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You know the stats. Why are CAS only 52 points per model? A comparable unit is Custodes Aquilon Terminators, who have the same Strength, Toughness, and Wounds, but with worse shooting and melee, with a cost of around 80~? These guys seem like an auto include because they are so good. Sorry for the complainy sounding post.

To sell more kits.

ccs wrote:
To sell more kits.

In a nutshell, this. I'm pretty sure CA is more or less a way to make people buy more models since everyone gets price cuts, its only egregiously competitive units that get the slap occasionally, and usually because they've made enough money from their kits already.

Before the supplements, they had god awful movement stats with no way of improving it other than land raiders. Their points are balanced with that in mind.

RG and WS supplement flat out ignores that weakness, making them utterly undercosted.

Most likely a lack of joined up thinking, part GW's idea of how the game is played being on a slightly different frequency to how it is played, part some of CA being done prior to the marine free buff tsunami

Like said above. They have a 4" move statistic and were utterly unplayable before. They are still just okay in any other army other than WS or RG. Lets also not forget that custodians hit on 2's - and have 4++ saves. Not saying that custodians shouldn't get a few more drops or at least the ability to advance shoot and charge.

We know they are unplayable if you raise their points...we have already been there. Look at how they are being utilized...nerf the thing that makes them OP...

 Xenomancers wrote:
Like said above. They have a 4" move statistic and were utterly unplayable before. They are still just okay in any other army other than WS or RG. Lets also not forget that custodians hit on 2's - and have 4++ saves. Not saying that custodians shouldn't get a few more drops or at least the ability to advance shoot and charge.

We know they are unplayable if you raise their points...we have already been there. Look at how they are being utilized...nerf the thing that makes them OP...

Ultramarines and Iron Hands are cool. They lose the best part of Imperial Fists but then again get the exploding hits.

Really the least beneficial are the worst two, which are Salamanders (too many shots to get that much out of it, and the Super Doctrine works better with the bonus 3" range) and Crimson Fists (the bonus moving from double the models to 5 made them strictly worse as 3 man and 4 man squads, which is mostly preferable).

 Continuity wrote:
Before the supplements, they had god awful movement stats with no way of improving it other than land raiders. Their points are balanced with that in mind.

RG and WS supplement flat out ignores that weakness, making them utterly undercosted.

The Stormraven says hello.

I actually kind of agree with the OP on this even pre-suppliments. The Assault Cent is basically half a Boltstorm Aggressor and half a Flamegauntlet Aggressor (each at full power) nailed together with an extra wound and a better save and better melee, and without forcing you into taking one of the specific sets of suppliment buffs that mitigates the Aggressor's weaknesses.

The Newman wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
Before the supplements, they had god awful movement stats with no way of improving it other than land raiders. Their points are balanced with that in mind.

RG and WS supplement flat out ignores that weakness, making them utterly undercosted.

The Stormraven says hello.

I actually kind of agree with the OP on this even pre-suppliments. The Assault Cent is basically half a Boltstorm Aggressor and half a Flamegauntlet Aggressor (each at full power) nailed together with an extra wound and a better save and better melee, and without forcing you into taking one of the specific sets of suppliment buffs that mitigates the Aggressor's weaknesses.

because that was tearing up the scene before

It's simply because supplements can erase their biggest weakest without compromise (compromise being a stormraven getting shot out of sky at start of game making your cents also worthless)

This is what happens when each chapter has significant rules difference. Do you see assault cents in anything other than WS and RG. Ideally they would be points costed higher in those two armies.

 Smirrors wrote:
This is what happens when each chapter has significant rules difference. Do you see assault cents in anything other than WS and RG. Ideally they would be points costed higher in those two armies.

Except they really shouldn't, just because two armies can mitigate the problems of the unit because, let's face it, if you want them dead they'll die.

What that shows is the problems of the IGOUGO system. The two armies that can actually use them are actually stopping you from getting T1 and just blowing them off the board. It's a symptom of writing for an outdated game system.

Shareholders like money.

GW learnt long ago that people will buy the models with the best rules, regardless of aesthetics and price.

GW does all it can to make as much money as possible.

Ass Cents are the perfect example of this and are criminally undercosted.

This is what happens when you take a unit that is flawed at its core (4" movement low range assault unit) and drop points until it gets played instead of reworking the unit's rules.

