Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With Warhammer Legends being official now and seeing some good staples bite the dust, it makes me think of all the old SC's that have been lost to the editions of time (looking at you Dark Eldar, IG and Orks). If you were to rewrite some of the old classics with 8th rules, what would they look like to you? Feel free to add any you would like to see in your rendition of their appearance in 8th ed!

Nazdreg Ug Urdgrub - 170

Only one model of this can be included in your army.

Wargear: Kustom Blast X, Power Klaw and Kustom Power Field

M:4" WS2+ BS3+ S6 T5 W7 A5 Ld9 2+Sv

Faction Keywords: Ork, Bad Moonz
Keywords: Character, Infantry, Mega Armour, Warboss

Warlord Trait: Da Best Armour Teef Can Buy

Wargear:

Kustom Blast-X: Range: 24" S:8 AP: -3 D: D6 Assault D3. When you roll a shooting attack for the bearer, if you roll one or more unmodified rolls of 1 to hit, the bearer takes a mortal wound.

Kustom Power Field: Nazdreg has a 5+ invulnerable save.

Abilities:
'Ere We Go!
Breakin' Eads
WAAAGH!
Dakka Dakka Dakka!
Mob Rule

Ded Kunnin': At the start of the game, you gain an additional D3 Command Points

Beam me Up Grotty!: Once per battle, at the end of any of your Movement phases, Nazdreg can use this ability. When he does, Nazdreg and one friendly Bad Moon INFANTRY unit within 3" of Nazdreg are removed from the battlefield. Then, set up Nazdreg (and the second unit you chose, if any) anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models (the second unit must be set up wholly within 6" of the bearer).

Old Zogwort - 110 points

Only one of this model can be in your army.

Wargear: Viper's Nest, Weirdboy Staff

M5" WS2+ BS7+ S5 T5 W5 A4 Ld8 6+Sv

Faction Keywords: Ork, Snakebitez
Keywords: Infantry, Psyker, Weirdboy, Character

Warlord Trait: Surly as a Squiggoth

Wargear:

Viper's Nest: Range: Melee S:User AP:-1 D:1. When you make attacks with Old Zogwort, you can make an additional D6 attacks with this profile. When rolling to wound with these attacks, they always wound on a 4+, unless the target has the TITANIC or VEHICLE keyword.

Abilities:

Waaagh! Energy
Mob Rule
'Ere We Go!
Dakka Dakka Dakka!

WAAAGH! Field: Old Zogwort has a 5+ invulnerable save.

Tougher than Old Boots: This model ignores wounds on a 5 or 6 rather than just a 6 when rolling to see if you ignore wounds from The Old Ways Snakebite Kultur.

Psyker: This model can attempt to manifest two psychic powers in each friendly Psychic phase, and attempt to deny two psychic powers in each enemy Psychic phase. It knows the Smite psychic power and two psychic powers from the Power of the Waaagh! discipline. In addition to these powers, Old Zogwort knows the Zogwort's Curse psychic power.

Zogwort's Curse: Zogwort's Curse has a warp charge value of 8. If it is manifested, select a visible enemy INFANTRY, BIKER or CAVALRY unit within 18". You and your opponent roll a D6. Add one to your dice roll if the enemy unit you chose to target has the CHARACTER keyword. If you roll higher, then you may choose a model from that enemy unit and replace it with an angry squig model with the profile below that is under the control of the opponent. This does not cost reinforcement points and the model does not count as slain if it was the Warlord, it still requires to be directly killed as a Squig for you to score that or any other objective that involves slaying the Warlord (though it loses any relics, auras and other data sheet specific abilities).

Squig:

WS3+ BS7+ S3 T2 W1 A2 Ld4 Sv7+

Faction Keywords: Ork

Keyword: Infantry, Squig, Character

Wazdakka Gutsmek - 145

Only one of this model can be in your army.

Wargear: Power Klaw, Slugga, Bike of the Aporkalypse, Kustom Mega-Blasta, Stikkbombs. The Bike of the Aporkalypse is equipped with two dakkakannons.

M16" WS2+ BS5+ S5 T6 W7 A4 Ld8 Sv3+

Faction Keywords: Ork, Evil Sunz
Keywords: Biker, Character, Big Mek, Speed Freek, Warboss

Warlord Trait: Speed Freek

Wargear:

Dakkakannon: Range: 24" S:8 AP:-2 D:2 Assault 4.

Abilities:

SpeedWAAAGH!
Breakin' Eads
Mob Rule!
'Ere We Go!
Dakka Dakka Dakka!

Big Mekaniak: At the end of your Movement phase, this model can repair a single friendly Evil SUnz VEHICLE model within 3". That model regains D3 lost wounds. A
model can only be repaired once per turn.

Full Throttle: After any friendly Evil Sunz Biker units within 9" of Wazdakka makes a successful charge roll, it can shoot again with any of its shooting weapons it is armed with. This out of sequence shooting attack happens before the movement from charging occurs and any subsequent pile-ins.

Bike of the Aporkalypse: Once per game, Wazdakka may decide to "hit the nitro" at the beginning of the movement phase. If he does so, he gains the FLY keyword for the rest of the turn.

And for my non Ork related character:

Lord Solar Macharius - 100 points

Only one model of this can be in your army.

Wargear: The Blade of Conquest, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades

M6" WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W6 A4 Ld10 Sv4+

Faction Keywords: Astra Militarum, Imperium
Keywords: Infantry, Character, Officer

Wargear:

The Blade of Conquest: Range: Melee S:+2 AP:-3 D: D3

Abilities:

Voice of Command

High Command: Even though Lord Solar Macharius does not have a <Regiment> keyword, he does not prevent his detachment's Astra Militarum Regiment from benefiting from their Regimental Doctrines, though Lord Solar Macharius himself can never benefit from them. Furthermore, Lord Solar Macharius may issue orders to any Astra Militarum INFANTRY or CAVALRY unit (excluding Militarum Auxilia) even if he does not share the same REGIMENT keyword as them.

