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THESE POSTS WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS SURROUNDING HORUS HERESY ERA DARK ANGELS.


I have been reading Horus Heresy books for about a year now, and I have been curious about what exactly happens with the Dark Angels at this time. I know I could just read their books, but I really don't have time to read them with all of the other books I have in line. I have also heard that their books are not the best.

I just finished the Gav Thorpe short story "Master of the First," so now I have finally decided to just get some answers from someone regarding the whole thing.

Do some of the Dark Angels fall to Chaos, and begin infighting with other Dark Angels? Who is on which side? Is the Lion actually loyal to the Emperor? Are the Dark Angels of the 41st millenium actually loyal? What is their status exactly? What other questions do I need to ask that I don't even know I need to ask?

Basically, I would like someone who has read their books to fill me in on what exactly goes down with the Dark Angels. Thank you in advance!

As I'm aware the questions I can answer are that the Lion is definitely loyal, the Dark Angels of M41 are loyal and always have been BUT they think the Fallen would get them executed so they've gone to mad lengths to cover them up which, ironically, is what would get them executed.

Luther lead the traitor DA/Fallen until the Lion came back to Caliban and beat him up but the planet exploded and everyone thinks they both died. Both were in the Rocks secret chambers until Luther was broken out but only Azrael and prior Chapter Masters knew he was there.

Current status is a weird punching bag as the Rock went 10k years unattacked then got attacked twice in a single lifetime.

30k Dark Angels are a funny bunch - there's tension between the original Terran Legion and those from Caliban, and then those from Caliban who follow the Lion and those loyal to Luther...

And then there's some others - during the Battle of the Alaxxes Nebula the Space Wolves were aided by Dark Angels against the Alpha Legion, but the Dark Angels are Luthor followers and Loyalists.

Hopefully not going into too much information or missing something critical. But basically Dark Angels in 30k were led by the primarch Lion El'Jonson and his second in command Luther. Luther was the foster-father of Lion and together they conquered their home world Caliban before the Imperium got there.

Once the Emperor came to Caliban, Lion took over the Dark Angels and led them in the Great Crusade. Unfortunately Luther was too old to be turned to full fledged Astartes, but he did receive a lot of modifications to improve him to a near astartes level. Unfortunately after one of the first battles under the Lion on a chaos corrupted planet, the Lion sent Luther and bunch of Dark Angels back to Caliban to monitor recruitment of future Dark Angels.

This was split the Dark Angels into those loyal to Lion (that stayed with him) and those loyal to Luther (who were "exiled" to Caliban). Caliban has always been a little too close to the Eye of Terror and had a hidden Chaos corruption in the form of Ouroboros hidden in it. Whether Luther was already corrupted or became corrupted later, he slowly started learning warp craft. This together with the existing tensions between native calibans and the terrans caused Luther's faction to declare themselves independent of the Imperium.

After the battle of Terra, Lion returned to Caliban but something was wrong. The planet was not responding the hails from Lion and had fortified the planet. When Lion's ships closed on Caliban, Luther's Dark Angels opened fire on the incoming fleet. This escalated into a full scale invasion where the Lion's fleet bombarded the planet even while the loyalists invaded the head quarters on the planet.

During the climax of the planet, Luther dueled with Lion. Normally unfair fight was turned fair as Luther had been empowered by his studies to the Warp and by the Chaos Gods. Eventually Luther managed to strike a fatal strike upon Lion. Immediately Luther realized what he had done and fell down to madness. The Chaos Gods lost their pawn and Luther wept for the fallen Lion.

Suddenly a warp storm (more information is in 40k Dark Angels novels) struck Caliban. The traitor Dark Angels (known as Fallen) were plucked by the warp storm and only Luther remained with the loyalists. When the loyalists found Luther, there was no sign of the Lion. Only the mad ravings of Luther claiming that Lion will return and will forgive him. The warp storm together with the planetary bombardment was too much for the homeworld and caused the planet to start coming apart. The largest remaining part of the planet was the Rock (the headquarters) which was protected by powerful void shields.

After the battle, Luther was imprisoned deep in the Rock and any knowledge of him surviving was hidden. Initially the loyalists assumed that the Fallen had all died during the battle, but felt that after the Heresy if the truth about the Battle of Caliban came into light, the Imperium would destroy the Dark Angels. Thus they never revealed the truth to the wider Imperium.

