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 catbarf wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Argive wrote:
CHapter master should be 3CP or just re-roll failed.

Re-roll all is still a bad mechanic for everyone.

Its a start though.

Reroll all is because rerolls are done before mods. If you hit a 3+, but are -1 to hit, you couldn’t reroll the 3s because they haven’t missed yet.

I think that's their point; re-roll failed is less powerful. 2CP to get re-roll all is a no-brainer and encourages static, deathstar gameplay.

All rerolls should be reroll all. That reroll before modifiers is stupid. Two types of reroll like that is even more stupid.

There just needs to be lot LESS rerolls around. Sources should be more scarce and more pricey. Not so like now where overcharging plasma isn't really worry because everybody and their uncle has reroll anyway.

 catbarf wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Argive wrote:
CHapter master should be 3CP or just re-roll failed.

Re-roll all is still a bad mechanic for everyone.

Its a start though.

Reroll all is because rerolls are done before mods. If you hit a 3+, but are -1 to hit, you couldn’t reroll the 3s because they haven’t missed yet.

I think that's their point; re-roll failed is less powerful. 2CP to get re-roll all is a no-brainer and encourages static, deathstar gameplay.

Not to mention that a "Chapter master" stratagem does not make any sense for a first founding chapter.

Spoletta wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Argive wrote:
CHapter master should be 3CP or just re-roll failed.

Re-roll all is still a bad mechanic for everyone.

Its a start though.

Reroll all is because rerolls are done before mods. If you hit a 3+, but are -1 to hit, you couldn’t reroll the 3s because they haven’t missed yet.

I think that's their point; re-roll failed is less powerful. 2CP to get re-roll all is a no-brainer and encourages static, deathstar gameplay.

Not to mention that a "Chapter master" stratagem does not make any sense for a first founding chapter.

Marneus wasn't a Chapter Master for the Ultramarines 1000 years ago.

"but the ongoing storyline! We are now! Not 1000 year ago!"

tneva82 wrote:
"but the ongoing storyline! We are now! Not 1000 year ago!"

...and 1000 years from now he's probably dead...

 Kanluwen wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
About fething time.

Hey good news sm players! Black makes an excellent base coat, so it'll be easy to repaint all those Iron Hands and Raven Guard armies back to what they were before you jumped on that bandwagon !

This is one of the more amusing things to see play out in real time, seeing some locals posting about how they were "hArDcOrE rAvEn gUaRd pLaYeRs"(who never expressed any interest until they saw the nonsense about centurions getting dropped in) whinge about this change and their centurions that they totally had all along(spoiler: they just bought them to do this).

And then there's the same thing happening with Iron Hands too. It's not often you get to see netlisting blow up in someone's face in real time.

Yeah, comedy fething gold.

 Freeflow44 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
As a Dark Angels player I'm miffed that I barely had time to play my army with the broken-as-feth rules.

If I take away my bias though, this is absolutely fair, and probably the best way to go about it. If you're going to have doctrines, you shouldn't be able to linger. That makes sense.

Brings it more in line with other army-wide systems like Miracle Dice. Random but fair. Now doctrines are powerful, but temporary.

I didn't like feeling guilty about SM being OP, hopefully this generates a little more goodwill in the community for that faction's players

Agreed, I got to use the broken rules, once and it was a massacre, I simply gave every Intercessor Stalker Bolt Rifles, and stayed in the Devastator doctrine the entire game, I simply annihilated everything from 36-48 inches away, game was decided in Turn 2. Now having to move through the doctrines, I have to consider the Tactical Doctrine (Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, and Hellblasters). Assault Doctrine (Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing). This is a good change, I can now bring all three wings and compete and not have to be a Tau gunline

Nothing ever stopped you to do so. You have always had this possiblity, it was your choice not to.

 Freeflow44 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
As a Dark Angels player I'm miffed that I barely had time to play my army with the broken-as-feth rules.

If I take away my bias though, this is absolutely fair, and probably the best way to go about it. If you're going to have doctrines, you shouldn't be able to linger. That makes sense.

Brings it more in line with other army-wide systems like Miracle Dice. Random but fair. Now doctrines are powerful, but temporary.

I didn't like feeling guilty about SM being OP, hopefully this generates a little more goodwill in the community for that faction's players

Agreed, I got to use the broken rules, once and it was a massacre, I simply gave every Intercessor Stalker Bolt Rifles, and stayed in the Devastator doctrine the entire game, I simply annihilated everything from 36-48 inches away, game was decided in Turn 2. Now having to move through the doctrines, I have to consider the Tactical Doctrine (Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, and Hellblasters). Assault Doctrine (Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing). This is a good change, I can now bring all three wings and compete and not have to be a Tau gunline

Yeah it also makes deployment and first turn movement/firing decisions way more important. You've got one turn to take advantage of your doctrine, you gotta make it count.

Same goes for any Chapter with a Devastator doctrine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:

 Freeflow44 wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
As a Dark Angels player I'm miffed that I barely had time to play my army with the broken-as-feth rules.