Commanding Presence: Friendly Astra Militarum units within 12" of this model may use Lord Solar's Macharius Leadership characterstic instead of their own.

Savant of War: Lord Solar Macharius starts with two, rather than one Warlord trait, from the generic Warlord Trait table of your choice that is available to Astra Militarum characters. You may only choose each Warlord trait once across any number of characters you have.

Rod of the Donians: Lord Solar Macharius may issue up to 3 orders instead of one.

Favour of the Emperor: Lord Solar Macharius has a 4+ invulnerable save.

What do you guys think? Do you feel like they made the transition over to the new edition fairly well? Feel free to share what guys you want to bring back in 8th ed!

Double post, ignore

Nazdreg feels unusually accurate for an Ork. I could understand BS 4+, but BS 3+ feels like it's pushing it. Is there a lore reason for him to shoot as good as a Space Marine?

Zogwort should have a BS. Just give him the usual 5+, even if he has no shooting attacks base. Same for the Squig.
Also, is there a reason he doesn't have the usual Weirdboy +1 to cast per 10 Ork models?
Also also, Zogwort's Curse is... Absolutely insane. It's, without any rerolls or bonuses to cast, a greater than 1/3 chance of turning any character within 18" into a useless Squig. That includes anything from piddly Company Commanders to the G-Man, to Imperial Flipping Knights.

Wazdakka's Full Throttle feels really powerful. But then again, it's buffing Ork Bikers, who aren't in a good place right now, so maybe it's okay?

The Lord Solar needs a rule allowing him to issue orders to friendly models-currently he cannot, as he lacks a Regiment keyword.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Nazdreg feels unusually accurate for an Ork. I could understand BS 4+, but BS 3+ feels like it's pushing it. Is there a lore reason for him to shoot as good as a Space Marine?

Zogwort should have a BS. Just give him the usual 5+, even if he has no shooting attacks base. Same for the Squig.
Also, is there a reason he doesn't have the usual Weirdboy +1 to cast per 10 Ork models?
Also also, Zogwort's Curse is... Absolutely insane. It's, without any rerolls or bonuses to cast, a greater than 1/3 chance of turning any character within 18" into a useless Squig. That includes anything from piddly Company Commanders to the G-Man, to Imperial Flipping Knights.

Wazdakka's Full Throttle feels really powerful. But then again, it's buffing Ork Bikers, who aren't in a good place right now, so maybe it's okay?

The Lord Solar needs a rule allowing him to issue orders to friendly models-currently he cannot, as he lacks a Regiment keyword.

Nazdreg used to have a profile waaaaay back in 3rd edition and he more or less was the only ork who had BS4 (3+ in 8th ed terms), he actually was known for his surprisingly good aim and cunning as far as being innovative and planning goes, as he helped perfect tellyporta technology with Ghazzy and he can speak both low and high gothic fairly fluently.

Zogwort has no BS because his old profile back in 4th/5th ed he had BS0, mainly because he was blind since he shot green beams out of his eyes that turned enemies into squigs. Also, functionally, it makes no difference since he has no ranged weapons anyways.

The full throttle rule is my attempt to somewhat ape what pistoliers get as a rule in AoS after seeing their performance, its actually pretty balanced given that the bikers have to bubble around Wazdakka and furthermore given dakkagun range is 18" it means you generally are only able to shoot once a game with most biker units anyways before they're either shot to death or tied up in CC, so I wanted to give them a way to do more damage and eliminate screens.

Good catch with Macharius, I'll change that. Thanks!

Okay. Nazdreg cool.

I'd give them a BS anyway-even 7+ would work. Just to avoid any wonky rules interactions. But you really, REALLY need to address that special power of Zogwort's.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. Nazdreg cool.

I'd give them a BS anyway-even 7+ would work. Just to avoid any wonky rules interactions. But you really, REALLY need to address that special power of Zogwort's.

It's actually not that strong to be honest, I more or less copied the original rule verbatim from it's wording back in 4th ed. I made it so you can still eliminate high value targets like obliterators or centurions, rather than strictly taegetting characters. More importantly, it's pretty hard for Zogwort to get to his ide target even with the jump thanks to screening and if he succeeds he is more or less guaranteed to die the next turn. If you transport him he, likely cant do it until T3, T2 at the earliest if you're lucky. Though to be fair, turning someone into a squig counting as Slay the Warlord is probably still too strong, so I'll change that. Also, the fact that it also kultur locks you to one of the weakest Klan traits is another downside.

Yeah, Nazdreg used to be BS4 like SM back in 3rd edition but not strong at all. Only T4, slow as hell, no invuln and quite expensive. Relegated to 2000+ points games, which were way above the standard format (1500) back then.

I like your Nazdreg's profile, I'd just give him S5 as he's not as strong as Ghaz. The KFF is also out of place IMHO.

Wazzdakka sounds about right.

Also Zog is cool, maybe a bit undercosted (I'd make him 120 points, he definitely worths 2 weirdboyz) and his unique psychic power was the only thing he had in previous editions that made him different from a regular ork psyker. I'd limit his curse to infantry, biker and cavalry models though, no vehicle characters and I think it should be a warp charge value of 8.

Very cool work anyway, I played all those ork characters in older editions of 40k and I'd really like to see them again on the tables.

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, Nazdreg used to be BS4 like SM back in 3rd edition but not strong at all. Only T4, slow as hell, no invuln and quite expensive. Relegated to 2000+ points games, which were way above the standard format (1500) back then.

I like your Nazdreg's profile, I'd just give him S5 as he's not as strong as Ghaz. The KFF is also out of place IMHO.

Wazzdakka sounds about right.

Also Zog is cool, maybe a bit undercosted (I'd make him 120 points, he definitely worths 2 weirdboyz) and his unique psychic power was the only thing he had in previous editions that made him different from a regular ork psyker. I'd limit his curse to infantry, biker and cavalry models though, no vehicle characters and I think it should be a warp charge value of 8.

