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If you elect to roll for Fractured Personality and get the same result on both d6, do you get that one ability or no ability at all? I would be grateful for distinctions between RAI and RAW responses.

Follow up, the rule says this action is undertaken before the battle (though it does not say before the game). Are you permitted to spend the usual reroll CP on one of the die?

sieGermans wrote:
If you elect to roll for Fractured Personality and get the same result on both d6, do you get that one ability or no ability at all? I would be grateful for distinctions between RAI and RAW responses.

Follow up, the rule says this action is undertaken before the battle (though it does not say before the game). Are you permitted to spend the usual reroll CP on one of the die?

The rule for Fractured Personality literally states "(duplicate results have no effect)".

If you're using the Matched Play rules, the "Limits of Command" rule applies as normal.

As per my signature "My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective."

"duplicate results have no effect" is ambiguous.
It is possible to interpret the sentence as indicating to two mutually exclusive scenarios, neither of which are More Right than the other.
Because GW and the English language are both Like That (TM).

In this case, the problem centers on the definition of 'duplicate', which might refer to both instances in a pair (in which case neither provide a benefit) or to only the second instance (in which case the first instance provides its benefit).

Talk to your opponent / the TO.

Maethbalnane wrote:
"duplicate results have no effect" is ambiguous.
It is possible to interpret the sentence as indicating to two mutually exclusive scenarios, neither of which are More Right than the other.
Because GW and the English language are both Like That (TM).

In this case, the problem centers on the definition of 'duplicate', which might refer to both instances in a pair (in which case neither provide a benefit) or to only the second instance (in which case the first instance provides its benefit).

Talk to your opponent / the TO.

It isn't ambiguous. "Duplicate" refers to the 2nd roll being a duplicate of the first. If it meant that rolling doubles had no effect, it would say as such.

Dictionary.com wrote:duplicate[ noun, adjective doo-pli-kit ]

1. a copy exactly like an original.

2. anything corresponding in all respects to something else.

If using the first definition, only the 2nd roll is a duplicate.

If using the 2nd definition, both rolls are duplicates (of each other).

Duplicate means a copy of something else. That would presume there was an original to copy. So I always read the rule as you got the first roll of the power, but not the second. I believe you roll one at a time. Which I why I would argue the second roll to be the copy.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Duplicate means a copy of something else. That would presume there was an original to copy. So I always read the rule as you got the first roll of the power, but not the second. I believe you roll one at a time. Which I why I would argue the second roll to be the copy.

That is one possible definition of 'duplicate'.

It is also the interpretation I would use at the table.

But, as shown above, it is not the only possible definition, and thus not the only correct interpretation.

Maethbalnane wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Duplicate means a copy of something else. That would presume there was an original to copy. So I always read the rule as you got the first roll of the power, but not the second. I believe you roll one at a time. Which I why I would argue the second roll to be the copy.

That is one possible definition of 'duplicate'.

It is also the interpretation I would use at the table.

But, as shown above, it is not the only possible definition, and thus not the only correct interpretation.

Context matters. This isn't a generic literary debate. This is a tabletop gaming situation. The first definition is almost certainly the correct one with only the second roll counting as a duplicate. I don't think this is ambiguous enough to be an actual issue outside the particularly nit-picky bounds of a rules forum.

Sorry, now I’m getting confused by the answers. BCB, I thought your first answer was confirming “no ability” on duplicate rolls, but then your later response makes me think I misread you.

I mean, some of the abilities could be read to stack, hence why specifying to ignore duplicates and have only the first effect makes sense.

Or it could be a risk/reward thing where you have a 1/6 chance of getting nothing, which could make sense too?

I would love the first interpretation, but I want to make sure I’m playing by the rules.

(Sorry, BCB, I have signatures disabled)

sieGermans wrote:
Sorry, now I’m getting confused by the answers. BCB, I thought your first answer was confirming “no ability” on duplicate rolls, but then your later response makes me think I misread you.

