Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I've been around since 3rd and I do remember bits of time you didn't see marine releases totally eclipse others by this much. They are literally in just about every supplement and seem to get a new unit every few weeks. I know I'm not crazy in thinking there were stretches of time there weren't marine releases. Even with the amount of sub factions they have.

i member time were ork boyz were brown and had bs 4+.

Marines had allways an upper hand on other factions for releases, however, this recent wave quite frankly is just the snowballing having reached critical mass.

Further GW has gak all common sense, instead of asking WHY a range doesn't sell they just soft squat them via desinverstment cycle, cue SoB, which needed an overwhelming custommer asking to even be delievered.

Quite a lot of smaller factions don't have that support and the small margin that marines had just got consecuetivly larger due to them beeing better supported.

the same can be said about FW which get's ressources aswell which made f.e. R&H probably one of the least selling armies due to them beeing literally 40£ for 30 pts, and instead of realisng that FW more or less got few ressources and had to focus on other stuff, cue bleigh designing IA13 and bam, suddendly the army is on the map again and has customizable rules to boot, making conversions actually pretty common place. Didn't stop gw to gak the bed a second time with 8th though respectively the lack of communication and look now at the threads, more or less consisting out of the 5-6 hold outs and that's it. Rules can very much improve sales.

Then we had the outlier dexes. Dexes for factions that literally were in use for 10 + years. In case of the crons, however, their redesign, i can only assume, failed and didn't bring in enough support i assume. (and to be fair the newcrons are pretty hit and miss and for oldcrons not necessarily a " upgrade" they wanted, due to crons having an extremely specific faction identity.)

This is also why i am nearly sure that we will not see more plastic aspect warriors soonish due to the box not selling. Out of gw's perspective that is the proverbial Blood in the water for the sharks to invest, yet they don't and i can only assume they don't know why many eldar players of all stripes don't want them, because to them that is a market box which probably sell quite well normally that just doesn't get out of shops, ergo they assume mostlikely that DE and CW are not worth the effort.

Marines always had more model love sure, but other factions got some time in the sun without marines being ever present in their spot light. Like ok, the marine book would drop, new models with it, but that would at least be the last marine release for a few month stretch at least and another faction would get a book and new models.

This rapid fire release pace just feels like marines every week, even if it isn't true it's almost true and that leads to marine fatigue and resentment. Which is why I say there was a time it wasn't marines every new releases you actually had to wait awhile for new marine models. That time existed, I know I lived through it. Now however is not that time.

Anyone with half a cup of good sense would have said that box was DOA, most of us called it out here as a piss poor offering and we were not wrong. GW would need a head clearly up own Butt to not see what they did wrong.

I get what they wanted to maybe try and do with Ynnari but not every eldar player plays all the factions at once or is brand new or wants sub par units just starting out, regardless of how " Wow sale " they believe the box to be. So if all they get from that is " Eldar players don't want new stuff " they are royally twisted in how they view the skewed data they put out.

Edit: I can only assume they feel Necrons are at a good place and have no openings that need addressed but really GW take a million years to update or fix any other model line than marines at t his point. How long did it take for them to replace the Dark Eldar awful line ? A long time, Sisters ? Just happened and they needed it for awhile too. They've made and proceed to flesh out new factions at a faster pace than they go back and fix up or add into ranges they consider to be good. Which I guess is where they assume Necrons to be and say Tyranids for instance. Which is where I assume Guard sit at, workable if ancient for some of their kits, most of the Eldar line, and with all the kits Orks got, they probably feel they are very well served but for maybe a character or two, hence the Ghaz model but no updated Ork Boyz.

Anyone with half a cup of good sense would have said that box was DOA, most of us called it out here as a piss poor offering and we were not wrong. GW would need a head clearly up own Butt to not see what they did wrong.

I get what they wanted to maybe try and do with Ynnari but not every eldar player plays all the factions at once or is brand new or wants sub par units just starting out, regardless of how " Wow sale " they believe the box to be. So if all they get from that is " Eldar players don't want new stuff " they are royally twisted in how they view the skewed data they put out.

gw' s half cup of good sense has broken a long time ago.
Trust me, they WILL use it in marketing and use it against allocating the ressources to the spots needed because the Buisness part of the company seriously lacks any hobby perspective.

How else do you assume the desinvestment cycles of the past happened.

