Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Was just talking about terrain and LOS in a couple different discords at once, and had a thought I figured was worth bringing up. As of right now LOS rules in basic 40k are kind of messy, and while some tournaments are coming up with ways to deal with it (the NOVA l-blocks, ITC's first-floor ruins rules) I've been hoping they'll be standardized by 9th next summer. My idea for it is as such, at least for ruins.

1) Units visible within ruins can be targeted by units outside ruins, and vice-versa. Said units inside the ruins will benefit from cover/possibly obscuration but be vulnerable to specific stratagems and weapons. So basically the rules from city fight.
2) Units that are behind ruins, and only visible THROUGH the ruins, cannot be targeted (and vice versa). So lets say there's a building with a tactical squad in it and a predator behind it. You'll be able to target the tactical squad if they're visible, but not the predator.
3) This rule is inverted for weapons that allow firing out of LOS. So basilisks/thunderfire cannons/etc will be able to target the predator but NOT the tactical squad.

I'm betting I'm not the only person to think this would be a good idea. In fact I'd bet this is an old idea and I'm an idiot for thinking it's new. But I also really want to play a game with these rules now...

 cole1114 wrote:

2) Units that are behind ruins, and only visible THROUGH the ruins, cannot be targeted (and vice versa). So lets say there's a building with a tactical squad in it and a predator behind it. You'll be able to target the tactical squad if they're visible, but not the predator.

When you say, "and only visible THROUGH the ruins," what exactly do you mean? If you mean that, from a topdown view, the shooting unit can only draw a line from one of the shooting models to the target model by passing through the horizontal space occupied by the ruins, then that seems like it would create a lot of weird issues. Around here, we have tons of ruins whose first floors have gaps allowing units to see each other through the ruins. If ruins basically become giant bricks of line of sight blocking, then two units within a few inches of each other that are 100% unobscured from one another would be unable to shoot each other. And that's weird.

We also have lots of terrain where one quadrant of the ruin goes up two or three stories. So if I'm shooting a Trygon and he's like, 20% obscured or less, is he still untargetable by virtue of having to shoot "through" the terrain even though most of him isn't concealed by the terrain at all? And if so, just how "wide" is the BLOS effect of that little sliver of third story terrain? It isn't physically concealing the trygon, but does it conceal the unit standing 20" behind him on top of a tower? From my unit's perspective, that unit 20" away is in the same "window" that I'd have to shoot thorugh to put bullets in the trygon's face, but I can see the feet of the unit on the tower. So is that unit considered untargetable because the sliver of ruins that doesn't physically obscure them is considered wide enough to obscure the trygon? Or is the unit that's farther away from the trygon and actually in better cover somehow targetable while the trygon a foot away and not physically in the terrain is not?

3) This rule is inverted for weapons that allow firing out of LOS. So basilisks/thunderfire cannons/etc will be able to target the predator but NOT the tactical squad.

Shouldn't weapons like those actually be pretty great blasting units taking shelter inside of ruins though? Like, sure, you're behind some crumbled walls that keep my rifles from seeing you, but surely a mortar should be able to drop a shell on you from above. Like, isn't being shelling defensible positions literally the basilisk's job description?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're going for?

Wyldhunt wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:

2) Units that are behind ruins, and only visible THROUGH the ruins, cannot be targeted (and vice versa). So lets say there's a building with a tactical squad in it and a predator behind it. You'll be able to target the tactical squad if they're visible, but not the predator.

When you say, "and only visible THROUGH the ruins," what exactly do you mean? If you mean that, from a topdown view, the shooting unit can only draw a line from one of the shooting models to the target model by passing through the horizontal space occupied by the ruins, then that seems like it would create a lot of weird issues. Around here, we have tons of ruins whose first floors have gaps allowing units to see each other through the ruins. If ruins basically become giant bricks of line of sight blocking, then two units within a few inches of each other that are 100% unobscured from one another would be unable to shoot each other. And that's weird.

We also have lots of terrain where one quadrant of the ruin goes up two or three stories. So if I'm shooting a Trygon and he's like, 20% obscured or less, is he still untargetable by virtue of having to shoot "through" the terrain even though most of him isn't concealed by the terrain at all? And if so, just how "wide" is the BLOS effect of that little sliver of third story terrain? It isn't physically concealing the trygon, but does it conceal the unit standing 20" behind him on top of a tower? From my unit's perspective, that unit 20" away is in the same "window" that I'd have to shoot thorugh to put bullets in the trygon's face, but I can see the feet of the unit on the tower. So is that unit considered untargetable because the sliver of ruins that doesn't physically obscure them is considered wide enough to obscure the trygon? Or is the unit that's farther away from the trygon and actually in better cover somehow targetable while the trygon a foot away and not physically in the terrain is not?

3) This rule is inverted for weapons that allow firing out of LOS. So basilisks/thunderfire cannons/etc will be able to target the predator but NOT the tactical squad.

Shouldn't weapons like those actually be pretty great blasting units taking shelter inside of ruins though? Like, sure, you're behind some crumbled walls that keep my rifles from seeing you, but surely a mortar should be able to drop a shell on you from above. Like, isn't being shelling defensible positions literally the basilisk's job description?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're going for?

If a tank is only visible through the windows of ruins like these, it wouldn't be targetable with these rules. If you can see it past the sides of the ruins, it can be. Making blocking LOS with GW terrain (which tends to have a ton of windows and stuff to see right on through to the other side) much, much easier.



Same deal with basilisks/etc, units inside of ruins/buildings would have roofs over their heads to protect them from out-of-LOS shooting while also leaving them vulnerable to grenades, flamers, etc like in the pre-existing cities of death rules.

Ah. So basically doing the first floor "boarded up windows" thing. In that case, you'd just have to define what functions as a "window" for any piece of terrain using these rules. Actual windows would be easy enough, but what about all those harder-to-define bits?

For instance, what if...
* There's a sizeable hole in the ruin's wall that's obviously bigger than a window and the "wall" on the opposite side of the ruin has been completely blasted away. Can two units not in the ruins shoot at each other through that hole in the wall?

* At the corner of a ruin's base, there are two units that can draw true line of sight to each other. There's nothing between them, but the ruin's base. Does that block their sight?

* As above, but there's a pile of rocks that hides one model's shins? That hides one model's chest? That hides an entire unit's chests (i.e. a barricade style wall that's part of the ruin)?

*If we're talking trees instead of rubble, what constitutes a window? Are twisted copses unable to block line of sight even if they physically obscure more of the tank behind them than some double wide windows in my ruins do?