I mean, some of the abilities could be read to stack, hence why specifying to ignore duplicates and have only the first effect makes sense.

Or it could be a risk/reward thing where you have a 1/6 chance of getting nothing, which could make sense too?

I would love the first interpretation, but I want to make sure I’m playing by the rules.

(Sorry, BCB, I have signatures disabled)

If you roll a double you only get a single power instead of two powers. The second, duplicate roll has no effect.

Something people forget in this game is that you are supposed to roll dice one at a time. So if you are rolling the "proper" way of doing it is:
Roll one D6, apply the result to your model, roll a second D6, apply the result to your model. If the second roll is the same as the first the model only gets one ability that does not stack.

 KingGarland wrote:
Something people forget in this game is that you are supposed to roll dice one at a time. So if you are rolling the "proper" way of doing it is:
Roll one D6, apply the result to your model, roll a second D6, apply the result to your model. If the second roll is the same as the first the model only gets one ability that does not stack.

100% agree with this.

From 'Tools of War' page 176 of the Main Rulebook:

Warhammer 40,000 uses six-sided dice, sometimes abbreviated to D6. Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the results together. If a rule requires you to roll a D3, roll a dice and halve the total. When halving any dice roll, round fractions up before applying modifiers (if any) to the result. All modifiers are cumulative. If a rule requires a dice roll of, for example, 3 or more, this is often abbreviated to 3+.

Please point out in the rules where it says you roll one dice at a time. The rules do say that you mae your saving throws one at a time but they never say that all rolls are done one dice at a time.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Tools of War' page 176 of the Main Rulebook:

Warhammer 40,000 uses six-sided dice, sometimes abbreviated to D6. Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the results together. If a rule requires you to roll a D3, roll a dice and halve the total. When halving any dice roll, round fractions up before applying modifiers (if any) to the result. All modifiers are cumulative. If a rule requires a dice roll of, for example, 3 or more, this is often abbreviated to 3+.

Please point out in the rules where it says you roll one dice at a time. The rules do say that you mae your saving throws one at a time but they never say that all rolls are done one dice at a time.

Fractured Personality:
Before the battle, you can pick one of the abilities opposite to apply to this model for the duration of the battle. Alternatively, you can roll two D6 to randomly determine two abilities and apply them both to this model for the duration of the battle (duplicate results have no effect).

The rule says two d6 not 2d6, when read in context it obviously means that if you roll doubles, thus one ability being a duplicate result, you get one copy of that ability, the second (duplicate) result has no effect, as you already had said ability.

2D6 would be rolling two dice and adding the result together which is something entirely different. So again, please show me where when the rules tell me to "... roll two D6..." that the dice must be rolled separately. After all if I roll them together I have "... roll(ed) two D6..." and fulfilled the requirements of the rule.

You can roll them together if you want, but you still get a minimum of 1 ability out of it.

Yes? I never said otherwise and it had already been clarified by the others before the (incorrect) statement that you're supposed to roll one dice at a time was made.

Thanks everyone

 Blndmage wrote:

The rule says two d6 not 2d6, when read in context it obviously means that if you roll doubles, thus one owner being a duplicate result, you get one copy of that ability, the second (duplicate) result has no effect, as you already had said ability.

You didnt tell the entire rule. You can choose to pick one ability, or you can roll for two, and duplicate results have no effect. This means you can play safe, and pick one, or take a risk, and get none when you roll duplicate results. But you can re-roll for 1CP.

 p5freak wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

The rule says two d6 not 2d6, when read in context it obviously means that if you roll doubles, thus one ability being a duplicate result, you get one copy of that ability, the second (duplicate) result has no effect, as you already had said ability.

You didnt tell the entire rule. You can choose to pick one ability, or you can roll for two, and duplicate results have no effect. This means you can play safe, and pick one, or take a risk, and get none when you roll duplicate results. But you can re-roll for 1CP.

