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Hello,

I am going to take part in a narrative campaign where we are open to some adjustments to our base codex. There are suggestions for some other armies already (and generally, we are adjusting some basic / core rules). I thought I'd pitch the following, let me know if I'm totally off my racket.

Goal: Fix Klans. Add back in wargear options that should be there. Add 1 possible USR to improve the army. I want to do so without changing points because that can spiral out of control (although a number of Ork units are probably not appropriately costed… see Stompa at 870 points).

Overall thoughts on klans and datasheets: Give orks back their options. Kitbashing is part of the ork game, and it should be continued to be encouraged.
Right now, Blood Axes, Goffs, and Snakebites are pretty weak and almost never taken. Try to change them so you might be tempted to squeeze them in for certain units, and make them more viable.
I’m unsure about Freebootas. Might be fine as is. Rest of the klans are competitive, although Evil Sunz are a bit unfluffy, as you want their bonus on infantry. Removing it on infantry would probably make the kultur almost useless, though, as most fast units don’t need extra speed (they are fast enough to get the job done).

Most datasheet stuff is just adding back existing options. Cybork body is the only thing I’ve made more expensive on Warbosses (maybe it should 15/10/5 for warboss, big mek, mek ?). Mostly there to throw a bone to Ork HQs, which are super squishy.

Less controversial rules

Klans -- Replaces current rules
Snakebites - +1 to wound in CC.
Goffs - +1 attacks on the charge. Characters get +1 attack if they heroically intervene at well.
Blood Axes - Outside of 12”, considered in cover. -1 to hit if in cover as well. Can shoot or charge if they fall back (ambivalent about this)
Freebootas - unsure. Maybe a markerlight system or unchanged.
Rest: unchanged.

Datasheets:
All warbosses and Big Meks, and Meks gain the ability to buy Cybork Body.
Cost: 10 points for Warbosses, 5 points for Big Meks and Meks. Grants 5+ FNP.

Warboss - Can buy 1 kill saw for 15 points, for two kill saws for 23 points.
Warboss in MA - Same as above.
Kommandos - May replace slugga / choppa w/ Shoota for free. For every 5 models in the unit, 1 can carry a Big shoota, Burna, or Rokkit. Nob upgrade is free, and comes with a slugga / choppa. May replace its weapons with Nob weapon list.
Meks - Can take Index options (Kustom Mega Blasta) at current points value.
Nobs - All nobs can take shootas and Kustom Shootas in of their arms (Shootas free, KS 2 points).
Nob w/ Waaaagh banner - May take 1 killsaw for 15 points.
Deffkopta - Give them Kustom Mega Blasta back at current cost.

Controversial rules
Army wide rule: Every non-grot, non-vehicle gets a 6+ FNP. Painboy aura grants a 6+ FNP or +1 FNP in area. Cybork Body grants a 6+ FNP or +1 FNP.

This is a tough one, as again, I want to offer no point changes. As it is now, slogging infantry gets absolutely slaughtered and makes it hard to get into combat. Transports are largely a no-go. It leads to Ork lists which basically prioritze shooting, or cheating their units in with stratagems / psychic powers.
This might improve the power of infantry enough so they make it under the support of a painboy and KFF (which will slow down their advance *and* adds a tax). At best, slogging infantry will have a 5++, 5+++, which is a 55% chance of shrugging off wounds. Probably manageable. Outside of auras, Boyz have a 6+, 6+++ which isn’t particularly difficult to deal with.

This also helps make our HQs tougher to deal with, as they can buy into a 5++ FNP, and if supported, get a 4+++. If you wanna park a painboy to protect your meks, go nuts. In CC, it'll be hard to keep the painboy in range, or you can just kill it.

tulun wrote:


Klans -- Replaces current rules
Snakebites - +1 to wound in CC.
Goffs - +1 attacks on the charge. Characters get +1 attack if they heroically intervene at well.
Blood Axes - Outside of 12”, considered in cover. -1 to hit if in cover as well. Can shoot or charge if they fall back (ambivalent about this)
Freebootas - unsure. Maybe a markerlight system or unchanged.
Rest: unchanged.

Always-on Red Thirst for Snake Bites feels like it would probably end up being too good. There's a reason the buffs for horde armies tend not to be as good as for elite armies; those same bonuses on a cheaper platform are a lot stronger. Goffs is definitely a buff, but fine. Same with Blood Axes (you can't reliably hide a green tide in terrain; otherwise it might be too good). Don't give Freebootas markerlights. Ork shooting already takes a long time to resolve, and that's without rolling for markerlight style guns before the rest of their shooting.

