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Ice_can wrote:

 ImperialArmy wrote:
some factions get massive OP strats and some get pure crap.

So once again the issue is more GW's inability to balance things than the actual strats or abilities individually.

They have been unable to balance the game for years. why would they be able to balance a new layer of rules added on top of everything.

Compare startegems from one force say Elder to IG to see the inherant imbalance. Can this be fixed... i doubt it. Not with out blanket rewrite of all the strategems.
The rewrite will need to be done for all forces at once. The game can not continue to design one faction at a time. That is where the imbalance comes from.

Play rogue trader 40k everything was even. everyone had access to the same rules. Once they started to release faction only rules, one faction at a time, by different writers ... everything went askew. ie.. power creep, faction imbalance, army tiers.

It needs to be designed as a unified game system, by a team of consistent writers.

the_scotsman wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I..strongly disagree. Honestly I think the game is somewhat lacking in these areas especially since the removal of tank shock/ram. The fact that I can stick a gretchin in front of an imperial knight and it cannot do anything to get through or over them until the shooting phase makes just bare-bones bodies/screens in general way too potent.

The fact that you complained that mass assault is too easily made impossible while also complaining about the things that make it function at all in the modern game is pretty odd.

You seem to have vastly misunderstood my post.

I did not, anywhere, 'complain that mass assault is too easily made impossible'. I think you need to read my OP again.

If you have any questions about the point I'm trying to make, feel free to ask, genuinely. Your point about a Grot blocking an IK, while valid, has very little to do with this topic.

The purpose of the example was to point out that in previous editions, a large unit could act offensively in the movement phase towards a very small unit using Tank Shock or Ram to prevent such blocking tactics, which really rely on the strict order of the phasing in order to be effective.

Your own example, of GK shooting using the psychic phase to clear a screen, is an example of what I would consider to be solid game design, and one of the primary reasons that assault armies are unviable. There's very little you can do with a dedicated assault army to NOT charge the first thing your opponent puts in front of you, allowing them to dictate the flow of the game.

Reactions during the opponent's turn make it so you don't have to just sit and take it during your opponent's turn. I wish there was much more in the line of abilities like auspex scan or forewarned. In my opinion, stripping out of phase reaction abilities would make the game shallower, not deeper.

It's not solid game design if three out of twenty factions have the ability to fire at units that drop in out of reserves. Nor if only one faction can shoot during its psychic phase, in my opinion.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, it does work that way though. A hypothesis is proven wrong by a single counter-example.

Which means that your original hypothesis "Factions that have units which can act outside of normal phasing are inherently imbalanced." is wrong, or in other words, being able to act out of phase doesn't inherently make a faction imbalanced. Necron's power as a faction is no way related to being able to act out of sequence.

You're confusing 'imbalanced' with 'OP' or even 'competitive'. One does not mean the other. Something can be imbalanced and not competitive. It is also extremely nit-picky and pedantic.

All those problem "interrupts" share a common theme - additional shooting, fighting and movement at little to no cost for any unit without limitation. And when you look across what else has been causing problem across 8th, you'll find that reliable moving/shooting/fighting twice with the most efficient units in your codex has always caused massive problems - be in or out of sequence.

Agreed here although again you're focusing on competitive play. I'm talking from a fundamental game design paradigm - there is a critical imbalance when one faction is able to fire in the opponents turn while others cannot. It is a poor design ethos.

the_scotsman wrote:
TIL my Harlequins are OP because I can move in the psychic phase and fight twice DDDD

One day you will enter a discussion I have made and communicate like an adult. That day is not today I fear.

Read my OP again, for the second time now.

Almost like arbitrary mechanic additions to singular factions at a time results in imbalanced gameplay.

This is the GW playbook though.

Step 1: Creature relatively solid/simple rules for a new edition.
Step 2: Spend the next 2-4 years systematically breaking these rules by allowing more and more units to ignore them.

This has been the case for the past 10-15-20 years of GW's games.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
We've seen this time and time again but for some reason GW continue to allow certain factions the ability to do things outside of normal phasing.

We all know how Ynarri used to operate and how broken that was. Even with multiple nerfs.

Multiple factions (including my own) can move outside of the movement phase and this tends to lead to a one sided play experience.

Multiple factions (including my own) can fight or shoot on death. Some units do this for free without any CP investment. This ability literally punishes good play. You've managed to get the charge off on my Biker boss? Well played. Shame I'm going to kill you when he dies anyway. At least this ability triggers in the correct phase, however.

For me the worst abilities are those that allow damage outside of the proper phase. It completely ruins the action economy of the game. For example - multiple factions can fire at opponents in their turn if they have the audacity to deep strike. Doesn't this seem counterintuitive? Why would I invest in units with such an ability when they are making themselves targets? The latest offenders (to my knowledge) are Grey Knights, that can now shoot in the psychic phase. Nice one GW, now my screen is utterly pointless and dies before a flood of 2 MW Smites is thrown at my army. How do I counter this, exactly?

My solution? Simple. Remove any and all abilities to act outside of the normal phases of the game. What do you guys think on this? Am I the only one to find these abilities irritating? I get that it leads to a much more flexible game but I feel that in a IGOUGO system it just doesn't allow balance.

