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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane is Pre-Horus. Gman is Pre-horus (I know he was in Stasis) Kaldor is pre-Horus I think? Bjorn the Fellhanded is pre-horus. The leader of the Custodes is pre-horus I want to say? The Dark Angels have a few survivors of the Great Crusade, Cypher? Dante is 1100 years and kicking ass.

Ragnar is not. That's just completely wrong.

Dante is the oldest living space marine, and was (as of Devastation of Baal) visibly and physical aged to the point that it was actually affecting his combat ability and he hid his elderly face from all but a few.
Then he ate his equerry (in fairness, it was his equerry's idea), going full vampire, and was rejuvenated. It might be worth noting that he had avoided drinking blood for an unknown length of time, but his general longevity may well be a factor of the Blood Angels totally being vampires now (rather than having a blood related flaw), and an outlier unachievable by other legions and chapters. (Barring warp shenanigans and dreadnought stasis)

Voss wrote:

Then he ate his equerry (in fairness, it was his equerry's idea), going full vampire, and was rejuvenated.

See! Space vamperism. That's hardly fair! Hacks! I call HAX!

 LordofHats wrote:

Voss wrote:

Then he ate his equerry (in fairness, it was his equerry's idea), going full vampire, and was rejuvenated.

See! Space vamperism. That's hardly fair! Hacks! I call HAX!

Yeah. DoB felt really cheap for a lot of reasons.

Er - no.. Primarch's didn't get a 'treatment' - they were 'born' pre-treated! (In fact they are the treatment.)

In the words of Shrike from TTS:

"That man [Colonel Straken] should have been a space marine.]

Just saying that would be awesome, but on the other hand, Marneus Calgar went from normal SM to primaris marine, and he wasn't young at all, so I mean theoretically is it maybe possible, perhaps, but is it likely, no.

Alternatively, I am curious to know if perhaps being interred within a dreadnought (or the like) is possible for mortal humans, I mean we have things like mortifiers and penitient engines, which aren't dreadnoughts I know, but I mean for the Imperium of man, interring it's most legendary, non SM heroes within a dreadnought, (malcador, yarrick, stracken, etc) seems like something they would do.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Ragnar Blackmane is Pre-Horus.

Um, nope. Ragnar is actually the YOUNGEST Wolf Lord (that's kind of his thing), which means, unless every Wolf Lord (and presumably several other Space Wolves) is also an HH veteran, Ragnar can't have been around during the Heresy.

And no, no Wolf Lords or other Space Wolves (bar 1, in a Dreadnought, and the remnants of the 13th Great Company, who were trapped in the Warp) are HH veterans.

Gman is Pre-horus (I know he was in Stasis)

Obviously, but he's both a Primarch, and was in stasis. He's hardly a case for regular Space Marines.

Kaldor is pre-Horus I think?

No, he's not. Kaldor was a basic Battle Brother in 799.M41. Unless he stayed as a basic GK for over 10000 years with no promotion, and then in the space of a few hundred, became the highest ranking GK, there's no way he was around during the Heresy.

Bjorn the Fellhanded is pre-horus.

And also a Dreadnought. That's the important part - he's essentially hooked up to permanent life support, not a normal Marine.

The leader of the Custodes is pre-horus I want to say?

Trajann? Likely, but they're not a Space Marine - they're Custodes, which are far beyond what a Space Marine is.

The Dark Angels have a few survivors of the Great Crusade, Cypher?

Those are the Fallen, not true Dark Angels - and they've also been using the Warp, which has likely had an influence on their perception of time.

Dante is 1100 years and kicking ass.

And is regarded as the oldest Space Marine who isn't interred in a Dreadnought.

Point is, there is no clearly set life time for a Space Marine.

True, but the oldest non-Dreadnoughted Marine is Dante - and even he himself admits he's getting far too old for this.

However, note that Dante has been Chapter Master for 1100 years - that means he was a Captain, Veteran, Sergeant, Marine, Scout, etc etc for an even LONGER period beforehand, which likely puts his age at 1400, unless the previous Chapter Master also lived for an exceptionally long period of time (which is noted as a trait of Blood Angels).

As to the main topic, Vulkan, Dorn, and pretty much every primarch was way past puberty when they were given the treatment. Horus I think was about 50, or much older than his brothers? Maybe not Horus, Magnus?

Primarchs aren't Space Marines. Primarchs were born/created at conception to be special, not "given treatment" as developed children/adolescents/adults. Before the Emperor found the Primarchs on the worlds they were scattered on, they were already enhanced - the Emperor finding them changed nothing in that regard.

From what I remember a Marine is immortal in the sense that they don't die of age and if you left them on a farm and nothing bad happened they would be there in thousands of years. But they do degrade in performance and because they constantly war they all die from that.
The end effect is that only people like Dante and Sigismund who maxed their badass stat get really old.

