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I'm exploring the Psy-Fury traits and fun. Does this come off reasonable, for cut-throat, deep waters competition?

Battalion #1 with Masterful shots, Master of Concealment
Farseer Skyrunner, singing spear
Farseer
3x5 rangers
Dark Reapers x5 dudes, Tempest L for the Ex
Dark Reapers x10 dudes, Tempest L for the Ex

Patrol detachment of Black Heart
archon & x5 kabs.

Battalion #2 with Masterful shots (legal to take it another detachment, right?) & Warding Runes
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
Dire Avengers x5
Storm Guardians (cheap!) x8
Storm Guardians x8
Fire Dragons x5, x4 FG x1 FP
Fire Dragons x5, x4 FG x1 FP (likely, use WWP, coupled with Webway Warriors. Is it worth dropping either of the two traits to take to save a CP?).
Dark Reapers x3, Tempest for the Ex & Rain of Death exarch power
Hemlock
Hemlock

1998 in points.

I dunno if any of the Fire Dragon Exarch traits appeal, certainly none of the h2h ones.

Is all this legal? Are there more optimal choices?

I did not verify the points, but you habe 2 legal battalions and a patrol. You can utilize the same Craftworld traits across different detachments. In a competitive environment, Marines are the most common army you would likely face.

I do not find Masters of Concealment useful. Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors, and Centurions (with SGT alive) all ignore cover. Locally, all those armies/unit are fairly common.

What is your plan to protect the Dark Reapers? There is significant availability to non LOS type shooting (Thunderfire Cannons especially).

I am unsure how useful Fire Dragons would be. Against Knight armies, they have utility, but I am not confident you will have success in a Marine heavy environment.

The most useful traits I have used so far is Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots. Locally and at the last two tourneys, I have not seen horde armies, so I have tailored my army to face MEQ; multi damage shooting, good AP, longer range, non LOS shooting, and either a strong assault element and/or Mortal Wound generator.


All in all, I do not think the list would perform well in a competitive environment. From my experience, the Marine meta has really shifted how to build an army. I believe a reasonably built Marine army would cripple most, if not all your Reapers on turn one and if they went second, one or both of your Hemlocks would be gone. After that, it is hunting remnants and rooting off objectives.

 Sarigar wrote:
I did not verify the points, but you habe 2 legal battalions and a patrol. You can utilize the same Craftworld traits across different detachments. In a competitive environment, Marines are the most common army you would likely face.

I am a tourney regular, for 7+ years, RTTs and GTs. I play in rough waters.

 Sarigar wrote:
I do not find Masters of Concealment useful. Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors, and Centurions (with SGT alive) all ignore cover. Locally, all those armies/unit are fairly common.

Yeah, it's not exactly Altaitoc, is it?

 Sarigar wrote:
What is your plan to protect the Dark Reapers? There is significant availability to non LOS type shooting (Thunderfire Cannons especially).

I am unsure how useful Fire Dragons would be. Against Knight armies, they have utility, but I am not confident you will have success in a Marine heavy environment.

The most useful traits I have used so far is Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots. Locally and at the last two tourneys, I have not seen horde armies, so I have tailored my army to face MEQ; multi damage shooting, good AP, longer range, non LOS shooting, and either a strong assault element and/or Mortal Wound generator.

All in all, I do not think the list would perform well in a competitive environment. From my experience, the Marine meta has really shifted how to build an army. I believe a reasonably built Marine army would cripple most, if not all your Reapers on turn one and if they went second, one or both of your Hemlocks would be gone. After that, it is hunting remnants and rooting off objectives.

I built this with IH and SM high powered lists I've already faced this last month. The main pack of DRs get Fire and Fade for the duration of the game. The 2 smaller DR units will just lean out of LOS-blocking cover and hopefully slice that enemy's flank. The former tactic works, but what's different are the add'l 10 DRs (cut from their crappy resin sprues, but still needing assembly).

