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Spoletta wrote:
A unit is scary because it is mathematically so, not because i'm being told. If that unit can delete whatever i bring to the middle to contest the objective, i cannot go to the middle. Simple as that.

It really isn't though. If Gulliman is holding the middle, I charge him with 20 pox walkers and take him out of the game. DW knights can just be shot off the objective or decimated to a point where they aren't scary. Or I just walk up one grot to within 3" of the objective and take it from them for a turn.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
A unit is scary because it is mathematically so, not because i'm being told. If that unit can delete whatever i bring to the middle to contest the objective, i cannot go to the middle. Simple as that.

It really isn't though. If Gulliman is holding the middle, I charge him with 20 pox walkers and take him out of the game. DW knights can just be shot off the objective or decimated to a point where they aren't scary. Or I just walk up one grot to within 3" of the objective and take it from them for a turn.

Considering that you can't do the grot thing in most missions, and that i said that it works if you put them out of LoS, i guess that you are supporting my point.

You either can challenge them with something bigger, or you need to chaff it.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
A unit is scary because it is mathematically so, not because i'm being told. If that unit can delete whatever i bring to the middle to contest the objective, i cannot go to the middle. Simple as that.

It really isn't though. If Gulliman is holding the middle, I charge him with 20 pox walkers and take him out of the game. DW knights can just be shot off the objective or decimated to a point where they aren't scary. Or I just walk up one grot to within 3" of the objective and take it from them for a turn.

Good point about Gman. I will never forget a year ago my opponent pinned down my Guilliman with 2 units of 9 Nurglings from Turn 2 till Turn 5. That was the era when Guilliman's weapon are all Dmg3 and shock assault was not exist, which means Gman at most kill 6 bases of Nurglings per battle rounds, combined by the amazing 5++ from my opponent rolling (iirc he rolled 50% or above on the saving throw of the Nurglings), Guilliman was not going anywhere, and he can only watch helplessly when the rest of the Ultramarines got tabled by those Daemon Princes and Deamon Engines.

Now with his fist being Dmg4, and he got 7A when being charged, making him a total 13 attacks for one battle round. He might have a chance to breakout that trap faster, but provided he need to land every attacks, and every hit wounds, and every 5++ saves failed. So realistically, 18 Nurglings should still be able to jam Guilliman for MORE THAN 2 BATTLE ROUNDS .

Conclusion? Guilliman is not scary if you understand his weakness and have the tool to deal with him.

Spoletta wrote:
Considering that you can't do the grot thing in most missions, and that i said that it works if you put them out of LoS, i guess that you are supporting my point.

Why wouldn't I be able to do that in any mission? On top of that, if your knights kill 10 gretchin every turn for 4 turns, you'd still have nothing to show for your points.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Considering that you can't do the grot thing in most missions, and that i said that it works if you put them out of LoS, i guess that you are supporting my point.

Why wouldn't I be able to do that in any mission? On top of that, if your knights kill 10 gretchin every turn for 4 turns, you'd still have nothing to show for your points.

Moving a troop to a point and deny the objective?

That only works in 2 out of 6 missions, with end of round and start of turn scoring that strategy doesn't work.

Also, i was the one that said that you have to find a way to chaff them to solve the situation, so why is everyone saying "But you can chaff them!!!"? I know that you can if you have the right units, it was my point!

I'm not discussing wheter you can deny the center of the map with a properly positioned assault unit, you can objectively do so, i have seen it done at all levels of play so it's not a matter of discussion, it is a matter of fact. I was just reporting this to you.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Until GW nerfs tri-point.

If they were going to do that wouldn't they have done it with this FAQ?

There's always 9th ed. Or September FAQ. Or any random anything from these guys. Melee hangs on by a gamey unintended thread imo. Tripoint is the only counter to fall back and its a total accident of rules wording.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Punisher wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Until GW nerfs tri-point.

I doubt GW wants assault to feel more pointless. Were almost in full gunline as is, and with tau picking up steam in the meta it's just going to swing further from assault.

I bet they think it's still dominant.

In 9th I can see them letting anyone fall back from anyone, but at the cost of the unit(s) you're falling back from getting a free attack sequence on you as you fall back. If they are really committed to letting units fall back out of melee, this seems the best way to do it. Right now the fundamental problem with balancing melee is that falling back is so automatically the best choice in the vast majority of situations.

This would be a massive change for the better, but it's the sort of thing that fundamentally changes the game and requires rebalancing pretty much every single unit in the game, so you're not going to see it before a new edition comes out.

That won't do a thing to help. All the gunline cares about is being able to target the melee units. The gunline PREFERS their unit to being dead over not being able to target.

It wouldn't solve the issue completely, no. But it'd allow you to wipe their unit on their movement phase, followed by a consolidation move. Thereby guaranteeing the charging unit two rounds of fighting (unless the first one wipes the unit), even if you got shot to pieces afterward.

And it'd change things significantly if you managed to get into combat with something other than a screen. Right now if you tag someone's tank they just fall back; if you got a full new round of fighting against it, you'd at least have more of a chance to make back your points.