Very cool work anyway, I played all those ork characters in older editions of 40k and I'd really like to see them again on the tables.

Good point, regarding Zogwort's curse, I completely forgot that you could have Knight characters (we don't see them at all in my local meta), so I'll definitely change that. Nazdreg I think deserves to be S6 given he is a Warboss and he probably got bigger since he partnership with Ghaz. The Kustom Power Field is just so he has a built in invuln without having to rely on a WL trait if you decide to make someone else the Warlord, and it actually isn't a KFF if you read the rules closely.

 Grimskul wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. Nazdreg cool.

I'd give them a BS anyway-even 7+ would work. Just to avoid any wonky rules interactions. But you really, REALLY need to address that special power of Zogwort's.

It's actually not that strong to be honest, I more or less copied the original rule verbatim from it's wording back in 4th ed. I made it so you can still eliminate high value targets like obliterators or centurions, rather than strictly taegetting characters. More importantly, it's pretty hard for Zogwort to get to his ide target even with the jump thanks to screening and if he succeeds he is more or less guaranteed to die the next turn. If you transport him he, likely cant do it until T3, T2 at the earliest if you're lucky. Though to be fair, turning someone into a squig counting as Slay the Warlord is probably still too strong, so I'll change that. Also, the fact that it also kultur locks you to one of the weakest Klan traits is another downside.

It certainly is that powerful. A 50/50 shot at effectively killing basically any character was and is very strong. In the past, it was a lot harder to pull off because of how the psychic rules worked. (And you didn't get a +1 against characters.) Keep in mind that there are a lot of equivalent powers that deal only d3 mortal wounds on a succesful roll-off.

Also, killing a T2 1W 7+ model with no character protection... Look, if you can't manage that, you've lost, Zogwort or no.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. Nazdreg cool.

I'd give them a BS anyway-even 7+ would work. Just to avoid any wonky rules interactions. But you really, REALLY need to address that special power of Zogwort's.

It's actually not that strong to be honest, I more or less copied the original rule verbatim from it's wording back in 4th ed. I made it so you can still eliminate high value targets like obliterators or centurions, rather than strictly taegetting characters. More importantly, it's pretty hard for Zogwort to get to his ide target even with the jump thanks to screening and if he succeeds he is more or less guaranteed to die the next turn. If you transport him he, likely cant do it until T3, T2 at the earliest if you're lucky. Though to be fair, turning someone into a squig counting as Slay the Warlord is probably still too strong, so I'll change that. Also, the fact that it also kultur locks you to one of the weakest Klan traits is another downside.

It certainly is that powerful. A 50/50 shot at effectively killing basically any character was and is very strong. In the past, it was a lot harder to pull off because of how the psychic rules worked. (And you didn't get a +1 against characters.) Keep in mind that there are a lot of equivalent powers that deal only d3 mortal wounds on a succesful roll-off.

I have altered it already given the feedback, but I still think that its not that strong given the limitations on the spell's range and Zogwort needing further additional investment in points to actually pull it off. On a difficulty of 8, its below average for it to be guaranteed, since to be close enough to an enemy character that isn't dumb enough to charge straight into Zogwort requires you to either a) put him in a transport b) use da Jump or a 2CP stratagem on him. For the latter two options, you will basically not get any bonuses from WAAAGH! energy to get the higher likelihood of the spell going off. Furthermore, enemy psychic defense is still a common thing, and in the case he pulled it off, its more or less a trade off as I mentioned before as he will NOT be surviving the counter attack. I find it more or less a spell that 'Eadbanger should have been closer to as that is also a psychic power that bypasses saves and can outright slay the target, but the likelihood is so low there's no point in attempting such an unlikely and risky move for a more consistent spell.

I mean, he's tougher than a Herald of Nurgle. (Except Epidemius.) Same Toughness, same invuln, same FNP, one more wound.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, killing a T2 1W 7+ model with no character protection... Look, if you can't manage that, you've lost, Zogwort or no.

That was an oversight on my part. Forgot to add the character keyword to the squig profile, thanks for bringing that up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I mean, he's tougher than a Herald of Nurgle. (Except Epidemius.) Same Toughness, same invuln, same FNP, one more wound.

I mean as a special character, is that too much to ask? Orks already get the short end of the stick for HQ survivability in the vast majority of its HQ roster. You can't spam him and it's not like Heralds of Nurgle are the scariest things around as far as durability goes, especially compared to the more egregious HQ's like Smash Captains and Daemon Princes. If he had a lot of baseline mobility I could see your concern, but given the limitations of him being in only at one place at a time and having to pay significantly to get to his target? I think that's a fair trade. And again, you're forgetting that you have to lock out an entire detachment into Snakebitez if you really want to exploit his rules, even if you fill it with grots and another Weirdboy, that's a 152 point tax to go with taking him, without considering either transport costs, CP cost for tellyporta or the considerations of only Da Jumping himself into enemy lines T1 or T2 with no nearby source of boyz to give that crucial boost to pass the psychic test.

 Grimskul wrote:

I have altered it already given the feedback, but I still think that its not that strong given the limitations on the spell's range and Zogwort needing further additional investment in points to actually pull it off. On a difficulty of 8, its below average for it to be guaranteed, since to be close enough to an enemy character that isn't dumb enough to charge straight into Zogwort requires you to either a) put him in a transport b) use da Jump or a 2CP stratagem on him. For the latter two options, you will basically not get any bonuses from WAAAGH! energy to get the higher likelihood of the spell going off. Furthermore, enemy psychic defense is still a common thing, and in the case he pulled it off, its more or less a trade off as I mentioned before as he will NOT be surviving the counter attack. I find it more or less a spell that 'Eadbanger should have been closer to as that is also a psychic power that bypasses saves and can outright slay the target, but the likelihood is so low there's no point in attempting such an unlikely and risky move for a more consistent spell.