FireDs : Marine lists are sporting dreads more and more, character ones, too. So it might take until Turn 3 to clear screens, but then FireDs can have their chance to show up and hurt em. Either them, or I go to back to using Scourges with haywire, who on average, deal out about 4 to 6 mortal&normal wounds. But FireDs ought to deal out more like 11 or so without Invulns.

FDs - 4 to 5 hit, ~3.5 wound on T7 or less. 11 wounds dealt an average, 14+ under 6", but that'll be a rare occurance. 3 to 7 wounds if target has a 4++. Problem is, FDs are easily screened out of effective range. Scourges have the advantage of being really difficult to screen with the gun's 24 inch range.

Enemy TFCannons get hemlock smote, if not screened, and/or then HD-scythed.

If I go second, and the enemy has 2 TFCs, it's likely I've already lost as both hemlocks will get dropped, and 2 if not all 3 DR units will get wiped by TFC fire.

It's rough out there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Already reconsidered. Fire dragons out for 3 units of haywire blasting Scourges. I have fielded them for a long time. They fulfill many rolls and will be more dependable than FDs, which need a CP to show up anyway.

Battalion #1 ... Alaitoc, likely. Helps the rangers.
Farseer Skyrunner, singing spear
Farseer
3x5 rangers
Dark Reapers x3 dudes, Tempest L for the Ex
Dark Reapers x10 dudes, Tempest L for the Ex

Outrider detachment of Black Heart
archon
3x5 Scourges, each x4 haywire blasters


Battalion #2 with Masterful shots & Warding Runes ... or Expert Crafters, which I've seen great for use with d6 damage weapons.
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
Dire Avengers x5
Storm Guardians (cheap!) x8
Storm Guardians x8
Dark Reapers x4, Tempest for the Ex & Rain of Death exarch power
Hemlock
Hemlock

1987 in points.

I would look for areas to ensure you don't get your army crippled by going second against a reasonably built Marine army. At a tourney, you never know the exact army to play against, but a few things I would consider that I personally see:

Eliminators
Thunderfire Cannons
Centurions
Chapter Master stratagem
Scouts (bubble wrap)
Various Dreadnoughts

I don't think Alaitoc will be overly useful against competitive Marines. They Chapter Masters give full rerolls to hit and they have other mechanisms increasing chances to wound. Also, your Hemlocks have to get in closer which generally they lose the bonus after their first move.

I've noticed Marine players creating a bubble of efficient shooting. It has bubble wrap, character buffs, and extremely good shooting. Then, there are Eliminators and/or Scouts scattered about the table. Finally, add in 2 to 3 Thunderfire Cannons.

Expert Crafters works well with smallish number of shots with higher strength. The Hemlocks actually benefit with a single to wound roll. Generally, they need a 2 or 3 to wound and maxing it out is key for them. The smallish Dark Reaper squad benefits and having ignore cover for them is quite good. The rest of the stuff in your one battalion would not get much return for it.

I am not familiar with utilizing Scourges.

As it stands, if your list goes second, I foresee losing most of the Dark Reapers, a potential Farseer, possibly a Hemlock, and other bits from small arms fire. This is based on Iron Hands and Imperial Fists armies I have faced and the amount of turn one shooting they can put out. Outside of that, the list generally will function as intended. Just keep in mind that it does not appear to have the tools to go against competitive Marines. To be fair, not a whole lot does.

Wave serpents for the dark reapers would give you better fire power, mobility and a way to protect them turn one. Without a serpent, Outside of guide stacking large units of dark reapers just gives the opponent an easy target... I’d rather 3 of 6 in this configuration.

I would argue to just max the rangers instead of dire avengers and the storm guardians. Your second battalion just looks so messy and easy to kill...

It feels like you’re forcing double battalion and won’t really get the value out of the command points with under powered units.

As it stands, if I was playing against this with my drukhari I would rub my hands together and table all your reapers turn 1
with my flyers.

Poster Sarigar, I think you might need to give my second list a second read.