After some time, the Fallen started appearing across the galaxy and the Dark Angels realized the traitors were returning. Fearing that their hidden shame would be revealed, they started hunting the Fallen Angels with extreme prejudice. The Dark Angels are so fanatical about hunting the Fallen that they have been known to abandon their allies if news of another Fallen is found. This together with their extreme secrecy has caused a lot of Imperium to distrust the Dark Angels. Some lore indicates that they have gone as far as attacking their allies (Black Templars to acquire a captured Fallen and to prevent the information from becoming public). This is also the reason for the common joke of all Dark Angels being traitors.

I skimmed a lot of details here, but hopefully at least partly gave some new information.

They're so loyal they're traitors!

Great info! Thank you!

Part of the thing is, when the Lion sends Luther (and the PoV character) back to Caliban, it seems almost of out spite. Luther had already reached the point were he was jealous of his former son/apprentice, but had been keeping it in check.

No real motive for the Lion's decision is presented, and Luther and others seem fairly resentful of being sent back. Which leads to them researching a crazy knight order that tried to use the giant chaos spawn (which the Lion, Luther and their order crushed as the first arc of the HH novel, before the Imperium turned up). Kept their records though, which seemed to be an oops.

Caliban has always been a little too close to the Eye of Terror and had a hidden Chaos corruption in the form of Ouroboros hidden in it.

Yeah... the chaos corruption on Caliban wasn't ever hidden. It was very obviously tainted, hence the giant chaos spawn the knights were trying to wipe out and its status as a Deathworld.

The Ouroboros... thing was weirdness they tacked on for... reasons, and something of a retcon to Caliban's story. [Which is of course a retcon to the proper DA history, when they recruited from native american style tribes and wore black armor]

I assumed the Lion sent Luther and co to Caliban because they were good at their job and trustworthy so were ideal for overseeing recruitment. It's an important job.

My interpretation was that when Luther found a bomb which was smuggled onto a ship with the intent of assassinating the lion, he didn’t immediately report it. He was tempted to let the assassination happen. Although he doesn’t o think the bomb goes off and the lion considers him a failure for not having found and removed the threat. He doesn’t know that luthor knew about the bomb. But the lion is now primarch and son of the emperor and more concerned with being the best leader in the crusade than he is about his Caliban routes. It’s often mentioned that the lion had no real sense of empathy and can not sense motive or the emotions of others.

So despite their history the lion immediately punishes luthor and some other space marines by taking them off duty and sending them back to Caliban to train new soldiers.

But it’s never spelled out for you on the book, I think it’s implied but frankly this is one of the weaker HH books, which is a shame for us DA fans

mrFickle wrote:
My interpretation was that when Luther found a bomb which was smuggled onto a ship with the intent of assassinating the lion, he didn’t immediately report it. He was tempted to let the assassination happen. Although he doesn’t o think the bomb goes off and the lion considers him a failure for not having found and removed the threat. He doesn’t know that luthor knew about the bomb. But the lion is now primarch and son of the emperor and more concerned with being the best leader in the crusade than he is about his Caliban routes. It’s often mentioned that the lion had no real sense of empathy and can not sense motive or the emotions of others.

So despite their history the lion immediately punishes luthor and some other space marines by taking them off duty and sending them back to Caliban to train new soldiers.

But it’s never spelled out for you on the book, I think it’s implied but frankly this is one of the weaker HH books, which is a shame for us DA fans

This is actually quite nice interpretation in my opinion. I read the Descent of Angels and whilst a reason for exiling Luther to Caliban is presented to the reader as Luther's internal conflict of supporting Lion and at the same time being overshadowed by him causes Luther to consider letting the bomb kill Lion, this information is not presented to Lion (only to Zahariel, who is another character in the books).

I never quite wrapped my head around to any better explanation to the exile than Lion wanting the only man he felt he could trust to oversee his home planet and the recruitment of new Dark Angels. Your idea gives another view partly supported by Lion's unsocial, and at times, even unnecessarily strict behavior.

I can’t remember but isn’t Zahariel considered to have failed at something. There is an injustice in that another character attempts to be part of a plot to kill the lion on Cali an before they are all made into space marines. Zahariel Stops the plot and protects his friends identity who then goes on to win favour with the lion during the crusade whilst Zahariel goes back to caliban. But this in part supposed to show that all dark angles have their secrets


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can’t remember but isn’t Zahariel considered to have failed at something. There is an injustice in that another character attempts to be part of a plot to kill the lion on Cali an before they are all made into space marines. Zahariel Stops the plot and protects his friends identity who then goes on to win favour with the lion during the crusade whilst Zahariel goes back to caliban. But this in part supposed to show that all dark angles have their secrets

mrFickle wrote:
I can’t remember but isn’t Zahariel considered to have failed at something. There is an injustice in that another character attempts to be part of a plot to kill the lion on Cali an before they are all made into space marines. Zahariel Stops the plot and protects his friends identity who then goes on to win favour with the lion during the crusade whilst Zahariel goes back to caliban. But this in part supposed to show that all dark angles have their secrets

