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I have enough models to do both options...

the leviathans are great and will be supported by tech marines (a great cheap HQ) and a chapter master...same or the tri preds...all in a imperial fist army.

ender502

Remember the Relic tax you'll have to pay for taking 2 Leviathans.

SM preds are the worst choice of all heavy support. Killshot is gone, so there is no reason to run them. A twin LC razorback is 15 pts. cheaper than a twin LC predator, and has the same stats, except one less wound, and can carry 6 infantry models. As has been said, remember that you cant have more relic units in a detachment than non relic units. If you run two relic levi dreads you need at least two non relic units in that detachment.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Remember the Relic tax you'll have to pay for taking 2 Leviathans.

As taxes go, needing to take a pair of TFC's or Eliminator squads is pretty tame.

2x levi dreads (and 2x TFCs or elmis) will lose you friends and get you labeled as that guy (WAAC).

3x preds and a WW will lose you games and get you labeled as that guy (CAAC).

If you have a way to screen the dread then go with that one. But as IF I'm not sure either is the bleeding edge competitive option. Seems like a lot of people are leaning heavily into TFCs and other marine artillery options along with all the heavy bolters you can find...

Unsure of why the pred hate...4 las cannons are never a bad thing. the comparison to razor backs does not seem apt as they do very different things. If you aren't moving the transport capacity is moot. If they are moving the las cannons becomes less effective. They are 15 points cheaper...which is just another way of saying 2 more lascannons will only cost you 50 points. I don't think there is a better way to get 2 more las in a SM list.

ender502

 ender502 wrote:
Unsure of why the pred hate...4 las cannons are never a bad thing. the comparison to razor backs does not seem apt as they do very different things. If you aren't moving the transport capacity is moot. If they are moving the las cannons becomes less effective. They are 15 points cheaper...which is just another way of saying 2 more lascannons will only cost you 50 points. I don't think there is a better way to get 2 more las in a SM list.

ender502

Let me tell you something you havent realized so far. You dont have to move troops with a razorback. It can sit somewhere empty, shooting its twin LC, like the pred. And it can do that for 15 less pts. I would never put 6 LC on a pred. It dies very quickly.

 p5freak wrote:

 ender502 wrote:
Unsure of why the pred hate...4 las cannons are never a bad thing. the comparison to razor backs does not seem apt as they do very different things. If you aren't moving the transport capacity is moot. If they are moving the las cannons becomes less effective. They are 15 points cheaper...which is just another way of saying 2 more lascannons will only cost you 50 points. I don't think there is a better way to get 2 more las in a SM list.

ender502

Let me tell you something you havent realized so far. You dont have to move troops with a razorback. It can sit somewhere empty, shooting its twin LC, like the pred. And it can do that for 15 less pts. I would never put 6 LC on a pred. It dies very quickly.

I get your point re not moving...it just invalidates your point about troop capacity as a plus over the predator. Yeah, the razorback is cheaper...but it's also easier to kill than the , according to you, easy to kill predator. Also, the president as a heavy choice helps get me toward more command points while the razorback does not.

So, when it comes to Las cannons...(assuming no 4 Las press) where do we find 6 more Las or Las equivalents for 150 points?

 ender502 wrote:

I get your point re not moving...it just invalidates your point about troop capacity as a plus over the predator. Yeah, the razorback is cheaper...but it's also easier to kill than the , according to you, easy to kill predator. Also, the president as a heavy choice helps get me toward more command points while the razorback does not.

So, when it comes to Las cannons...(assuming no 4 Las press) where do we find 6 more Las or Las equivalents for 150 points?

The transport capacity is an added bonus, you dont have to use it. Yes, the razorback is easier to kill, but one wound isnt worth 15 pts. You can get an additional CP, but you need 3 preds (+45 pts) and a HQ (+74 or more), and it takes up one detachment slot. Preds are limited to 3, razorbacks arent. You can spam 10 twin LC razorbacks, if you want to.

If you want more LC you can use a two twin LC contemptor mortis dread, which greatly outperforms two LC preds. The preds are 230 pts. The dread is 168 pts., hits on 2s, 5+ inv, can defend itself in melee with 5/4 attacks hitting on 2s at S7 AP0 D1. Its smaller, easier to hide, easier to get cover. Dreads can use duty eternal and wisdom of the ancients. The preds hit on 3s, no inv, melee is a joke at 3 attacks, hitting on 6s, with S6 AP0 D1.

4 Las preds are 175. A Mortis dread with two twin Las is 188.

I'll ask the question that should have been asked first why lascannons at all in IF?

60 stalker intercs and heavybolters and 2 levi's etc etc will delete most everything.

If you really feel the need for dedicated anti tank, dev cents(hb and hurricanes mostly) or an executioner would be better.

 ender502 wrote:
4 Las preds are 175. A Mortis dread with two twin Las is 188.

A two twin LC contemptor mortis dreadnought is 168. A two twin LC mortis dreadnought is 140.

One Leviathan will kill all 3 predators before the predators kill the leviathan. Especially with full army support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

COLD CASH wrote:
I'll ask the question that should have been asked first why lascannons at all in IF?

60 stalker intercs and heavybolters and 2 levi's etc etc will delete most everything.

If you really feel the need for dedicated anti tank, dev cents(hb and hurricanes mostly) or an executioner would be better.

Executioners aren't nearly as good since they lost the invul. Sure they do a ton of damage but a couple of good invul rolls, or just going second means they're effectively a 300+ point pinata.

Devastator Centurions have a similar problem, though their better save and smaller individual wound count mitigate it somewhat.

And stalker boltguns and even the leviathan are pretty bad at dealing with T8. Especially when you have a decent invul to get through. All 20 of the leviathan's shots only do about 8 damage to a knight on average, even rerolling hits and 1s to wound. You want a handful of higher strength shots available to both start chipping through T8 models AND act as distraction carnifex's to eat fire while your leviathan shreds through their heavy infantry and light vehicles.