 Sarigar wrote:
I would look for areas to ensure you don't get your army crippled by going second against a reasonably built Marine army. At a tourney, you never know the exact army to play against, but a few things I would consider that I personally see:

Didja miss the part where I go to tourneys all the time ('deep waters' reference) ? Okay, maybe it was not clear that I'm a 7 year GT, ITC, lotsa tourney veteran. Sorry.

But there is the BAO reference in my sig? And, in the larger events, lists are uploaded on the BCP app days before the event, so one can actually see, literally, what's going to show up. At the insane attendance numbers of LVO, simply expect everything.

 Sarigar wrote:
Eliminators
Thunderfire Cannons
Centurions
Chapter Master stratagem
Scouts (bubble wrap)
Various Dreadnoughts

You forgot Invictor suits that scout and bring their short/med range fire power to bear early.

 Sarigar wrote:
I don't think Alaitoc will be overly useful against competitive Marines. They Chapter Masters give full rerolls to hit and they have other mechanisms increasing chances to wound.

Marines will have these character buffed rerolls regardless, of their opponent, so, yes, Alaitoc's -1 still will help.

 Sarigar wrote:
Also, your Hemlocks have to get in closer which generally they lose the bonus after their first move.

Yes, that's why they're now in the 2nd battalion, which is *not* Alaitoc.

 Sarigar wrote:
I've noticed Marine players creating a bubble of efficient shooting. It has bubble wrap, character buffs, and extremely good shooting. Then, there are Eliminators and/or Scouts scattered about the table. Finally, add in 2 to 3 Thunderfire Cannons.

You've noticed ... they create bubble wrap.

I get the impression that you've dangled your toes in waters I've been diving in. It's August, school is around the corner and you just got here, and are dangling your toes. I've been water logged and in the pool starting on the last day of school in June.


From my second post:

If I go second, and the enemy has 2 TFCs, it's likely I've already lost as both hemlocks will get dropped, and 2 if not all 3 DR units will get wiped by TFC fire.

 Sarigar wrote:
Expert Crafters works well with smallish number of shots with higher strength.
The Hemlocks actually benefit with a single to wound roll. Generally, they need a 2 or 3 to wound and maxing it out is key for them.

Expert Crafters will benefit most key, high powered units in the game. It does look good, but an enemy unit is often Doomed. And a single reroll, do do 2 wounds worth? Maybe better on a Reaper Launcher's flat 3 damage roll.

 Sarigar wrote:
The smallish Dark Reaper squad benefits and having ignore cover for them is quite good. The rest of the stuff in your one battalion would not get much return for it.

As it stands, if your list goes second, I foresee losing most of the Dark Reapers, a potential Farseer, possibly a Hemlock, and other bits from small arms fire. This is based on Iron Hands and Imperial Fists armies I have faced and the amount of turn one shooting they can put out. Outside of that, the list generally will function as intended. Just keep in mind that it does not appear to have the tools to go against competitive Marines. To be fair, not a whole lot does.

Again, I wrote thisi:

If I go second, and the enemy has 2 TFCs, it's likely I've already lost as both hemlocks will get dropped, and 2 if not all 3 DR units will get wiped by TFC fire.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lifeistorment wrote:
Wave serpents for the dark reapers would give you better fire power, mobility and a way to protect them turn one. Without a serpent, Outside of guide stacking large units of dark reapers just gives the opponent an easy target... I’d rather 3 of 6 in this configuration.

I would argue to just max the rangers instead of dire avengers and the storm guardians. Your second battalion just looks so messy and easy to kill...

It feels like you’re forcing double battalion and won’t really get the value out of the command points with under powered units.

Model availability. I own the 3x5 rangers. Storm Gs are soft and squishy, but damned cheap too. And I own those. Yes, the 2nd battalion is sort of a sloppy second on the model selection from what I own.

Waves Serpents. Still arguably the best transport in the game, huh? But, also, a decidedly different build and one I'm not choosing for now, though I own 4 of 'em. Further, playing in the ITC means there are LOS-blocking terrain pieces ... the Eliminators and TFCs being the spoilers, as mentioned. Boogie men who know about.