If I take away my bias though, this is absolutely fair, and probably the best way to go about it. If you're going to have doctrines, you shouldn't be able to linger. That makes sense.

Brings it more in line with other army-wide systems like Miracle Dice. Random but fair. Now doctrines are powerful, but temporary.

I didn't like feeling guilty about SM being OP, hopefully this generates a little more goodwill in the community for that faction's players

Agreed, I got to use the broken rules, once and it was a massacre, I simply gave every Intercessor Stalker Bolt Rifles, and stayed in the Devastator doctrine the entire game, I simply annihilated everything from 36-48 inches away, game was decided in Turn 2. Now having to move through the doctrines, I have to consider the Tactical Doctrine (Intercessors with Bolt Rifles, and Hellblasters). Assault Doctrine (Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing). This is a good change, I can now bring all three wings and compete and not have to be a Tau gunline

Nothing ever stopped you to do so. You have always had this possiblity, it was your choice not to.

In his defense he only did it once. And who among us doesn't secretly want to take advantage of completely broken rules at least once?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Centurions never should have been able to benefit from the Raven Guard deployment shenanigans, and anyone who was doing so went against the essence that makes up the Sons of Corax.

As a fellow Ravenguard player I AM of the opinion that this ALPHA-striking shenanigan was indeed shamefull beyond any means. RI-ght now this faq is of great US-e.

[Quietly swaps Cents for Aggressors]
"Yup, good change, totally tones my lists down."

I play Iron Hands (have done since 6th) and I can accept the changes as necessary for the state of the game.
However, I'm a little annoyed that we now can't move heavy weapons without penalty after turn 1 when surely, that's when we want to be re-positioning.
I hope GW consider looking at the supplements rules after a month or so to see if they're still working as intended.
I just want Dreadnoughts to not go back to being gun platforms.

The super apothicary and super tech marine also need to go. Especially with the apoth stacking with the IH rules to give 5++ intercessors.

I think more could have been done
General interactions between successors and founding (don't double dip the bonuses)
Master Artisans being a 2 slot successor choice
Something more for DA since their tactic pretty much revolves around standing still (raven wing, green wing and death wing should all get their own doctrine but whatever)

That being said this is definitely better than I expected. Not waiting until the Spring FAQ is smart (sucks they waited this long).

Now some nerfs on stacking negs to hit (possessed bomb), eldar bikes and shooting (shining spears/conclave and their version of MA) and we should be good to go!

pyrotank wrote:

I just want Dreadnoughts to not go back to being gun platforms.

I would LOVE to see the price of their melee weapons go way down.

The Newman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Centurions never should have been able to benefit from the Raven Guard deployment shenanigans, and anyone who was doing so went against the essence that makes up the Sons of Corax.

As a fellow Ravenguard player I AM of the opinion that this ALPHA-striking shenanigan was indeed shamefull beyond any means. RI-ght now this faq is of great US-e.

[Quietly swaps Cents for Aggressors]
"Yup, good change, totally tones my lists down."

Dude. Recycling the same joke in a different thread?

I guess Iron Hands will just have to use tactics rather than rules to win the games, just like everyone else.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Centurions never should have been able to benefit from the Raven Guard deployment shenanigans, and anyone who was doing so went against the essence that makes up the Sons of Corax.

As a fellow Ravenguard player I AM of the opinion that this ALPHA-striking shenanigan was indeed shamefull beyond any means. RI-ght now this faq is of great US-e.

[Quietly swaps Cents for Aggressors]
"Yup, good change, totally tones my lists down."

Dude. Recycling the same joke in a different thread?

Didn't want anyone to get left out.

IH lists are going to be quite the finesse ones to play. You have to use your first turn to position all your heavy pieces around the board.

The Newman wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Centurions never should have been able to benefit from the Raven Guard deployment shenanigans, and anyone who was doing so went against the essence that makes up the Sons of Corax.

As a fellow Ravenguard player I AM of the opinion that this ALPHA-striking shenanigan was indeed shamefull beyond any means. RI-ght now this faq is of great US-e.

[Quietly swaps Cents for Aggressors]
"Yup, good change, totally tones my lists down."

Dude. Recycling the same joke in a different thread?

Didn't want anyone to get left out.

It was a pretty good one.

So as I predicted, Imperial Fists will probably become the best Marine faction now. Ultramarines seem pretty good now too. To me this seems like a really good fix.

Karol wrote:

No army or faction should dominate the comp meta to such an extent.
irrelevant which faction it is.

eldar had similar numbers, same with knights, at least in my country. So I don't really see the difference. Plus marines are linked to the rules my army has, any point/rule change always hits my dudes like a boomerang. Had to suffer through five big nerfs, just because other armies were too good. So if any army is suppose to be top, and one will always be considering how GW writes their rules, then I would rather have marines be at the top.

