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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
The leviathan is actually a pretty good example of gw's lazy rules writing as the superior loyalist version is actually 6 points cheaper than the hellforged version. Although my numbers are coming from battlescribe as I haven't gotten to pick up ca 2019 yet so if I'm wrong correct me.

Battlescribe is not a good basis for an argument. They're both the same cost and have always been as near as I can tell.

Thanks for straightening that out for me. But it still begs the question of whether they should have the same cost. The loyalist version has a better invul, the ability to be repaired by tech marines, and all the various rules advantages currently afforded by c:sm and the supplements.

Why should the Leviathan cost more because of Techmarines repairing better than Warpsmiths? I'm not saying they should be the same points, but ultimately that's a bad argument.

The hellforged leviathan can't be repaired period except by killing things in cc due to the machine malifica rule. Which brings up the problem of getting them into cc. Warpsmiths vs tech marines has nothing to do with it.

C'mon I expect better from you.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
The leviathan is actually a pretty good example of gw's lazy rules writing as the superior loyalist version is actually 6 points cheaper than the hellforged version. Although my numbers are coming from battlescribe as I haven't gotten to pick up ca 2019 yet so if I'm wrong correct me.

Battlescribe is not a good basis for an argument. They're both the same cost and have always been as near as I can tell.

Thanks for straightening that out for me. But it still begs the question of whether they should have the same cost. The loyalist version has a better invul, the ability to be repaired by tech marines, and all the various rules advantages currently afforded by c:sm and the supplements.

Why should the Leviathan cost more because of Techmarines repairing better than Warpsmiths? I'm not saying they should be the same points, but ultimately that's a bad argument.

The hellforged leviathan can't be repaired period except by killing things in cc due to the machine malifica rule. Which brings up the problem of getting them into cc. Warpsmiths vs tech marines has nothing to do with it.

C'mon I expect better from you.

As much as slayer usually peddles some crap, machine malifica only kicks in when it kills something in melee, otherwise it can be healed as normal.

Dudeface wrote:


As much as slayer usually peddles some crap, machine malifica only kicks in when it kills something in melee, otherwise it can be healed as normal.

No.

 p5freak wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


As much as slayer usually peddles some crap, machine malifica only kicks in when it kills something in melee, otherwise it can be healed as normal.

No.

"At the end of each turn in which a unit with this ability had slain any models in the fight phase, other than through overwatch attacks, roll a number of d6 equal to the number of models slain. Each of these dice that scores a result of 5+ heals one wound on the unit with this rule. Unit cannot be healed of wounds by any other means in the same turn this ability is used"

Yes.

Dudeface wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


As much as slayer usually peddles some crap, machine malifica only kicks in when it kills something in melee, otherwise it can be healed as normal.

No.

"At the end of each turn in which a unit with this ability had slain any models in the fight phase, other than through overwatch attacks, roll a number of d6 equal to the number of models slain. Each of these dice that scores a result of 5+ heals one wound on the unit with this rule. Unit cannot be healed of wounds by any other means in the same turn this ability is used"

Yes.

Is this an errata I'm unaware of? My fw index says "this model cannot regain lost wounds by any other means ". And that's what it says on all the hellforged units data sheets not just the leviathan.

Nope just checked the latest faq. Still the same wording. Can't regain wounds unless it kills something in cc.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


As much as slayer usually peddles some crap, machine malifica only kicks in when it kills something in melee, otherwise it can be healed as normal.

No.

"At the end of each turn in which a unit with this ability had slain any models in the fight phase, other than through overwatch attacks, roll a number of d6 equal to the number of models slain. Each of these dice that scores a result of 5+ heals one wound on the unit with this rule. Unit cannot be healed of wounds by any other means in the same turn this ability is used"

Yes.

Is this an errata I'm unaware of? My fw index says "this model cannot regain lost wounds by any other means ". And that's what it says on all the hellforged units data sheets not just the leviathan.

No idea it's on the version I have on my phone, my physical books atm home so can't check. Matches the one off the GW site from ages ago though:

Edit:
It's the opposite, they did an errata to stop it being healed. Seems dumb to me but confusion resolved.

Gw's rules bloat strikes again.

And it isn't dumb from gw's perspective as it forces heretics into close combat which is what they think they should do.

Which is what you would obviously want to do with your falchion. Get it into combat.