But they did change the rules. Being able to deploy 9" away from the opponent with buffs to weapon range and charge, complements the units strenght very nice. A 4" move unit is laughable when it has to start 24" away from the enemy, even if an objective is near it won't impact the game much. But a unit that charges along side other units, or supports the initial wave of units that deployed 9" from the enemy on turn 1, is huge.

opponent can just ignore them, specially with the RG sniper buffs, and you can't just charge them, because they have a super powerful overwatch and melee is their forte too.

The rules change is great, because it makes them have practicaly no bad sides, besides rapid redeployment.

Karol wrote:
The rules change is great, because it makes them have practicaly no bad sides, besides rapid redeployment.

A unit with 'practically no bad sides' is not 'great' and should not be encouraged. Christ on a bike. This is why we don't have nice things - people actually want units to be OP.

Ass Cents are stupid at their current points cost. Even without the layered SM rules that take them from 'aggressively priced' (which is just vernacular for OP) to 'auto include' (which is vernacular for broken). What a mess.

9

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Karol wrote:
The rules change is great, because it makes them have practicaly no bad sides, besides rapid redeployment.

A unit with 'practically no bad sides' is not 'great' and should not be encouraged. Christ on a bike. This is why we don't have nice things - people actually want units to be OP.

Ass Cents are stupid at their current points cost. Even without the layered SM rules that take them from 'aggressively priced' (which is just vernacular for OP) to 'auto include' (which is vernacular for broken). What a mess.

EVERYTHING should have a downside. Including faction traits.

Like in hh, your legion trait comes with downsides as do rites of war. At the very least faction traits should cost points.

Nobody is taking ass cents (in a general statement of course, people will always play outliers occasionally) if they aren't playing RG or WS. The points value is then fairly meaningless, especially if they are going to be handcuffed to another overpriced unit for a means of delivery.

I don't know what WS do to make them better (I just don't know WS period), but I do play Raven Guard (but own zero Cents). The problem is the keyword, they should not be classed as Infantry...problem solved (at least for Ravenguard).

 bullyboy wrote:
Nobody is taking ass cents (in a general statement of course, people will always play outliers occasionally) if they aren't playing RG or WS. The points value is then fairly meaningless, especially if they are going to be handcuffed to another overpriced unit for a means of delivery.

I don't know what WS do to make them better (I just don't know WS period), but I do play Raven Guard (but own zero Cents). The problem is the keyword, they should not be classed as Infantry...problem solved (at least for Ravenguard).

WS have a strat to deploy units from reserve (outside 9" of the enemy, within 6" of a board edge) and a strat to let you disembark from a non-Aircraft after movement.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Karol wrote:
The rules change is great, because it makes them have practicaly no bad sides, besides rapid redeployment.

A unit with 'practically no bad sides' is not 'great' and should not be encouraged. Christ on a bike. This is why we don't have nice things - people actually want units to be OP.

Ass Cents are stupid at their current points cost. Even without the layered SM rules that take them from 'aggressively priced' (which is just vernacular for OP) to 'auto include' (which is vernacular for broken). What a mess.

yeah, because it is better to get stuff that is balanced, and next month or two a new codex comes out that is not balanced, then another one. And suddenly your balanced and fun codex is maybe fun, if you play a mirror match. A unit with good rules and no bad sides, can stay good for months, sometimes years and requires drastic nerfs to be made bad. A balanced one can be wasted money a month after you buy it, and that is both ain't very fun and not everyone can afford to play the game like that, at least not if they want to have fun with their armies.

Because they are so ugly.

No matter how good they are the models are the worst invention GW has created for marines.

I'd only field them if they were ambot conversions or redone entirely - my personal opinion is that they should have been 'light dreds' as a chapter undoubtedly has more severely injured warriors than dreadnought chassis' to put them in.

Put dreadnaught sarcophagus in the middle and it suddenly makes far more sense.

Karol wrote:
A unit with good rules and no bad sides, can stay good for months, sometimes years and requires drastic nerfs to be made bad. A balanced one can be wasted money a month after you buy it, and that is both ain't very fun and not everyone can afford to play the game like that, at least not if they want to have fun with their armies.

Am I misunderstanding or does this boil down to 'it's good for units to be overpowered because then they're less likely to become bad'?

Hellebore wrote:
Because they are so ugly.

No matter how good they are the models are the worst invention GW has created for marines.

I'd only field them if they were ambot conversions or redone entirely - my personal opinion is that they should have been 'light dreds' as a chapter undoubtedly has more severely injured warriors than dreadnought chassis' to put them in.

