S9.
Special Character: C. Rule34!Calgar got one thing going for her, and that's that she has a lieutenant aura which nobody else does. On the downside, you've got to have this Order to get it, so the whole package isn't worthwhile.
If your trait is only worthwhile when you're losing the game, it better actually turn the tide of battle. This doesn't, so it's like picking to not have a trait.
Moving on to the Warlord Traits and Relics:
As a whole, Relics can score more highly for just being passable than Warlord Traits because many relics can be handed out if they're worth a CP for the bearer to carry, but taking any given warlord trait means not having a different one.
Spoiler:
Righteous Rage: A. It's that time of month for Ms. Stabby. It's always that time of month. Give this to your Canoness with the Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment.
Indomitable Belief: A-. Now all your nearby people have a 5++. Warlord traits don't have to go to Canonii, so an Imagifier can have this and stand with the Bloody Rose Repentia [and Celestine] to make them 4++/5+++.
Beacon of Faith: B-. +1 Miracle Dice. Not worth having over the better options, but like, it could be worse.
Inspiring Orator: C-. Run less. It's not like you cared all that much in the first place.
Pure of Faith: F+. You get another 1d6 deny roll to not succeed with.
Executioner of Heretics: F+. Ask the night lords how much stacking -1 leadership works out for them, and then consider that this is on one model and has little to stack with.
Blade of Admonition: A-. Unfortunately went up in cost, but it does to 3 damage. Give it to a Canoness.
Burning Stick of No More Fun: B+. You must take this for Shield of Faith to actually do anything. While it's not guaranteed to work, it actually might now as opposed to always failing.
Bolt Pistol of Many Bullets: D. There aren't many good gun relics, what made you think this one was different.
Litanies of Faith: A-. Re-roll your Miracle dice to make them go farther. Probably worth the CP to have some backfield character hanging out with the Exorcists carry it.
Mantle of Orphelia: C+. You already have a 4++, and it can only go on Canonii. It would be good on a Imagifier, but alas.
Tryptech of Marcharius: D. Woo. a FNP. Not worth a CP Book of Loudness: B-. Wider Auras are nice, though most of the time 6" is wide enough.
Iron Corset of Saint Istalia: B-. Probably the best of the survivability relics. Still probably not worth the CP, since there are other relics you want.
On to Sacred Vows:
Each of these not only locks out having the other ones, but also locks out having the Loyal 32 or Thunderfire Guns or Knight Support or whatever soup of the day you feel like having. They have to be stronger than both each other, and stronger than potential allies, to be worthwhile.
Spoiler:
Hand of the Emperor: B+. Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose can both make good use of this. Probably the best of the lot.
The Passion: B-. Death to the False Everything would be nice for Bloody Rose. However, is it worth not being able to suppress overwatch with Thunderfire Guns or Pounding Barrage? Probably not you're killy enough as is.
Aegis of the Emperor: C+. If you also have the Burning Stick of No More Fun, these two will stack to be really good against some armies. Unfortunately, a great many armies just won't care about your great investment in stopping their fun.
Divine Guidance: D+. Everything either has good AP already and isn't likely to provoke this, or is going to see this as a drop in the bucket.
Light of the Emperor: C-. And We Shall Know No Fear. This is definitely not worth being able to take allies.
Spirit of the Martyr: C+. A 5+ chance to shoot when you die is questionable on the best of day, and definitely not worth not souping.
The long and short is, that none of these are worth not being able to bring other Imperial assets to help out. Even if you're mono, you'll not really be noticing the difference, but you should probably shoot for Aegis if the time calls for it, otherwise Hand.
For stratagems:
Spoiler:
Open the Reliquaries: A+ Now we can have many relics. There are at least 3 relics I have my eye on, and it makes all the relics more useful since the cost and opportunity cost of taking them is reduced.
Prophecy: C+ re-roll wounds of 1 if you have Zephyrim. Okay, maybe, if you have Zerphyrim and can buff them with an Imagifier, this will make them do some work. Maybe.
