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Basically, the rules of 40K need to suit the fluff to some level. Carcharodons spend pretty much all their time killing Nids in deep space. Actually the only time they're not doing this is when they visit prison worlds to exor--erm, request fresh bodies to replenish their ranks. Either that or their searching burned-out worlds hoping to find STC's and other archaeotechfor gear which they can trade with the Admech for gear.

I'd like to see them given strategies and abilities similar to that which Deathwatch have ( such as death to the Alien) or bonuses against Nids such as Grey Knights have against Demons. Special-issue gear/ ammo could also be interesting, given their kit is patchworked a lot of the time.

This fits broadly with the lore, and would make sense.

Well, we know they're Raven Guard successors. The best way to represent their Chapter Tactics is Stealthy + Hungry For Battle. For Strats and Relics though that's a different story.

I really wouldn’t put the Tyranids as that important of an opponent for Carcharodons. They have fought several campaigns against them but they did not fight them enough to make it a defining point of their chapter. In the lore we know, they’re far more known for fighting renegade space marines. The Badab War remains one their largest contributions.

If you want to include rules for special issue weaponry, just run more veteran squads. Deathwatch gets some great stratagems but they come at an expensive points cost. Why take Deathwatch if you can get those bonuses and then some? Also do Tyranids need another kick in the shins right now? The last thing that army needs is more nerfs against it.

As stated above, maybe a relic or warlord trait option would be better. However, we don’t know they’re Raven Guard successors. The author of their book series has openly stated that while there is an answer out there, it has not been proven yet. They could be Raven Guard, but we don’t know that for certain.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well, we know they're Raven Guard successors. The best way to represent their Chapter Tactics is Stealthy + Hungry For Battle. For Strats and Relics though that's a different story.

That's never been confirmed. And they aren't stealthy. They prefer swift, extremely violent assaults, and show no mercy. Which sounds more similar to another legion known for having pale skin and black eyes. In fact I'd say the similarities are quite terrifying.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I really wouldn’t put the Tyranids as that important of an opponent for Carcharodons. They have fought several campaigns against them but they did not fight them enough to make it a defining point of their chapter. In the lore we know, they’re far more known for fighting renegade space marines. The Badab War remains one their largest contributions.

If you want to include rules for special issue weaponry, just run more veteran squads. Deathwatch gets some great stratagems but they come at an expensive points cost. Why take Deathwatch if you can get those bonuses and then some? Also do Tyranids need another kick in the shins right now? The last thing that army needs is more nerfs against it.

As stated above, maybe a relic or warlord trait option would be better. However, we don’t know they’re Raven Guard successors. The author of their book series has openly stated that while there is an answer out there, it has not been proven yet. They could be Raven Guard, but we don’t know that for certain.

Actually, killing Nids is all the sharks do, pretty much. The Badab war is the exception not the rule, and they really only got into conflict with the Night Lords because both factions were after the same thing.

We don't really know if they are RG. They probably are, but it's as yet unconfirmed. It's just as likely they are Chimeric.

I'd love an update to Charcaradons, personally. I understand that they probably have been supported recently by Primaris marines, but their schtick of having old and archaeotech weapons and armor should make taking normal astartes worthwhile.

I'd say a chapter tactic of applying -1LD to every enemy unit within 6" for each Charcaradons unit within 1" of enemy units is a start. maybe adding 1" to advance, charge, pile in, and consolidate in the assault phase. Then bring back the ability for each astartes marine to swap their bolter or bolt pistol for a chainsword, or take one in addition for 1ppm.

It would be a start at least, nothing game breaking.

Mr ghoti wrote:
I'd love an update to Charcaradons, personally. I understand that they probably have been supported recently by Primaris marines, but their schtick of having old and archaeotech weapons and armor should make taking normal astartes worthwhile.

I'd say a chapter tactic of applying -1LD to every enemy unit within 6" for each Charcaradons unit within 1" of enemy units is a start. maybe adding 1" to advance, charge, pile in, and consolidate in the assault phase. Then bring back the ability for each astartes marine to swap their bolter or bolt pistol for a chainsword, or take one in addition for 1ppm.

It would be a start at least, nothing game breaking.

So Night Lords, with a better Codex and more abilities?

Very fair.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Mr ghoti wrote:
I'd love an update to Charcaradons, personally. I understand that they probably have been supported recently by Primaris marines, but their schtick of having old and archaeotech weapons and armor should make taking normal astartes worthwhile.

I'd say a chapter tactic of applying -1LD to every enemy unit within 6" for each Charcaradons unit within 1" of enemy units is a start. maybe adding 1" to advance, charge, pile in, and consolidate in the assault phase. Then bring back the ability for each astartes marine to swap their bolter or bolt pistol for a chainsword, or take one in addition for 1ppm.

