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Hey guys. I'm new to dakka and basically made an account just to ask this question. I havent seen anyone talk about it at all and it bothers me.

With faith and fury, when it comes to chaos space marine legions, it explicitly states "If a World Eaters Character model is your Warlord, you can use the Warlord Traits table on the page opposite instead of those found in other publications to determine what Warlord Trait they have."

Does this mean I can give Kharn the Betrayer one of the new 5 traits instead of Slaughterborn? I know he has a specific WL trait in the chaos marine codex, but the new book does go out of it's way to list what warlord traits the black templar characters have, and this is not repeated with any chaos characters. And I know that new books trump old books when it comes to rules.

This also effects fabius bile, too. So any input would help.

Would be cool to run Kharn with Arch Slaughterer for extra killyness.

You cannot give Kharn one of the new traits, the rule forcing him to take his own trait takes precedent.

Same for any other named character who has a specified trait.

I disagree, the wording of F&F allows named characters to use a warlord trait from the book. New rules trump older rules. It clearly says : "...opposite instead of those found in other publications.".

 p5freak wrote:
I disagree, the wording of F&F allows named characters to use a warlord trait from the book. New rules trump older rules. It clearly says : "...opposite instead of those found in other publications.".

I would say that a restriction overrules a permission, and given
it is also more specific then that is what I would go with.

If a rule says "all units can do this" and another rule says "these specific units must do this instead", the latter rule must take precedent.

 p5freak wrote:
I disagree, the wording of F&F allows named characters to use a warlord trait from the book. New rules trump older rules. It clearly says : "...opposite instead of those found in other publications.".

I'm going to need a citation on new rules trumping older rules that they do no specifically overwrite.

So I must agree. "Named" Characters must take the Warlord Trait specified in their Codex, not any of the new PA Warlord Traits.

The actual rule from F&F is this :

If a WORLD EATERS CHARACTER model is your Warlord, you can generate a Warlord Trait from the following table instead of the one from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can either roll on the table below to randomly generate a Warlord Trait, or you can select the one that best suits your Warlord’s preferred style of waging war.

Even if you dont believe that new rules trump old rules, this gives you permission to select a warlord trait from the table below for a WE character, which includes named ones.

But it does not give you specific permission to override the specific rule that states the precise WT the named character must have.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
But it does not give you specific permission to override the specific rule that states the precise WT the named character must have.

Agreed. The quote changes nothing.

 p5freak wrote:
The actual rule from F&F is this :

If a WORLD EATERS CHARACTER model is your Warlord, you can generate a Warlord Trait from the following table instead of the one from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can either roll on the table below to randomly generate a Warlord Trait, or you can select the one that best suits your Warlord’s preferred style of waging war.

Even if you dont believe that new rules trump old rules, this gives you permission to select a warlord trait from the table below for a WE character, which includes named ones.

So.. that's not true.. go to page 90 of faith & fury and it actually says word for word what I quoted in my original post. It specifically says "instead of those found in other publications" in the text. I know you're agreeing with me here, but I feel its disingenuous to change what the text says. Although I do feel like including rules from other publications is pretty specific and will override rules found "in other publications".

 LordOfWar wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
The actual rule from F&F is this :

If a WORLD EATERS CHARACTER model is your Warlord, you can generate a Warlord Trait from the following table instead of the one from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can either roll on the table below to randomly generate a Warlord Trait, or you can select the one that best suits your Warlord’s preferred style of waging war.

Even if you dont believe that new rules trump old rules, this gives you permission to select a warlord trait from the table below for a WE character, which includes named ones.

So.. that's not true.. go to page 90 of faith & fury and it actually says word for word what I quoted in my original post. It specifically says "instead of those found in other publications" in the text. I know you're agreeing with me here, but I feel its disingenuous to change what the text says. Although I do feel like including rules from other publications is pretty specific and will override rules found "in other publications".

Look one page over at the top of the page, above the World Eaters Warlord Traits table.

 Ghaz wrote:

 LordOfWar wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
The actual rule from F&F is this :

If a WORLD EATERS CHARACTER model is your Warlord, you can generate a Warlord Trait from the following table instead of the one from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can either roll on the table below to randomly generate a Warlord Trait, or you can select the one that best suits your Warlord’s preferred style of waging war.

Even if you dont believe that new rules trump old rules, this gives you permission to select a warlord trait from the table below for a WE character, which includes named ones.