Lifeistorment wrote:
As it stands, if I was playing against this with my drukhari I would rub my hands together and table all your reapers turn 1
with my flyers.

Yeah, void mines are nasty! I did watch all but one DR get smoked on a game 4 of a GT this month by a Voidraven's void mine. Still won that game though (brag!).

However, I think it can be mitigated by parking the DRs in the corner, literally the table corner. Would you please check this, LifeiT? I don't own a void raven, so I'm unable to play it out, but I think a medium sized DRs unit can sucker a VR Bomber to its doom:

Picture DRs or whatever, at corner's edge. The Voidraven can still park its nose over the DRs, and use the void mine. But, that player will likely lose the bomber next turn ... its nose, if I place DRs correctly, the voidraven's nose will have to be smack on a 45 degree angle, facing the corner head on. Its wings fanning out behind it will force the angle to be exactly 45 because no piece of a model can hang over a table's edge. Next game turn, a 90 degree turn in either direction means it flies off the table.

It's nose is longer than the Crimson Hunter or Hemlock, so wouldja mind checking to see if that'd work?

Well, you asked folks what we thought of the list' s ability to perform in tourneys (deep water, cut throat tourneys).

I provided insight and you ridicule the response. If you were so confident in your list and player skill, you wouldn't be posting it on this forum to begin with; this is not dakka of over a decade ago.

Your list will put you smack dab in the middle tables in the current environment. It lacks significant tools to handle top tier Marine lists. I don't think advising that your list sucks and you simply need to rebuild it with all different models is overly constructive, but given your snarky responses, there you go.

Going second against the Marine lists are not an auto lose. However, your list nearly guarantees it, which is bad list design. Since you acknowledge the issue, then you know the list is significantly flawed.

But, given your vast seven years of tourney experience, you already know the list is inadequate on many levels, which makes one wonder why even post the list.

Sorry for the snarkiness, but I kept reading preaching, "Marine lists are nasty" and I am in the choir and I buhleevit, bruthuh!

 Sarigar wrote:
Well, you asked folks what we thought of the list' s ability to perform in tourneys (deep water, cut throat tourneys).

I asked for advice on the Psy-Fury traits and you gave some, some good too like Expert Crafters on Hemlocks.

It was a box/cage I was rattling to see if there's something I missed, new Psy/Fury traits.

Then again, you advised on Hemlocks losing the Alaitoc benefits when I switched them to a battalion *not* Alaitoc. It's okay, I misread stuff.

 Sarigar wrote:
Your list will put you smack dab in the middle tables in the current environment. It lacks significant tools to handle top tier Marine lists.

I disagree its lacking in tools:

1. Hemlocks create a -2 ld bubble, which a farseer then uses to character snipe with Mind War. Careless opponents leave characters or TFC unscreened and the flier gets to Smite. Maybe cast Jinx instead of a 4++ target that is a higher priority to kill.
2. some DR fire clears a screen and the the hemlock's d-scythes finish characters.
2.5 Rangers might finish off a wounded character. 15 shots is good for a mortal wound or two.
3. What's missing are the 3 DisCan ravagers I've used for 18 months. Even with their points increase, they might need to stay as a great gun for killin' primaris.
4. Three Smites Turn 1, with Mind War, and if the footer farseer is aggressive then Executioner hands out more Mortal fun, too.

5. Fourteen Reaper Launcher guns? That'd be 28 shots are primaris infantry, Guided (that footer farseer) so ~24 hits (I know it's not on all three DR units), 12 wounds, if Doom is on, then 18 wounds. At 5+ saves, that's 12 dealt, 12 dead primaris, more likley Successors if they're present. Or 14 shots at a big guy, ~10 or 11 hit. Doom yields 8 or so wounds on T8, maybe ~5.5 without Doom and a 5+ save (if no Jinx) means around 12 wounds dealt. I think there are a couple Dreadnaughts sporting 14 wound stats.