Put dreadnaught sarcophagus in the middle and it suddenly makes far more sense.

I will never own a centurion. Even if they were 0 points i would never play a centurion. Nothing says lost your way more than those ridiculous models. Well besides blowing up the old world in a 'if i cant have her all to myself then i will kill her instead' fit of coke induced chapterhouse nerd rage.

 jeff white wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Because they are so ugly.

No matter how good they are the models are the worst invention GW has created for marines.

I'd only field them if they were ambot conversions or redone entirely - my personal opinion is that they should have been 'light dreds' as a chapter undoubtedly has more severely injured warriors than dreadnought chassis' to put them in.

Put dreadnaught sarcophagus in the middle and it suddenly makes far more sense.

I will never own a centurion. Even if they were 0 points i would never play a centurion. Nothing says lost your way more than those ridiculous models. Well besides blowing up the old world in a 'if i cant have her all to myself then i will kill her instead' fit of coke induced chapterhouse nerd rage.

Centurions are the second best looking models in GW's entire product line, and that's only because Tyranid Warriors are pure concentrated win.

Or to put it another way; "That's just, like, your opinion man."

The Newman wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Because they are so ugly.

No matter how good they are the models are the worst invention GW has created for marines.

I'd only field them if they were ambot conversions or redone entirely - my personal opinion is that they should have been 'light dreds' as a chapter undoubtedly has more severely injured warriors than dreadnought chassis' to put them in.

Put dreadnaught sarcophagus in the middle and it suddenly makes far more sense.

I will never own a centurion. Even if they were 0 points i would never play a centurion. Nothing says lost your way more than those ridiculous models. Well besides blowing up the old world in a 'if i cant have her all to myself then i will kill her instead' fit of coke induced chapterhouse nerd rage.

Centurions are the second best looking models in GW's entire product line, and that's only because Tyranid Warriors are pure concentrated win.

Or to put it another way; "That's just, like, your opinion man."

Yeah everyone that has actually put together the kit disagrees.

Leaving the thigh guards off and some head swaps help a bit. It’s not the best kit out there, but it’s salvageable.

The aesthetics of the kit kept me from picking it up for a long time. And this was last edition when grav cents in pods were melting people’s faces off. So they had some disgusting rules to help push the models. I finally saw enough that had been converted to something a little bit better to convince me to grab a box. But they never made their way to the front of the build queue before 8th nerfed them to uselessness. But the points drops and chapter rules have brought some new life to them, so I finally put mine together.

Primary build is assaults with flamers and HB, but the arm guns are magnetized, to run as grav devs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
Because they are so ugly.

No matter how good they are the models are the worst invention GW has created for marines.

I'd only field them if they were ambot conversions or redone entirely - my personal opinion is that they should have been 'light dreds' as a chapter undoubtedly has more severely injured warriors than dreadnought chassis' to put them in.

Put dreadnaught sarcophagus in the middle and it suddenly makes far more sense.

I will never own a centurion. Even if they were 0 points i would never play a centurion. Nothing says lost your way more than those ridiculous models. Well besides blowing up the old world in a 'if i cant have her all to myself then i will kill her instead' fit of coke induced chapterhouse nerd rage.

Centurions are the second best looking models in GW's entire product line, and that's only because Tyranid Warriors are pure concentrated win.

Or to put it another way; "That's just, like, your opinion man."

Yeah everyone that has actually put together the kit disagrees.

I've put together two boxes of them, therefore I'm part of "everyone that has actually put together the kit", therefore you're wrong.

I've recently got 2 SM Centurion boxes and I've had great fun putting them together and magnetizing all options.
I wanted to get them since when they were released, but at the time I played GK and they weren't an option. Now I have a small SM force and they have been my first purchase after some troop choices.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Shareholders like money.

GW learnt long ago that people will buy the models with the best rules, regardless of aesthetics and price.

GW does all it can to make as much money as possible.

Ass Cents are the perfect example of this and are criminally undercosted.

Centurions, IH Colors, and Leviathans are the literal poster children for "That Guy" at the FLGS. The one that has to be ultra competitive no matter what.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Centurions, IH Colors, and Leviathans are the literal poster children for "That Guy" at the FLGS. The one that has to be ultra competitive no matter what.

38" threat range with no move penalty. One single 155 point Moirax kills 104 points of Centurions. If your meta is Centurions bust them out. If you're facing Levis then 3 of them can likely bring one down (or at least cripple for something else to finish it off) without needing to start in the threat range of Storm Cannons.