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Dudeface wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're both going to walk away being "bloodied but unbroken" and nothing will change.

So stop being so melodramatic.

Tell that to Calgar who lost his newly regrow limbs to Abbadon. Or Drazhar who had a stint of being dead (well as dead as somone apparently operating by Pheonix Lord rules can be) GW isn't above breaking people now and then for drama.

But they’re both still around in pretty much the same place they were before. I think they come under ‘bloodied but unbroken’.

Seems like a stretch but whatever justifications people need to call things "ties" I guess.

Calgar was left maimed and deemed unfit for field duties any more, but then that wasn't in psychic awakening and vigilus actually moved the time line slightly I believe? Where as PA is historic events.

Thanks the temporal crapshoot the great rift is causing, anywhen it wants to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huh. Ragnar went 404. He apparently was discontinued in the UK and whrn I went to check the link he's just gone. He doesn't come up when you search for him either: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Wolves-Ragnar-Blackmane%C2%A0

Same with ghazzy

Dudeface wrote:


Calgar was left maimed and deemed unfit for field duties any more

no he wasn't Calgar had 2 fingers severed and both hearts stabbed, hard injuries to be sure but no mention of his being unfit for field duties. fact is if he survived, those wounds are proably treatable I imagine he's got a "astartes pace maker" now but..

I understand the idea that people want 'real ramifications' to these books.

But I also feel if they went and assassinated a beloved character in every book, people would be equally outraged. Obviously, they wouldnt create new miniatures for characters doomed to die, but what if Drazhar, or Calgar, or Ghazkull were unceremoniously killed off in their respective books?

People would be incensed that their favourite characters are now restricted to a certain timeline. I feel they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Hey guys, I'm betting on Ghaz and Ragnar facing each other and the end result is a draw. Anyone wanna bet against me?

 ghosty wrote:
I understand the idea that people want 'real ramifications' to these books.

But I also feel if they went and assassinated a beloved character in every book, people would be equally outraged. Obviously, they wouldnt create new miniatures for characters doomed to die, but what if Drazhar, or Calgar, or Ghazkull were unceremoniously killed off in their respective books?

People would be incensed that their favourite characters are now restricted to a certain timeline. I feel they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

What if the characters were killed with all the pomp and circumstance instead? Instead of mealy no-resolution stories, an entire book dedicated to the conflict between Yarrick and Ghaz, where one of them actually dies in the end? Or is so crippled that he is no longer capable of fighting, permanently? The model would still be perfectly usable, codexes have historical characters all the time.

BrianDavion wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Calgar was left maimed and deemed unfit for field duties any more

no he wasn't Calgar had 2 fingers severed and both hearts stabbed, hard injuries to be sure but no mention of his being unfit for field duties. fact is if he survived, those wounds are proably treatable I imagine he's got a "astartes pace maker" now but..

page 43 "Calgar survived that fell day, his second heart salvaged by the secret arts of the apothecarium, even though his primary heart was cloven through. He was not seen on the front line of the battlefield from that point on, but continued to command the armies of the Imperium from the heart of the Vigilus Senate. Though he was diminished in stature by the grievous wound he suffered, his mind was as strong and sharp as ever."

He's clearly not capable of taking to the field any more and used as a strategic asset rather than a warrior. I'm sure they'll do even more hand waving and give him a fake heart and hand in the future though.

 ghosty wrote:
I understand the idea that people want 'real ramifications' to these books.

But I also feel if they went and assassinated a beloved character in every book, people would be equally outraged. Obviously, they wouldnt create new miniatures for characters doomed to die, but what if Drazhar, or Calgar, or Ghazkull were unceremoniously killed off in their respective books?

People would be incensed that their favourite characters are now restricted to a certain timeline. I feel they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Depends how you do it, Tycho was killed off and a new model produced as you can field dead historical characters in games set prior to their death,

Drahzar was actually killed off in his book - but it appears as if he will be reborn in the same way as the Phoenix Lord he might be.

The current incarantion of the Space Wolves are the personification of Plot Shields and as a Champion of the Wulfs Ragnar has plot shields the thickness of your average mountain range so the outcome is not really in doubt. judging by the most recent story - I am sure Ghaz will become a member of their fan club and wish he too was a Wulf.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ghosty wrote:
I understand the idea that people want 'real ramifications' to these books.