I'd also point out that instant death effects like this were a lot more common in 4th and 5th edition, when this rule was conceived.
You're also grossly overestimating how difficult it is for Orks to cast a WC8 power, and seem to not realize just how far an 18" range will get you. Most armies are not going to be able to bury all of their valuable characters behind 18" of chaff, most Ork armies already want to have their boys as far forward as possible, and because of the nature of how Waaagh! energy works, denying Ork powers is a lot more difficult than denying equivalent powers from other armies.

The only abilities likely to actually cancel out Ork powers consistently are the 4+ "Turn off a power" stratagems, in which case you're making your opponent spend one or two command points for a possibility (but not a guarantee) of denying the power.

Also consider that this power, unlike every other, denies nearly every existing mechanic for mitigating damage. You can't recover the wounds, you can't have specialized psychic-mortal-wound defense, you can't hide behind screens unless you have a ridiculously model-heavy horde army and all your characters can function miles away from the front lines. (And even then, it's still not that hard to get Zogwort in.) Shutting down psychic powers is the only way to prevent this.

Here's a better version:
WC6
If it is manifested, select a visible enemy INFANTRY, BIKER, or CAVALRY model within 18". You and your opponent roll a d6, adding 1 to the result if the target is a Character.
If you roll equal, the enemy model suffers a Mortal Wound. If you roll higher, the enemy model suffers d3 mortal wounds and, if any models are killed as a result of this power, you may place an Angry Squig model with the profile below that is under your control, at the closest point while remaining more than 1" away from enemy models. This does not cost reinforcement points.
(Use the same profile you posted.)

So, instead of being OP, it becomes a Smite variant with an extra spawn effect.

Waaghpower hit every point I was about to, and I think his version of the curse is pretty reasonable. If you wanted to emphasize the transmutative nature of the power, you could maybe make it a flat 1 mortal wound and throw on a dark angels style debuff that has a chance of sticking around (it's hard to shoot a bolter when your hand suddenly isn't shaped right), but that would be more complicated and book keepy.

Waaaghpower wrote:


Here's a better version:
WC6
If it is manifested, select a visible enemy INFANTRY, BIKER, or CAVALRY model within 18". You and your opponent roll a d6, adding 1 to the result if the target is a Character.
If you roll equal, the enemy model suffers a Mortal Wound. If you roll higher, the enemy model suffers d3 mortal wounds and, if any models are killed as a result of this power, you may place an Angry Squig model with the profile below that is under your control, at the closest point while remaining more than 1" away from enemy models. This does not cost reinforcement points.
(Use the same profile you posted.)

So, instead of being OP, it becomes a Smite variant with an extra spawn effect.

No, it would completely kill his legendary ability. Make zog more expensive, lower the 18'' range, make that power harder to cast if it sounds overpowered but in essence he should be able to turn a character into a squig, even a powerful one with at full health, that's his thing.

 Blackie wrote:

No, it would completely kill his legendary ability. Make zog more expensive, lower the 18'' range, make that power harder to cast if it sounds overpowered but in essence he should be able to turn a character into a squig, even a powerful one with at full health, that's his thing.

It's pretty tough to set a non-problematic price and warp charge value for something like this though. You're talking about an ability that can (basically) one-shot Guilliman regardless of his wounds, saves, and intervening models. Heck, I think it technically even bypasses his resurrection mechanic as it's currently worded. Plus, it's a psychic power on a model that can get a pretty significant boost to its psychic tests just by standing around a bunch of very cheap and relatively easy to deepstrike models. (Orks have more access to deepstriking than a lot of armies).

So if you try to balance it by upping its warp charge, just how high do you have to set it? Even if you're going after something less durable than a Guilliman like a captain on a bike (6 wounds iirc), you're basically replicating the offense of 3 average smites while also bypassing the need to make your target the closest model. And that's a powerful enough gimmick that you'd probably want to build a list around it. So let's assume you make sure you have a way to reliably deepstrike at least 30 boyz to give Zog a +3 to the psychic test (easy to do with storm boyz, strats, or a second psyker). You'll roll a 7 on 2d6 more than half the time (before command point rerolls) meaning you'd succeed on a WC 10 power more than half the time. So do you make the curse WC 11? 12? More?

And if you try to balance it out by upping Zog's cost, you have to find that perfect Goldylock's zone where he's not so cheap he's an auto take but not so expensive he's a never take. But again, he has a reliably method of removing your opponent's most powerful character from the game (maybe several characters if you really support the gimmick with a second wave of deepstrikers).

So what WC and points cost do you give a guy like that? How many points should it cost to have a better than 50% chance to neutralize Guilliman without retaliation?

On the other hand, if you just make the curse a variation on smite and have the Squig transformation be a cute post-death bonus, then the power is instantly much more in line with all the other mortal wound generating psychic powers in the game.

I would give Wazdakka the "Warp Highway" Rule, which would allow him and up to 3 units of SPEED FREEKS to deep-strike. That was always his aim, to open a highway through the warp and ride his WAAAGH! through from one world to the next. It would seem fitting that his reappearance would coincide with success (just in time to see that everyone and their dog can to it too nowadays!).

 some bloke wrote:
I would give Wazdakka the "Warp Highway" Rule, which would allow him and up to 3 units of SPEED FREEKS to deep-strike. That was always his aim, to open a highway through the warp and ride his WAAAGH! through from one world to the next. It would seem fitting that his reappearance would coincide with success (just in time to see that everyone and their dog can to it too nowadays!).

I really like the idea and how it matches his fluff, however, I feel like this would be better suited to a specialist detachment stratagem that is tied to Wazdakka's WAAAGH!, just because giving the equivalent of 8 free CP to deep strike Speed Freek units is very strong. So maybe something that costs 3 CP that can only be used once per game, is pre deployment to hold up to 2 Speed Freek units in reserve.You must deploy them on the board within 6" of a friendly ORK unit and must be more than 9" away from enemy units. This makes it so it looks like the Speed Freek unit is using the highway to catch up/intercept Orks on the ground and beat them to the chase of getting stuck in. It also makes it so its not a carbon copy of the normal tellyporta stratagem and that you have to be aggressive with your Ork units to take advantage of it.