He has some psychic powers and somehow used these to stop fellow Caliban natives assassinating the Emperor. He then met the Emperor and had his memory wiped. Basically he's been manipulated by the Lion, the Emperor, the Watchers in the Dark, other Caliban natives... (and Luther appointed him Lord Cypher)

The lion is a big, spoilt man baby, who treats his staff officers with less than contempt when they make sound tactical decisions against his order. said staff officers understandably have their backs put out, and plot against the lion who's off galavanting around, being played for a fool all over ultimar by konrad curze. some crazy librarian gets possessed by the feral spirit of caliban, and a terran DA who fought with the emperor also turns against the lion. blah blah, thats about it. the DA stories are pretty dull in my opinion.

Perhaps because you're reducing the Lion to man baby which is like saying Guilliman is a child playing with building blocks.

well, now you mention it...

but seriously, have you read angels of Caliban? Jonson portrayed is literally the textbook definition of petulant man baby. hes supposed to be this honourable knight, but allows himself to be goaded by curze. then to make matters worse, tries to murder thousands of civillians with orbital strikes just to kill him... and hes supposed to be some sort of tactical genius. if he is, then its poor writing.

It's hard to write someone being a tactical genius when you aren't a tactical genius. It's the same issue as writing for Eldar.

You're going to have to explain what exactly is wrong with killing civilians while trying to get Curze though I'll admit I haven't read Angels of Caliban yet.

Johnson is the man baby? have you read Ruinstorm?

Literally Johnson is the sane one between him and Sanguinius and bobby G.

It is literally Johnson who realizes they're being succumbed to psychic attacks and advises the others. Bobby G and Sanguinius ignore the lion and make things ten times harder.

Bobby G literally has a temper tantrum in his bedroom in that book.
Sanguinius has daddy issues throughout the whole book.

The Lion in that book is percieved as a big brother. (not saying he was perfect).

But the Lion is by all accounts what you expect from someone who grew up alone in a jungle fighting chaos daemons. Socially awkward at times and albeit somewhat cautious.

I would really like them to get to clarifying exactly what goes down when the Lion returns to Caliban. For a long time the loyalty of The Fallen, and even the Dark Angels chapter, has been somewhat open to interpretation. Now, we can always handwave some stuff, but it does seem the window for interpretation on specifics has been shrinking ever since GW realised they can shift a lot of books from the Horus Heresy series, so I've no doubt the battle at Caliban will be explored in some detail.
The HH DA books so far have been relatively okay at keeping some ambiguity but I'd really like to know just how convoluted I'm going to have to be with the fluff on my growing Fallen army to explain why some are still loyal, some think they are and clearly aren't and some are wing deep in chaos.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Johnson is the man baby? have you read Ruinstorm?

Literally Johnson is the sane one between him and Sanguinius and bobby G.

It is literally Johnson who realizes they're being succumbed to psychic attacks and advises the others. Bobby G and Sanguinius ignore the lion and make things ten times harder.

Bobby G literally has a temper tantrum in his bedroom in that book.
Sanguinius has daddy issues throughout the whole book.



The Lion in that book is percieved as a big brother. (not saying he was perfect).

But the Lion is by all accounts what you expect from someone who grew up alone in a jungle fighting chaos daemons. Socially awkward at times and albeit somewhat cautious.

None of them acted like adults really, but of all 3, sangy was the most adult. He was moody and withdrawn, but that's because he didn't like being the new emperor. I don't think the imperium secundus idea made much sense, but it's the story so...

And possibly, but the lion should know better than performing orbital strikes on civilians. He's supposed to be a Knight with a code.

The DA are loyalists and have always been bought and sold as a loyalist army. The codex makes it clear you are playing a loyalist side even if there’s some intrigue provided for excitement. Has the GW ever switched and army from one side to another? I think it would be seen a huge marketing gamble to suddenly move DA over to chaos/renegades.

Also if they actually did that how would you, with regards to the cannon, deal with the fact that once the DA are out as traitors all other loyalist would simply descend on them and annihilate them. Could the unforgiven survive without retreating into the eye of terror? which I don’t think they would do as they clearly aren't looking to embrace chaos.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
Johnson is the man baby? have you read Ruinstorm?

Literally Johnson is the sane one between him and Sanguinius and bobby G.