I copied the entire rule from my Codex.
I really don't think it's a double or nothing gamble, especially since you're already randomly getting at least one ability.

 p5freak wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

The rule says two d6 not 2d6, when read in context it obviously means that if you roll doubles, thus one owner being a duplicate result, you get one copy of that ability, the second (duplicate) result has no effect, as you already had said ability.

You didnt tell the entire rule. You can choose to pick one ability, or you can roll for two, and duplicate results have no effect. This means you can play safe, and pick one, or take a risk, and get none when you roll duplicate results. But you can re-roll for 1CP.

That is not at all what that means.

duplicate results have no effect, means that if you roll 2 of the same number, you only get that one effect and the duplicate results have no effect so if you roll 2 and 2, then you get whatever is #2, and the second #2 has no effect...

Duplicate results is plural, this means both rolls. It would be different if it says a duplicate result has no effect. Then the second one would have no effect.

Lexical/structural ambiguity is a hell of a thing, isn't it?

Two sets of people, reading the exact same sentence(s), have come to mutually exclusive conclusions about their meaning and intent.
It sure would be great if GW were better at writing rules so that we could avoid stuff like this.

In the meantime, I will continue to recommend talking to your opponents & TOs.

 p5freak wrote:
Duplicate results is plural, this means both rolls. It would be different if it says a duplicate result has no effect. Then the second one would have no effect.

No, it means there are more than one possible duplicate results. Eg 1 and 1 or 2 and 2.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Duplicate results is plural, this means both rolls. It would be different if it says a duplicate result has no effect. Then the second one would have no effect.

No, it means there are more than one possible duplicate results. Eg 1 and 1 or 2 and 2.

No, thats not what it means.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Duplicate results is plural, this means both rolls. It would be different if it says a duplicate result has no effect. Then the second one would have no effect.

No, it means there are more than one possible duplicate results. Eg 1 and 1 or 2 and 2.

No, thats not what it means.

Except he is correct. You only get a single power instead of two powers. The second, duplicate roll has no effect.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Duplicate results is plural, this means both rolls. It would be different if it says a duplicate result has no effect. Then the second one would have no effect.

No, it means there are more than one possible duplicate results. Eg 1 and 1 or 2 and 2.

No, thats not what it means.

That is, at best, your opinion. Certainly not backed up in any substantive way by the wording of the rule though.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Duplicate results is plural, this means both rolls. It would be different if it says a duplicate result has no effect. Then the second one would have no effect.

No, it means there are more than one possible duplicate results. Eg 1 and 1 or 2 and 2.

No, thats not what it means.

That is, at best, your opinion. Certainly not backed up in any substantive way by the wording of the rule though.

Wrong. I already explained that duplicate results is plural, meaning both rolls have no effect. It doesnt say a duplicate roll has no effect. RAW is on my side.

 p5freak wrote:

Spoiler:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Duplicate results is plural, this means both rolls. It would be different if it says a duplicate result has no effect. Then the second one would have no effect.

No, it means there are more than one possible duplicate results. Eg 1 and 1 or 2 and 2.

No, thats not what it means.

That is, at best, your opinion. Certainly not backed up in any substantive way by the wording of the rule though.

Wrong. I already explained that duplicate results is plural, meaning both rolls have no effect. It doesnt say a duplicate roll has no effect. RAW is on my side.

It really isn't. You are ignoring the context of the rule.

One person telling another that their opinion is wrong but their own is right.
Must be the internet

I can see it being argued as both to be fair, and a TO would have to decide if that were the area of the game.

To me, I’d say roll 2 dice and discard a duplicate roll (as in 1 of the die)
The way I see it, for something to be a duplicate it must have a base model first.
2 of the same dice aren’t both duplicates as one needed to be the original from which the duplicate was formed.
So if you rolled a pair of 3’s you’d have a 3 and a duplicate 3.

That’s just my way of seeing it however.