Also, thanks for the feedback regarding Zogwort's Curse. While I can see the appeal of making it depowered, I feel like to balance out the transformation, I would prefer having a mechanic where it can can be reversed rather than making it permanent.

So the revised version would be:

Zogwort's Curse: Zogwort's Curse has a warp charge value of 8. If it is manifested, select a visible enemy INFANTRY, BIKER or CAVALRY unit within 18". You and your opponent roll a D6. Add one to your dice roll if the enemy unit you chose to target has the CHARACTER keyword. If you roll higher, then you may choose a model from that enemy unit and replace it with an angry squig model with the profile below that is under the control of the opponent. This does not cost reinforcement points and the model does not count as slain if it was the Warlord, it still requires to be directly killed as a Squig for you to score that or any other objective that involves slaying the Warlord (though it loses any relics, auras and other data sheet specific abilities). Furthermore, an enemy character that has been transformed into a squig may attempt to resist Zogwort's Curse at the start of each of your opponent's psychic phases. Your opponent must roll 2D6, if it is higher than their leadership characteristic, the model remains a Squig. If it is under its current leadership characteristic, it reverts back to its original profile prior to being affected by Zogwort's Curse, including any relics or equipment it had previously (weapons/abilities that are one-use only and were already used prior to the transformation do not get refreshed when this occurs). Any wounds suffered as a squig or prior to their transformation transfers over to their reverted profile.

Squig:

WS3+ BS7+ S3 T3 W3 A2 Ld7 Sv7+

Faction Keywords: Ork

Keyword: Infantry, Squig, Character

Also, as much as I like feedback on my guys, the intention of the thread is for you guys to make old classics in 8th ed as well. So guys like Al'Rahem, Duke Sliscus, even Vect if you wanted to. So feel free to go wild with your own creations!

I prefer the idea of Zogworts Curse being permanent, but I also feel it needs an element of downside to it.

I would say that if Zogwort rolls a perils when casting this, in addition to the normal effects, your opponent picks an infantry model from your army to be cursed. So he might squiggify Ghazkull, if you roll badly. Combining this with the +1 for every 10 orks in range, and the way that they still perils if they roll too high, means that it's a bit of a gamble to use zogworts curse.

I'd like to see old characters revived as new archetypes.

Heroic commissar- doesn't execute- grants further morale and effectiveness bonuses. Can take regimental doctrines etc

Trusted aide- warns/protects from harm by cancelling wounds/mortal wounds. Can take morale buff items or weapons

Lord Solar/Warmaster - personally armoured and armed like a marine captain or better, variety of strategic buffs, upgrades normal guard/scions units to elite bodyguard units.

 some bloke wrote:
I prefer the idea of Zogworts Curse being permanent, but I also feel it needs an element of downside to it.

I would say that if Zogwort rolls a perils when casting this, in addition to the normal effects, your opponent picks an infantry model from your army to be cursed. So he might squiggify Ghazkull, if you roll badly. Combining this with the +1 for every 10 orks in range, and the way that they still perils if they roll too high, means that it's a bit of a gamble to use zogworts curse.

That's a good call, though I feel your opponent would more often than not just make Zogwort a squig too, which tbf, is a good deal.

@Angel

I mean there's already a Lord Commissar which basically fulfills what you're looking for. Also, its pretty unfluffy for a commissar to receive regimental doctrines given that their whole thing is that they are meant to separate from the regiment and regular chain of command, to better ensure that the Imperial Creed is followed by having no ties to the regiment or their homeworld.

The aide seems like a return of the bodyguard from 5th ed as one of the regimental advisors, could be cool though we already have an Ogryn bodyguard and even crusaders that fill that role atm, so they'd have to be pretty cheap.

The last option sounds pretty good, would they be the Chapter Master equivalent upgrade for Company Commanders?

 Grimskul wrote:


I mean there's already a Lord Commissar which basically fulfills what you're looking for. Also, its pretty unfluffy for a commissar to receive regimental doctrines given that their whole thing is that they are meant to separate from the regiment and regular chain of command, to better ensure that the Imperial Creed is followed by having no ties to the regiment or their homeworld.

I think that Commissar still executes? There are 2 main flavours of Commissar in the BL stories- Bastard and Hero. Bastard is the classic commissar (shoots people for minor infringements, expressing any doubts, rules through fear) and Hero is the Gaunt/Cain archetype- they become one with their unit, lead through example and inspire great acts of bravery.
Gaunt learned stealth from the Tanith and Cain learned iceworld stuff from the Valhallan regiments. While they were never as good as the best, they were certainly as good as the average trooper. Where they lacked, they were covered by their men in a way that the Bastard commissar would never be (Jurgen getting Cain's goggles into position after his eyeballs froze without them)

 Grimskul wrote:
The aide seems like a return of the bodyguard from 5th ed as one of the regimental advisors, could be cool though we already have an Ogryn bodyguard and even crusaders that fill that role atm, so they'd have to be pretty cheap.

The aim is not new competitive options, it's more story driven options for legends. The goal here is to provide a sidekick character for your heroic commissar or officer, Gaunt's Milo, Cain's Jurgen, Keenan's/Creed's Kell, Blackadder's Baldric.

 Grimskul wrote:
The last option sounds pretty good, would they be the Chapter Master equivalent upgrade for Company Commanders?

Yeah, I guess. The aim is to recreate Lord solar Macharius, but with options so he could be Warmaster Slaydo, Macaroth or some really highranking Warmaster/General of your own device. The aim is not to make a beatstick character for the guard, its to provide the guard with a really durable commander (protected by the best relic bling the munitorum/crusading/connections/money can get you) who would require dedicated assault specialists to shift (as opposed to a troop choice from any MEQ or horde army) and who gives the army an elite flavour and strategic edge.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:


I mean there's already a Lord Commissar which basically fulfills what you're looking for. Also, its pretty unfluffy for a commissar to receive regimental doctrines given that their whole thing is that they are meant to separate from the regiment and regular chain of command, to better ensure that the Imperial Creed is followed by having no ties to the regiment or their homeworld.