Datasheets:
All warbosses and Big Meks, and Meks gain the ability to buy Cybork Body.
Cost: 10 points for Warbosses, 5 points for Big Meks and Meks. Grants 5+ FNP.

Warboss - Can buy 1 kill saw for 15 points, for two kill saws for 23 points.
Warboss in MA - Same as above.
Kommandos - May replace slugga / choppa w/ Shoota for free. For every 5 models in the unit, 1 can carry a Big shoota, Burna, or Rokkit. Nob upgrade is free, and comes with a slugga / choppa. May replace its weapons with Nob weapon list.
Meks - Can take Index options (Kustom Mega Blasta) at current points value.
Nobs - All nobs can take shootas and Kustom Shootas in of their arms (Shootas free, KS 2 points).
Nob w/ Waaaagh banner - May take 1 killsaw for 15 points.
Deffkopta - Give them Kustom Mega Blasta back at current cost.

That all seems fine, but I worry about how the FNP stacking ends up looking (see below).

Controversial rules
Army wide rule: Every non-grot, non-vehicle gets a 6+ FNP. Painboy aura grants a 6+ FNP or +1 FNP in area. Cybork Body grants a 6+ FNP or +1 FNP.

This is a tough one, as again, I want to offer no point changes. As it is now, slogging infantry gets absolutely slaughtered and makes it hard to get into combat. Transports are largely a no-go. It leads to Ork lists which basically prioritze shooting, or cheating their units in with stratagems / psychic powers.
This might improve the power of infantry enough so they make it under the support of a painboy and KFF (which will slow down their advance *and* adds a tax). At best, slogging infantry will have a 5++, 5+++, which is a 55% chance of shrugging off wounds. Probably manageable. Outside of auras, Boyz have a 6+, 6+++ which isn’t particularly difficult to deal with.

This also helps make our HQs tougher to deal with, as they can buy into a 5++ FNP, and if supported, get a 4+++. If you wanna park a painboy to protect your meks, go nuts. In CC, it'll be hard to keep the painboy in range, or you can just kill it.

I've discussed similar suggestions with our local ork player. A few concerns:
* 4+ FNP (base 6+ plus cybork body plus pain boy) seems like it might be a bit much. You're literally halving the amount of damage your smashy characters take.
* 6+ armor (or 5+ invul save) boyz with 5+ FNP makes them nearly as durable as plague bearers while also being much more killy.
* Adding that much FNP to an already slow-to-play army is going to slow your games down even more.


The tricky thing about trying to make melee hordes viable by buffing their raw durability is the question, "Viable against what?" If footslogging orks are tough enough to survive the trip across the table when facing off against a relatively optimized tau list, then there's a good chance they're too durable against a less optimized necron list. It quickly becomes a stat check. "Did you bring enough anti-infantry weapons to kill through my boyz? No? Did you bring enough snipers to kill my pain boyz and/or meks on on turn 1? No? Then I win."

Which is rough because I acknowledge footslogging orks are in a rough spot right now.

I think that 6+++ for all ork infantry (but gretchin) is alright. It is the painboy that needs attention. I'd change painboy to always give himself a 5+++ and provide +1 to FnP to one unit within 3". Probably a price increase wouldn't be a bad idea.

Goffs would be an interesting choice if they had AP-1 on charge or heroic intervention. Orks roll enough of dice already.

Snakebites having +1 on to wound is too powerful on horde units. How about giving them ability like orcs from AoS, where they move towards enemy whenever they suffer damage? Would be pretty unique and show their savage nature.

Blood Axes -1 to hit and stackable FNP could result in boy mobs being too resilent.

Power Klaws need to drop -1 to hit or be a flat 3 damage with their current price.

It'd be neat if units from Trukks could disembark and assault after trukk has moved, but with 1/6 chance of a mortal wound per disembarking model.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Always-on Red Thirst for Snake Bites feels like it would probably end up being too good. There's a reason the buffs for horde armies tend not to be as good as for elite armies; those same bonuses on a cheaper platform are a lot stronger. Goffs is definitely a buff, but fine. Same with Blood Axes (you can't reliably hide a green tide in terrain; otherwise it might be too good). Don't give Freebootas markerlights. Ork shooting already takes a long time to resolve, and that's without rolling for markerlight style guns before the rest of their shooting.

Yup fair points. I was just wondering if Freebootas might fall off a bit, but they are generally okay now.
I know Snakebites are about poison and stuff, it could just be something as simple like they have an extra CCW that's poison (so you can use that profile for your base attacks). Orks in CC are also kind of in a rough state right now -- this edition is all about shooting, and t-shirt saves make it hard to get close. We basically have to cheat ourselves in, and that can be played around. Snakebites can't take as much advantage the da Jump / tellyporta like Evil Suns can. The charge rate drops to something like 55% without the +1 bonus.