It would be a start at least, nothing game breaking.

So Night Lords, with a better Codex and more abilities?

Very fair.

Well, it's very possible they actually are night lords, so....

It basically comes as close to saying they are without actually saying it in Red Tithe.

Roberts84 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Mr ghoti wrote:
I'd love an update to Charcaradons, personally. I understand that they probably have been supported recently by Primaris marines, but their schtick of having old and archaeotech weapons and armor should make taking normal astartes worthwhile.

I'd say a chapter tactic of applying -1LD to every enemy unit within 6" for each Charcaradons unit within 1" of enemy units is a start. maybe adding 1" to advance, charge, pile in, and consolidate in the assault phase. Then bring back the ability for each astartes marine to swap their bolter or bolt pistol for a chainsword, or take one in addition for 1ppm.

It would be a start at least, nothing game breaking.

So Night Lords, with a better Codex and more abilities?

Very fair.

Well, it's very possible they actually are night lords, so....

It basically comes as close to saying they are without actually saying it in Red Tithe.

And that has what to do with giving them better rules than Night Lords?

Similar, thematic rules would be fine... Kinda. (SM are vastly more powerful than CSM, so that's an issue, but that's hardly chapter specific.) But better rules on a better chassis is just gak.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Mr ghoti wrote:
I'd love an update to Charcaradons, personally. I understand that they probably have been supported recently by Primaris marines, but their schtick of having old and archaeotech weapons and armor should make taking normal astartes worthwhile.

I'd say a chapter tactic of applying -1LD to every enemy unit within 6" for each Charcaradons unit within 1" of enemy units is a start. maybe adding 1" to advance, charge, pile in, and consolidate in the assault phase. Then bring back the ability for each astartes marine to swap their bolter or bolt pistol for a chainsword, or take one in addition for 1ppm.

It would be a start at least, nothing game breaking.

So Night Lords, with a better Codex and more abilities?

Very fair.

Exactly, just like Imperial Fists are just Iron Warriors with a better codex and more abilities.

GW has its own issues with CSM. Too focused on daemon engines rather than making them 30k legions in 40k.

Argh, yeah I dig them because they're probably Night Lords successors, but don't just make them Night Lords + while leaving the real McCoy in "gw can't figure out how to represent the traitor legions " hell.

Bad enough they stole terror squads and turned them into fething primaris.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr ghoti wrote:
GW has its own issues with CSM. Too focused on daemon engines rather than making them 30k legions in 40k.

So maybe they should address those issues before making even more rules for loyalists, ya'think?

Isn't there a -1 Ld trait in the build-your-own-chapter section of the marine codex? Could always just use that + a melee buff. Maybe throw in a little something extra as a -1 ld aura isn't very good and you're presumably giving up on some sort of super doctrine to be locked into it.


I'm not a fan of making a faction's "thing" anti-tyranid rules. Rules that only kick in against one specific faction are generally kind of a bad idea. GK and aeldari kind of get away with it by having drawbacks to go along with their advantages (a morale penalty for eldar, and that auto-rez strat for daemons), but I'm not sure daemon players are generally excited to face down GK with better-than-usual smites. Death Watch can kind of get away with it by having anti-specific-faction rules for all the xenos factions in the game plus flexible special ammo that happens to also be good against imperial and chaos units.

But like, no one takes the craftworld relic that's basically a powersword with a bonus versus orks. I've yet to see anyone take the custom chapter trait that only works against a specific faction. Ditto the craftworld trait that makes you better vs chaos. If you play against any other faction, you're basically missing out on rules. If you do play against that faction, you risk coming across as list tailoring. Unless you bake in a downside to go with the upside, a faction-specific rule will make your chapter either feel like it's missing rules or else be so powerful without those faction-specific rules that it feels OP when it faces it's preferred enemy.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well, we know they're Raven Guard successors. The best way to represent their Chapter Tactics is Stealthy + Hungry For Battle. For Strats and Relics though that's a different story.

That's never been confirmed. And they aren't stealthy. They prefer swift, extremely violent assaults, and show no mercy. Which sounds more similar to another legion known for having pale skin and black eyes. In fact I'd say the similarities are quite terrifying.

They actually are pretty stealthy, and then they get straight to the thick of it. Also it's all but confirmed based on all the 30k lore for Raven Guard. Hell, for one of the sections, you can see Tyberos' helmet I'm pretty sure!

Roberts84 wrote:


Actually, killing Nids is all the sharks do, pretty much. The Badab war is the exception not the rule, and they really only got into conflict with the Night Lords because both factions were after the same thing.