But I also feel if they went and assassinated a beloved character in every book, people would be equally outraged. Obviously, they wouldnt create new miniatures for characters doomed to die, but what if Drazhar, or Calgar, or Ghazkull were unceremoniously killed off in their respective books?

People would be incensed that their favourite characters are now restricted to a certain timeline. I feel they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Depends how you do it, Tycho was killed off and a new model produced as you can field dead historical characters in games set prior to their death,

Drahzar was actually killed off in his book - but it appears as if he will be reborn in the same way as the Phoenix Lord he might be.

The current incarantion of the Space Wolves are the personification of Plot Shields and as a Champion of the Wulfs Ragnar has plot shields the thickness of your average mountain range so the outcome is not really in doubt. judging by the most recent story - I am sure Ghaz will become a member of their fan club and wish he too was a Wulf.

But we know Ghaz and Ragnar are both still alive as per the relevant codex for them both, so they'll just slap each other a bit and go for round 2 later

 ghosty wrote:
I understand the idea that people want 'real ramifications' to these books.

But I also feel if they went and assassinated a beloved character in every book, people would be equally outraged. Obviously, they wouldnt create new miniatures for characters doomed to die, but what if Drazhar, or Calgar, or Ghazkull were unceremoniously killed off in their respective books?

People would be incensed that their favourite characters are now restricted to a certain timeline. I feel they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Bear in mind that hardly anyone actually reads the lore. As a result anything more subtle than "X was killed by Y" passes most people by.

I also find that many who want "real ramifications" which translates to "dead main characters", tend to be more readers than gamers and often when they are both, they don't realise that they will mention characters other than their own faction.

So they want other races to change, but not their own collection. Though at times they will, esp if they can see a character is locking their faction a certain way.


There's also the fact that most of the major lore victories and losses don't really have any game or model impact. You might get a new model released when a major lore event happens; but by and large the Imperium could lose 90% of its holdings and still would be the same on the tabletop.

Tycho wasn't given a new model. We still have the second incarnation of his model as the latest one. I'd have much preferred a new Tycho to a new Mephiston.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Depends how you do it, Tycho was killed off and a new model produced as you can field dead historical characters in games set prior to their death.

Since I don't think there are any restrictions about how you can play characters I now kind of want to play death Company Tycho alongside Death Company Intercessors just to hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth...

 ghosty wrote:
I understand the idea that people want 'real ramifications' to these books.

But I also feel if they went and assassinated a beloved character in every book, people would be equally outraged. Obviously, they wouldnt create new miniatures for characters doomed to die, but what if Drazhar, or Calgar, or Ghazkull were unceremoniously killed off in their respective books?

People would be incensed that their favourite characters are now restricted to a certain timeline. I feel they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Why special characters suck.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ghosty wrote:
I understand the idea that people want 'real ramifications' to these books.

But I also feel if they went and assassinated a beloved character in every book, people would be equally outraged. Obviously, they wouldnt create new miniatures for characters doomed to die, but what if Drazhar, or Calgar, or Ghazkull were unceremoniously killed off in their respective books?

People would be incensed that their favourite characters are now restricted to a certain timeline. I feel they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Why special characters suck.

Why making 40k into an ongoing story sucks.

Back in 2nd Edition we used to have more dead characters you could field in your army. They've largely backpedaled on that though which is a shame because it used to let us have finality in events involving most characters without punishing people for using them.

pm713 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Why special characters suck.

Why making 40k into an ongoing story sucks.

Yeah, both those things actually.

I feel like people are confusing "things I don't like" for "things that are objectively bad" again.

Trying to do something(ongoing storyline) with something that was never intended to be one(40k) is bad no matter how you look at it

 ghosty wrote:
I understand the idea that people want 'real ramifications' to these books.

But I also feel if they went and assassinated a beloved character in every book, people would be equally outraged. Obviously, they wouldnt create new miniatures for characters doomed to die, but what if Drazhar, or Calgar, or Ghazkull were unceremoniously killed off in their respective books?

