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 Eldarsif wrote:

And I'm relatively certain that "rule of 3" was implemented to address balance issues with certain spammed units.

One of the most notable units in this regard was the Flyrant spam.

Nah, it was all spam 1 unit up until that, Flyrant was just the last one.

DE RWF's, Storm Ravens, Razorbacks, Shadow Specters, Tau Commanders, Dark Reapers, etc...

Its sad that these unit, weapon and equipment choices become less because of the no model crap.

Especially when they show conversions and Grandmaster babycarrier exists.

This is the same company that has made weird rules the entirety of its existence. Don’t expect fairness, transparency, or for decisions about rules to make sense. They’re inconsistent and really, not very good rules. The game is fun and cool, but not “good” in the sense that it’s well designed. If not for the incredible models and background, the game itself would not be worth playing. Trying to make 40k a “competitive” game as if it was designed to be balanced and even is forcing a square peg into a round hole. GLHF with that.

 flandarz wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
In regards to "restrictive house rules", it bears noting that GW has stated that Legends are not recommended for Matched Play. It's right there on the splash page for the Legends downloadable PDF.

I dont see anything saying legends are not recommended for matched play.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/

The Warhammer 40,000 Legends page contains datasheets and additional wargear options, definitive profiles that will live on their own dedicated page, enabling you to unleash your treasured classics in open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games.

Huh. I wonder where it went. Cuz when Legends first dropped, I remember having an argument on this very site about it. Very well then. Carry on.

It definitely was there when legends was released but it was also stealth updated.

When they released the flow chart it was accompanied by verbiage that you would still be able to use your models. If they just legended them when they made the switch from index and didn't go through the BS smoke show that was the index flow chart I wouldn't feel as swindled (and wouldn't have the BA or wolf guard bikers for sure).

Releasing the index with options they were planning to remove was a BS move as well. Planned obsolescence is a thing that most rational people have an issue with (literally against the law in some countries). Would have saved me from these expensive as hell FW dread auto cannon arms.

Pulling off the bandaid at that point would have been the fair thing to do. But they put out the flow chart with assurance that the models referenced would be fine so they could milk another year or so out of their old models (gotta sell the rest of those SM bikers before the new primaris ones come out, right?).

It's shady, exploitative and all of you defending it are siding with a multi-billion dollar company intentionally screwing it's customers. I mean, you don't know me from Adam and I'm sure there's some loyalty GW has built up over the decades but the lack of empathy from a lot of you is illuminating.

All of this being said if there were a good reason for GW removing this stuff I could still feel like what they did was for the best interest of the game. But bike characters and laz-cannon + AC dreads cannot be considered a balance issue and with all of the worthless/random marine units in the codexes and all of the rules released thus far in 8th GW is not trying to fight bloat in any way. I've yet to get an articulate and compelling reason for these changes and that's the worst part.

bananathug wrote:
When they released the flow chart it was accompanied by verbiage that you would still be able to use your models. If they just legended them when they made the switch from index and didn't go through the BS smoke show that was the index flow chart I wouldn't feel as swindled (and wouldn't have the BA or wolf guard bikers for sure).

Releasing the index with options they were planning to remove was a BS move as well. Planned obsolescence is a thing that most rational people have an issue with (literally against the law in some countries). Would have saved me from these expensive as hell FW dread auto cannon arms.

Pulling off the bandaid at that point would have been the fair thing to do. But they put out the flow chart with assurance that the models referenced would be fine so they could milk another year or so out of their old models (gotta sell the rest of those SM bikers before the new primaris ones come out, right?).

It's shady, exploitative and all of you defending it are siding with a multi-billion dollar company intentionally screwing it's customers. I mean, you don't know me from Adam and I'm sure there's some loyalty GW has built up over the decades but the lack of empathy from a lot of you is illuminating.

All of this being said if there were a good reason for GW removing this stuff I could still feel like what they did was for the best interest of the game. But bike characters and laz-cannon + AC dreads cannot be considered a balance issue and with all of the worthless/random marine units in the codexes and all of the rules released thus far in 8th GW is not trying to fight bloat in any way. I've yet to get an articulate and compelling reason for these changes and that's the worst part.

The options are in the Legends. You can use them. They have not been removed. Get a grip.

 Crimson wrote:

bananathug wrote:
When they released the flow chart it was accompanied by verbiage that you would still be able to use your models. If they just legended them when they made the switch from index and didn't go through the BS smoke show that was the index flow chart I wouldn't feel as swindled (and wouldn't have the BA or wolf guard bikers for sure).

Releasing the index with options they were planning to remove was a BS move as well. Planned obsolescence is a thing that most rational people have an issue with (literally against the law in some countries). Would have saved me from these expensive as hell FW dread auto cannon arms.

Pulling off the bandaid at that point would have been the fair thing to do. But they put out the flow chart with assurance that the models referenced would be fine so they could milk another year or so out of their old models (gotta sell the rest of those SM bikers before the new primaris ones come out, right?).