We don't really know if they are RG. They probably are, but it's as yet unconfirmed. It's just as likely they are Chimeric.

The first confirmed contact with the Tyranids was in M41. Now they could have fought a fleet before that in theory but even with that it would most likely be a few hundred years in advance. Also it would make them incredibly dumb if they were encountering hive fleets and passing on zero warning to anyone exile or not. Even with that though, they’d have 9000 years of fighting other foes. Plus they’re listed as fighting in the war of the false primarch to help put down 11 other chapters and they fought a massive series of traitor uprisings. I feel like it’s a bit odd to make the focus on an enemy that only just appeared. Plus why would anyone want to play Tyranids against a base army that already has better rules plus good rules against Tyranids

They should get reroll 1s to Hit and Wound Ghaz, cos only the Super Duper Carcharadons can save us from his OPness.

White Scars successors with Tactical Withdrawal and Hungry for Battle seems super fluffy to me. No Primaris, mostly Scouts to fill out Troops, Scout Bikes for taking objectives and a Chaplain on Bike to lead the ground and a Captain in Terminator armour to lead the DS assault. Terminators, possibly Cataphractii and some Drop Pods with Veterans and a Librarian or Assault Squads and you've got a fluffy list.

No need for special chapter relics, if anything they should be scavenged things or heresy era tech upgrades. They've got at least 50% of their conflicts against heretics, making them an anti-Tyranid chapter is weird when that's Ultrarmines' thing. You can already use Special Issue Wargear to represent the best looted gear or whatever artefacts the chapter has, Master-crafted lightning claws for your Captain and Artificer Armour for your Chaplain.

Harlokin keep other threads out of this one if they're not relevant.

 vict0988 wrote:
White Scars successors with Tactical Withdrawal and Hungry for Battle seems super fluffy to me. No Primaris, mostly Scouts to fill out Troops, Scout Bikes for taking objectives and a Chaplain on Bike to lead the ground and a Captain in Terminator armour to lead the DS assault. Terminators, possibly Cataphractii and some Drop Pods with Veterans and a Librarian or Assault Squads and you've got a fluffy list.

No need for special chapter relics, if anything they should be scavenged things or heresy era tech upgrades. They've got at least 50% of their conflicts against heretics, making them an anti-Tyranid chapter is weird when that's Ultrarmines' thing. You can already use Special Issue Wargear to represent the best looted gear or whatever artefacts the chapter has, Master-crafted lightning claws for your Captain and Artificer Armour for your Chaplain.

Harlokin keep other threads out of this one if they're not relevant.

A model for Te Kahurangi would be good, as well as some special rules. Ditto Bail Sharr. Both characters feature much more heavily in both Carcharodons models than Tyberus.

Roberts84 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
White Scars successors with Tactical Withdrawal and Hungry for Battle seems super fluffy to me. No Primaris, mostly Scouts to fill out Troops, Scout Bikes for taking objectives and a Chaplain on Bike to lead the ground and a Captain in Terminator armour to lead the DS assault. Terminators, possibly Cataphractii and some Drop Pods with Veterans and a Librarian or Assault Squads and you've got a fluffy list.

No need for special chapter relics, if anything they should be scavenged things or heresy era tech upgrades. They've got at least 50% of their conflicts against heretics, making them an anti-Tyranid chapter is weird when that's Ultrarmines' thing. You can already use Special Issue Wargear to represent the best looted gear or whatever artefacts the chapter has, Master-crafted lightning claws for your Captain and Artificer Armour for your Chaplain.

Harlokin keep other threads out of this one if they're not relevant.

A model for Te Kahurangi would be good, as well as some special rules. Ditto Bail Sharr. Both characters feature much more heavily in both Carcharodons models than Tyberus.

What rules do you want for those characters?

 vict0988 wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
White Scars successors with Tactical Withdrawal and Hungry for Battle seems super fluffy to me. No Primaris, mostly Scouts to fill out Troops, Scout Bikes for taking objectives and a Chaplain on Bike to lead the ground and a Captain in Terminator armour to lead the DS assault. Terminators, possibly Cataphractii and some Drop Pods with Veterans and a Librarian or Assault Squads and you've got a fluffy list.

No need for special chapter relics, if anything they should be scavenged things or heresy era tech upgrades. They've got at least 50% of their conflicts against heretics, making them an anti-Tyranid chapter is weird when that's Ultrarmines' thing. You can already use Special Issue Wargear to represent the best looted gear or whatever artefacts the chapter has, Master-crafted lightning claws for your Captain and Artificer Armour for your Chaplain.

Harlokin keep other threads out of this one if they're not relevant.