Voss wrote:

but his general longevity may well be a factor of the Blood Angels totally being vampires now (rather than having a blood related flaw), and an outlier unachievable by other legions and chapters. (Barring warp shenanigans and dreadnought stasis)

Yea, the BA lore can get a bit silly at times.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Bjorn the Fellhanded is pre-horus.

And also a Dreadnought. That's the important part - he's essentially hooked up to permanent life support, not a normal Marine

More importantly is the fact that he is kept in stasis when not "in use".


In regards to Sigismund (Black Legion):

pm713 wrote:
From what I remember a Marine is immortal in the sense that they don't die of age and if you left them on a farm and nothing bad happened they would be there in thousands of years. But they do degrade in performance and because they constantly war they all die from that.
The end effect is that only people like Dante and Sigismund who maxed their badass stat get really old.

I dont think that anyone doubts the fact that they can get to an incredibile age if allowed to. But I dont believe them to be biologically immortal.

pm713 wrote:
From what I remember a Marine is immortal in the sense that they don't die of age and if you left them on a farm and nothing bad happened they would be there in thousands of years.

Yes - Oberdeii, for example (and wasn't there a Heresy Era Salamander who was left chained up for thousands of years?).

Yea there’s a 10,000 year old Salamander in the first of the Salamanders trilogy. He can’t move and can barely talk, but he’s still alive. In fact he’s been unable to move for so long his armour is fused to his seat.

phillv85 wrote:
Yea there’s a 10,000 year old Salamander in the first of the Salamanders trilogy. He can’t move and can barely talk, but he’s still alive. In fact he’s been unable to move for so long his armour is fused to his seat.

To me, that indicates that space marines are incredibly long lived, but not biologically immortal.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gravius

"Gravius was the Captain of the Salamanders Legion's 5th Company, during the Great Crusade and he took part in the Conquest of One-Five-Four Four with his friend, Captain Heka'tan[1]. As the Horus Heresy unfolded, both Captains would take part in the war against the Traitor Legions on Isstvan V, but when the Dropsite Massacre began[2], Gravius was one of the few Salamanders to escape. In the Massacre's aftermath, he took command of a Salamanders warship, but it was shot down by the Traitors and crash landed on the fiery world Scoria. The impact caused the warship to be buried beneath Scoria's surface and Garvius and his forces played no further part in the Horus Heresy. They remained forgotten on Scoria for millennia and eventually the Captain's fellow Battle Brothers died, leaving him to keep watch as his body slowly withered away. Garvius was not alone though, as the crew of the warship colonized the area around the crash site and their descendants came to revere the Captain[3a]. Eventually though Gravius refused to leave his warship's command chair and in time the door leading to the bridge was sealed. This led Gravius to become a myth to the warship's colony, as one of the Fire Angels that watched over them.[3b]

In M41, Gravius was found alive by fellow Salamanders from the Chapter's 3rd Company, but the Captain was now in a horrifically withered and frail state. By that time Scoria was dying, as its numerous volcanoes would not stop erupting and were quickly tearing the world apart. Though the 3rd Company wished to take Gravius with them, before they left the doomed world, the Captain' power armour had long ago become fused to his command chair. With time running out, the 3rd Company tried to learn of the Legion's history from the Captain, but Garvius' mind had become addled and he remembered little from his vast lifespan[3a]. Eventually the Company's Apothecary, Fugis, was ordered to give Gravius the Emperor's Mercy and he then extracted the Captain's Gene-seed[3c]. The Company then escaped Scoria with the crashed warship's surviving colonists, as well as the power armours of Gravius' fallen Battle Brothers[3d]. At the time of his death, Garvius was possibly the oldest living Space Marine in the Galaxy.[3c]"


Can anyone confirm this to be true?

It’s all in the first Salamanders book. His battle brothers died in combat against the Orks, not of old age.

phillv85 wrote:
It’s all in the first Salamanders book. His battle brothers died in combat against the Orks, not of old age.

Did he sit on the chair for thousands of years without eating?

Either that or gnawing on his surroundings. Astartes can eat just about anything after all.

He might have been in a sus-an coma when they found him - I can't remember.

There's also possibly Rylanor, but he's a Dreadnought and we don't know exactly when he died.

Dante is very long-lived in a chapter that is noted to be uniquely long-lived. So Dante at 1100 is as long-lived as they come. Most other chapters see 300 years as being "old". I'd put the max "natural" age of most marines at a few centuries. 3-4 being typical. Space Marines are not immortal.

beast_gts wrote:
He might have been in a sus-an coma when they found him - I can't remember. .

That's about the only thing that would have it make even vaguely make sense. But sometimes I feel like 40k authors try to top each other with absurdities.

