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Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

At the time of writing, they do indeed Double Dip and benefit from both.

Black Templars are Space Marines, as defined in the codex. They can (and indeed must) select a first founding chapter, which in their case is already predetermined as Imperial Fists. As far as I am aware they can access everything in the Imperial Fists supplement and there is nothing in F&F saying that they don't.


EDIT: I just noticed something fun

Codex: Space Marines says that if your warlord is a Space Marine then you must replace the default tactical objectives from that book. This isn't optional - it tells you to do it.

Codex: Imperial Fists says that if your chapter is descended from the Imperial Fists then you count as Imperial Fists for tactical objectives. The tactical objectives page then tells you to replace the defaults with the Imperial Fist ones. Again, none of this is optional.

Faith and Fury says that if your warlord is a Black Templar then you must replace the default tactical objectives with the ones from there.

My conclusion - if your warlord is a Black Templar then you are compelled to use three different sets of tactical objectives simultaneously

This is kinda surprising to me. Can anyone point to the rules that would permit BT to dip into the IF bag of goodies?

 Karthicus wrote:
This is kinda surprising to me. Can anyone point to the rules that would permit BT to dip into the IF bag of goodies?

Their founding chapter is IF. They have permission based on that. What other permission do you need?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

At the time of writing, they do indeed Double Dip and benefit from both.

How do they double dip? The BT supplement is a supplement to Codex SM, not the IF Supplement. Fluffwise, they are a successor, but ruleswise they have nothing to do with IF.

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

At the time of writing, they do indeed Double Dip and benefit from both.

How do they double dip? The BT supplement is a supplement to Codex SM, not the IF Supplement. Fluffwise, they are a successor, but ruleswise they have nothing to do with IF.

They are an Imperial Fists Successor.

To the OP: Yes, they benefit from both set of rules at the time of writing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

At the time of writing, they do indeed Double Dip and benefit from both.

How do they double dip? The BT supplement is a supplement to Codex SM, not the IF Supplement. Fluffwise, they are a successor, but ruleswise they have nothing to do with IF.

They are an Imperial Fists Successor.

To the OP: Yes, they benefit from both set of rules at the time of writing.

Right. In the fluff. Where in the rules do they gain access to anything out of the IF supplement? The BT rules in Faith and Fury only gives them permission to the contents of the SM Codex.

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

At the time of writing, they do indeed Double Dip and benefit from both.

How do they double dip? The BT supplement is a supplement to Codex SM, not the IF Supplement. Fluffwise, they are a successor, but ruleswise they have nothing to do with IF.

They are an Imperial Fists Successor.

To the OP: Yes, they benefit from both set of rules at the time of writing.

Right. In the fluff. Where in the rules do they gain access to anything out of the IF supplement? The BT rules in Faith and Fury only gives them permission to the contents of the SM Codex.

The rule that says to look at the fluff to determine whether you're a successor or not. Specifically page 56 of the Imperial Fists supplement if you need a full citation. It even explicitly excludes Crimson Fists, which shows that Black Templars ARE included, because they did not exclude Black Templars.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

At the time of writing, they do indeed Double Dip and benefit from both.

How do they double dip? The BT supplement is a supplement to Codex SM, not the IF Supplement. Fluffwise, they are a successor, but ruleswise they have nothing to do with IF.

They are an Imperial Fists Successor.

To the OP: Yes, they benefit from both set of rules at the time of writing.

Right. In the fluff. Where in the rules do they gain access to anything out of the IF supplement? The BT rules in Faith and Fury only gives them permission to the contents of the SM Codex.

The rule that says to look at the fluff to determine whether you're a successor or not. Specifically page 56 of the Imperial Fists supplement if you need a full citation. It even explicitly excludes Crimson Fists, which shows that Black Templars ARE included, because they did not exclude Black Templars.

That's exactly what i'm looking at. There are no rules to support that BT are a successor chapter though. They are in the fluff, but not in the 40k rules system. In the rules system they are a merely an offshoot of Codex Space Marines.

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

At the time of writing, they do indeed Double Dip and benefit from both.

How do they double dip? The BT supplement is a supplement to Codex SM, not the IF Supplement. Fluffwise, they are a successor, but ruleswise they have nothing to do with IF.

They are an Imperial Fists Successor.

To the OP: Yes, they benefit from both set of rules at the time of writing.

Right. In the fluff. Where in the rules do they gain access to anything out of the IF supplement? The BT rules in Faith and Fury only gives them permission to the contents of the SM Codex.

The rule that says to look at the fluff to determine whether you're a successor or not. Specifically page 56 of the Imperial Fists supplement if you need a full citation. It even explicitly excludes Crimson Fists, which shows that Black Templars ARE included, because they did not exclude Black Templars.

That's exactly what i'm looking at. There are no rules to support that BT are a successor chapter though. They are in the fluff, but not in the 40k rules system. In the rules system they are a merely an offshoot of Codex Space Marines.

Ok, here is the rule, I shall even embiggen the relevant sentence.