Furious Recital: F With such a name, I want to like the stratagem, but like doing leadership penalites as single-faction hate isn't really a worthwhile use of time or page space
Blazing Piety: F Weak single-faction hate.
Battle Rites: D- Change your sacred rite. You have to change it with a die roll. In general, when you want to change your rite, you want to change it too something, not away from something.
Moment of Grace: B+. Spend Miracle Dice to add +1 to rolls after making the roll. Decent, and probably better than the miracle dice themselves.
Final Redemption: C-. Repentia do mortals half the time when the die. That's not that good.
Martyr's Immolation: B-. Like many real fanatic sectarian groups, the Sisters of Battle have car bombs. There are good odds you will have an Immolator in your army, and only moderately worse odds that you will find a good time to do D3 mortal wounds to nearby enemy units. Funny and good when it happens, and a neat tool in your pocket, but not something to be building around.
Holy Trinity: B+. Wound support for your meltaguns. Decent, but only because a combi-flamer is much cheaper than a combi-melta [for a squad of 4 meltaguns, it's statistically about the same as arming the sergeant with a combi melta]
More Warlords: A+. There are more than one good warlord trait option in the book, so might as well take 2.
Reanimation: A+. Spend Miracle Dice, and you don't even have to roll to stand back up. Necrons wish they were so cool.
Holy Rage: A. Advance and Charge is good, but watch out for outrunning your support.
Faith and Fury: B-. Basically, your one shot is going to hit and wound. That said, it's one shot.
Martyred: B. Gain CP when your warlord dies. A booby prize for her death, but could be worse. Always use it when she dies if you don't reanimate her, because it's effectively free.
Venerated Saint: C. Imagifier gets 2 abilities. Odds are, the one providing +1S doesn't also need to be providing ignore AP-1.
Suffer not the Witch: C. If you could pick out psykers maybe this would do something. As is, use it to make Tyranids unhappy, otherwise, kind of ignore it.
Storm of Retribution: B-. This one is complicated, but is fundamentally 3 1CP stratagems in 1 2CP stratagem, that don't all take effect together. 2CP for a shooting stratagem should give you a second salvo, the going rate for +1 to hit is 1CP. The other functions are all also 1CP abilities, with the melta function being the closest to a 2CP ability.
Last Rites: B+. Autopass Morale if there's a Hosptialler there. Basically a cheaper but conditional version of the base 2CP one.
Devastating Refrain: B+. Your Exorcist may re-roll outputs, but use it before it fires. Awesome name.
Deadly Descent: C-. It doesn't last until the end of the turn, so it's only for the special salvo they get on arrival. In terms of firepower, it's roughly equivalent to starting them on the board, but they won't be able to get into short melta range in exchange for not being able to be shot off and having a tough charge.
Vessel of His Will: C-. Turn a CP into a Miracle Dice. The only two uses I can see for this are for fueling the resurrection or +1 to a die roll stratagems. CP are generally more useful
Test of Faith: C-. Turn CP into more Miracle Dice, but not on demand.
Proficient: B- Celestians get to re-roll hits and wounds. This doesn't make them good, probably.
Blessed Bolts: A- Okay for Dominions with Storm Bolters, and useful for killing Primaris. Niche, but good when it's in useful.
Purity of Faith: A+. Against most armies, this will break that one power they were counting on more effectively than the burning stick of no more fun and the sacred rite combined.
Judgement of the Faithful: A. Shoot when falling back. Good, especially considering the short range. Works on tanks.
Triggered: B-. Make Arcos killier. Not really super worthwhile, but maybe.
Desperate for Redemption: A. Fight Twice with Repentia or Mortifiers or Pengines. While most 3CP fight twice stratagems let you target any unit [because you wanted to use this on Chainsaw Canoness, right?], you were probably going to hit Repentia with it anyway.