As far as marines being biologically immortal, in the Perturabo Primarch Book, we see the Hurd using time acceleration weapons on humans and Legionnaires. It’s noted by Astartes characters that the Hurd put the lie to the supposed Marine neigh immortality, as their weapons are capable of aging the Legionnaires to death just like their baseline human Auxilia, it just took much, much longer.

keep in mind the whole "space marines are immortal" bit mostly comes from the horus heresy where the pldest marines are only 200 and some odd years old. basicly it's a case of "We're 200 years old and haven't aged a day, given our line of work, we're immortal for all intents and purposes"

300 Can't be old for a space Marine. There are regular Humans well over 300 currently in on Terra. Most of the Inquisitors of note are past their 300th year old,Eisenhorn,. Ravenor, Voke. Several members of Eisenhorns staff are or were over 200. His Adept is over 600 years old. His Blank is over 200. Space marines are longer lived then humans with rejuvenat treatments. Without war or disease, the lore clearly shows they can live well into their 1000s.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
300 Can't be old for a space Marine. There are regular Humans well over 300 currently in on Terra. Most of the Inquisitors of note are past their 300th year old,Eisenhorn,. Ravenor, Voke. Several members of Eisenhorns staff are or were over 200. His Adept is over 600 years old. His Blank is over 200. Space marines are longer lived then humans with rejuvenat treatments. Without war or disease, the lore clearly shows they can live well into their 1000s.

300 is considered old because most marines die before they reach that kind of age.

 Andersp90 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
300 Can't be old for a space Marine. There are regular Humans well over 300 currently in on Terra. Most of the Inquisitors of note are past their 300th year old,Eisenhorn,. Ravenor, Voke. Several members of Eisenhorns staff are or were over 200. His Adept is over 600 years old. His Blank is over 200. Space marines are longer lived then humans with rejuvenat treatments. Without war or disease, the lore clearly shows they can live well into their 1000s.

300 is considered old because most marines die before they reach that kind of age.

Yeah.

There are baseline humans who lived thousands of years., Sindermen was an old man at the time of the Heresy, but was still alive during the War of the Beast (albeit at the end of his tech-prolonged life).

The tech certainly exists for people to live helluva long times, and Marines seem to be able to do that when something doesn't blow them up. They just get blown up a lot.

Chaplain Cassius I think is the oldest Ultamarine and he's not even 400.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Chaplain Cassius I think is the oldest Ultamarine and he's not even 400.

Most Ultramarine, including their entire First Company were killed by the Tyranids 250 years before M42. That certainly reduces their chances of being very old when you lose over 80% of your numbers in a single campaign, including your elite. It's a small miracle the Chapter recovered from such a blow. It's a testament to the exceptionnal logistical resilience and skills of the Ultramarine.

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Chaplain Cassius I think is the oldest Ultamarine and he's not even 400.

Most Ultramarine, including their entire First Company were killed by the Tyranids 250 years before M42. That certainly reduces their chances of being very old when you lose over 80% of your numbers in a single campaign, including your elite. It's a small miracle the Chapter recovered from such a blow. It's a testament to the exceptionnal logistical resilience and skills of the Ultramarine.

So Behemoth just killed all the olds? The higher the expected Marine lifespan, the less likely it is for the oldest survivor to have been 180 or 190 at the time of the battle. Calgar was Chapter Master, too, and younger than Cassius.

I feel like Space Marine age has turned into the same debacle as Space Marine height, and it keeps getting inflated. Nine foot tall Space Marines that regularly live a thousand years+

Adults could get enhanced to near Space Marine levels through surgical means in the Heresy era. When the Emperor encounters Lion 'El Johnson and assigns him the Dark Angels, members of The Order, including Luther, are given the surgery.

And anyways, the insipid lore of the Primaris establish that Robutte and Cawl are smarter than the Emperor, so they should be able to get read of the "near Space Marine" limitation of the surgery.

Seeing as how the Primaris can attack almost as well, and shoot better than a Cutsodes, I would say the Big E was't as good as he thought.

Given 10K years, I'm sure the Empreror could have made better Space Marines than he did. Then again, there are very few mass produced products that couldn't be made better if the company took more time to develop them. The Empreror just stopped developing the Space Marines because they were good enough given the time frame he had to work on them.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Seeing as how the Primaris can attack almost as well, and shoot better than a Cutsodes, I would say the Big E was't as good as he thought.

Where is it said that Primaris are better than Custodes?

 alextroy wrote:
Given 10K years, I'm sure the Empreror could have made better Space Marines than he did. Then again, there are very few mass produced products that couldn't be made better if the company took more time to develop them. The Empreror just stopped developing the Space Marines because they were good enough given the time frame he had to work on them.

The idea that the Emperor rushed to start the Great Crusade so left things half done is one of the few things that make sense about him IMO.