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While I understand that the Imperium of Man has turned into a xenophobic, mutant-hunting, witch-burning fascist/authoritarian/totalitarian regime, is there anything to suggest that it will change with the recent developments with regards to Roboute Guilliman's return, paired with Cawl's technological innovations? Warhammer 40K used to be a setting, not a story, mirroring the Dark Ages of our own time, where everything was bleak and downright dirty. But now that Warhammer 40K has transitioned from a setting to a story AND setting, this means that we can move past the "Dark Ages" and into a phase akin to our Renaissance. Will there ever be a "good, noble, and just" Imperium or a turn back to what it once was before the Emperor fell? Are the IoM and FoC counter parts in the grand philosophical scheme of who is "good" and who is "evil"? I would like the point out though that everything is subjective and therefore opinions can render whoever "good" and "evil", so it's natural to expect a myriad of answers in the thread.

I got an impression from a new lore that everyone was shitted upon and our galaxy had became far nastier place. Even if Imperium is starting to get its gak together, it is at the odds of everything around collapsing. We are speaking about a setting where half of the Imperium just vanished.

I'm afraid to speculate, because GW had proven utterly incompetent in handling their IP. Every word they spout are of a level of fanwank writing.

I don't know if anyone made the connection already (they must have, and I am not up to date on the latest Psychic Awakening,,, it seems to be in the name tho), but the Great Rift seems pretty reminiscent of the warp turmoils during the Age of Strife leading up to the birth of Slaanesh. Now, with what we know of warp gods and their existence, we don't want another one. Not even one born of the veneration of the Emperor. The Emperor, the living one who once was, wouldn't want that either, I'm sure. So even if The Imperium intellectually is moving towards a more innovative and less oppressive future, I don't think the galaxy is going to be a better place to live for mankind.

Just to note. The Imperium of the living Emperor was also a xenophobic, mutant-hunting, genocidal, totalitarian regime... I'm not sure the Empire of Macragge was tho...

 Psionara wrote:
While I understand that the Imperium of Man has turned into a xenophobic, mutant-hunting, witch-burning fascist/authoritarian/totalitarian regime, is there anything to suggest that it will change with the recent developments with regards to Roboute Guilliman's return, paired with Cawl's technological innovations?

I certainly hope not. And from the writers I've talked to, it's pretty dang doubtful.

The bleak hopelessness is vital to the whole feel of the setting, and its status as horror and satire.

40k is largely about deconstructing and satirizing "good vs evil" stories where "good" only wins by being better at swordfights or whatever, and militaristic, crypto-fascist, power-fantasy sci-fi (I won't risk naming anything in particular). It has a HUGE amount in common with other cynical British 1980s genre things, like Judge Dredd / 2000 AD, or Alan Moore's early stuff. It's about the fact that a future full of big cool guns and space marines and militarism would actually be AWFUL, almost by definition. It's about taking the kinds of gun-happy fantasies sold to young boys - about running away from home to the stars to never grow up and spend the rest of your life playing guns and war with your friends in a big space-bound boys-only-club (I'm talking about astartes here just to be clear) - and exposing the comedic horror of that, and our unquestioning acceptance of it, by making the violence and fascism explicit and graphic. It's about the futility of war, and how it's never REALLY going to save anyone, it just kicks the can down the road. It's about the dystopian nightmare hiding in the genocidal "kill all the orcs!" imperatives of most early RPGs. It's about looking at war-games, which, obviously, turn war into a game, and trying to figure out how to make it mean something more meaningful than basic jingoism while still being really really fun and exciting. And it's about lots of other things along those lines.

(a lot of this requires remembering the context that it was made in Thatcher-era Britain by a bunch of cynical, gallows-humour British geek guys interested in stuff like D&D, wargaming, science fiction… and renaissance history and Milton )

To put it really simply:

If there's hope for the Imperium, it's no longer about the horror and futility of war, it's just another piece of media that treats it as a noble and fun. If the Imperium can win and make everything nice again by killing moar people and making moar and better weapons, then 40k just turns into EXACTLY the kind of thing it was initially satirizing and deconstructing.

The absolutely hopelessness and futility of any faction trying to accomplish anything good by killing lots and lots of people (including crusade-era Emperor and the primarchs) is 100% essential to the sensibility that makes 40k unique and interesting, rather than Just Another Sci-Fi Property.

Do you really want "Starcraft, but with miniatures"?

nataliereed1984 wrote:

 Psionara wrote:
While I understand that the Imperium of Man has turned into a xenophobic, mutant-hunting, witch-burning fascist/authoritarian/totalitarian regime, is there anything to suggest that it will change with the recent developments with regards to Roboute Guilliman's return, paired with Cawl's technological innovations?

I certainly hope not. And from the writers I've talked to, it's pretty dang doubtful.

The bleak hopelessness is vital to the whole feel of the setting, and its status as horror and satire.

40k is largely about deconstructing and satirizing "good vs evil" stories where "good" only wins by being better at swordfights or whatever, and militaristic, crypto-fascist, power-fantasy sci-fi (I won't risk naming anything in particular). It has a HUGE amount in common with other cynical British 1980s genre things, like Judge Dredd / 2000 AD, or Alan Moore's early stuff. It's about the fact that a future full of big cool guns and space marines and militarism would actually be AWFUL, almost by definition. It's about taking the kinds of gun-happy fantasies sold to young boys - about running away from home to the stars to never grow up and spend the rest of your life playing guns and war with your friends in a big space-bound boys-only-club (I'm talking about astartes here just to be clear) - and exposing the comedic horror of that, and our unquestioning acceptance of it, by making the violence and fascism explicit and graphic. It's about the futility of war, and how it's never REALLY going to save anyone, it just kicks the can down the road. It's about the dystopian nightmare hiding in the genocidal "kill all the orcs!" imperatives of most early RPGs. It's about looking at war-games, which, obviously, turn war into a game, and trying to figure out how to make it mean something more meaningful than basic jingoism while still being really really fun and exciting. And it's about lots of other things along those lines.

