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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/03 14:00:53
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I was watching a battle report from Tabletop Tactics (Tempestus vs GSC). During the Army introduction it was suggested that 1 Kelemorph is good, but 3 would be a lot to deal with. That got me thinking, how many Kelemorphs can you have and how many is too many. I tried to maximize that number of Kelermorphs and was able to squeeze in 8 in a 2000 point army. The rest of the army is garbage, very small units with no upgrades, but can 8 Kelermorphs make up for the rest of your worthless units?
So, the question is how many Kelermorphs are too many?
Also, how many can you squeeze in an army and still be decent?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/03 14:05:20
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Gutworm wrote:I was watching a battle report from Tabletop Tactics (Tempestus vs GSC). During the Army introduction it was suggested that 1 Kelemorph is good, but 3 would be a lot to deal with. That got me thinking, how many Kelemorphs can you have and how many is too many. I tried to maximize that number of Kelermorphs and was able to squeeze in 8 in a 2000 point army. The rest of the army is garbage, very small units with no upgrades, but can 8 Kelermorphs make up for the rest of your worthless units?
So, the question is how many Kelermorphs are too many?
Also, how many can you squeeze in an army and still be decent?
The maximum you can get in any competitive list will be 3, for 2 reasons: first almost every competitive event uses the "rule of 3" for non-troops squads, and second you can only have 1 keler per detachment due to the GSC's special rules and a 3 detachment limit is also standard.
I think 1-2 is the sweet spot, personally. Past that point and you hit diminishing returns of "expensive enough infantry/characters for you to pop up and smack with 12" range guns."
tbh, every game I've used the keler his performance has been far poorer than the Alderaan-esque screech of collective internet rage from marine players would have indicated. Mostly, he turns up, my opponent has screened reasonably well against him, and either he kills some low-importance character like a naked lieutenant, or he pings off a MEQ in cover or an invuln save. End of the day, he's still only S4 Ap-1.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/03 15:06:56
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
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4
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/03 15:14:38
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Not for 3k+ games
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/03 15:18:34
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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They just got a points increase in CA. Not sure even 1 is worth it anymore as they struggle to do their job well in the current meta. We don't know if the upcoming PA will make them any better.
If you are want to pressure characters, you are probably better off with a Sanctus or Jackal Alphus.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/03 15:19:05
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/03 15:41:47
Subject: Re:How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If you're going to organised play events or tournaments, you'll find many use the optional/recommended limits on detachments/datasheets, usually either 3 or 1 ("highlander").
Even just playing basic vanilla matched play rules without event-recommendations, you'd be limited to 1 per detachment, and I am not sure running lots and lots of small detachments is what you'd want to do. GSC love their battalions for CP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/03 19:22:53
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Has anyone had more success with the Sanctus vs the Kelermorph? Honestly every time I've played the snipers, they've done... okayish. Kelermorphs just blast w.e they target to dust.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/03 19:37:12
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You can technically have more than 3. You just have to use the Telepathic Summons stratagem to create another one each turn. Units created mid-game are not bound by the rule of 3. Whether that's an efficient use of your CPs is another question though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/03 19:37:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/03 20:04:57
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Keramory wrote:Has anyone had more success with the Sanctus vs the Kelermorph? Honestly every time I've played the snipers, they've done... okayish. Kelermorphs just blast w.e they target to dust.
In my last game my Sanctus used his free 0cp use of perfect ambush to whack a psyker with a peril and then took a second shot in the shooting phase and did 2 wounds to another HQ, while the Kelermorph just got Auspex Scan'd to death.
So I'd say the Sanctus does good for me. Also one of the better relics IMO, since he tends to stay alive to you se it.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 03:15:23
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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the_scotsman wrote:Keramory wrote:Has anyone had more success with the Sanctus vs the Kelermorph? Honestly every time I've played the snipers, they've done... okayish. Kelermorphs just blast w.e they target to dust.
In my last game my Sanctus used his free 0cp use of perfect ambush to whack a psyker with a peril and then took a second shot in the shooting phase and did 2 wounds to another HQ, while the Kelermorph just got Auspex Scan'd to death.
So I'd say the Sanctus does good for me. Also one of the better relics IMO, since he tends to stay alive to you se it.
Thanks! The free strat always looks good to me, but every turn I want to pop it, I have a unit of acolytes or aberrants I want to use the strat on instead. You cant do both in matched play because of the one strat a turn right? Or does this somehow get around it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 03:59:36
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Keramory wrote:the_scotsman wrote:Keramory wrote:Has anyone had more success with the Sanctus vs the Kelermorph? Honestly every time I've played the snipers, they've done... okayish. Kelermorphs just blast w.e they target to dust.
In my last game my Sanctus used his free 0cp use of perfect ambush to whack a psyker with a peril and then took a second shot in the shooting phase and did 2 wounds to another HQ, while the Kelermorph just got Auspex Scan'd to death.
So I'd say the Sanctus does good for me. Also one of the better relics IMO, since he tends to stay alive to you se it.