When you include an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit in your army that has the <CHAPTER> keyword (see Codex: Space Marines), you must decide what Chapter that unit is from. Unless you choose one of the First Founding Chapters available to you (White Scars, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Salamanders or Raven Guard), then your Chapter is a successor Chapter, and you should decide which of the aforementioned First Founding Chapters it is a successor of.

If the successor Chapter you have chosen is one established in the background of our publications, its founding Chapter will often be known (for example, the Crimson Fists are a known successor of the Imperial Fists).

Now, you already said that in the background Black Templars are an Imperial Fists Successor...

That rule is in the Imperial Fists supplement, ergo it applies to all Imperial Fists Successors (except where otherwise excepted, such as with the Crimson Fists for a few things).

I agree it's stupid and the Black Templars shouldn't get to double dip, but until errata'd or Special Snowflaked otherwise, that is the objective truth.

It is very likely to be errata'd, as it's almost certainly an oversight.

Up to you if you want to play with some free goodies for a few weeks or not, but in terms of practicing your army, you may not want to.

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

Faith & Fury FAQ is up:

Designer’s Note: We have received a number of questions asking if, as a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, the Black Templars benefit from both the Knights of Sigismund and Legacy of Dorn rules (and whether they get access to the Imperial Fists’ Warlord traits, Stratagems, psychic powers and Relics etc. in addition to the Black Templars ones presented in Faith and Fury). To be clear, although the Black Templars are an Imperial Fists successor Chapter, they deviate significantly from its tactics and doctrines, and as such we have provided a bespoke, dedicated set of rules to represent them on the tabletop in Faith & Fury. They cannot make use of any of the rules found in Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists.

I'm shocked.Shocked! Well, not that shocked.

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm shocked.Shocked! Well, not that shocked.

Hey, I was seriously considering a Black Templar's army specifically because they would get all the Imperial Fist and Black Templar goodies. Now... I'll just stick to Imperial Fists.

 Ghaz wrote:

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

Faith & Fury FAQ is up:

Designer’s Note: We have received a number of questions asking if, as a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, the Black Templars benefit from both the Knights of Sigismund and Legacy of Dorn rules (and whether they get access to the Imperial Fists’ Warlord traits, Stratagems, psychic powers and Relics etc. in addition to the Black Templars ones presented in Faith and Fury). To be clear, although the Black Templars are an Imperial Fists successor Chapter, they deviate significantly from its tactics and doctrines, and as such we have provided a bespoke, dedicated set of rules to represent them on the tabletop in Faith & Fury. They cannot make use of any of the rules found in Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists.

Wow, it was the answer that was incredibly obvious to anyone employing even a modicum of common sense all along! Whoever could have guessed?

 Nazrak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

Faith & Fury FAQ is up:

Designer’s Note: We have received a number of questions asking if, as a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, the Black Templars benefit from both the Knights of Sigismund and Legacy of Dorn rules (and whether they get access to the Imperial Fists’ Warlord traits, Stratagems, psychic powers and Relics etc. in addition to the Black Templars ones presented in Faith and Fury). To be clear, although the Black Templars are an Imperial Fists successor Chapter, they deviate significantly from its tactics and doctrines, and as such we have provided a bespoke, dedicated set of rules to represent them on the tabletop in Faith & Fury. They cannot make use of any of the rules found in Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists.

Wow, it was the answer that was incredibly obvious to anyone employing even a modicum of common sense all along! Whoever could have guessed?

It's almost like the FAQ proves that RaW they did get it and they had to FAQ it to deny it, thus proving the RaW crowd right all along!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Julistaja wrote:
Black Templars got rules in Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury. They are still Imperial Fists successor chapter so can they use Imperial Fists supplement?

Faith & Fury FAQ is up:

Designer’s Note: We have received a number of questions asking if, as a successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists, the Black Templars benefit from both the Knights of Sigismund and Legacy of Dorn rules (and whether they get access to the Imperial Fists’ Warlord traits, Stratagems, psychic powers and Relics etc. in addition to the Black Templars ones presented in Faith and Fury). To be clear, although the Black Templars are an Imperial Fists successor Chapter, they deviate significantly from its tactics and doctrines, and as such we have provided a bespoke, dedicated set of rules to represent them on the tabletop in Faith & Fury. They cannot make use of any of the rules found in Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists.

Wow, it was the answer that was incredibly obvious to anyone employing even a modicum of common sense all along! Whoever could have guessed?

It's almost like the FAQ proves that RaW they did get it and they had to FAQ it to deny it, thus proving the RaW crowd right all along!

Or it's like a 'watch your step' sign on an escalator. Even though obvious, some people still need it spelled out so they don't fall on their face.

BCB keeps playing the “they changed it so I was right” card after just about every FAQ.

For a certain value of true he’s correct, in that the wording originally used didn’t reflect the designers’ intentions, so it was amended.

This in no way, however, proves his ideology of “rules before sense” true. The rule was written in a way that didn’t do what the designers intended. The new wording matches wording to intent.

So everyone gets to be correct, yay, whether they’re RaW well ackshuallying, or played to intent. Everyone should be happy, yet some try to make things divisive yet again. Hey ho. Let’s not circle this drain again eh BCB? Appreciate the clarity and move on instead of pointless soapboxing.