So.. that's not true.. go to page 90 of faith & fury and it actually says word for word what I quoted in my original post. It specifically says "instead of those found in other publications" in the text. I know you're agreeing with me here, but I feel its disingenuous to change what the text says. Although I do feel like including rules from other publications is pretty specific and will override rules found "in other publications".

Look one page over at the top of the page, above the World Eaters Warlord Traits table.

Ah! Good catch! Thanks. It mentioning "the one" from the codex really pushes me further to believe our swell guy can take any of them.

The warlord trait Kharn can take is specified on his datasheet, he must take it regardless of other traits being available. It's the same deal for any other named character. See blood of baal for examples of characters in PA having to take specific WTs.

 cole1114 wrote:
The warlord trait Kharn can take is specified on his datasheet, he must take it regardless of other traits being available. It's the same deal for any other named character. See blood of baal for examples of characters in PA having to take specific WTs.

It doesnt matter what blood of baal says. This is a different book, with different rules. You can give kharn any warlord trait you want to from pg. 91.

WORLD EATERS WARLORD TRAITS

If a WORLD EATERS CHARACTER model is your Warlord, you can generate a Warlord Trait from the following table instead of the one from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can either roll on the table below to randomly generate a Warlord Trait, or you can select the one that best suits your Warlord’s preferred style of waging war.

 LordOfWar wrote:
Hey guys. I'm new to dakka and basically made an account just to ask this question. I havent seen anyone talk about it at all and it bothers me.

With faith and fury, when it comes to chaos space marine legions, it explicitly states "If a World Eaters Character model is your Warlord, you can use the Warlord Traits table on the page opposite instead of those found in other publications to determine what Warlord Trait they have."

Does this mean I can give Kharn the Betrayer one of the new 5 traits instead of Slaughterborn? I know he has a specific WL trait in the chaos marine codex, but the new book does go out of it's way to list what warlord traits the black templar characters have, and this is not repeated with any chaos characters. And I know that new books trump old books when it comes to rules.

This also effects fabius bile, too. So any input would help.

Would be cool to run Kharn with Arch Slaughterer for extra killyness.

You've had lots of replies saying ya and nay.

Often, if something gray gives you the advantage, take the lesser route of power. Lastly, Check with your local TO or chime in on FaceBook with TOs of the ITC, if you're gonna play there.

For me, I'd say that Kharne is gonna stick with his rules given trait, and Fabby would too. I'd rule it that way. I mean, think, do you really think any big event, like a GT, would allow Abby to come in altered?

Besides a Slaanesh "endurance competition" with a brigade of daemonettes?

 Brothererekose wrote:

 LordOfWar wrote:
Hey guys. I'm new to dakka and basically made an account just to ask this question. I havent seen anyone talk about it at all and it bothers me.

With faith and fury, when it comes to chaos space marine legions, it explicitly states "If a World Eaters Character model is your Warlord, you can use the Warlord Traits table on the page opposite instead of those found in other publications to determine what Warlord Trait they have."

Does this mean I can give Kharn the Betrayer one of the new 5 traits instead of Slaughterborn? I know he has a specific WL trait in the chaos marine codex, but the new book does go out of it's way to list what warlord traits the black templar characters have, and this is not repeated with any chaos characters. And I know that new books trump old books when it comes to rules.

This also effects fabius bile, too. So any input would help.

Would be cool to run Kharn with Arch Slaughterer for extra killyness.

You've had lots of replies saying ya and nay.

Often, if something gray gives you the advantage, take the lesser route of power. Lastly, Check with your local TO or chime in on FaceBook with TOs of the ITC, if you're gonna play there.

For me, I'd say that Kharne is gonna stick with his rules given trait, and Fabby would too. I'd rule it that way. I mean, think, do you really think any big event, like a GT, would allow Abby to come in altered?

Besides a Slaanesh "endurance competition" with a brigade of daemonettes?

Yeah, I can see that thinking being reasonable, but I'm looking less for a "I would learn this way in any scenario I couldn't figure out" and more for a "what do the rules actually say".

I also dont think giving Kharn another WL trait is unfair, as if I'm running world eaters, I'm not running any spells. And that's basically chaos bread and butter. So I'm already disadvantaging (is that a word?) myself already by running my legion to begin with.

I also feel like any TO would side with hard rules over feelings, or else people would have problems with the entire event.

I do appreciate the input, though. And I'm definitely going to be talking about this with my opponents beforehand so it's not bamboozling them. I just want clear hard "this is the rules, it says I can do this" before doing it or having to talk to anyone about it.

