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 Ernestas wrote:
The problem is that Fabius Bile existed in a lore since forever. He had done plenty of stuff like for example New Men who are like natural superhuman versions of simple humans. They look identical, can interbreed and transfer their genes to next generation. There was some lore how Chaos was spreading these New Men among Imperial worlds, but then...we got mary sue who was living in a basement for 10k years and managed to put Emperor's work to shame. The issue is how Primaris Marines were introduced, not that they exist. Why for example they can't be continuation of ancient Thunder Warrior's program? They were superior to space marines. They could sell just as well with all this new modern armor. It is just GW being gak at their jobs.


I'm thinking of getting Thunder Warrior miniature and using it as primaris marine just to dig that point to anyone in my hobby store!

the problem isn't the lore, the problem is that some people demand all the answers right away and haven't read as GW's developed the lore.

Indeed, knowing the lore at this point is many years investment. It doesn't help that GW writing quality often varies from absolutely abysmal to the point that children could come with a better story to genuinely one of the greatest books you will read in your life. It is either very bad or very good. Sometimes story is good, but then plot armor thickens and some chapters are just asinine stupid.

Here is an example. Magnus fought a God. He got his ass handed to him badly. Before he was going to die, he said: hey, I know that you experienced some rough gak in the past, but come live in my book, it will be great, I swear it. God then agrees and goes to live in Magnus magical book where it experiences many wonderful things.

Like I'm not even exaggerating here. This is literally how story had ended. Writer just written himself into the corner and simply didn't gave two gaks about it. Even I as a child came up with better stories than this, professional author with years of experience who got paid to do this...

What? Please explain the book thing.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
No. All csm should have veteran stats. They should be more skilled than primaris but have less raw power. They should be the old breed of warrior going against the new breed. Like Kurt Russell in Soldier.

Because they're 10000 fething years old.

No. Just no. Legions are gone. Dead. Buried. Norwegian Blue parrot. Kicked the bucket. Went dodo. What you have left is a small core of veterans (Chosen or cult troops) plus new recruits who are if anything younger than typical loyalists due to worse gear and battlefield support network.

That, and the issue mentioned above, that for a lot of 'legion' members who didn't die Heresy was a few years ago, not 10.000 years ago, and they have no business being on the level of actual SM veteran who saw constant war for centuries. Being a petty raider or pirate =/= being a veteran.

Though, funnily enough, 8th edition is flexible enough to cater even to such headcanons as above, just take 3 detachments of nothing but chaos HQs, there, you have your (kind of fluff breaking, but whatever, these are your dudes) super leet, super skilled army

123ply wrote:
Funny thing is that its supposed to be Chaos that innovates (heresy) while the Imperium stagnates

Yeah, and that's why CSM had storm bolters, storm shields, razorbacks, land speeders, thunder hammers, assault cannons, centurions, etc, etc, etc.

Oh wait

pm713 wrote:
What? Please explain the book thing.

wasn't a god, was a deamon.

To those who say legions dont exist anymore, Alpha Legion are there. So are Word Bearers. Theres no evidence they A) broke up. And/or B) never formed together into a solid force. And with evidence from previous battles, as soon as Magnus shows up, the Thousand Sons reform as a legion with a United purpose. This happened at fenris recently. If Perturabo from the Iron Warriors made a move, you can be sure every warband (like every company) would throw back into legion strength again.

Even Angron lead a force of berzerkers 50,000 strong in m.38 and burned 70 sectors for over 250 years. When you look at some legions being only ever 10k strong at best during the crusade, trying to say that legions dont exist in current 40k is very disingenuous. Though I will admit the World Eaters were the poster child for shattering and forming warbands, just because many legions have splinter forces that break off and do their own thing, it does not mean their legion is dead and gone.

Some legions shattered, some stayed together. Some shattered, then reformed (Black Legion being the poster child here). Some shattered, and reform time to time when their primarch makes money moves.

a bunch of independant warbands making common purpose temporarily due to a personality cult around their primarch getting off his duff does not a legion make

Well said. Even the Night lords can reunite from time to time as shown in Throne of Lies.

Personally I think most of the "legions don't exist anymore " stuff just comes from loyalists players who just need an excuse for gw making heretics inferior. It's obviously not supported by the lore.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well said. Even the Night lords can reunite from time to time as shown in Throne of Lies.