Thoughts?

I lost several HQs to Only In Death Does Duty End in a BA vs BA battle a couple of games ago, it was pretty funny when I forgot it a second time. Fight after dying Stratagems are the least problematic of all these IMO. Space Wolves Wulfen that get it all the time on an entire unit is a different thing, getting a favourable melee fight vs them is basically impossible unless you do some pile-in wizardry or something and the CP/pts cost was paid before the game, the only way to win against them is to not play their game and just shoot them silly, which I don't assume is fun for the SW player. With the Stratagems I mentioned before your opponent is both losing a unit and spending CP so it doesn't feel as bad, having the CP cost be appropriate and your opponent be aware of the option are the two keys to making it fair and fun to play against. Shoot twice or fight twice Stratagems are way worse. I have had number of close games against Warp-timed Primarchs so I'm not sure I agree with your premise that it generally leads to skewed games, I think any unbalanced unit or Stratagem can lead to unbalanced games. Whether you're re-rolling failed hits and wounds with Destroyers, getting a double-firepower SAG with a Big Mek and shooting it twice, getting flat 3 damage with a Leman Russ and firing 12 shots against a Vehicle or firing your Dark Reapers when your opponent DS in LOS of your Farseer, I think it can all lead to similarly bad experiences because damage is hiked to absurd levels for a relatively low cost. The absolute most a Stratagem should be worth is 50 pts IMO, but sometimes you're getting 100+ pts per CP spent and that throws games out of whack. I bet it isn't the 5-man Scout units shooting 10 bolter shots at -1 to hit for 2CP at your 30 Boyz that is a big problem.

Also, the difference between my Lord picking up my unit and moving it at the end of the Movement phase and your psyker doing it after you go to psychic phase and successfully pass a test to do it? Not that large IMO. As far as the overwatch thing goes it can feel a little silly when I spend two minutes trying to find a spot where I am within 12" of something while being more than 12" from anything I don't want to shoot me, ask if my opponent wants to Auspex Scan and it wasn't even on their mind. Warp Time and Da Jump are some of the best psychic powers in the game, maybe they need a nerf if you wanted the game to be perfectly internally balanced and/or wanted units to be less killy in general, I think it's a good thing they exist. I don't think players should have 40 Stratagems, I think it's not knowing your opponent has a surprise charge/shoot/fight/recycle stratagem that's the unfun part, not them being able to do it in the first place.

The counter to someone killing your screen before it has finished its job is to have a second screen.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Counterpoint : Deathmarks.

Deathmarks have the ability to "interrupt" a deepstrike and attack the incoming unit.

Deathmarks are also a little gakky and Necrons are on the weak end.

Its almost as if there are more factors than out of phase rules.

Never had a good round of Deathmark shooting? It can make people a little sad as they pick up the character they just DS before it got to do anything, but I don't think Deathmarks are a problem if your opponent knows what they can do they can prepare themselves and act accordingly. Neither fun nor performance is guaranteed in 40k, the only way to guarantee good games is to make them about something more than the models and dice on the table.

Meh, had a long post typed up and accidentally close the browser... so this one is a bit shorter

My general point is that Auspex Scan is problematic because it's basically the same as the Showin' off or Kustom Ammo stratagems, both two insanely powerful stratagems in the ork codex, only kept in check by the high effort to make use of them - high cost units with low durability, additional gretchin or tellyporta CP, a specialist detachment and relic slot or a specific culture
In an army full of great durable shooting units, there is no reason to not use Auspex Scan when someone deep strikes near you - especially since you always have that option with zero previous investment.
Inquisitor Coteaz provides a free auspex scan to an ORDO MALLEUS unit within 6" of him. Not a problem from a balance perspective, because none of the ORDO MALLEUS units are great at shooting - worst case it's an odd landraider variant from FW. Auspex Scan, on the other hand, can affect anything from scouts to terminators and tacticals to helblasters, devastators, centurions or interceptors. If the stratagem was limited to scouts, land speeders and phobos units (you know, actual reconnaissance units), it would probably not even have appeared on this thread.

As for the GK power, I have not played against new GK, so I'll reserve my judgement on that. However, I think the worst they can do is shoot six combi-bolters and fours special weapons twice. Considering how powers can fail or be denied, the psykers with, I somehow doubt it's worse than anything using endless cacophony. The synergy with clearing the smites is probably intended, but not really that much different from me using burna bommers to clear a path through screening units for my warbikers.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You're confusing 'imbalanced' with 'OP' or even 'competitive'. One does not mean the other. Something can be imbalanced and not competitive. It is also extremely nit-picky and pedantic.

I agree that competitiveness depends on the context. However, something that is imbalanced but not competitive is just a bad unit. Balance is the sweet spot between too powerful and too weak. And therefore I disagree that acting out of turn is imbalanced, as we have plenty example of units and factions despite having access to interrupts.

Agreed here although again you're focusing on competitive play. I'm talking from a fundamental game design paradigm - there is a critical imbalance when one faction is able to fire in the opponents turn while others cannot. It is a poor design ethos.