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Units aren't costed to external abilities. The only difference as you noted is the 4++ vs the 5++/4++ in melee, but then the Hellforged gets +1A (for double melee), can heal in melee, and doesn't cover half the table when it blows (half as often as the loyalist version).

Erm.. they totally are. Every single time a balance discussion for CSM shooting happens it turns into *~But Cacophony~* *~But VOTLW~* Cultists cost more than guardsman for a year because of external abilities. Tau are balanced around markerlights/SP. Knights had their CP costs driven up across the board in response to CP batteries. Ynnari warped both DE and CWE costs. Gulliman had to be reworked because he was too strong of an influence on balance and was warping everything that he could touch in the codex. Thousand Sun DP cost more than CSM DP.

These are the arguments that the forum makes about inconsistencies or as to why a unit is worth it to them. That doesn't mean GW went out of their way to make those considerations. T'au is a different animal where markerlights are an army wide thing and may be considered.

If GW had a sense of balance through external buffs then Marines and Centurions wouldn't be what they are currently.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Units aren't costed to external abilities. The only difference as you noted is the 4++ vs the 5++/4++ in melee, but then the Hellforged gets +1A (for double melee), can heal in melee, and doesn't cover half the table when it blows (half as often as the loyalist version).

Erm.. they totally are. Every single time a balance discussion for CSM shooting happens it turns into *~But Cacophony~* *~But VOTLW~* Cultists cost more than guardsman for a year because of external abilities. Tau are balanced around markerlights/SP. Knights had their CP costs driven up across the board in response to CP batteries. Ynnari warped both DE and CWE costs. Gulliman had to be reworked because he was too strong of an influence on balance and was warping everything that he could touch in the codex. Thousand Sun DP cost more than CSM DP.

These are the arguments that the forum makes about inconsistencies or as to why a unit is worth it to them. That doesn't mean GW went out of their way to make those considerations. T'au is a different animal where markerlights are an army wide thing and may be considered.

If GW had a sense of balance through external buffs then Marines and Centurions wouldn't be what they are currently.

The heretic leviathan and loyalist leviathan are used in different armies and gw does price things differently for different armies. That's why space marines pay more for lascannons than guard. Because a space marine is a better platform for the weapon than a guardsman.

Gw have already acknowledged the difference between csm and loyalists by making csm cheaper than tac marines.

Not to mention that that flat 4+ invul is definitely worth something.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The heretic leviathan and loyalist leviathan are used in different armies and gw does price things differently for different armies. That's why space marines pay more for lascannons than guard. Because a space marine is a better platform for the weapon than a guardsman.

Gw have already acknowledged the difference between csm and loyalists by making csm cheaper than tac marines.

Not to mention that that flat 4+ invul is definitely worth something.

They price lascannons different from guard to marines, but they don't price them differently from marines to CSM, do they?

They acknowledge that CSM suffer from a lack of doctrines, which is again an army wide buff.

+1A and half the explode chance is also worth something.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The heretic leviathan and loyalist leviathan are used in different armies and gw does price things differently for different armies. That's why space marines pay more for lascannons than guard. Because a space marine is a better platform for the weapon than a guardsman.

Gw have already acknowledged the difference between csm and loyalists by making csm cheaper than tac marines.

Not to mention that that flat 4+ invul is definitely worth something.

They price lascannons different from guard to marines, but they don't price them differently from marines to CSM, do they?

They acknowledge that CSM suffer from a lack of doctrines, which is again an army wide buff.

+1A and half the explode chance is also worth something.

Yes it's an army wide buff which means it affects the leviathan. Same for chapter tactics, unlike legion traits. And you only get the extra attack on the hellforged leviathan if you equip double close combat weapons and then manage to footslog it across the board to get in cc. At which point it'll most likely be bracketed.

And if it does make it into cc before dying I probably WANT it to explode.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yes it's an army wide buff which means it affects the leviathan. Same for chapter tactics, unlike legion traits.

Traits also sit outside the "bubble". Doctrines are also over-done. Leviathans outside IH don't really benefit. When CSM get better traits (if, I suppose) the gap closes quite a bit.

And you only get the extra attack on the hellforged leviathan if you equip double close combat weapons and then manage to footslog it across the board to get in cc. At which point it'll most likely be bracketed.

And if it does make it into cc before dying I probably WANT it to explode.

Yes, but that is the beside the point. You're rationalizing the benefit of the trade-off. Whether or not the hellforged should be cheaper is debatable (and we should not forget it heals in combat).