...except that this super doesnt affect your dudes. At all. Its a nerf to doctrines, which GK dont do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pyrotank wrote:
I play Iron Hands (have done since 6th) and I can accept the changes as necessary for the state of the game.
However, I'm a little annoyed that we now can't move heavy weapons without penalty after turn 1 when surely, that's when we want to be re-positioning.
I hope GW consider looking at the supplements rules after a month or so to see if they're still working as intended.
I just want Dreadnoughts to not go back to being gun platforms.

Isnt there a 1cp strat to make any vehicle count as being in Dev?

Poor you, you have 1cp for reroll 1s, -1ap and move and fire heavy while other armies have to spend 1cp for just move and fire.

Ultramarines have a strategem to let you start Doctrines all over again, don't they?

They missed it because UM were in the middle of the pack? Yay! Mediocrity!

Lucky that my Ultramarine didn't get hit hard by that, they rely on Tactical Doctrine and the game is basically decided on or before Turn 4 anyway.

the_scotsman wrote:

pyrotank wrote:
I play Iron Hands (have done since 6th) and I can accept the changes as necessary for the state of the game.
However, I'm a little annoyed that we now can't move heavy weapons without penalty after turn 1 when surely, that's when we want to be re-positioning.
I hope GW consider looking at the supplements rules after a month or so to see if they're still working as intended.
I just want Dreadnoughts to not go back to being gun platforms.

Isnt there a 1cp strat to make any vehicle count as being in Dev?

Poor you, you have 1cp for reroll 1s, -1ap and move and fire heavy while other armies have to spend 1cp for just move and fire.

Yeah you right. I completely forgot about that strat.

Karol wrote:

GW took a unit that was suddenly fun to use, and may as well put it in to legends, with the rules it has now. I mean they can't even stay in devastator doctrin whole game and take pot shots at stuff.

Also centurions are too dreadnought like to infiltrate close using magic. But an actual invictor dreadnought is all golden and good by GW logic.

Centurions aren't Primaris, so they will end up in Legends soon enough anyway. The models have always been either moderately disliked or outright reviled, and it's taken hilariously broken rule interactions to make anyone care about the unit. Now that those interactions have gone away, I doubt anyone will miss Centurions that much.

Also, Invictors are literally made for stealth operations while Centurions are not.

 catbarf wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Argive wrote:
CHapter master should be 3CP or just re-roll failed.

Re-roll all is still a bad mechanic for everyone.

Its a start though.

Reroll all is because rerolls are done before mods. If you hit a 3+, but are -1 to hit, you couldn’t reroll the 3s because they haven’t missed yet.

I think that's their point; re-roll failed is less powerful. 2CP to get re-roll all is a no-brainer and encourages static, deathstar gameplay.

Catbarf gets it...

Meh, never bought Centurions, my RG remain mostly unchanged. May add a few more LCs for my vanvets for turn 4 slashing.

I'm rather glad for these changes. Deep striking Centurions were silly, in particular.

bananathug wrote:
The super apothicary and super tech marine also need to go. Especially with the apoth stacking with the IH rules to give 5++ intercessors.

I think more could have been done
General interactions between successors and founding (don't double dip the bonuses)
Master Artisans being a 2 slot successor choice
Something more for DA since their tactic pretty much revolves around standing still (raven wing, green wing and death wing should all get their own doctrine but whatever)

That being said this is definitely better than I expected. Not waiting until the Spring FAQ is smart (sucks they waited this long).

Now some nerfs on stacking negs to hit (possessed bomb), eldar bikes and shooting (shining spears/conclave and their version of MA) and we should be good to go!

Giving Intercessors within 1" a 5++ is not broken LOL

Master Artisans is not the issue. The issue is how Successors were actually handled. How it should've BEEN done was, when doing a successor, you're either the Inheritors or whatever, or if you deviate you still get the main draw (so an Iron Hands Successor must always have a 6+++, White Scars must always have the charging clause thing), and then the second part is picked from a list. So your Iron Hands successors are still bionic, but they're too aggressive to want to be able to do Overwatch better. They're obviously total ragers and get exploding 6s in melee. Carcharodons and Raptors are obviously still stealthy, but one gets the extra 3" that people say don't matter and one gets the +1" to advancing and charging.

It really should not have been that difficult to figure out but here we are.

Very happy to see these changes, though it's a shame the Cahpter Master strat didn't get a CP increase.

Forced cycling through doctrines is a good change that tones down the huge advantage of having a Devastator buff. Tactical doctrine bonuses like the Raven Guard's are looking better since you can get 2 turns but they kick in before Assault, and Assault bonuses are essentially unchanged anyway.
My own RG list, which was pretty bad before the Newdex and became 'decent' (at least able to compete with my more competently designed Chaos list) ironically isn't hit at all by these changes. For one thing, no Centurions. For another, the doctrine change matches how I was using doctrines anyway. The fact that my mediocre list was unaffected speaks well of the precision of the nerfs: hit the exploitative stuff, but leave the other things alone. Now we'll have to see how it plays out among people who are actually good at the game.
I do find it amusing that the Space Corgis are gonna get another Day 1 Errata. Sad, but amusing.