(a lot of this requires remembering the context that it was made in Thatcher-era Britain by a bunch of cynical, gallows-humour British geek guys interested in stuff like D&D, wargaming, science fiction… and renaissance history and Milton )

To put it really simply:

If there's hope for the Imperium, it's no longer about the horror and futility of war, it's just another piece of media that treats it as a noble and fun. If the Imperium can win and make everything nice again by killing moar people and making moar and better weapons, then 40k just turns into EXACTLY the kind of thing it was initially satirizing and deconstructing.

The absolutely hopelessness and futility of any faction trying to accomplish anything good by killing lots and lots of people (including crusade-era Emperor and the primarchs) is 100% essential to the sensibility that makes 40k unique and interesting, rather than Just Another Sci-Fi Property.

Do you really want "Starcraft, but with miniatures"?

It is also important to remember (as with much of Moores stuff and 2000 AD etc.), that it was a way for cynical, mostly, if not all, leftist youngsters to enjoy all those same things while keeping a postmodern intellectual distance to all the crazily problematic elements they represented. The problem with having a disturbing satire on totalitarian tendencies is that it gets hard to keep intact and sellable when it suddenly turns into a hugely popular IP and you have to make it appealing to new youngsters while also keeping your shareholders/board of directors happy... (just go and watch Stalone as Judge Dredd if you should need an example )

Seems like Natalie has already covered what I came here to say. Except probably more eloquently than I would have.

 Crimson wrote:
Seems like Natalie has already covered what I came here to say. Except probably more eloquently than I would have.

Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aestas wrote:


It is also important to remember (as with much of Moores stuff and 2000 AD etc.), that it was a way for cynical, mostly, if not all, leftist youngsters to enjoy all those same things while keeping a postmodern intellectual distance to all the crazily problematic elements they represented. The problem with having a disturbing satire on totalitarian tendencies is that it gets hard to keep intact and sellable when it suddenly turns into a hugely popular IP and you have to make it appealing to new youngsters while also keeping your shareholders/board of directors happy... (just go and watch Stalone as Judge Dredd if you should need an example )

Very good point!

And they did indeed accomplish it extremely well. 40k is one of those rare cases where creative people got to have their cake and eat it too: they made something wherein you get to enjoy the fun and coolness of big super-soldiers and giant sci-fi guns and what-not, and make a bunch of money selling toy soldiers, all without having to propagate the glamorization of war, imperialism and genocide they saw in other games, fantasy and sci-fi at the time.

Yeah, lots and LOTS of people "miss the point" of 40k, which I find frustrating, but… it keeps a good product going. And the majority of the background and BL writers still keep the original spirit in mind, and that's enough for me.

Well you could look at this as interesting times.

It parallels nicely with the reigns of Tsars of Russia.
The civil service is this lumbering beast with a will and momentum all it's own with centuries of "tradition" and "custom" to resist almost everything except enforced by gunpoint.
It was custom to try to make yourself invaluable to the reigning Tsar since his power is absolute and can bring fast and sweeping change if "handled" correctly.

If they are smart, they will focus on the trusted, those that Guilliman has as his heralds of change.
That is why I was all excited about those triad model kits they put out where each of these characters are tasked with major plans Guilliman is working on.

There is potential to reform the Imperil Realm of Man to anything they desire with a living ruler.

ok, OP, ever played D&D. you know how D&D has 4 alignment axises, good and evil, law and chaos?

Fun fact originally in 1E good and evil didn't enter the equation instead you had law, neutral and chaos.

This originally was inspired by Micheal Morcock's Elric of Melnibone.

Now it's worth noting chaos in warhammer is ALSO inspired by Morcook, partiuclarly Elric of Melnibone...

so looking at this, one can tell that the central themes of chaos are not good vs evil but order vs disorder.

Im really enjoying this. Everybody has something intelligent to say

I hope there's never a "noble and just" imperium. merely pockets at best in a sea of roiling mess.

for me the game between the imperium and Chaos is as other have already said- it's a game of Order and chaos. i chuckle whenever the concept of "good and evil" fly around here. it's a funny notion at this point t'me.

seems like I am in agreement with several of the others here, albeit for other reasons than they state. i see the imperium as utterly messed up and violent beyond neccessity, maybe not in the same way as the others here. but the futility, the struggle to the last.. see, that's what can make this interesting in this dance!

to lose the "dirty" nature of the imperium would remove so much from it in my eyes, and boil this down even further than it has already. if i want to make a noble pocket in 40k, im quite glad for that being something non-canon i carved out for myself instead.

I would actually prefer that were would be two Imperiums as lore develops. Like ultrasmurfs were quick to create their own Imperium Secundus, it would be logical for me that part of the galaxy which was cut from Astronomicanum would create their own Imperium and would evolve into brutal, more primitive, hardcore society while the one lead by guilliman would evolve into more futuristic, technological, sophisticated society.