It heals in combat, but with a worse invuln, worse strats, and no way of healing till it gets there, it's not gonna make it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yes it's an army wide buff which means it affects the leviathan. Same for chapter tactics, unlike legion traits.

Traits also sit outside the "bubble". Doctrines are also over-done. Leviathans outside IH don't really benefit. When CSM get better traits (if, I suppose) the gap closes quite a bit.

And you only get the extra attack on the hellforged leviathan if you equip double close combat weapons and then manage to footslog it across the board to get in cc. At which point it'll most likely be bracketed.

And if it does make it into cc before dying I probably WANT it to explode.

Yes, but that is the beside the point. You're rationalizing the benefit of the trade-off. Whether or not the hellforged should be cheaper is debatable (and we should not forget it heals in combat).

I don't think the hellforged should be cheaper I think the loyalist version should be more expensive. They're both already pretty cheap for what they do.

And do you actually think an ability that requires you to get into cc is as useful as a 4+ invul?

I was just trying to point out that giving two units with different abilities in different armies with access to different buffs/strategems the same cost is lazy on gw's part.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It heals in combat, but with a worse invuln, worse strats, and no way of healing till it gets there, it's not gonna make it.

Yes, I understand. The same thing applied to a marine with a gun versus one with a chainsword. That 4++ is not quite as relevant on a 2+ save model unless people start taking higher AP (which, of course, marines get free).

Levis with drills smack A.Cents pretty well. If you wanted to run them then a couple levis, 3 melee helbrutes, a couple of flamer disco lords, and some plaguespitter PBCs would create a super durable army capable of taking down fliers and pushing forward with enough to get to combat.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It heals in combat, but with a worse invuln, worse strats, and no way of healing till it gets there, it's not gonna make it.

Yes, I understand. The same thing applied to a marine with a gun versus one with a chainsword. That 4++ is not quite as relevant on a 2+ save model unless people start taking higher AP (which, of course, marines get free).

Levis with drills smack A.Cents pretty well. If you wanted to run them then a couple levis, 3 melee helbrutes, a couple of flamer disco lords, and some plaguespitter PBCs would create a super durable army capable of taking down fliers and pushing forward with enough to get to combat.

Not quite relevant? It's durability is it's biggest strength. 2+ save with t8 means it's getting a 2+ save against most massed low strength fire which is going to be wounding on 5s at best and usually 6s. If you try higher strength and ap but lower vof weapons then that 4+ invul kicks in and t8 is still there meaning even lascannons are wounding on 3s. Throw duty eternal on it and park a tech marine next to it and it can pretty well be guaranteed to be pumping out 20 s7 ap-2 d2 shots hitting on 2s for the whole game. And yes all loyalist marines get better ap for free including the leviathan.

Meanwhile you want csm to march across the board soaking up fire and getting bracketed or destroyed.

As much as I hate it shooting is far stronger than combat in 8th. There's a reason everyone takes leviathans with storm/butcher cannons. And in that form the loyalist version is far superior.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It heals in combat, but with a worse invuln, worse strats, and no way of healing till it gets there, it's not gonna make it.

Yes, I understand. The same thing applied to a marine with a gun versus one with a chainsword. That 4++ is not quite as relevant on a 2+ save model unless people start taking higher AP (which, of course, marines get free).

Levis with drills smack A.Cents pretty well. If you wanted to run them then a couple levis, 3 melee helbrutes, a couple of flamer disco lords, and some plaguespitter PBCs would create a super durable army capable of taking down fliers and pushing forward with enough to get to combat.

Not quite relevant? It's durability is it's biggest strength. 2+ save with t8 means it's getting a 2+ save against most massed low strength fire which is going to be wounding on 5s at best and usually 6s. If you try higher strength and ap but lower vof weapons then that 4+ invul kicks in and t8 is still there meaning even lascannons are wounding on 3s. Throw duty eternal on it and park a tech marine next to it and it can pretty well be guaranteed to be pumping out 20 s7 ap-2 d2 shots hitting on 2s for the whole game. And yes all loyalist marines get better ap for free including the leviathan.

Meanwhile you want csm to march across the board soaking up fire and getting bracketed or destroyed.

As much as I hate it shooting is far stronger than combat in 8th. There's a reason everyone takes leviathans with storm/butcher cannons. And in that form the loyalist version is far superior.