I think that Commissar still executes? There are 2 main flavours of Commissar in the BL stories- Bastard and Hero. Bastard is the classic commissar (shoots people for minor infringements, expressing any doubts, rules through fear) and Hero is the Gaunt/Cain archetype- they become one with their unit, lead through example and inspire great acts of bravery.
Gaunt learned stealth from the Tanith and Cain learned iceworld stuff from the Valhallan regiments. While they were never as good as the best, they were certainly as good as the average trooper. Where they lacked, they were covered by their men in a way that the Bastard commissar would never be (Jurgen getting Cain's goggles into position after his eyeballs froze without them)

 Grimskul wrote:
The aide seems like a return of the bodyguard from 5th ed as one of the regimental advisors, could be cool though we already have an Ogryn bodyguard and even crusaders that fill that role atm, so they'd have to be pretty cheap.

The aim is not new competitive options, it's more story driven options for legends. The goal here is to provide a sidekick character for your heroic commissar or officer, Gaunt's Milo, Cain's Jurgen, Keenan's/Creed's Kell, Blackadder's Baldric.

 Grimskul wrote:
The last option sounds pretty good, would they be the Chapter Master equivalent upgrade for Company Commanders?

Yeah, I guess. The aim is to recreate Lord solar Macharius, but with options so he could be Warmaster Slaydo, Macaroth or some really highranking Warmaster/General of your own device. The aim is not to make a beatstick character for the guard, its to provide the guard with a really durable commander (protected by the best relic bling the munitorum/crusading/connections/money can get you) who would require dedicated assault specialists to shift (as opposed to a troop choice from any MEQ or horde army) and who gives the army an elite flavour and strategic edge.

The Lord Commissar still executes, but I mean that's what all Commissars are allowed to do, AFAIK you can just choose NOT to use it, you're not forced to in game. And since you can use his Ld of 9 that's already unlikely for a lot of Guard to break due to morale anyways. Even Gaunt executed people in the books (like when he killed his General Dercius for his role in his father's death) so it's not like he's exempt from ever exercising his right as a Commissar to mete out punishment. Also, while I get how Commissars attached to a regiment for an extended period pick up on their cultural and specialization elements, you can just demonstrate this by actually creating the profiles for Gaunt, Cain, etc specifically instead of having a generic Super Commissar option because within the context of the game people would only take that unless he's priced significantly differently given that you would almost always want a Commissar with regimental doctrines rather than without. That's kinda the purpose of the thread, is to write out characters rather than creating generic rules.

So likewise, if you want a bodyguard option for Cain/Gaunt? Write out the specific character! Same with a Warmaster/Lord Solar, I already did one with Macharius, you could easily write it out for Slaydo and Macaroth. So far you've only written the idea, but not executed it with rules, I'd like to see your take given that you seem particularly passionate about this.

I have to say, this sort of characters is waht I was expecting from "Legends".

 Grimskul wrote:

The Lord Commissar still executes, but I mean that's what all Commissars are allowed to do, AFAIK you can just choose NOT to use it, you're not forced to in game. And since you can use his Ld of 9 that's already unlikely for a lot of Guard to break due to morale anyways. Even Gaunt executed people in the books (like when he killed his General Dercius for his role in his father's death) so it's not like he's exempt from ever exercising his right as a Commissar to mete out punishment.

Sure, mostly after a battle was won or lost rather than simply blamming the CO during a battle. And Gaunt allowed men to fall back, which isn't a thing anymore I guess.

Also, while I get how Commissars attached to a regiment for an extended period pick up on their cultural and specialization elements, you can just demonstrate this by actually creating the profiles for Gaunt, Cain, etc specifically instead of having a generic Super Commissar option because within the context of the game people would only take that unless he's priced significantly differently given that you would almost always want a Commissar with regimental doctrines rather than without. That's kinda the purpose of the thread, is to write out characters rather than creating generic rules.

So likewise, if you want a bodyguard option for Cain/Gaunt? Write out the specific character! Same with a Warmaster/Lord Solar, I already did one with Macharius, you could easily write it out for Slaydo and Macaroth. So far you've only written the idea, but not executed it with rules, I'd like to see your take given that you seem particularly passionate about this.

See, I think the actual lord commissar stats are fine and I don't want rules bloat:
(Legendary luck- Cain has a 2+ invulnerable save, Duellist - Enemies must reroll successful hits in close combat, Tanna- Once per game, Cain may have a cup of tanna and regain d3 lost wounds and command points)
(Scars of Balhaut- Gaunt ignores wounds on a roll of 5+, Sword of Heironymo- to hit rolls ofa 6 generate a mortal wound in addition to any further damage, Live forever?- Once per game gaunt may give an inspiring speech. all units within 12 may move and fire twice)

What makes the commissars unique is not their loadouts but the rapport with the troops.

My understanding is that Legends exists to give old models and loadouts official rules 'adjacent' to the main game- for narrative purposes. Its not to provide a Super Commissar for tourneys. There's no reason you couldn't field the old Gaunt model as a commissar with bolt pistol and powersword. What makes the commissars above unique is not their loadouts but the rapport with the troops. They are in effect, a separate type of commissar. You could port the old rules to 8th, but having an alternate profile is a new toolbox for narrative gaming.

I haven't played enough 8th ed to have a crack at specific rules. But my approach to lost characters would be to create subclass profiles that would represent them better, and allow you to make new characters of your own device in that mould.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

The Lord Commissar still executes, but I mean that's what all Commissars are allowed to do, AFAIK you can just choose NOT to use it, you're not forced to in game. And since you can use his Ld of 9 that's already unlikely for a lot of Guard to break due to morale anyways. Even Gaunt executed people in the books (like when he killed his General Dercius for his role in his father's death) so it's not like he's exempt from ever exercising his right as a Commissar to mete out punishment.