People would be incensed that their favourite characters are now restricted to a certain timeline. I feel they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Would it not give GW more room to force new characters into the narrative and pump out a model for us fans to purchase?

tneva82 wrote:
Trying to do something(ongoing storyline) with something that was never intended to be one(40k) is bad no matter how you look at it

Except we had plenty of stories that changed characters over time. Tycho and Huron both come to mind as good examples. 40k had plenty of stories that were moving and progressing, some of them were even set in "modern" 40k. The only thing that really changed is that the team stopped cramming it all into 999.M40.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Trying to do something(ongoing storyline) with something that was never intended to be one(40k) is bad no matter how you look at it

Except we had plenty of stories that changed characters over time. Tycho and Huron both come to mind as good examples. 40k had plenty of stories that were moving and progressing, some of them were even set in "modern" 40k. The only thing that really changed is that the team stopped cramming it all into 999.M40.

With that said, Chaos Huron is hilariously bad to Loyalist Huron for reasons.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel like people are confusing "things I don't like" for "things that are objectively bad" again.

There is no such thing as "objectively bad".

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel like people are confusing "things I don't like" for "things that are objectively bad" again.

There is no such thing as "objectively bad".

Warcraft 3: Reforged says hi. As does the mobile port of Dungeon Keeper.

That said, when it comes to 40k, you're mostly right. A lot of the "this is bad" is more "I don't like this" and people conflating the two things.

Haha. Yeah. I mean, everything is relative amirite? We're all good, postmodern comrades here. There is no "Bad". Heh. No such thing. If you say something is bad it's because your just delightfully simplistic in your perception of the world. Hah.

The world used to pivot on events that characters were part of, not events character's created personally and were the locus for.

It was very much 'man swept up in whirlwind does best job to fly he can'.

On of the main points of 40k and the imperium is that it's so unimaginably huge that no one person's actions tend to have wide reaching effects. Not even an inquisitor declaring exterminatus - it would likely be the only thing of note they were involved in, before they were ignominiously killed by a cultist in a back alley skirmish.r


Characters took part in decision making, did their jobs in battles etc. But they generally weren't the locus on which the story turned. Ghazghkull was probably the closest one previously but even then his waaaagh was just one of many that would come and go. There was nothing intrinsically special about him.

40k today however turns on the actions of a few characters to a degree it never has. It's hard to write expansive background lore for a war game when everything is filtering through the guilliman's, cawls, and yvraines of the setting.

The imperium used to act on inertia regardless of who was the boss of what. it would drag everyone along with it.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel like people are confusing "things I don't like" for "things that are objectively bad" again.

There is no such thing as "objectively bad".

There very much is.

 Overread wrote:
I also find that many who want "real ramifications" which translates to "dead main characters", tend to be more readers than gamers and often when they are both, they don't realise that they will mention characters other than their own faction.

So they want other races to change, but not their own collection. Though at times they will, esp if they can see a character is locking their faction a certain way.


There's also the fact that most of the major lore victories and losses don't really have any game or model impact. You might get a new model released when a major lore event happens; but by and large the Imperium could lose 90% of its holdings and still would be the same on the tabletop.

See, I don't equate "real ramifications" with "dead characters". Or even new models. I just want things to happen. Take Ritual of the Damned. If Magnus had succeeded, it's highly unlikely any kind of major character would have been killed or even affected. I feel like they could have done something with that success that helps the lore develop. Instead, the New Guy plot-armors his way out of it at the last minute, despite getting his culet handed to him the whole story - and even AFTER we were told they couldn't plot armor like that.

I just want change, ya know?*





*I'm not biased or anything...

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The only thing that really changed is that the team stopped cramming it all into 999.M40.

It was way better when it was "all crammed into 999.M40", because those stories took place into the 40k lore, instead of defining and changing it like they do now.
Bad change, previous was better.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The only thing that really changed is that the team stopped cramming it all into 999.M40.

It was way better when it was "all crammed into 999.M40", because those stories took place into the 40k lore, instead of defining and changing it like they do now.
Bad change, previous was better.

Except all those events were changing things, all at the same time and it was a big ol' fustercluck to keep track of with stuff being retroactively being crammed into the past (Centurions, flyers, ect) like the original events were written with those things in mind.

Giving stuff room to breath isn't bad.