Possibly just on the charge for +1 to wound?
Really, the question is, how can we buff them so they are worthy of taking a detachment with something.

I've discussed similar suggestions with our local ork player. A few concerns:
* 4+ FNP (base 6+ plus cybork body plus pain boy) seems like it might be a bit much. You're literally halving the amount of damage your smashy characters take.
* 6+ armor (or 5+ invul save) boyz with 5+ FNP makes them nearly as durable as plague bearers while also being much more killy.
* Adding that much FNP to an already slow-to-play army is going to slow your games down even more.


The tricky thing about trying to make melee hordes viable by buffing their raw durability is the question, "Viable against what?" If footslogging orks are tough enough to survive the trip across the table when facing off against a relatively optimized tau list, then there's a good chance they're too durable against a less optimized necron list. It quickly becomes a stat check. "Did you bring enough anti-infantry weapons to kill through my boyz? No? Did you bring enough snipers to kill my pain boyz and/or meks on on turn 1? No? Then I win."

Which is rough because I acknowledge footslogging orks are in a rough spot right now.

It could cap at 5++, which is totally fine. I think the setup for a warboss + painboy is a bit awkward it probably doesn't matter too much either way, it won't happen too often.
TBH, warbosses are in such a crap state right now, making them take half damage might make them viable. They really only get scary if you buff them with psychic powers (Warpath or Fists of Gork), and then they are typically suicided bombed into a unit where you have them fight twice. Compare this to some HQs across the isle, it's a bit sad.

Re slogging boys:
Yeah, it's a tough balancing act. You can already do something like this right now, to be honest. 5++ and 6+++ FNP is totally possible, and it's not really done. This translates to about a 45% save rate -- the bump to a 5+++ would bump this to a 55% save rate. I'm curious if this would be too much. the 45% save rate is apparently not enough to flood. It's also partially because Nobs w/ PK just aren't pulling the same weight they used to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JawRippa wrote:
I think that 6+++ for all ork infantry (but gretchin) is alright. It is the painboy that needs attention. I'd change painboy to always give himself a 5+++ and provide +1 to FnP to one unit within 3". Probably a price increase wouldn't be a bad idea.

Goffs would be an interesting choice if they had AP-1 on charge or heroic intervention. Orks roll enough of dice already.

Snakebites having +1 on to wound is too powerful on horde units. How about giving them ability like orcs from AoS, where they move towards enemy whenever they suffer damage? Would be pretty unique and show their savage nature.

Blood Axes -1 to hit and stackable FNP could result in boy mobs being too resilent.

Power Klaws need to drop -1 to hit or be a flat 3 damage with their current price.

It'd be neat if units from Trukks could disembark and assault after trukk has moved, but with 1/6 chance of a mortal wound per disembarking model.

Painboy targeting his aura might be ok, but tbh, there's way more loads better auras than this that seem to get through okay. See: Chapter master. I think it's probably worth of a test through. It does require to bubble up, and painboys are really not hard to deal with if you can isolate them.

Goffs getting -1 AP is decisively more powerful than 1 attack, I agree. It would change their boys to being a better all rounder -- Maybe it's fine because it's hard to get them into CC anyway.

Good point on blood axes. That interaction might actually be too good (invul save, fnp, and -1 to hit on an 8 point boy).

I think if I were to do anything to PKs, it would be one or the other -- although you'd have to change kill saws too. The question is, should a PK be a thunder hammer or a power fist? I sort of think the Kill saw should be our Thunder Hammer, but as its costed, it's in a bit of a weird place.

I think your snakebites thing would probably just lead them to being daisy chained into being counter charged -- it would be ultra annoying for certain armies I guess, but I think would probably make them even worse against others. Imagine deep striking and doing a pistol wound so they move closer to you for an easy charge.

Regarding Snake Bitez, what about giving them the drukhari Test of Skill obsession? Basically, you get +1 to wound, but only against models with 10+ wounds. You could make it melee only if you're worried shooty lists benefitting from what are supposed to be low tech ork rules.

It would make it easier for infantry to clobber vehicles without making them stronger against every other unit in the game at the same time. Maybe it's too redundant with their strat though?

tulun wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

I think if I were to do anything to PKs, it would be one or the other -- although you'd have to change kill saws too. The question is, should a PK be a thunder hammer or a power fist? I sort of think the Kill saw should be our Thunder Hammer, but as its costed, it's in a bit of a weird place.

TBH it'd be great if klaws were be flat damage 3 and priced accordingly (maybe current price wouldn't be fair). It'd make trukk boys slightly more viable due to dangerous melee weapon in there.