Sure, mostly after a battle was won or lost rather than simply blamming the CO during a battle. And Gaunt allowed men to fall back, which isn't a thing anymore I guess.

Also, while I get how Commissars attached to a regiment for an extended period pick up on their cultural and specialization elements, you can just demonstrate this by actually creating the profiles for Gaunt, Cain, etc specifically instead of having a generic Super Commissar option because within the context of the game people would only take that unless he's priced significantly differently given that you would almost always want a Commissar with regimental doctrines rather than without. That's kinda the purpose of the thread, is to write out characters rather than creating generic rules.

So likewise, if you want a bodyguard option for Cain/Gaunt? Write out the specific character! Same with a Warmaster/Lord Solar, I already did one with Macharius, you could easily write it out for Slaydo and Macaroth. So far you've only written the idea, but not executed it with rules, I'd like to see your take given that you seem particularly passionate about this.

See, I think the actual lord commissar stats are fine and I don't want rules bloat:
(Legendary luck- Cain has a 2+ invulnerable save, Duellist - Enemies must reroll successful hits in close combat, Tanna- Once per game, Cain may have a cup of tanna and regain d3 lost wounds and command points)
(Scars of Balhaut- Gaunt ignores wounds on a roll of 5+, Sword of Heironymo- to hit rolls ofa 6 generate a mortal wound in addition to any further damage, Live forever?- Once per game gaunt may give an inspiring speech. all units within 12 may move and fire twice)

What makes the commissars unique is not their loadouts but the rapport with the troops.

My understanding is that Legends exists to give old models and loadouts official rules 'adjacent' to the main game- for narrative purposes. Its not to provide a Super Commissar for tourneys. There's no reason you couldn't field the old Gaunt model as a commissar with bolt pistol and powersword. What makes the commissars above unique is not their loadouts but the rapport with the troops. They are in effect, a separate type of commissar. You could port the old rules to 8th, but having an alternate profile is a new toolbox for narrative gaming.

I haven't played enough 8th ed to have a crack at specific rules. But my approach to lost characters would be to create subclass profiles that would represent them better, and allow you to make new characters of your own device in that mould.

Interesting ideas, but the reason why (as you've noted by other people in this thread) I wanted to discuss specific rules for people to look at is so you can have the closest simulation of the character you want to play, without making them come off as overly strong in game. You have to factor the opponent's enjoyment as well, so you can't have a character that is literally impossible to kill because even in a narrative setting, you need some sort of stakes and story to tell beyond "And Gaunt fought through 30 gaunts, a Hive Tyrant and 3 Carnifexes singlehandedly".

The rules bloat complaint is a little weird IMO because this is meant more for your own group's personal enjoyment and like you said it wouldn't be used in a tournament setting, so adding "build your own" commissar rules would be extra rules to learn/keep track of anyways. Have you seen the CA 2018 rules for making your own characters? It's not perfect but it does give you a fair bit of options if you wanted a generic template to base off on.

I think Legendary Luck for Cain should be 3+ invuln save max, just because 2+ invulns are extremely rare in the game as is already and its only hard counter are psychic spells like Null Zone/Death Hex or mortal wounds. I think Duellist would be better represented as him being able to re-roll either one failed to save, hit or wound roll per combat phase. The Tanna rule is pretty good and fluffy, though I would personally make it a choice of either recovering D3 wounds for Cain, OR D3 command points, both at once is too strong.

Gaunts rules look good, I would change the "Do you want to live forever" ability to allowing ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY units wholly within 12" to either move twice or shoot twice. Being able to do both is monstrously powerful since the way you wrote it would apply to things like Hellhounds, Baneblades, Basiliks, etc., basically all the things the Tanith aren't really known for, which is their light infantry. Even for infantry its pretty strong in conjunction with orders (you could probably reach into your opponent's table edge in one turn with Move! Move! Move!).

 Grimskul wrote:


Gaunts rules look good,

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The above rules were complete parody.

I don't think characters need a lot of special rules to differentiate them from the stock model- just tweaks where the stock character doesnt fit.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:


Gaunts rules look good,

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. The above rules were complete parody.

I don't think characters need a lot of special rules to differentiate them from the stock model- just tweaks where the stock character doesnt fit.

Ahhhhh, I see. My bad, text is hard to get tone from so I didn't realize you were being facetious.

Al'rahem and Chenkov both have stratagems in their honor, but:
Col. Al'rahem
M6", BS3+, WS3+, S3, T3, W4, A3, Ld8, Sv4+/5++
IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, TALLARN
INFANTRY, CHARACTER, OFFICER, COMPANY COMMANDER, COL. AL HAREM

Wargear:
Plasma Pistol
Claw of the Desert Tigers
S User, AP -3, D2
Refractor Field

Special Rules:
Desert Raider: Col. Al'rahem may be set up on a raid. If he is, INFANTRY SQUAD, HEAVY WEAPONS SQUAD, COMMAND SQUAD, SPECIAL WEAPONS SQUAD, and CHIMERA units in Col. Al'rahem's detachment may also be set up on a raid with him. At the end of the movement phase on your second or third turn, you may set up Col. Al'rahem on the board within 6" of the board edge an 9" from any enemy units. When you do, set up all other units on a raid within 6" of Col.Al'rahem and at least 6" from any enemy units.
Superior Officer: Col. Al'rahem may issue 2 orders per turn.

Col. Chenkov
M6", BS3+, WS3+, S3, T3, W4, A3, Ld9, Sv4+/5++
IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, VALHALLAN
INFANTRY, CHARACTER, OFFICER, COMPANY COMMANDER, COL. CHENKOV

Wargear:
Bolt Pistol
Chainsword
Refractor Field

Special Rules:
Draconian Disciplinarian: Friendly VALHALLAN units within 9" of Col. Chenkov may use his leadership instead of their own. No more than 1 model may flee as a result of a failed leadership test.
Superior Officer: Col. Chenkov may issue 2 orders per turn.
Send in the Next Wave!: If Col. Chenkov is in your army, friendly VALHALLAN Conscript units may pay +75 points and gain the following special rule:
"SEND IN THE NEXT WAVE: When this unit would be destroyed. Instead place it into ongoing reserves at original strength. At the end of your next movement phase, set it up on the table wholly within 6" of your board edge and more than 9" from any enemy units. This does not cost reinforcement points. This ability may only be used once per unit with this rule."