Stratagems are overall good. There is unfortunately none to suppress overwatch, which would have been good for an Exorcist or something and would have made the Sacred Rites more appealing since you wouldn't have to source in Thunderfire Guns or Basilisks to be able to charge Centurions or Aggressors or a lot of things since Repentia are really fragile.
As for unit changes:
Spoiler:
Exorcist: C+. Unfortunately, you're going to have to live with it because it's the only thing that can reach out and touch someone, but going up all those points isn't worth the better launcher in the least.
Zephyrim: C. Maybe you can get something out of them with Bloody Rose. Are Banshees good, though?
Retributors: A-. Whatever weapon you chose, a solid option. Apparently, being angry is the final technological development in weapons stabilization, and I can run and hip-fire a heavy machinegun more accurately than tanks with laser-guided rockets, gyrostabilized gunlaying systems, and/or multispecturm optics as long as I'm very, very cross.
Motifiers: B. A Pentient Engine by another name acts like a Penitent Engine.
Dominions: B+. Not being able to scout transports makes them sad, but they were already made sad by the existence of the Space Marines.
Imagifier: A. These girls are must haves for your army for some subfactions and builds.
Hospitaller: B. The best medic in the game, but medics aren't that great.
Dialogus: C. is changing miracle dice worth a character? Not really.
Triumph of Saint Katherine: D. For a unit that not only shares my name, but proclaims my victory, I want to like this. That said, a T3 Sv3+ character with 18 wounds isn't going to be good in any world, and it's buffs aren't really that good.
All in all, I would grade our codex as a C+ or a B-. It's not good. C's get degrees, but don't get jobs [or degrees in Grad School]; and in line with that I think it'll be okay for ****ing around with low tier casual lists, but not going to get any call backs when it matters[/spoiler].
This was much more in line with my initial impressions. cynical enough, but not overtly.
The true test will be when the errata &/or faq come out.
2019/12/03 05:02:50
Subject: Re:Sisters of battle 8th edition codex review Pt. 1 (Miracle die, sacred rites and EVERY unit)
BrianDavion wrote: I think a B ranked codex is a pretty solid place, One thing I'd like to see in a "design your own minor order" rules set in a future PA book
New marines as the sole inhabitants of the top rank and I don't get the impression that the sisters are going to pull a tau and upset the top spots, so I think a solid 'also ran' tier is in order.
Going to be a while until the new chapter approved points cuts and counter-play to the sisters settle down.
2019/12/03 09:22:42
Subject: Re:Sisters of battle 8th edition codex review Pt. 1 (Miracle die, sacred rites and EVERY unit)
BrianDavion wrote: I think a B ranked codex is a pretty solid place, One thing I'd like to see in a "design your own minor order" rules set in a future PA book
New marines as the sole inhabitants of the top rank and I don't get the impression that the sisters are going to pull a tau and upset the top spots, so I think a solid 'also ran' tier is in order.
Going to be a while until the new chapter approved points cuts and counter-play to the sisters settle down.
I do think it's also worth noting that sisters (well at least valrous heart) have a way to counter some of the better aspects of Marines. people are already reporting that sisters can fight, and win against marines. So even if they're not A tier codex they'll proably have a place in local meta's
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 09:25:05
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/12/03 09:39:51
Subject: Re:Sisters of battle 8th edition codex review Pt. 1 (Miracle die, sacred rites and EVERY unit)
BrianDavion wrote: I think a B ranked codex is a pretty solid place, One thing I'd like to see in a "design your own minor order" rules set in a future PA book
New marines as the sole inhabitants of the top rank and I don't get the impression that the sisters are going to pull a tau and upset the top spots, so I think a solid 'also ran' tier is in order.
Going to be a while until the new chapter approved points cuts and counter-play to the sisters settle down.
I do think it's also worth noting that sisters (well at least valrous heart) have a way to counter some of the better aspects of Marines. people are already reporting that sisters can fight, and win against marines. So even if they're not A tier codex they'll proably have a place in local meta's
As a marine controll mechanism?