It's shady, exploitative and all of you defending it are siding with a multi-billion dollar company intentionally screwing it's customers. I mean, you don't know me from Adam and I'm sure there's some loyalty GW has built up over the decades but the lack of empathy from a lot of you is illuminating.

All of this being said if there were a good reason for GW removing this stuff I could still feel like what they did was for the best interest of the game. But bike characters and laz-cannon + AC dreads cannot be considered a balance issue and with all of the worthless/random marine units in the codexes and all of the rules released thus far in 8th GW is not trying to fight bloat in any way. I've yet to get an articulate and compelling reason for these changes and that's the worst part.

The options are in the Legends. You can use them. They have not been removed. Get a grip.

My Shrikes would like a word.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My Shrikes would like a word.

Yes, options that didn't make it into the Legends are a valid complaint. But those that Bananathug mentioned did as did overwhelming majority of Index-only stuff.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 flandarz wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
In regards to "restrictive house rules", it bears noting that GW has stated that Legends are not recommended for Matched Play. It's right there on the splash page for the Legends downloadable PDF.

I dont see anything saying legends are not recommended for matched play.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/

The Warhammer 40,000 Legends page contains datasheets and additional wargear options, definitive profiles that will live on their own dedicated page, enabling you to unleash your treasured classics in open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games.

Huh. I wonder where it went. Cuz when Legends first dropped, I remember having an argument on this very site about it. Very well then. Carry on.

It definitely was there when legends was released but it was also stealth updated.

It was an inconsistency and didn't say what GW wanted it to say (versus what the Legends PDFs say) and it was brought to their attention via Facebook. Legends is perfectly fine for Matched Play (i.e., games using the Matched Play rules) but is not recommended for Organised Play (i.e., tournaments which may or may not use the Matched Play rules). It wasn't really a 'stealth update' as the rules are in the PDFs.

The articulate and valid reason for removing them is that GW doesn't make those models anymore. Whether it's a good decision or bad is gonna be subjective, but that's the reason why those options didn't make it to Codex and why they're Legends (or just gone).

I ain't trying to defend GW's policies, or actions, but it'd be foolish to say that this change "came out of left field". There was time enough to prepare for the "loss" of these options, and more than ample evidence that they were gonna be "lost". That said, if you got a group that's cool with Legends and/or Index, than you're good to go. If not, you can either find a new group, or chalk it up as a loss and just admire your old models for their aesthetic value.

I believe the line was something like "Legends units can be used in matched play, but their points will not be updated and they will not be considered when balancing the game going forward." which inherently makes then something players are less inclined to accept on the table.

 Lance845 wrote:
I believe the line was something like "Legends units can be used in matched play, but their points will not be updated and they will not be considered when balancing the game going forward." which inherently makes then something players are less inclined to accept on the table.

When legends first released it said they will not be updated and are not recommended for matched play. This was different from what the actual pdf said where it said they were suitable for open, narrative, and matched play but not recommended for organized play. They corrected the website to match the PDFs at some point as this was what they intended for legends.

 Lance845 wrote:
I believe the line was something like "Legends units can be used in matched play, but their points will not be updated and they will not be considered when balancing the game going forward." which inherently makes then something players are less inclined to accept on the table.

Yes, it certainly would be completely unthinkable to play a game of 40K using point costs that are not perfectly balanced!

I prefer not to play with legends but I can see both sides of this. I think lack of acceptance in competitive events will eventually squeeze them out, though.

 Crimson wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
My Shrikes would like a word.

Yes, options that didn't make it into the Legends are a valid complaint. But those that Bananathug mentioned did as did overwhelming majority of Index-only stuff.

You're the one that worded as "get a grip" for people that put effort into models that are no longer allowed.

Martel732 wrote:
I prefer not to play with legends but I can see both sides of this. I think lack of acceptance in competitive events will eventually squeeze them out, though.

So yet again the competitive scene is a pox upon the hobby.

 Crimson wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I believe the line was something like "Legends units can be used in matched play, but their points will not be updated and they will not be considered when balancing the game going forward." which inherently makes then something players are less inclined to accept on the table.

Yes, it certainly would be completely unthinkable to play a game of 40K using point costs that are not perfectly balanced!

What you are implying I agree with but is not the point.

The very moment GW says they won't be updating the points and they won't be considering them for what they call balance the real world impact is they become "less valid" then units that are not legends. In the same way that everyone consideres "open play" "less valid" then matched, legends just won't matter in the narrative of the future of the game.

The way people treat Organized Play suggestions they may as well be Matched Play rules. Look at the detachment limit and "rule of three" both of which are suggestions for tournaments that are taken as gospel for all matched play games ever.

If Legends aren't allowed in tournaments, I would guess that the vast majority of matched play games will also not allow them since the rule seems to be if it's done in tournaments it should be done in all Matched Play in the name of "balance"

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I prefer not to play with legends but I can see both sides of this. I think lack of acceptance in competitive events will eventually squeeze them out, though.

So yet again the competitive scene is a pox upon the hobby.

Why are people so quick to jump on the 'we hate competitive 40k' bandwagon? GW have said that legends will last forever but in an effort to balance the game for events they will no longer be printing them in anything else.