If nothing else, it'd force castles to leave more space in-between layers, and it'd stop a lot of the weird skewing that occurs in the current system, where fly units are unintentionally powerful, everything focuses around the wrap-and-trap gimmick, where you actively hope your enemy doesn't fail their morale check, etc etc. You could balance combat much more directly, without all these unintentional skews.

I mean I agree, conceptually I preferred the old days when you couldn't fall back out of combat period. But I doubt those days are coming back.

IMHO most decent meele strats are about an alpha strike that crippels the defender that badly that they can´t recover in propper time.

That said there is an unit that qualifies fairly well for a decent melee unit that hasn´t been named yet.
Khorne Berzerker

to be fair I play Alpha Legion and therefore have multiple tools to make them work but on paper they are what I from a melee unit.
They have the quantity as well as the quality of attacks they need to chew trough most units, can´t attack twice and even have "proper" defensiv stats.
You can even buff them fairly easily with a DA, sorcerer or EC. Even tough buffing Berzerks with warptrickery feels wrong

In a recent game against melee-focused World Eaters, I shot the entire army off the board in two turns without even trying. With orks. Rhinos with champions, zerkers and apostles were the first things to go.

If you can't shoot or have some way to not get shot, you are worthless.

Martel732 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Until GW nerfs tri-point.

If they were going to do that wouldn't they have done it with this FAQ?

There's always 9th ed. Or September FAQ. Or any random anything from these guys. Melee hangs on by a gamey unintended thread imo. Tripoint is the only counter to fall back and its a total accident of rules wording.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Punisher wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Until GW nerfs tri-point.

I doubt GW wants assault to feel more pointless. Were almost in full gunline as is, and with tau picking up steam in the meta it's just going to swing further from assault.

I bet they think it's still dominant.

I though tripoint was working as intended.

As far as 9th I have to ask if that ws a change they made in AoS 2nd. If they didn't I wouldn't expect it. I imagine that's the direction 9th will follow.

Has anyone mentioned deep-strike charges on turn 1? Because I miss that in competitive games. Being able to throw a mess of Hormagaunts piggy-backing off Trygons was great.

Being able to defeat overwatch is also important though.

And being able to kill stuff (I'm looking at you, hormies).

Tripoint is exactly the kind of thing GW claims to not want in the game.

Zuwi wrote:
IMHO most decent meele strats are about an alpha strike that crippels the defender that badly that they can´t recover in propper time.

That said there is an unit that qualifies fairly well for a decent melee unit that hasn´t been named yet.
Khorne Berzerker

to be fair I play Alpha Legion and therefore have multiple tools to make them work but on paper they are what I from a melee unit.
They have the quantity as well as the quality of attacks they need to chew trough most units, can´t attack twice and even have "proper" defensiv stats.
You can even buff them fairly easily with a DA, sorcerer or EC. Even tough buffing Berzerks with warptrickery feels wrong

If you can provide proof of them doing well in tournaments I'd love to know, the units I mentioned have all made it to top 4 at a 30+ player tournament in 8th. I played a game against a guy who said they were amazing, but I'm not sure if he played them correctly, he wasn't using it in our particular game and I was kind of zoned out after the game and might simply have not listened well enough to understand whether his tactics were genuine.

I wouldn't say berzerkers have good defensive stats.

Martel732 wrote:
Tripoint is exactly the kind of thing GW claims to not want in the game.

I have no idea where they said that. I cut them from most of my social media feed last year do you have anything you could link? I've never read anything about that on the forums prior to today.

And in that case if they get rid of tripoint I am all in favor of a free round of chopping at any unit trying to fall back from combat.

I'm talking about over the years. GW hasn't said anything specifically about tripointing, but it seems like the kind of thing they would get rid of on a whim because they don't like it.

 warhead01 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tripoint is exactly the kind of thing GW claims to not want in the game.

I have no idea where they said that. I cut them from most of my social media feed last year do you have anything you could link? I've never read anything about that on the forums prior to today.

And in that case if they get rid of tripoint I am all in favor of a free round of chopping at any unit trying to fall back from combat.

Flyer move blocking is one example. I think removing tripoint from matched play would be a mistake, it's an interesting part of the game, it's really poor for thematic play, but nothing is preventing you from creating a house rule that says you can move through enemy units while falling back. In addition, any units you fall back from cannot be targeted by shooting weapons this turn.

 Jidmah wrote:
In a recent game against melee-focused World Eaters, I shot the entire army off the board in two turns without even trying. With orks. Rhinos with champions, zerkers and apostles were the first things to go.

If you can't shoot or have some way to not get shot, you are worthless.

So what you're saying is, you took a competitively optimized shooting ork list against some poor sod playing World Eaters? And do you feel good about that life choice? LMAO

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking about over the years. GW hasn't said anything specifically about tripointing, but it seems like the kind of thing they would get rid of on a whim because they don't like it.

I was really worried I had missed something important! which would be just like me.