It is literally Johnson who realizes they're being succumbed to psychic attacks and advises the others. Bobby G and Sanguinius ignore the lion and make things ten times harder.

Bobby G literally has a temper tantrum in his bedroom in that book.
Sanguinius has daddy issues throughout the whole book.



The Lion in that book is percieved as a big brother. (not saying he was perfect).

But the Lion is by all accounts what you expect from someone who grew up alone in a jungle fighting chaos daemons. Socially awkward at times and albeit somewhat cautious.

None of them acted like adults really, but of all 3, sangy was the most adult. He was moody and withdrawn, but that's because he didn't like being the new emperor. I don't think the imperium secundus idea made much sense, but it's the story so...

And possibly, but the lion should know better than performing orbital strikes on civilians. He's supposed to be a Knight with a code.

You're applying your idea of a knight code. The Lions code could just be to achieve the objective regardless of costs in which case he's following it.

That's not part of any honour code. That's just desperate tactics, something that should be below the tactical acumen of a primarch.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
That's not part of any honour code. They aren't really subjective on the unnecessary killing of civilians

If you are referring to Ruinstorm, then this was as per the request of said civilians as they were already corrupted and new it.

If referring to the DEFINITELY NOT AN ORBITAL BOMBARDMENT then ends justify the means.

No, They don't. The fact that he eventually man's up and hunts curze properly shows that he was capable of it. Curze wouldn'tve been caught in the bombardment anyway. He's too smart to be taken out so easily.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
No, They don't. The fact that he eventually man's up and hunts curze properly shows that he was capable of it. Curze wouldn'tve been caught in the bombardment anyway. He's too smart to be taken out so easily.

He was following the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid.

Why bother wasting days if not weeks hunting. When you can do it in one simple strike?

When that method did not work he then applied the other methods.

Same thing happened in Ruinstorm, *blowing up planet works*. he wants to do same, sanguin boy says no and kidnaps Konrad and causes a massive ol who ha. If they had listened to the KISS principle, it might not have hit the fan so hard.

the kiss principle isnt some sort of objective cornerstone of human activity that must be utilised in every situation.

this is particularly true in the military, its why UAV pilots have lawyers in the room with them, to advise when strikes can be conducted legally, in line with national and international law.

granted, most factions in the 40k universe dont really seem to utilise ROE or LOAC, but still, simply nuking everything, is not the sign of a 'tactical genius.' especially when its to take out a single person.

but thats the point. he's allowed curze to get under his skin by mugging him off around an entire system. curze wants him to do the orbital strikes, to show that he's right.

jonson shouldve known better, and realised that. he shouldve taken a step back, taken time to see things clearer.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
the kiss principle isnt some sort of objective cornerstone of human activity that must be utilised in every situation.

this is particularly true in the military, its why UAV pilots have lawyers in the room with them, to advise when strikes can be conducted legally, in line with national and international law.

granted, most factions in the 40k universe dont really seem to utilise ROE or LOAC, but still, simply nuking everything, is not the sign of a 'tactical genius.' especially when its to take out a single person.

but thats the point. he's allowed curze to get under his skin by mugging him off around an entire system. curze wants him to do the orbital strikes, to show that he's right.

jonson shouldve known better, and realised that. he shouldve taken a step back, taken time to see things clearer.

But then he wouldn't have been able to show his brother that it WASN'T an orbital bombardment. I understand your point but i don;t think our law system is comparable to the world of 40k, at all.

Most of the time the best tactic is the simplest one.

Again, you're not really answering my point. It wouldn'tve been the best choice, because curze would've made himself somewhere else then popped out again after. He was goading Johnson, and it worked. He bit the hook.

He was outplayed by a 'madman' a tactical genius wouldn'tve been. However, at least it stops him being a Mary sue.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Again, you're not really answering my point. It wouldn'tve been the best choice, because curze would've made himself somewhere else then popped out again after. He was goading Johnson, and it worked. He bit the hook.

He was outplayed by a 'madman' a tactical genius wouldn'tve been. However, at least it stops him being a Mary sue.

a madman can't outplay a tactical genius?

Batman and the Joker?

Madmen are often the ones who best to go against tactical geniuses as their actions make no sense and thus cannot be predicted most of the time.

If Johnson didn't do what he did, we wouldn't have got to where we got? and I don;t think anybody doesn't want us to be where we are right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but while Curze was definitely insane, he was more of the "murderous psychopath" variety than the "raving lunatic" kind. He wasn't running around wearing his pants on his head, was he?
One can be a psychopath and still be very intelligent and act (mostly) logically.