That way I can just reference this thread filled with rules lawyers with much more learned opinions and facts instead of having any sort of arguement in or before game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:
The warlord trait Kharn can take is specified on his datasheet, he must take it regardless of other traits being available. It's the same deal for any other named character. See blood of baal for examples of characters in PA having to take specific WTs.

It doesnt matter what blood of baal says. This is a different book, with different rules. You can give kharn any warlord trait you want to from pg. 91.

WORLD EATERS WARLORD TRAITS

If a WORLD EATERS CHARACTER model is your Warlord, you can generate a Warlord Trait from the following table instead of the one from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can either roll on the table below to randomly generate a Warlord Trait, or you can select the one that best suits your Warlord’s preferred style of waging war.

I also want to point out that nowhere on Kharns datasheet does it say what warlord trait he uses.

He has both permission to select a new warlord trait and a rule saying he MUST select a specific trait.

How do you satisfy both of those rules? By selecting the stated trait-there is no "Must" in opening a new table up, but there is for his set trait.

 p5freak wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:
The warlord trait Kharn can take is specified on his datasheet, he must take it regardless of other traits being available. It's the same deal for any other named character. See blood of baal for examples of characters in PA having to take specific WTs.

It doesnt matter what blood of baal says. This is a different book, with different rules. You can give kharn any warlord trait you want to from pg. 91.

No you can not, see below for why this is.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:
The warlord trait Kharn can take is specified on his datasheet, he must take it regardless of other traits being available. It's the same deal for any other named character. See blood of baal for examples of characters in PA having to take specific WTs.

It doesnt matter what blood of baal says. This is a different book, with different rules. You can give kharn any warlord trait you want to from pg. 91.

No you can not, see below for why this is.

WORLD EATERS WARLORD TRAITS

If a WORLD EATERS CHARACTER model is your Warlord, you can generate a Warlord Trait from the following table instead of the one from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook or Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can either roll on the table below to randomly generate a Warlord Trait, or you can select the one that best suits your Warlord’s preferred style of waging war.

LordOfWar is correct, Kharn doesn't actually generate a warlord trait, it's picked for him. It's the same as pretty much any named character, from Eldrad to Gabriel Angelos. Unless his specified warlord trait is changed by the book (which it wasn't) he's gotta take the one specified for him.

Kharn doesnt generate warlord trait. He has a predetermined WL trait. Meaning, he doesnt have access to WL trait table found in any of the previous publications that can be altered via rule from F&F.

Faith and Fury gives extra permissions but nothing override the restriction Khârn has locking him to a specific WLT. He must still use the preset trait from the Codex. The supplement would have to specifically override his restriction, which it does not.

I presented this to my gaming group as well, and all but one of them said they felt Kharn could pick whatever trait he wants to. The one who said otherwise laid out his thoughts on the wording from page 91;

He says it needs an F.A.Q. based on what the rule means when it says "instead of the one" from the core rulebook or the chaos marine codex. And whether or not it means "the one" World Eaters trait, OR its referring to the Warlord Trait Table from both books.

It's in the rules specifically relating to World Eaters legion Warlord Traits, so it suggests it means the singular trait of Slaughterborn. But it also refers to the Warlord Trait tables.

So now, after reading everyone's comments here, and taking into account my one mechanicus gaming buddy's thoughts..

I'm no longer leaning towards letting Kharn take whatever. But I still can't really make my own decision. I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and effort. And I'm going to talk with whatever opponent beforehand to see how they feel about it before playing if I wanna try new traits for the big guy.

I'll still lurk this thread and see if anyone has a solid concrete point or other similar precedence with rules. Thanks again, guys. You were all a big help.

 JNAProductions wrote:
He has both permission to select a new warlord trait and a rule saying he MUST select a specific trait.

How do you satisfy both of those rules? By selecting the stated trait-there is no "Must" in opening a new table up, but there is for his set trait.

I agree with this. The only way to follow all of the rules is to take the pre-determined trait.

 JNAProductions wrote:
He has both permission to select a new warlord trait and a rule saying he MUST select a specific trait.

How do you satisfy both of those rules? By selecting the stated trait-there is no "Must" in opening a new table up, but there is for his set trait.

Agreed. This is a case of Specific versus General. The general statement that allows a WORLD EATERS CHARACTER to take a Warlord Trait falls to the specific wording that Khârn MUST take the 'Slaughterborn' trait since it is not specifically noted as overriding the chart from Codex: Chaos Space Marines.