Personally I think most of the "legions don't exist anymore " stuff just comes from loyalists players who just need an excuse for gw making heretics inferior. It's obviously not supported by the lore.

except when people talk about the legions they're not saying "ohh these guys never get together en masse" rather they're talking about a unified command structure, logistics chain etc. if a handfull of nightlords warbands get together, there's not likely to be a offical chain of command, instead the various warband leaders will just agree to cooperate.... until the inevitable betrayals

BrianDavion wrote:
a bunch of independant warbands making common purpose temporarily due to a personality cult around their primarch getting off his duff does not a legion make

No a thousands strong force of space marines following their gene father obviously isn't a legion.

Obviously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well said. Even the Night lords can reunite from time to time as shown in Throne of Lies.

Personally I think most of the "legions don't exist anymore " stuff just comes from loyalists players who just need an excuse for gw making heretics inferior. It's obviously not supported by the lore.

except when people talk about the legions they're not saying "ohh these guys never get together en masse" rather they're talking about a unified command structure, logistics chain etc. if a handfull of nightlords warbands get together, there's not likely to be a offical chain of command, instead the various warband leaders will just agree to cooperate.... until the inevitable betrayals

Word Bearers have their own supply and even dark mechanicus worlds. What would you call that?

And of course no Imperial forces EVER fight each other. (Cough cough all the fething time).

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What? Please explain the book thing.

wasn't a god, was a deamon.

Well, technically that is not correct, because a demon is made out of warp. This thing was made out of for centuries tortured souls of psykers all crying out for vengeance those will and demise in very same torture chambers had given birth to a God. It was at power level capable of completely destroying an entire planet which it did and it screamed with every damned soul which were tortured and murdered within those halls. This thing was well beyond power level of your Primarchs and Demon Princes. Only similarly ridiculous entity had entered real space in Dark Angels first novel where demon man handled Lion as he would be a child. It wasn't Demon Prince, but an angel who came to save its people from invaders once again. Those seemed to be largely unaligned warp entities to four Chaos Gods all together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for a question of legions, they stay united. A lot of them had fractured, but as pointed out, Primarchs are still capable of uniting them temporary on same goal. Night Lords will always unite to avenge their secret shame and to honor the memory of the Night Haunter. Thousands Sons will unite behind a servitor if it means that they could stick it to those Emperor's dogs one more time. World Eaters are most broken band and will hardly unite, but they do still share some common goals. They enjoy butchery. They need to fight as fish needs water. They enjoy loot. They also enjoy pleasing Khorne by going to Black Crusades in order to slaughter Imperials. They might not give two feths about Angron and pay him only lip service, but he is still something much greater than them all, respected by both demons and mortals. He is Khorne's favorite son which means that anyone who stands close to him will be far more likely to attract attention of Khorne too which is a big deal for religious types. This is why everyone unites around him. They serve their warband first and Primarch/legion distant second, but they still unite into singular military force.

As for others, Lord Bearers always were a large and united force. They remained legion even in all this time. Though, they are another extreme like World Eaters represented total disintegration, Word Bearers represent greatest unity through theocracy. Chaos Space Marine WILL NOT question Dark Apostle, because that would be heresy of the highest order. His mandate and rule was given by the Gods. Who are you to replace him? Another legion is Black Legion. They are united in their purpose of waging the Long War. They also are united in their desire for brotherhood and for times being as before. Read, listen to their book where Abbadon assassin talks about his life, there is a lot of insider information there. Basically Abbadon came and said: "Hey guys, remember how cool it was when we were brothers fighting together rather than each other? Remember when we fought Imperial dogs rather than fighting for scraps with each other like we do now? Wouldn't it be great if it would be like in good, old days?". So, Abbadon had marketed nostalgia and this is why he had attracted space marines from every legion which had made it the largest organized legion. I do believe that only Word Bearers might rival them. Hmm, Death Guard is also doing quite well, because it is all about being stagnant and accepting one's fate. When your subordinates have that attitude towards life, they are very unlikely to desire change. As for Primarchs, they largely lost their purpose. Chaos space marines do not respect them as they did before. Also, power creep was immense and now chaos space marine is a match for a Primarch. It is truly a grim dark universe where even Primarchs aren't considered OP anymore.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
a bunch of independant warbands making common purpose temporarily due to a personality cult around their primarch getting off his duff does not a legion make

No a thousands strong force of space marines following their gene father obviously isn't a legion.

Obviously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well said. Even the Night lords can reunite from time to time as shown in Throne of Lies.

Personally I think most of the "legions don't exist anymore " stuff just comes from loyalists players who just need an excuse for gw making heretics inferior. It's obviously not supported by the lore.

except when people talk about the legions they're not saying "ohh these guys never get together en masse" rather they're talking about a unified command structure, logistics chain etc. if a handfull of nightlords warbands get together, there's not likely to be a offical chain of command, instead the various warband leaders will just agree to cooperate.... until the inevitable betrayals

Word Bearers have their own supply and even dark mechanicus worlds. What would you call that?

