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 p5freak wrote:
Whenever someone tells me I can't fast roll saves I tell them that I dont. Even if I have all dice in my hand, and let go of them, they all aren't rolled at the same time. It's impossible to roll all dice at the same time.

I assume this is in response to someone pedantically arguing that you can't make 10 identical saves because of the argument that if you know ahead of time how many people will be left alive it will change the order that you remove casualties? Yes?

I assume it doesn't matter how "fast" you actually roll each die in succession - the actual argument stems from wanting to know which model the save is applying to. In that case - you couldn't possibly announce them as you roll because the dice are hitting the table too quickly. If so, wouldn't it be easier to simply to say something like:
"All the wounds are going towards generic mooks first, then the sergeant, and lastly the heavy weapon guy"
Or army equivalent version.

Necrons are all the same, there is no sarge, and no heavy weapon guy.

 p5freak wrote:
Necrons are all the same, there is no sarge, and no heavy weapon guy.

Ok so to be clear - this wacky argument is in response to someone who pedantically argues you must roll saves one at a time despite the unit having all the same save value and having no special weapons or upgraded models

Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Necrons are all the same, there is no sarge, and no heavy weapon guy.

Ok so to be clear - this wacky argument is in response to someone who pedantically argues you must roll saves one at a time despite the unit having all the same save value and having no special weapons or upgraded models

There are cases where you would remove different models first depending on how many die.

For example, take the diagram below - let's say you have a unit of Warriors daisy-chained out, with four guys within 12" of some Tactical Marines, but you're being shot at by another unit first.

It could well be that you want to be as close to the Tacticals as possible (to charge them and claim their objective), but also want to be out of rapid fire range when they fire (so more than 12" away). If only three die, you can't get out of rapid fire range, so you would want to remove from the back to give yourself a better chance of charging. But if four die, you would want to remove the four nearest, to get outside of rapid fire range. If you fast rolled allocation and saves, you could make that choice, but if you play according to the rules you can't.


Objective
Tacticals

(6" gap)

O
O
O
O
(12" mark)
Rest of warriors

That is just one example of why it could make a difference seeing the number of saves made before allocating damage, even on a homogenous unit.

EDIT: To be clear, this is an example of where it matters. A lot of the time, it won't make any difference (if I'm running 30 orks to your line, you better believe that the casualties are coming from the back) and in most casual situations I will happily shortcut it. But the point is that there are circumstances where fast rolling allocation / saves does give the defender an advantage, and it's important to recognise these rather than just saying "it doesn't make any difference".

Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Necrons are all the same, there is no sarge, and no heavy weapon guy.

Ok so to be clear - this wacky argument is in response to someone who pedantically argues you must roll saves one at a time despite the unit having all the same save value and having no special weapons or upgraded models

No, P5freak is being pedantic for the sake of being pedantic.

The argument is that there are two schools of thoughts on fast rolling.

School 1 believes it's an alternative form of rolling dice entirely. The rules for fast rolling has specific criteria when it can be used, and does not specify that it cannot be used if the said outcome would be affected & be different from when you'd roll the dice individually, therefore, fast rolling can be used whether or not the outcome would be affected.

School 2 believes it's simply a form of rolling multiple dice at the same time. Fast rolling is provided as a means to speed up the game only. In case where there is a potential for alternate outcome from the sequence of the dice rolls, fast roll cannot be used. (i.e. multiple overcharged plasmas @ rapid fire range).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aelyn wrote:
There are cases where you would remove different models first depending on how many die
.
.
.
That is just one example of why it could make a difference seeing the number of saves made before allocating damage, even on a homogenous unit.

There is no provision to fast roll save rolls. You must allocate wound to a specific model in the defending unit before rolling to save.

...Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one
at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage
each time as appropriate.

 skchsan wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aelyn wrote:
There are cases where you would remove different models first depending on how many die
.
.
.
That is just one example of why it could make a difference seeing the number of saves made before allocating damage, even on a homogenous unit.

There is no provision to fast roll save rolls. You must allocate wound to a specific model in the defending unit before rolling to save.

...Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.

Yes, I know. I was explaining to Cryptek why this can make a difference, even when all models are identical.

Aelyn wrote:
If you fast rolled allocation and saves, you could make that choice, but if you play according to the rules you can't.

 skchsan wrote:

In case where there is a potential for alternate outcome from the sequence of the dice rolls, fast roll cannot be used. (i.e. multiple overcharged plasmas @ rapid fire range).

Citation please. The only requirement for fast rolling is :

In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit.

 p5freak wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

In case where there is a potential for alternate outcome from the sequence of the dice rolls, fast roll cannot be used. (i.e. multiple overcharged plasmas @ rapid fire range).

Citation please. The only requirement for fast rolling is :

In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit.

But, later on (after saying you can fast roll hits and to wound) the sidebar says "Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate." There is nothing in the rule saying you can fast roll saves. And, the topic of this thread is allocating wounds, not rolling to hit.