Then the customers need to pay them back in kind and cut back on spending to make it hurt for them as that is the only thing they will dig deeper into apparently but I'd like to think they have someone with more than two brain cells to rub together to say " Hey, this plan was bad, we should adjust it next time. "

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then the customers need to pay them back in kind and cut back on spending to make it hurt for them as that is the only thing they will dig deeper into apparently but I'd like to think they have someone with more than two brain cells to rub together to say " Hey, this plan was bad, we should adjust it next time. "

Why do you think AoS happened?

Also the new GW is just old GW but with a social media presence, not even communication with their custommers. just a presence.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then the customers need to pay them back in kind and cut back on spending to make it hurt for them as that is the only thing they will dig deeper into apparently but I'd like to think they have someone with more than two brain cells to rub together to say " Hey, this plan was bad, we should adjust it next time. "

Hard to do that when GW will just focus more on marines, in the knowledge that people will buy them. That was tried with WHFB anyway and it failed.
Voting with your wallet isn't a surefire solution. That only works if the majority is unsatisfied. If you aren't the majority, and play a niche faction that gets infrequent updates, then you are screwed.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then the customers need to pay them back in kind and cut back on spending to make it hurt for them as that is the only thing they will dig deeper into apparently but I'd like to think they have someone with more than two brain cells to rub together to say " Hey, this plan was bad, we should adjust it next time. "

Hard to do that when GW will just focus more on marines, in the knowledge that people will buy them. That was tried with WHFB anyway and it failed.
Voting with your wallet isn't a surefire solution. That only works if the majority is unsatisfied. If you aren't the majority, and play a niche faction that gets infrequent updates, then you are screwed.

Ding ding ding.
Candidate has gained 100 pts.


Preciscly this, add to that snowballing of marine support and you are now in this Situation here.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I've been around since 3rd and I do remember bits of time you didn't see marine releases totally eclipse others by this much. They are literally in just about every supplement and seem to get a new unit every few weeks. I know I'm not crazy in thinking there were stretches of time there weren't marine releases. Even with the amount of sub factions they have.

The Marine release was necessary, the flagship faction wasn't doing too hot and Guilliman was in every list. Marines got a huge boost, that's unfair for the other Marine factions so they need updates fast. Before that Ynnari need a book to hold their rules so they can be more than just a White Dwarf faction. Once Ynnari have been upgraded to have a hardcover book with their rules GW can move on to updating all the SM factions. They start with the grumbliest and saltiest sort first, the CSM. CSM need an enemy, Black Templars need rules outside White Dwarf. 7 pages of SM get thrown in there, is that really a big deal? Now GW moves on to TS, GK, DA and BA. Tyranids, one of the worst factions in the current meta get updated after the edgeboys, makes perfect sense.

Everything makes perfect sense so far to me. The only mistake I see is how GW went about the whole thing from the start, but yanking another xenos PA book in for the purpose of fanservice when not!Marines need and deserve it more? I'd be furious if I had to be playing Dark Angels for a year while Marines got free buffs. In my opinion, it's the free buffs and spreading Marines across too many books that are the problem. If it was just Specialist Detachments it wouldn't be so bad and GW could take their time getting to the last of the SM factions, but because they decided to slather more rules on the rule cake they now cannot.

I played a game against Grey Knights the other day, despite bringing a really soft list I still crushed him with his new fancy rules and Stratagems and lowered costs, he was new but I am happy that I don't have to walk as much on egg-shells list-building as I would when playing against pre-PA Grey Knights. Necrons won't be fixed by PA anyway, the core that was designed with the index was flawed.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then the customers need to pay them back in kind and cut back on spending to make it hurt for them as that is the only thing they will dig deeper into apparently but I'd like to think they have someone with more than two brain cells to rub together to say " Hey, this plan was bad, we should adjust it next time. "

Hard to do that when GW will just focus more on marines, in the knowledge that people will buy them. That was tried with WHFB anyway and it failed.
Voting with your wallet isn't a surefire solution. That only works if the majority is unsatisfied. If you aren't the majority, and play a niche faction that gets infrequent updates, then you are screwed.

Ding ding ding.
Candidate has gained 100 pts.


Preciscly this, add to that snowballing of marine support and you are now in this Situation here.

Whilst there is a lot of truth to this regards the minority factions and voting with wallets etc. the snowballing thing is really getting my goat now. They released primaris marines with onset of 8th, beyond a smattering of one off characters they had 1 new kit before their 2.0 codex.

They then were presented with a sleuth of supplement books, which as the name suggests are optional rules extra you purchase to flavour. Marines are getting more printed rules for parity since it's the same faction split into multiple books, not more model releases necessarily than they've had historically.