Competitive 40k makes it's own rules and you can still play whatever units you want. No need for the hysteria.

 small_gods wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I prefer not to play with legends but I can see both sides of this. I think lack of acceptance in competitive events will eventually squeeze them out, though.

So yet again the competitive scene is a pox upon the hobby.

Why are people so quick to jump on the 'we have competitive 40k' bandwagon? GW have said that legends will last forever but in an effort to balance the game for events they will no longer be printing them in anything else.

Competitive 40k makes it's own rules and you can still play whatever units you want. No need for the hysteria.

See the post above yours.

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I prefer not to play with legends but I can see both sides of this. I think lack of acceptance in competitive events will eventually squeeze them out, though.

So yet again the competitive scene is a pox upon the hobby.

I'm fine with legends being gone, though. So I don't see it as a pox. The game needs fewer choices, imo. The game also needs less power armor, but that's not happening.

 Crimson wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I prefer not to play with legends but I can see both sides of this. I think lack of acceptance in competitive events will eventually squeeze them out, though.

So yet again the competitive scene is a pox upon the hobby.

Why are people so quick to jump on the 'we have competitive 40k' bandwagon? GW have said that legends will last forever but in an effort to balance the game for events they will no longer be printing them in anything else.

Competitive 40k makes it's own rules and you can still play whatever units you want. No need for the hysteria.

See the post above yours.

Yes but that's not true though, just wild speculation. They make a distinction between organised play and matched play with allsorts of things like rule of 3, 3 detachments per 2k points, terrain features etc.

If you want to play with a legends unit just bring it along. If you're playing a casual game and someone says that they don't want you to use a legends unit then they're the ones being weird about it. Just like if you play someone now with a proxy or your marines/orks on 25mm bases. It would be a dick move to refuse to play someone unless you're at a tournement where the rules don't allow it.

It's not a dick move to be tired of wolfguard bikers.

 small_gods wrote:

Yes but that's not true though, just wild speculation. They make a distinction between organised play and matched play with allsorts of things like rule of 3, 3 detachments per 2k points, terrain features etc.

If you want to play with a legends unit just bring it along. If you're playing a casual game and someone says that they don't want you to use a legends unit then they're the ones being weird about it. Just like if you play someone now with a proxy or your marines/orks on 25mm bases. It would be a dick move to refuse to play someone unless you're at a tournement where the rules don't allow it.

Yes, I agree. But at leas on these forums a lot of people are in favour of such 'dick moves.'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not a dick move to be tired of wolfguard bikers.

See!

Haha fair point although thankfully dakka is not representative of most 40k players.

Every place ive played has its own irritations. Dakka is no worse than locals, imo.

 small_gods wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I prefer not to play with legends but I can see both sides of this. I think lack of acceptance in competitive events will eventually squeeze them out, though.

So yet again the competitive scene is a pox upon the hobby.

Why are people so quick to jump on the 'we hate competitive 40k' bandwagon? GW have said that legends will last forever but in an effort to balance the game for events they will no longer be printing them in anything else.

Competitive 40k makes it's own rules and you can still play whatever units you want. No need for the hysteria.

Because despite competitive 40k having its own rules, those changes most of the time end up affecting nearly all things. That's why. It would be fine if competitive stuff was kept separate, but it's not. If tournaments ban legends, most normal everyday games will too.

I've mentioned my feelings on Legends elsewhere, but to reiterate: I'm fine with them. For now. GW has issues with balancing the stuff they're (supposed to be) accounting for. So I can only imagine what kind of balance issues will arise with stuff they're ignoring. So, my stance is that Legends is ok until it stops being ok.

Wayniac wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I prefer not to play with legends but I can see both sides of this. I think lack of acceptance in competitive events will eventually squeeze them out, though.

So yet again the competitive scene is a pox upon the hobby.

Why are people so quick to jump on the 'we hate competitive 40k' bandwagon? GW have said that legends will last forever but in an effort to balance the game for events they will no longer be printing them in anything else.

Competitive 40k makes it's own rules and you can still play whatever units you want. No need for the hysteria.

Because despite competitive 40k having its own rules, those changes most of the time end up affecting nearly all things. That's why. It would be fine if competitive stuff was kept separate, but it's not. If tournaments ban legends, most normal everyday games will too.

Which changes? And where are ypu playing that people are stopping you bringing 4 detachments to a friendly game?

The only thing that has been close to ubiquitous in my area is the rule of 3 and that is only as a rule of thumb. And to be fair in most cases it makes the game more interesting anyway. But I have played pleanty of games where we've brought 4 daemon princes or 5 units or aspect warriors etc.

There has always been guys who are WAAC but that's their problem. One time I was told I couldn't field my bloodletters because some were on 25mm and some on 32mm, which ended up with me playing someone else that evening. I suggest you do the same if someone has a problem with your chaos lord on bike.

Clearly alot of gamers here do not remember the days where all Characters, and most FW units were allowed with opponents permission only.

This is just more of that.

Legends are kinda like those stupid Create a Character rules and Design a Landraider.