Thanks! The free strat always looks good to me, but every turn I want to pop it, I have a unit of acolytes or aberrants I want to use the strat on instead. You cant do both in matched play because of the one strat a turn right? Or does this somehow get around it?
The Sanctus can use Perfect Ambush for 0CP, but it's still a use of the stratagem. So you can't use it again on another unit in the same phase.
However since ambushers can't show up on turn 1, you can use it to fire the sanctus as it appears from a blip, without much concern about blocking other units from using it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 04:03:57
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
Hanoi, Vietnam.
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From a background perspective, wouldn't any more than one be too many?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 04:28:01
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ginjitzu wrote:From a background perspective, wouldn't any more than one be too many?
Eh, the fluff isn't that immutable. Cults usually only have 1 of each character, but I see little reason why that always needs to be the case.
If the patriarch sees need to spawn more kelermorphs, why not? Maybe the world it's established on has a history of revolutionary folk hero's that travel in small groups, and it decides that's what people will expect.
I've even read some precedent in the fluff for there being multiple patriarchs. Can't recall which book it was from. Possibly one of the vigilus books.
When genestealers land and establish a cult, one of them emerges as dominant and mutates into a patriarch. However if two groups of genestealers land far enough apart on a planet, their broodminds don't link up, and they remain as separate cults, each with a patriarch. When they eventually run into each other, maybe they'll conflict and fight, or maybe they'll team up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 05:25:59
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade
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More than 4. You can have 3 in a tournament army, and if you set aside the points, you can summon another. I don't think that breaks any force org rules or makes you lose battleforged status.
I wish he hadn't gotten such a steep increase. I like the model, and want to convert another, but I don't see myself taking three anymore like some others. 1-2 is fine if you need him to run around and shoot infantry squads off the board.
Course that's if he survived coming on or doing any running around. Lol.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/04 05:26:30
PourSpelur wrote:It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't. Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 12:59:33
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Keramory wrote:the_scotsman wrote:Keramory wrote:Has anyone had more success with the Sanctus vs the Kelermorph? Honestly every time I've played the snipers, they've done... okayish. Kelermorphs just blast w.e they target to dust.
In my last game my Sanctus used his free 0cp use of perfect ambush to whack a psyker with a peril and then took a second shot in the shooting phase and did 2 wounds to another HQ, while the Kelermorph just got Auspex Scan'd to death.
So I'd say the Sanctus does good for me. Also one of the better relics IMO, since he tends to stay alive to you se it.
Thanks! The free strat always looks good to me, but every turn I want to pop it, I have a unit of acolytes or aberrants I want to use the strat on instead. You cant do both in matched play because of the one strat a turn right? Or does this somehow get around it?
Well, you deploy him with the sniper rifle in a blip, reveal the blip, and immediately use the stratagem for 0cp at the start of the game.
Nobody's competing for it then!
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 13:19:00
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Ginjitzu wrote:From a background perspective, wouldn't any more than one be too many?
Who’s to say a Cult army isn’t an amalgam of various smaller Cults each with their own heroes? I’ve always seen my GSC force this way... how else would you have multiple Maguses? Multiple Cult cells rising up together, of course.
No less fluffy than a ‘Blood Angels army’ being three Smash Captains with 32 Guardsmen and a Knight. (Aware this may not be a current meta build but we’ve seen it’s ilk)
No less fluffy than a T’au Caste who forgot how to build anything but Broadsides.
Honestly, there’s ways to reconcile most things with the fluff if you wanna play it on the table.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 13:45:18
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Fixture of Dakka
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What if the brood mother just had twin or even triplet morphs?
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If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 13:55:32
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Now that subfactions to armies are distinct, and we all seem to be getting doctrine equivalents to encourage mono faction play, I tend to Mono-Soup.
My GSC is growing from a kill team in a campaign game; which Cult Trait is manifest will depend on which Purestrain infects the greatest number of citizens in the first round of games; the one trait that can't be manifested this way is the Twisted Helix.
The reason for that is that a small contingent of Twisted Helix have already set up shop on a space station orbiting a nearby planet. Once the cult planetside grows large enough that it's first aberrants are born, it will attract the notice of the Twisted Helix, who will arrive to offer support to the revolution in return for a claim to their aberrant kin.
The Helix force has no patriarch or magus; this small group are survivors from another revolution, who escaped prior to the arrival of the Tyranids, who reabsorbed the rest of their cult. The group it is guided by the biophagus, though it is the Abominant who is the vanguard's HQ.
I've always done this sort of thing with my armies. Back in the days of the witch hunter dex, I made a 1500 pt inquisition force and 1500 sisters force. My current Sororitas army is shaping up to include at least a detachment from the Order of Our Martyred Lady and one from the Bloody Rose. We may be also be joined by an Order of the Sacred Rose. The deal here is that OoOML is in charge of the Cathedral, while the Bloody Rose manage the Penitent Legion and the Sacred Rose may take over the Schola Progenium facility.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/04 14:05:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 15:16:50
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade
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the_scotsman wrote:Keramory wrote:the_scotsman wrote:Keramory wrote:Has anyone had more success with the Sanctus vs the Kelermorph? Honestly every time I've played the snipers, they've done... okayish. Kelermorphs just blast w.e they target to dust.