If you were a white scars player then much like any xenos player you don't care about the rules for the other chapters, you take your 1 supplement and move on. Until the community can realise that just because there are multiple "marine" books, that doesn't mean all those releases are for the same people.

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then the customers need to pay them back in kind and cut back on spending to make it hurt for them as that is the only thing they will dig deeper into apparently but I'd like to think they have someone with more than two brain cells to rub together to say " Hey, this plan was bad, we should adjust it next time. "

Hard to do that when GW will just focus more on marines, in the knowledge that people will buy them. That was tried with WHFB anyway and it failed.
Voting with your wallet isn't a surefire solution. That only works if the majority is unsatisfied. If you aren't the majority, and play a niche faction that gets infrequent updates, then you are screwed.

Ding ding ding.
Candidate has gained 100 pts.


Preciscly this, add to that snowballing of marine support and you are now in this Situation here.

Whilst there is a lot of truth to this regards the minority factions and voting with wallets etc. the snowballing thing is really getting my goat now. They released primaris marines with onset of 8th, beyond a smattering of one off characters they had 1 new kit before their 2.0 codex.

They then were presented with a sleuth of supplement books, which as the name suggests are optional rules extra you purchase to flavour. Marines are getting more printed rules for parity since it's the same faction split into multiple books, not more model releases necessarily than they've had historically.

If you were a white scars player then much like any xenos player you don't care about the rules for the other chapters, you take your 1 supplement and move on. Until the community can realise that just because there are multiple "marine" books, that doesn't mean all those releases are for the same people.

Lol no, most non special marines (e.g. those with limited arsenals and the same holds true with Chaos) that got supplements, share the same arsenal. and Historically, SM allways got more stuff then contemporaries over time.
That IS snowballing, no MATTER how you look at it.
And in this case it turned bad.
(for the record i am talking about the history from 3rd to-8th not just now.)

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then the customers need to pay them back in kind and cut back on spending to make it hurt for them as that is the only thing they will dig deeper into apparently but I'd like to think they have someone with more than two brain cells to rub together to say " Hey, this plan was bad, we should adjust it next time. "

Hard to do that when GW will just focus more on marines, in the knowledge that people will buy them. That was tried with WHFB anyway and it failed.
Voting with your wallet isn't a surefire solution. That only works if the majority is unsatisfied. If you aren't the majority, and play a niche faction that gets infrequent updates, then you are screwed.

Ding ding ding.
Candidate has gained 100 pts.


Preciscly this, add to that snowballing of marine support and you are now in this Situation here.

Whilst there is a lot of truth to this regards the minority factions and voting with wallets etc. the snowballing thing is really getting my goat now. They released primaris marines with onset of 8th, beyond a smattering of one off characters they had 1 new kit before their 2.0 codex.

They then were presented with a sleuth of supplement books, which as the name suggests are optional rules extra you purchase to flavour. Marines are getting more printed rules for parity since it's the same faction split into multiple books, not more model releases necessarily than they've had historically.

If you were a white scars player then much like any xenos player you don't care about the rules for the other chapters, you take your 1 supplement and move on. Until the community can realise that just because there are multiple "marine" books, that doesn't mean all those releases are for the same people.

Lol no, most non special marines (e.g. those with limited arsenals and the same holds true with Chaos) that got supplements, share the same arsenal. and Historically, SM allways got more stuff then contemporaries over time.
That IS snowballing, no MATTER how you look at it.
And in this case it turned bad.
(for the record i am talking about the history from 3rd to-8th not just now.)

You'll recall that blood angels, dark angels, space wolves and black templars were once upon a time supplements originally then? We've gone from having "blood angels tactical squad" and "grey hunters" being released with each book to just having core units with small conversion sprues. They use far less releases for marines than they ever did previously.

You're talking purely about updated rules which are unavoidable to keep parity between factions, which is the issue if anything is.

Snowballing is stacking things endlessly, please tell me how ritual of the damned & captain lazarus coming out helps a raven guard player.

No, i mean snowballing in the cycle of releases, pay attention:

Marines had allways an upper hand on other factions for releases, however, this recent wave quite frankly is just the snowballing having reached critical mass.

For some editions many an army didn't even get a Codex. Marines allways were guaranteed one, just as Marines allways were guaranteed a model release mmore or less.
This is the snowbaling i am speaking off, it was and is the most supported faction of GW by a longshot.