But then you're talking about another ~60 points and regular CP spend. A Storm Cannon hitting a 4++ Levi does 6.6 damage and 8.8 to one with a 5++ - you're bracketed either way. And the only way something like that would work is if you have enough to get into their face early while the dreadnoughts hoof it.

I'm not making a claim to viability of lists and marines are clearly stupid strong right now, so I don't think it's a good practice to muse on their power level versus others at the moment.

Storm Cannon Levis are often hampered, in my experience, by terrain, low movement, and short range. There's more to the game than math.

Considering like 95% of the index entries are just copy paste to legends, I'll just keep using my index stuff there. Honestly pointing out they stealth removed something is a lot like saying GW are sneaky, if you haven't figured that out yet you;re late to the game.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It heals in combat, but with a worse invuln, worse strats, and no way of healing till it gets there, it's not gonna make it.

Yes, I understand. The same thing applied to a marine with a gun versus one with a chainsword. That 4++ is not quite as relevant on a 2+ save model unless people start taking higher AP (which, of course, marines get free).

Levis with drills smack A.Cents pretty well. If you wanted to run them then a couple levis, 3 melee helbrutes, a couple of flamer disco lords, and some plaguespitter PBCs would create a super durable army capable of taking down fliers and pushing forward with enough to get to combat.

Not quite relevant? It's durability is it's biggest strength. 2+ save with t8 means it's getting a 2+ save against most massed low strength fire which is going to be wounding on 5s at best and usually 6s. If you try higher strength and ap but lower vof weapons then that 4+ invul kicks in and t8 is still there meaning even lascannons are wounding on 3s. Throw duty eternal on it and park a tech marine next to it and it can pretty well be guaranteed to be pumping out 20 s7 ap-2 d2 shots hitting on 2s for the whole game. And yes all loyalist marines get better ap for free including the leviathan.

Meanwhile you want csm to march across the board soaking up fire and getting bracketed or destroyed.

As much as I hate it shooting is far stronger than combat in 8th. There's a reason everyone takes leviathans with storm/butcher cannons. And in that form the loyalist version is far superior.

But then you're talking about another ~60 points and regular CP spend. A Storm Cannon hitting a 4++ Levi does 6.6 damage and 8.8 to one with a 5++ - you're bracketed either way. And the only way something like that would work is if you have enough to get into their face early while the dreadnoughts hoof it.

I'm not making a claim to viability of lists and marines are clearly stupid strong right now, so I don't think it's a good practice to muse on their power level versus others at the moment.

Storm Cannon Levis are often hampered, in my experience, by terrain, low movement, and short range. There's more to the game than math.

I'm not talking about one vs the other I'm comparing their survivability. The loyalist version is super tough.

We're not talking about the same thing anymore. Later.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm not talking about one vs the other I'm comparing their survivability. The loyalist version is super tough.

We're not talking about the same thing anymore. Later.

We've come full circle. Super durable, because of external abilities which won't be factored into the cost...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm not talking about one vs the other I'm comparing their survivability. The loyalist version is super tough.

We're not talking about the same thing anymore. Later.

We've come full circle. Super durable, because of external abilities which won't be factored into the cost...

Internal abilities like a superior invul and the ability to be repaired. If going from a 5+ to a 4+ invul isn't worth anything then why is one of knights best strategems one that does exactly that? And external abilities should be factored in when the units are being used by different armies with different codexes.

Damn it. Every time I think I'm out you pull me back in.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm not talking about one vs the other I'm comparing their survivability. The loyalist version is super tough.

We're not talking about the same thing anymore. Later.

We've come full circle. Super durable, because of external abilities which won't be factored into the cost...

External abilities absolutely should be factored into the cost of a unit in some cases. External abilities that are themselves abilities of other models or units shouldn't be, so the ability to repair Leviathans should be factored into the cost of whatever is doing the repairing. But things like Duty Eternal should influence the cost of units that can make use of it, especially with the way that strat in particular works as it has varying returns depending on the durability of the unit using it. That's all quite apart from the fact that one of the two Dreads is clearly better than the other, yet the points say the opposite.

Slipspace wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm not talking about one vs the other I'm comparing their survivability. The loyalist version is super tough.

We're not talking about the same thing anymore. Later.

We've come full circle. Super durable, because of external abilities which won't be factored into the cost...