And of course no Imperial forces EVER fight each other. (Cough cough all the fething time).

the word bearers are notred as an exception and one of the few legions that has stayed coherant, that doesn't mean they all have most have splintered. yet again there's no coherant chain of command.

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
a bunch of independant warbands making common purpose temporarily due to a personality cult around their primarch getting off his duff does not a legion make

No a thousands strong force of space marines following their gene father obviously isn't a legion.

Obviously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well said. Even the Night lords can reunite from time to time as shown in Throne of Lies.

Personally I think most of the "legions don't exist anymore " stuff just comes from loyalists players who just need an excuse for gw making heretics inferior. It's obviously not supported by the lore.

except when people talk about the legions they're not saying "ohh these guys never get together en masse" rather they're talking about a unified command structure, logistics chain etc. if a handfull of nightlords warbands get together, there's not likely to be a offical chain of command, instead the various warband leaders will just agree to cooperate.... until the inevitable betrayals

Word Bearers have their own supply and even dark mechanicus worlds. What would you call that?

And of course no Imperial forces EVER fight each other. (Cough cough all the fething time).

the word bearers are notred as an exception and one of the few legions that has stayed coherant, that doesn't mean they all have most have splintered. yet again there's no coherant chain of command.

Define "coherent chain of command ". A lot of the traitor legions didn't have the best command structure even during the crusade. Night Lords in particular had pretty serious authority issues unless it was Curze or Sevatar giving the orders. So they probably wouldn't be that much worse off.

Even without one I'd say several thousand transhuman psychopaths showing up in your system would be a pretty big problem.

Csm must be able to come up with some kind of effective command and supply structure otherwise Abaddon would never be able to get something as big as a Black Crusade off the ground much less actually accomplish something with it.

I see the Alpha Legion are being ignored in the "never fractured" arguement. They still battle the same way they've always done, even during the crusade.

Also, the same arguements pointed at the legions, are extra so for loyalist chapters. Much like how the blood Angel's cant even keep good connections with their own sub-chapters, and there being bad blood there, unless united for the purpose of saving the home world to protect the body of Sanguinius, backed by the force of personality that is Dante and/or Mephiston.

Or the imperium as a whole, with grey knights and Inquisition fighting space wolves and guard, or the minotaurs and anyone else. Or the dark Angel's and anyone else.

But the chaos legions simply cant be set into "raving madmen out for only personal glory and anyone else be damned" set to 100%. Even the CSM codex has quotes from World Eater commanders giving coherent and sound orders during battle. And they're the poster boys for "raving madmen".

 LordOfWar wrote:
I see the Alpha Legion are being ignored in the "never fractured" arguement. They still battle the same way they've always done, even during the crusade.

Also, the same arguements pointed at the legions, are extra so for loyalist chapters. Much like how the blood Angel's cant even keep good connections with their own sub-chapters, and there being bad blood there, unless united for the purpose of saving the home world to protect the body of Sanguinius, backed by the force of personality that is Dante and/or Mephiston.

Or the imperium as a whole, with grey knights and Inquisition fighting space wolves and guard, or the minotaurs and anyone else. Or the dark Angel's and anyone else.

But the chaos legions simply cant be set into "raving madmen out for only personal glory and anyone else be damned" set to 100%. Even the CSM codex has quotes from World Eater commanders giving coherent and sound orders during battle. And they're the poster boys for "raving madmen".

personally I ignore Alpha Legion as they're so "mysteriously mysterious for mysterious reasons" there's not really much we can say about them. we simply don't know eneugh, are they all splintered into little warbands working at cross purposes? are they tightly united and all following a plan of their still living Primarch? WHO KNOWS! so yeah they're TBH not worth discussing because really any discussion of Alpha legion will be spewing head canon etc.


that said it sounds like you're confused as to what I am saying. I am not saying chaos has ineffective leadership. they don't. they have very capable leaders. but what they have is splintered leadership with, for the most part, little unified oversight.

And using the loyalists for an arguement seems a bit odd, no one has ever claimed the loyalist legions still exist

While I agree with some that Chaos don't NEED Primaris, from a fluff perspective it is odd that none have been corrupted.
EVENTUALLY a chapter might go Renegade. And if somehow Cawl installed a fail-safe to prevent this, they why the heck to GKs not have Primaris either? Seems like a natural fit to have incorruptible super Marines join the ranks of GKs

-

 Galef wrote:
While I agree with some that Chaos don't NEED Primaris, from a fluff perspective it is odd that none have been corrupted.
EVENTUALLY a chapter might go Renegade. And if somehow Cawl installed a fail-safe to prevent this, they why the heck to GKs not have Primaris either? Seems like a natural fit to have incorruptible super Marines join the ranks of GKs

-

I like the idea that Cawl's "fail safe" is a cortex bomb, lodged somewhere under the medulla. If it detects Chaos taint, BOOM!

 Octopoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:
While I agree with some that Chaos don't NEED Primaris, from a fluff perspective it is odd that none have been corrupted.
EVENTUALLY a chapter might go Renegade. And if somehow Cawl installed a fail-safe to prevent this, they why the heck to GKs not have Primaris either? Seems like a natural fit to have incorruptible super Marines join the ranks of GKs

-

I like the idea that Cawl's "fail safe" is a cortex bomb, lodged somewhere under the medulla. If it detects Chaos taint, BOOM!

Mad Doc Grotsnik has this for some of the super Nobs he has enhanced. It’s called the Ghazkul Special. You make a wrong move and BOOM! no more head.

Would Crawl loot Grotsnik’s methods?!

nareik wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:
While I agree with some that Chaos don't NEED Primaris, from a fluff perspective it is odd that none have been corrupted.
EVENTUALLY a chapter might go Renegade. And if somehow Cawl installed a fail-safe to prevent this, they why the heck to GKs not have Primaris either? Seems like a natural fit to have incorruptible super Marines join the ranks of GKs

-

I like the idea that Cawl's "fail safe" is a cortex bomb, lodged somewhere under the medulla. If it detects Chaos taint, BOOM!

Mad Doc Grotsnik has this for some of the super Nobs he has enhanced. It’s called the Ghazkul Special. You make a wrong move and BOOM! no more head.

Would Crawl loot Grotsnik’s methods?!

Cawl use xenos tech? Perish the thought. Heresy !

On subject if csm did get primaris (please no) it'd have to be from defecting renegades. It's hard enough to grow the geneseed they have much less something completely new.

I still prefer that csm have less raw power but superior abilities. Basically less wounds but better bs, ws, and leadership.

 Galef wrote:
While I agree with some that Chaos don't NEED Primaris, from a fluff perspective it is odd that none have been corrupted.
EVENTUALLY a chapter might go Renegade. And if somehow Cawl installed a fail-safe to prevent this, they why the heck to GKs not have Primaris either? Seems like a natural fit to have incorruptible super Marines join the ranks of GKs

-

Can't we go one day without Crawl gaking on Imperium's and Emperor's legacy by succeeding everywhere where everybody had failed? Next he will create a device which instantly kills all the Tyranids without leaving his basement and so he will save whole Imperium. Jeez, and someone gets paid to create such characters and to maintain the setting.

Honestly, I’d quite like it if the main jar in control of Cawl turns out to be an urn full of dust that was formerly known as Malcador.

Having a cortex-bomb sounds like an incredible weakness to exploit for the Imperium's enemies. It's not like communications are secure in 40k.

Nurglitch wrote:
Having a cortex-bomb sounds like an incredible weakness to exploit for the Imperium's enemies. It's not like communications are secure in 40k.

As all Night Lords are well aware. Vox scream anyone?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:
Honestly, I’d quite like it if the main jar in control of Cawl turns out to be an urn full of dust that was formerly known as Malcador.

If gw made that cannon I might actually buy some primaris. Maybe. Ok probably not.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Having a cortex-bomb sounds like an incredible weakness to exploit for the Imperium's enemies. It's not like communications are secure in 40k.

As all Night Lords are well aware. Vox scream anyone?

Man, I want to read this story now, where an all-Primaris force goes into battle with some NLs, they Vox Scream, every Primaris explodes, and Cawl has to deliver a report to an angry Guilliman about why he installed a self-destruct sequence in every Primaris marine.

 Octopoid wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Having a cortex-bomb sounds like an incredible weakness to exploit for the Imperium's enemies. It's not like communications are secure in 40k.

As all Night Lords are well aware. Vox scream anyone?

Man, I want to read this story now, where an all-Primaris force goes into battle with some NLs, they Vox Scream, every Primaris explodes, and Cawl has to deliver a report to an angry Guilliman about why he installed a self-destruct sequence in every Primaris marine.

I'd totally pre order the limited edition.

keep in mind not all primaris marines are made by Cawl, just the first generation. many of whom are proably dead by now

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind not all primaris marines are made by Cawl, just the first generation. many of whom are proably dead by now

Keep in mind those were jokes.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind not all primaris marines are made by Cawl, just the first generation. many of whom are proably dead by now

Keep in mind those were jokes.

So many people seem misinformed about primaris that I figured it best to make sure people understood that.