In my last game my Sanctus used his free 0cp use of perfect ambush to whack a psyker with a peril and then took a second shot in the shooting phase and did 2 wounds to another HQ, while the Kelermorph just got Auspex Scan'd to death.
So I'd say the Sanctus does good for me. Also one of the better relics IMO, since he tends to stay alive to you se it.
Thanks! The free strat always looks good to me, but every turn I want to pop it, I have a unit of acolytes or aberrants I want to use the strat on instead. You cant do both in matched play because of the one strat a turn right? Or does this somehow get around it?
Well, you deploy him with the sniper rifle in a blip, reveal the blip, and immediately use the stratagem for 0cp at the start of the game.
Nobody's competing for it then!
Didn't they fix that in an Errata? I could have sworn they did, because I read it and wondered how exactly I was going to make use of that Strategem turn 1 now.
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PourSpelur wrote:It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't. Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 17:11:28
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Carnikang wrote:the_scotsman wrote:Keramory wrote:the_scotsman wrote:Keramory wrote:Has anyone had more success with the Sanctus vs the Kelermorph? Honestly every time I've played the snipers, they've done... okayish. Kelermorphs just blast w.e they target to dust.
In my last game my Sanctus used his free 0cp use of perfect ambush to whack a psyker with a peril and then took a second shot in the shooting phase and did 2 wounds to another HQ, while the Kelermorph just got Auspex Scan'd to death.
So I'd say the Sanctus does good for me. Also one of the better relics IMO, since he tends to stay alive to you se it.
Thanks! The free strat always looks good to me, but every turn I want to pop it, I have a unit of acolytes or aberrants I want to use the strat on instead. You cant do both in matched play because of the one strat a turn right? Or does this somehow get around it?
Well, you deploy him with the sniper rifle in a blip, reveal the blip, and immediately use the stratagem for 0cp at the start of the game.
Nobody's competing for it then!
Didn't they fix that in an Errata? I could have sworn they did, because I read it and wondered how exactly I was going to make use of that Strategem turn 1 now.
Q: Can you use the A Perfect Ambush Stratagem on a unit set
up in ambush when it is set up on the battlefield within 1" of an
ambush marker?
A: Yes
from the FAQ. Explicitly says he can do it.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 19:29:11
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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the_scotsman wrote:tbh, every game I've used the keler his performance has been far poorer than the Alderaan-esque screech of collective internet rage from marine players would have indicated. Mostly, he turns up, my opponent has screened reasonably well against him, and either he kills some low-importance character like a naked lieutenant, or he pings off a MEQ in cover or an invuln save. End of the day, he's still only S4 Ap-1.
I think the internet (me included) collectively forgot that you could only screen him with... T3, 5+ (at most 6++/6+++) guys rather than say a brick of Intercessors.
So rather than setting up a relatively cheap trio in the middle of the board throwing out 33~ BS 2+ S4 AP-1 2 damage shots with the ability to target characters, you have a model which, as you say, turns up, kills a non-vital character, and then gets immediately shot off the table in response (along with any screen if necessary).
This was also in a world where Marines needed help, not making the meta.
I tend to agree that he isn't great. One is probably worth it just to make your opponent a bit nervous, but the reliced-up Sanctus does a more reliable job at popping Psykers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/02/04 19:44:33
Subject: How many Kelermorphs are too many?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Tyel wrote:the_scotsman wrote:tbh, every game I've used the keler his performance has been far poorer than the Alderaan-esque screech of collective internet rage from marine players would have indicated. Mostly, he turns up, my opponent has screened reasonably well against him, and either he kills some low-importance character like a naked lieutenant, or he pings off a MEQ in cover or an invuln save. End of the day, he's still only S4 Ap-1.
I think the internet (me included) collectively forgot that you could only screen him with... T3, 5+ (at most 6++/6+++) guys rather than say a brick of Intercessors.
So rather than setting up a relatively cheap trio in the middle of the board throwing out 33~ BS 2+ S4 AP-1 2 damage shots with the ability to target characters, you have a model which, as you say, turns up, kills a non-vital character, and then gets immediately shot off the table in response (along with any screen if necessary).
This was also in a world where Marines needed help, not making the meta.
I tend to agree that he isn't great. One is probably worth it just to make your opponent a bit nervous, but the reliced-up Sanctus does a more reliable job at popping Psykers.
He's also just way too much of an easy target for every "pop when they drop" stratagem. sure, you're GSC, so there's likely something else drawing at least some attention, but he's an easy 80pts to knock off an enemy army by hitting forewarned, auspex scan, or the admech one.
Maybe if Acolytes were my hammer unit it'd be different, but a SM army definitely has a harder time removing Aberrants with auspex scan than the kelermorph who is T3 W...4? 5++.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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