External abilities absolutely should be factored into the cost of a unit in some cases. External abilities that are themselves abilities of other models or units shouldn't be, so the ability to repair Leviathans should be factored into the cost of whatever is doing the repairing. But things like Duty Eternal should influence the cost of units that can make use of it, especially with the way that strat in particular works as it has varying returns depending on the durability of the unit using it. That's all quite apart from the fact that one of the two Dreads is clearly better than the other, yet the points say the opposite.

I understand your view in that the onus is on the enabler to carry the burden of the points (techmarine here), however repairing 3 wounds on a rhino is worth less than 3 wounds on a leviathan, which then makes it hard to work out how much that ability to repair should clock in at.

Here's a concept. How about duty eternal costs more cp for dreadnoughts with 10 or more wounds like rotate ion shields costs more for castellans? Helps with part of the issue at least.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm not talking about one vs the other I'm comparing their survivability. The loyalist version is super tough.

We're not talking about the same thing anymore. Later.

We've come full circle. Super durable, because of external abilities which won't be factored into the cost...

Internal abilities like a superior invul and the ability to be repaired. If going from a 5+ to a 4+ invul isn't worth anything then why is one of knights best strategems one that does exactly that? And external abilities should be factored in when the units are being used by different armies with different codexes.

Damn it. Every time I think I'm out you pull me back in.

I'm not saying the 4++ isn't valuable. I'm saying there are abilities that defray the difference - a little. Any additional difference is not going to be some large point drop that makes a difference in a list across one or two levis.

The really crazy stuff is in the double repairs and duty eternal.

Why would you factor an external ability into cost if the player might never use or get to use it? Why pay a tax for techmarine repair if you take no techmarines?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm not talking about one vs the other I'm comparing their survivability. The loyalist version is super tough.

We're not talking about the same thing anymore. Later.

We've come full circle. Super durable, because of external abilities which won't be factored into the cost...

Internal abilities like a superior invul and the ability to be repaired. If going from a 5+ to a 4+ invul isn't worth anything then why is one of knights best strategems one that does exactly that? And external abilities should be factored in when the units are being used by different armies with different codexes.

Damn it. Every time I think I'm out you pull me back in.

I'm not saying the 4++ isn't valuable. I'm saying there are abilities that defray the difference - a little. Any additional difference is not going to be some large point drop that makes a difference in a list across one or two levis.

The really crazy stuff is in the double repairs and duty eternal.

Why would you factor an external ability into cost if the player might never use or get to use it? Why pay a tax for techmarine repair if you take no techmarines?

That's why I suggested increasing the cost of duty eternal when used on dreadnoughts with 10 or more wounds.

And every chapter gets doctrines and chapter tactics for free.

basically conditioonally pricing, as has happened allready with certain weapons of AM beeing costed higher for higher BS?

Yeah that would be an improvement.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

That's why I suggested increasing the cost of duty eternal when used on dreadnoughts with 10 or more wounds.

And every chapter gets doctrines and chapter tactics for free.

I don't disagree, but that may put it out of reach for normal dreads. I would say 1CP for a model with 8 wounds or less and 2CP above that, but it'd be a long time before GW does a balance like that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

That's why I suggested increasing the cost of duty eternal when used on dreadnoughts with 10 or more wounds.

And every chapter gets doctrines and chapter tactics for free.

I don't disagree, but that may put it out of reach for normal dreads. I would say 1CP for a model with 8 wounds or less and 2CP above that, but it'd be a long time before GW does a balance like that.

Finally we agree on something. You're right though. Probably won't happen until the next big faq.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm not talking about one vs the other I'm comparing their survivability. The loyalist version is super tough.

We're not talking about the same thing anymore. Later.

We've come full circle. Super durable, because of external abilities which won't be factored into the cost...

Internal abilities like a superior invul and the ability to be repaired. If going from a 5+ to a 4+ invul isn't worth anything then why is one of knights best strategems one that does exactly that? And external abilities should be factored in when the units are being used by different armies with different codexes.

Damn it. Every time I think I'm out you pull me back in.

I'm not saying the 4++ isn't valuable. I'm saying there are abilities that defray the difference - a little. Any additional difference is not going to be some large point drop that makes a difference in a list across one or two levis.

The really crazy stuff is in the double repairs and duty eternal.

Why would you factor an external ability into cost if the player might never use or get to use it? Why pay a tax for techmarine repair if you take no techmarines?

I think them nerfing the double repair to not let you repair the same vehicle twice was a good change to the IH the amount of repairs they could do to a leviathan pre-faq was way to strong.