Sgt. Lukas Bastonne
M6", BS3+, WS3+, S3, T3, W4, A3, Ld10, Sv5+
IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, CADIAN
INFANTRY, CHARACTER, Lukas Bastonne

Wargear:
Laspistol
Chainsword

Special Rules:
Inspiring: Friendly CADIAN INFANTRY units within 6" of Lukas Bastonne may use his leadership instead of their own. Friendly CADIAN INFANTRY units within 6" of Lukas Bastonne may re-roll 1's to wound.


Also:
Captain Obodiah Schfeer
M10", BS2+, WS5+, S6, T8, A3, W12, Ld9, SV3+
IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, CATACHAN
VEHICLE, CHARACTER, LEMAN RUSS, TANK COMMANDER, CPT. OBODIAH SCHFEER

Wargear:
Vanquisher Cannon
Co-Axial Storm Bolter
Lascannon

Special Rules:
Co-Axial Ranging Gun: If the Co-Axial Storm Bolter scores any hits, the Cpt. Obodiah Schfeer may re-roll any to-hit rolls against that unit with his Vanquisher Gun
Grinding Advance
Tank Orders: Cpt. Obodiah Schfeer may issue 2 TANK ORDERS to friends CATACHAN LEMAN RUSS units.
Tank Hunters: Cpt, Obodiah Schfeer re-rolls any to-wound rolls against VEHICLES.
My Boys Love It!: Cpt. Schfeer has a loudspeaker system fitted to his tank that pays martial music to inspire his men and frighten his enemies. Friendly CATACHAN INFANTRY units within 12" of Schfeer may use his leadership instead of their own. Enemy INFANTRY units within 12" suffer a -1 to morale tests.

Col. Snake Stranski
M6", BS3+, WS3+, S3, T3, W4, A3, Ld8, Sv4+/5++
IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, CADIAN
INFANTRY, CHARACTER, OFFICER, COMPANY COMMANDER, COL. SNAKE STRANSKI

Wargear:
2 Plasma Pistols

Special Rules:
Armored Fist Commander: When embarked in a Chimera, Col. Stranski may issue orders, counting as if he was within range of a Vox Caster. Measure from his Chimera's hull.
Superior Officer: Col. Chenkov may issue 2 orders per turn.
All Guns Blazing: When Col. Stranski is embarked within a Chimera, he and up to 1 friendly CADIAN COMMAND SQUAD may fire their weapons from inside the Chimera during the shooting phase. Measure from the Chimera's hull for these attacks.

General Grizmund
M10", BS2+, WS5+, S6, T8, A3, W12, Ld9, SV3+
IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, MORDIAN
VEHICLE, CHARACTER, LEMAN RUSS, TANK COMMANDER, GEN. GRIZMUND

Wargear:
Battle Cannon
Heavy Bolter

Special Rules:
Tank Orders: General Grizmund may issue 2 TANK ORDERS to friends MORDIAN LEMAN RUSS units.
Grinding Advance
Best of the Best: Add 1 to hit for friendly MORDIAN LEMAN RUSS units within 6" of General Grizmund.


Weismann and 212 Arethusa are probably better left gone. Tank Commander Oddball is funny. Having a real-life SS Tank Ace [whose kill-claims are also known to be largely fabricated] in the game is much less funny.


Honorable mention to upgrades of days gone by:
Relic Ammunition [upgrade as a Relic to one LEMAN RUSS CHARACTER that is not a named character. May not be given to a character that already has a relic]
Hunter Shells: Upgrade to Vanquisher Cannon. Re-roll any to-wound rolls against VEHICLES.
Siege Shells: Upgrade to Demolisher Cannon. +1 to wound against BUILDINGS.
Infernus Shells: Upgrade to Battle Cannon. Shots from this weapon ignore cover. If it inflicts any damage, subtract 1 from the target unit's leadership until the end of the morale phase.
Beast Hunter Shells: Upgrade to Vanquisher Cannon. When this weapon inflicts damage to non-VEHICLE targets, change the damage type of this weapon to 6.
Illum Flare Shells: Upgrade to Battle Cannon. If this weapon scores any hits, friendly units within ignore to-hit penalties when targeting the unit hit by this weapon until the end of the shooting phase.
Tremor Shells: Upgrade to Battle Cannon. If this weapon inflicts any damage, reduce the movement speed and advance and charge rolls for the targeted unit until the beginning of your next turn.

 Blackie wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:


Here's a better version:
WC6
If it is manifested, select a visible enemy INFANTRY, BIKER, or CAVALRY model within 18". You and your opponent roll a d6, adding 1 to the result if the target is a Character.
If you roll equal, the enemy model suffers a Mortal Wound. If you roll higher, the enemy model suffers d3 mortal wounds and, if any models are killed as a result of this power, you may place an Angry Squig model with the profile below that is under your control, at the closest point while remaining more than 1" away from enemy models. This does not cost reinforcement points.
(Use the same profile you posted.)

So, instead of being OP, it becomes a Smite variant with an extra spawn effect.

No, it would completely kill his legendary ability. Make zog more expensive, lower the 18'' range, make that power harder to cast if it sounds overpowered but in essence he should be able to turn a character into a squig, even a powerful one with at full health, that's his thing.

Considering he can be da-jumped straight into 18" range, it's definitely a way too strong power.

I think the "Mortal Wounds, and models slain by this power turn into a squig" is probably the best way of doing it.

Or maybe "Roll a die, if this result is higher than the highest wound characteristic in the unit, a model from that unit is slain and replaced with an "Angry Squig" under that unit's player's control".