5.5 Three indirect fire Tempest Launchers: they'll yield an average 21 shots, ~16 hit (just basic Exarch crack shot) 8 wound at -2. 2 dead primaris. More if we go with your recommended Masterful Shots, that looks to be a nearly dead pack of Eliminators.

 Sarigar wrote:
I don't think advising that your list sucks and you simply need to rebuild it with all different models is overly constructive, but given your snarky responses, there you go.

Smack dab in the middle of the field is where I almost always end, due to player skill. I suck. I lose most often on my player skill, lack of two-turn chess-like planning, sometimes booze (I am team BeerHammer) and sometimes Deer-in-the-Headlights. Qualities that the Tom Bradys, Joe Montatas, qualities those guys lack.

And you're correct, "Bro, yer list blows, play muhreens!" "Go buy this!" is worthless advice. I agree.

 Sarigar wrote:
Going second against the Marine lists are not an auto lose. However, your list nearly guarantees it, which is bad list design. Since you acknowledge the issue, then you know the list is significantly flawed.

What's your elf list?

 Sarigar wrote:
But, given your vast seven years of tourney experience, you already know the list is inadequate on many levels, which makes one wonder why even post the list.

There's nothing wrong here except your advice was ... I dunno, sorry, but very much on the Captain Obvious level in pointing out Marine capabilities.

Sorry that I've been a jerk with your advice, but no personal slight on you, you only told me one thing and you missed many others.

Still.

I owe you a beer, srsly. If you're ever out in the Calif scene a GT or RTT, most folks ought to be able to point me out, a runt in the kiddie pool. Or you use the BCP app and find my table. There are only two 'Caseys' in the 40k scene that I know of; the one writes/owns the BCP app (Mr. Trireme hat) and me.

I considered starting a new thread, but this really is a continuation of the same list's evolution. I'm still looking for Psychic Awakening trait advice.

I've played a couple games with this:

Supreme Cmd. Detachment - Expert Crafters, Children of Prophesy
Farseer, jetbike
Farseer, jetbike
Farseer
WraithKnight - Sun Cannon & Scatter Shield

Alaitoc Battalion
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
3x5 Rangers
2 Wave Serpents
9 DRs wtih Tempest Launcher
10 DRs wtih Tempest Launcher

Patrol Detachment
Archon, Huskblade
1x5 Kabalites

Loss of 26 to 21 (versus Nurgle 9 Oblits & 3 disco lords)
Loss of 22 to 21 versus Custodes bikes, & trip Calladius tanks.

Both were attributable to my target selection choice here, a too deep deploy there, not quite disembarking to utilize Fire&Fade or such. Still for really changing up what I've been used to, I feel okay about these games.

Having Vect doesn't seem worth it when 10 precious CPs barely exist, so after some consideration, I'm evolving it to the following. Again, keeping with the title of the thread, I'm looking for Psy-Awakening trait advice, for legality and strategy. Thanks for looking!

Battalion - Children of Prophesy, Children of Open Skies (I just realized how good having 3 farseers is! Especially keeping DRs from Morale issues. Will of Asuryan! )
Farseer, bike
Farseer, bike
Spiritseer
Storm Guardians (again, cheap troop tax)
Storm Guardians
Dire Avengers x5, Twin for the Ex

Battalion - Alaitoc
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
3x5 Rangers
Wave Serpent - minimum
Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones

Super Heavy Aux. - Expert Crafters. Then Wrath of Dead or Head Strong?
WraithKnight - Sun Cannon, Scatter Shield


I've been advised to swap the WK out for 3 ravagers in a Spearhead. It's do-able, and smarter, I'm pretty sure. However, I miss the model (it's my dakka avatar) and it makes for a *pressing* threat of a CC monster over the Dark Reapers or if I included ravagers. I Fortuned him last game and oooh, I missed how much fun 5++ on a WK is .

I'd love advice on what Psychic Awakening traits would serve these guys best. Thanks.