Supplement marines ARE NOT a seperate faction, they DON'T have arsenal differences, yet (BT were at one point a seperate codex with differences)

my point is, the support rendered to marines foremost, over time escalted. Marines SHARE their models, thereefore MARINES SELL for the marketing, ergo the MARKETING PUSHES mariness above other factions.
Whole subfactions got supplements f.e yet all Chaos legions got cramed in one book (non special ones excluded because that is nonsense anyways regardless.)

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, i mean snowballing in the cycle of releases, pay attention:

Marines had allways an upper hand on other factions for releases, however, this recent wave quite frankly is just the snowballing having reached critical mass.

For some editions many an army didn't even get a Codex. Marines allways were guaranteed one, just as Marines allways were guaranteed a model release mmore or less.
This is the snowbaling i am speaking off, it was and is the most supported faction of GW by a longshot.

Supplement marines ARE NOT a seperate faction, they DON'T have arsenal differences, yet (BT were at one point a seperate codex with differences)

my point is, the support rendered to marines foremost, over time escalted. Marines SHARE their models, thereefore MARINES SELL for the marketing, ergo the MARKETING PUSHES mariness above other factions.
Whole subfactions got supplements f.e yet all Chaos legions got cramed in one book (non special ones excluded because that is nonsense anyways regardless.)

I am paying attention, release can mean literally anything without context, but you're all over the place. I know what you're trying to say but you admit supplements aren't a different faction, they're nestled inside of that "codex marines" umbrella, they're options for codex space marines, but those have stopped and are done. They had 1 stretched out marine release wave in 2019, this is the fastest turn around for a space marine codex but they're evidently trying to refresh/expand the range with primaris.

If they do the same thing again this year, without binning off squatty marines, then you might have a point. But at present they're simply filling out a new range and this "constant marine release" issue people have is because they're not differentiating them by seperate armies or just realising it was a single 3 month long release window.

No you aren't paying attention, again but you probably just don't want to pay attention, fun fact there's a reason why the marine dex has more unit entries than any other.

Not really on topic but to the supplement chat I say; "where's my evil sunz supplement book?" Where are the Craftworld Ulthwe, Hivefleet Leviathan, Wych Cult supplement books too?

Or are only Marines special enough to get supplement rules for their sub factions?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Not really on topic but to the supplement chat I say; "where's my evil sunz supplement book?" Where are the Craftworld Ulthwe, Hivefleet Leviathan, Wych Cult supplement books too?

Or are only Marines special enough to get supplement rules for their sub factions?

Tbh I'd rather nobody did, but we've hashed that out before, but at least you've a grounded argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
No you aren't paying attention, again but you probably just don't want to pay attention, fun fact there's a reason why the marine dex has more unit entries than any other.

Because they've added too many redundant options and not been able to prune them out because of people resisting change, combined with shoe-horning 30k units in?

I think a lot of Marine (and other Faction) units could share a single datasheet, with the minor differences between them represented by wargear options. As an Ork player, the first example that comes to mind from my own Codex is Boyz/Stormboyz. The "jump packs" could have just been a wargear option.

where is my new novhok mephrit etc release.as if one group of a thousand marines need their own bloody book. absolute nonsense. Space marine bloat is disgusting and going to eventually kill the hobby that's when it will all come crashing down and gw will cease to exist. Necrons are just as worthy as frigging white scars to get sub faction supplements but they don't because gw hate them.the eldar are likely to be squatted next year.i reckon all xenos will be gone in three years and we are going to have hours heresy two.marine vs marine forever.

Icegoat wrote:
where is my new novhok mephrit etc release.as if one group of a thousand marines need their own bloody book. absolute nonsense. Space marine bloat is disgusting and going to eventually kill the hobby that's when it will all come crashing down and gw will cease to exist. Necrons are just as worthy as frigging white scars to get sub faction supplements but they don't because gw hate them.the eldar are likely to be squatted next year.i reckon all xenos will be gone in three years and we are going to have hours heresy two.marine vs marine forever.

*Citation needed.

The problem with marines is the subfactions. Because GW has put more and more into them and made them armies on their own, not just a few rules addendums and a different paint scheme; it means that what was once one army is now closer to 5 or 6 or however many armies. They might all share the same design ethos and also share the same core army models; but they've all got their own market. A Blood Angles player might only play Blood Angels. So any marine releases that are generic or specifically BA are not releases for them.


So Xenos can appear undersupported only because marines have about as many forces of their own as there are Xenos armies.



It's a bit of a trap GW is in because they clearly want Xenos armies and customers clearly want them; however Marines just sell so well and KEEP selling so well that GW can't ignore what is basically their biggest model purchasing market.