That is not true. A game can very much be balanced despite one side having access to things the other doesn't. The two StarCrafts and AoE2 work on that very principle, all three exemplars of game balance.
Auspex Scan is just one way to combat deep strikes, and everyone should have one way to do that. Be it "can't deep strike here" bubbles, vast amounts of gretchin blocking landing areas, forward scouts or just deep striking on top of someone who has arrived from deep strike. As usual, the issue is that marines have all the options while many others have none.
Free shooting is what makes Auspex Scan good, not the timing.

I don't think it is the out-of-phase or double action in itself that is necessarily problematic.

Ynnari was never broken or even particularly strong with Drukhari or Harlequins, etc...



The problem comes in when you can get "double value" out of stacked buffs and bonuses. E.g. in the old Ynnari case, getting "double value" out of Jinx, Doom, Guide, Empower, etc.. by allowing units to "double dip" into the benefits of these Craftworld buffs by double-actions instead of only benefitting once. E.g. Doom is twice as useful a spell, if your Dark Reapers can shoot twice. Empower is twice as useful for your Shining Spears, if they get to fight twice.

Which is why Ynnari IN COMBINATION with buff-heavy craftworld builds was problematic.



That same problem exists in other armies with double actions, whether it's in or out of phase. Slaanesh Obliterators or so getting the double benefit from VotLW, Prescience, etc.. is just the same issue for example, and IMO it'd be much better if you'd have to pay for Vets twice, or only get to benefit from Prescience during one activation, etc..

 Jidmah wrote:
My general point is that Auspex Scan is problematic because it's basically the same as the Showin' off or Kustom Ammo stratagems, both two insanely powerful stratagems in the ork codex, only kept in check by the high effort to make use of them - high cost units with low durability, additional gretchin or tellyporta CP, a specialist detachment and relic slot or a specific culture
In an army full of great durable shooting units, there is no reason to not use Auspex Scan when someone deep strikes near you - especially since you always have that option with zero previous investment.

I don't think Ork shoot twice Stratagems are kept in check, they're clearly outside the internal balance curve of the Ork faction from my understanding of Orks.

Taking a big unit of SM is an investment in various Stratagems, generally, min-size is king, when your opponent is taking a big unit part of that investment is going into Auspex, part is going into double RF, part is going into fight interruption etc. etc. A unit of 5 Intercessors kill 18 pts worth of Boyz for 2 CP, that's an atrocious rate. Add re-rolls to hit and 1s to wound and you've got 31 which is still under-par for what you expect from a competitive Stratagem. 61 with a big unit of Intercessors is quite strong, but requires that investment in bigger units and staying in aura range.

Space Marines do have too many Stratagems and maybe Auspex Scan is one of the ones that ought to be removed or locked behind a 1CP paywall in a Specialist Detachment.

 vict0988 wrote:
I don't think Ork shoot twice Stratagems are kept in check, they're clearly outside the internal balance curve of the Ork faction from my understanding of Orks.

Not really. Showin' off is usually used by shoota boyz, lootas and tank bustas. Vanilla loota's shooting is worth about 8 points per model and they were hot garbage before the codex. With showin' off and grot shields they have become a good unit despite the models or the price themselves changing. Paying 17 points per model is a fair price for what you get, including the option of the stratagem. It's similar for shoota boyz, where shooting twice is basically just making them worth their points.
Tank bustas were already decent on their own, but they suffer from being glass cannons, as their low range makes providing them with grot shields difficult. So unlike lootas, you get one use out them and then put them back into the case. If you are not targeting vehicles with them, their damage also drops considerably - from one dead knight to six dead primaris.
The SSAG and maybe a Morkanaut are the only ones worth using Kustom Ammo on, and they require a specialist detachment. Shooting the SSAG twice is just buying another lottery ticket which has a 50% chance of dealing 0 damage, shooting a Morkanaut twice is great fun, but good look keeping it alive that long and actually dealing meaningful damage to anything.

In general, if you want to shoot something twice, you must put one of those 225+ point units in your list, dedicate a detachment to the bad moons clan/dread mob specialist detachment and keep the safe with CP, gretchin and KFF until you can actually use them. If your list isn't build to use them, you won't be shooting anything twice.

In that light, many other shooting units wich cannot be shot twice, like flashgits, dakkajets, buggies and mek guns still make an appearance, so I think the internal balance of orks is pretty good - just not on top competitive levels.

Taking a big unit of SM is an investment in various Stratagems, generally, min-size is king, when your opponent is taking a big unit part of that investment is going into Auspex, part is going into double RF, part is going into fight interruption etc. etc. A unit of 5 Intercessors kill 18 pts worth of Boyz for 2 CP, that's an atrocious rate. Add re-rolls to hit and 1s to wound and you've got 31 which is still under-par for what you expect from a competitive Stratagem. 61 with a big unit of Intercessors is quite strong, but requires that investment in bigger units and staying in aura range.

Those intercessors could be aggressors though, which probably haven't moved this turn. And suddenly it's one dead unit of boys for 2CP.
Which kind of is the problem - how do make a stratagem that is fair to be used on both aggressors and intercessors?