In my own experience assaulting I don't think the unit is as important as how you put that unit into action. I plan my assaults so that I have a 3 to 1 advantage every time if I am playing with assaulting as my heavy hitting goal for that game. This means , being Orks, a large mob trying to tag several smaller opposing units while being supported by several other smaller units to allow me to leverage a lot of options and swing lots and lots of times. So 30 or 40 boys supported by Kommandos, deff koptas, Nobs, a waaaagh banner and what ever else I can coordinate to get in the fight but the fight is planned. It also is dependent on what I am up against. In the early days of 8th the other player was razorbacks and command characters for rerolls. Knowing this my plan was just to bottle them up and give them a thrashing. Tag and surround as many units as I could keep them locked in, taking away their option of retreating and shooting or move forward. while I also brought up my back field to reinforce my assault, take objectives and kill off their other units I wasn't able to bottle up. It's more about the army list I put together than any single unit. It's worked well for me. I have no single best assault unit choice in my lists. I use several low cost units in small size working together for flexibility combine with a wall of meat to take the brunt of the damage.
No idea if that would still work with the Ork codex haven't tried it. Probably would still work.

Sorry, what's "tri-point"?

Nurglitch wrote:
Sorry, what's "tri-point"?

Surrounding one model with three models so that there are three openings but all openings are smaller than the base of the tri-pointed model. This means that unless the model can move through or over enemy units it cannot be moved, which means its entire unit cannot fall back.

 vict0988 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Sorry, what's "tri-point"?

Surrounding one model with three models so that there are three openings but all openings are smaller than the base of the tri-pointed model. This means that unless the model can move through or over enemy units it cannot be moved, which means its entire unit cannot fall back.

Thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So why aren't stuff like Wyches more popular. They prevented stuff from falling back when 8th started.

 vict0988 wrote:

Zuwi wrote:
IMHO most decent meele strats are about an alpha strike that crippels the defender that badly that they can´t recover in propper time.

That said there is an unit that qualifies fairly well for a decent melee unit that hasn´t been named yet.
Khorne Berzerker

to be fair I play Alpha Legion and therefore have multiple tools to make them work but on paper they are what I from a melee unit.
They have the quantity as well as the quality of attacks they need to chew trough most units, can´t attack twice and even have "proper" defensiv stats.
You can even buff them fairly easily with a DA, sorcerer or EC. Even tough buffing Berzerks with warptrickery feels wrong

If you can provide proof of them doing well in tournaments I'd love to know, the units I mentioned have all made it to top 4 at a 30+ player tournament in 8th. I played a game against a guy who said they were amazing, but I'm not sure if he played them correctly, he wasn't using it in our particular game and I was kind of zoned out after the game and might simply have not listened well enough to understand whether his tactics were genuine.

At the start of 8th whenthe AL / RG base codex stratagem didn't get nefed into the ground, there indeed were lists of AL rellying on zerker blobs infiltrated forward with icons to just smash things.
It was of course, atmost 50 / 50 but there were these lists.

Nowadays, i'd recommend not really to do it, yeah sure you "can " now again shock A unit in as AL. but tbf, why shock in a melee unit, that can't leave and just dies, when i instead can redeploy a nuit instead, save another unit like obliterators, etc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Sorry, what's "tri-point"?

Surrounding one model with three models so that there are three openings but all openings are smaller than the base of the tri-pointed model. This means that unless the model can move through or over enemy units it cannot be moved, which means its entire unit cannot fall back.

Thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So why aren't stuff like Wyches more popular. They prevented stuff from falling back when 8th started.

Wyches were bad, because of beeing rather overpriced for what they offered.

Okay. I think it would have been good to see more mechanics like that sprinkled throughout the game, like on Tyranid Lashwhips and so on.

Nurglitch wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Sorry, what's "tri-point"?

Surrounding one model with three models so that there are three openings but all openings are smaller than the base of the tri-pointed model. This means that unless the model can move through or over enemy units it cannot be moved, which means its entire unit cannot fall back.

Thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So why aren't stuff like Wyches more popular. They prevented stuff from falling back when 8th started.

Wyches are squishy and you can get the same effect without paying the Wych premium with the tri-point trick, Wyches did see some top-level success, I forgot to mention those. Wyches are very squishy, that's their main weakness, I still believe you can make still make them work. The Slaanesh HQ that prevents units from falling back has been very popular in top level play and was found in most Chaos soup lists, I'm not sure if they're run as much any longer.

I was thinking wouldn't Tripoint be intentional, I think it is, it is in a way a buff for models with the fly rule which can just leave combat. It helps those models stand out over models that are just on foot. Just a thought.

 warhead01 wrote:
I was thinking wouldn't Tripoint be intentional, I think it is, it is in a way a buff for models with the fly rule which can just leave combat. It helps those models stand out over models that are just on foot. Just a thought.

GW possibly didn't even see the option of piling/consolidating into units you didn't charge, I doubt they saw it coming, before the launch of 8th they said melee hadn't really changed. GW said they didn't see using two flamer Stratagems on the same unit in the same turn coming, I don't know what they actually see coming, except things that aren't coming because it's illegal within their ruleset like charging out of a vehicle after it has moved.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but it's pretty lame that (unlike shooting units) assault units want to NOT kill too much stuff.