Beyond the fact that beeing able to hardcounter something is not particular great design. (Faction wide, not unit type wide, e.g. dedicated AT should deal with tanks just fine, but factions just hardcountering another faction is stupid and a reason why DttfE or the daemon stratagema against GK are just bad.)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/12/03 09:51:05
Subject: Re:Sisters of battle 8th edition codex review Pt. 1 (Miracle die, sacred rites and EVERY unit)
Not Online!!! wrote: Beyond the fact that beeing able to hardcounter something is not particular great design. (Faction wide, not unit type wide, e.g. dedicated AT should deal with tanks just fine, but factions just hardcountering another faction is stupid and a reason why DttfE or the daemon stratagema against GK are just bad.)
Sisters don't hard counter marines.
2019/12/03 10:07:14
Subject: Sisters of battle 8th edition codex review Pt. 1 (Miracle die, sacred rites and EVERY unit)
Sister's don't beat Marines, we have a solid 'dont lose' game reinforced by situational abilities that can potentially make things much harder for certain games that we can change to something genericly-better-then-a-punch-in-the-face before the first turn. As someone here said, we're probably not getting to the top ITC tables, but our opponents probably aren't either.
I'm curious to see how we go, I think the Sisters skill curve got much higher for both players.
BrianDavion wrote: I think a B ranked codex is a pretty solid place, One thing I'd like to see in a "design your own minor order" rules set in a future PA book
New marines as the sole inhabitants of the top rank and I don't get the impression that the sisters are going to pull a tau and upset the top spots, so I think a solid 'also ran' tier is in order.
Going to be a while until the new chapter approved points cuts and counter-play to the sisters settle down.
I do think it's also worth noting that sisters (well at least valrous heart) have a way to counter some of the better aspects of Marines. people are already reporting that sisters can fight, and win against marines. So even if they're not A tier codex they'll proably have a place in local meta's
As a marine controll mechanism?
Beyond the fact that beeing able to hardcounter something is not particular great design. (Faction wide, not unit type wide, e.g. dedicated AT should deal with tanks just fine, but factions just hardcountering another faction is stupid and a reason why DttfE or the daemon stratagema against GK are just bad.)
sisters aren't a marine hard counter, they do however have some useful abilities. the army has a character that can provide a ignore -1 AP aura, (which if you choose the right chapter tactic can go to -2) which can counter tactical doctrine intercessors, they also have a bodyguard unit that's reasonably cheap (10 PPM) that can make sniping out characters harder. It's not going to be eneugh to single handedly win down game but it DOES provide for some counter play
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/03 10:45:17
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/12/03 12:58:55
Subject: Sisters of battle 8th edition codex review Pt. 1 (Miracle die, sacred rites and EVERY unit)
I don't know about "beat marines" - but Valorous Heart is potentially going to mess with the huge amount of AP2 shooting certain Marine lists can put out.
AP2 versus regular Sisters down to a 5+ or 5++ - 7.5 wounds to kill 5.
AP2 versus 3+/6+++ - 18 wounds to kill 5.
Arguably this is very niche - but against those Iron Hands lists with bags of regular AP-1 Heavy Weapons (so AP-2) its a massive boost in defence. Consider say an Invictor shooting, which would normally be very likely wipe a 5 sister squad, and is now is unlikely to kill more than 2 models.
Unfortunately I think VH blobbed up this way is the boring way to play - and there are risks about being outranged etc, - while getting into combat or sprinting across the board is more fun and gives you more options. But if the meta demands it this may be the way to go.
Sacred Rose and Matyred Lady are clearly dependent on circumventing the limit on acts of faith per phase, so you then have to start investing in Simulacrums and I feel with SR, cherubs with the aim of getting a rolling cascade of miracle dice. Which feels kind of weak, as you are investing points to maybe benefit, on certain specific squads that may just get nuked, rather than guaranteeing a benefit for everyone. Its probably better than it seems with actual playing - but losing what you are getting from VH/BR/AS feels like a bad trade.