A model for Te Kahurangi would be good, as well as some special rules. Ditto Bail Sharr. Both characters feature much more heavily in both Carcharodons models than Tyberus.

What rules do you want for those characters?

Not sure, but Te Kahurangi is a beast. An immensely powerful psyker. Sharr is just a straight melee monster.

 vict0988 wrote:
White Scars successors with Tactical Withdrawal and Hungry for Battle seems super fluffy to me. No Primaris, mostly Scouts to fill out Troops, Scout Bikes for taking objectives and a Chaplain on Bike to lead the ground and a Captain in Terminator armour to lead the DS assault. Terminators, possibly Cataphractii and some Drop Pods with Veterans and a Librarian or Assault Squads and you've got a fluffy list.

Carcharodons do have access to Primaris but not from the Indominus Crusade founding. They received the upgrade option through the Grey Tithe with the Mechanicus rather than as reinforcements from Guilliman. Any Carcharodon Primaris would come from within the chapter though.

As said above, Carcharadons don't need a unique Chapter Tactic - they're too similar to other Marines to need it. Similarly, I don't think they're *that* specialised against Nids to the same degree GK are to Daemons. If there any non-DW Chapter that tailors to Tyranids, it's the Scythes of the Emperor, not the Carcharadons.

But, with the power of Successor traits, you could still pick from a nice set of abilities.
I'd say they're a Raven Guard successor (WS at a push), and you could give them:
Preferred Enemy (Tyranids) - I don't think they're that tailored for it, but hey, if that's your thing
Fearsome Aspect - Definitely appropriate
Hungry for Battle - Not a bad fit, certainly appropriate
Whirlwind of Rage - Also suitable

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well, we know they're Raven Guard successors. The best way to represent their Chapter Tactics is Stealthy + Hungry For Battle. For Strats and Relics though that's a different story.

That's never been confirmed. And they aren't stealthy. They prefer swift, extremely violent assaults, and show no mercy. Which sounds more similar to another legion known for having pale skin and black eyes. In fact I'd say the similarities are quite terrifying.

They actually are pretty stealthy, and then they get straight to the thick of it. Also it's all but confirmed based on all the 30k lore for Raven Guard. Hell, for one of the sections, you can see Tyberos' helmet I'm pretty sure!

I think you're getting them confused with the Ashen Claws if you're talking about the chapter exiled by Corax. There are just as many hints in the books that they are Night Lords successors as Raven Guard, or possibly a chimeric mix of the two.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well, we know they're Raven Guard successors. The best way to represent their Chapter Tactics is Stealthy + Hungry For Battle. For Strats and Relics though that's a different story.

That's never been confirmed. And they aren't stealthy. They prefer swift, extremely violent assaults, and show no mercy. Which sounds more similar to another legion known for having pale skin and black eyes. In fact I'd say the similarities are quite terrifying.

They actually are pretty stealthy, and then they get straight to the thick of it. Also it's all but confirmed based on all the 30k lore for Raven Guard. Hell, for one of the sections, you can see Tyberos' helmet I'm pretty sure!

I think you're getting them confused with the Ashen Claws if you're talking about the chapter exiled by Corax. There are just as many hints in the books that they are Night Lords successors as Raven Guard, or possibly a chimeric mix of the two.

Characadons do use lots of Scouts to prepare for invasion.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well, we know they're Raven Guard successors. The best way to represent their Chapter Tactics is Stealthy + Hungry For Battle. For Strats and Relics though that's a different story.

That's never been confirmed. And they aren't stealthy. They prefer swift, extremely violent assaults, and show no mercy. Which sounds more similar to another legion known for having pale skin and black eyes. In fact I'd say the similarities are quite terrifying.

They actually are pretty stealthy, and then they get straight to the thick of it. Also it's all but confirmed based on all the 30k lore for Raven Guard. Hell, for one of the sections, you can see Tyberos' helmet I'm pretty sure!

I think you're getting them confused with the Ashen Claws if you're talking about the chapter exiled by Corax. There are just as many hints in the books that they are Night Lords successors as Raven Guard, or possibly a chimeric mix of the two.

Pale Nomads I think the name was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well, we know they're Raven Guard successors. The best way to represent their Chapter Tactics is Stealthy + Hungry For Battle. For Strats and Relics though that's a different story.

That's never been confirmed. And they aren't stealthy. They prefer swift, extremely violent assaults, and show no mercy. Which sounds more similar to another legion known for having pale skin and black eyes. In fact I'd say the similarities are quite terrifying.

They actually are pretty stealthy, and then they get straight to the thick of it. Also it's all but confirmed based on all the 30k lore for Raven Guard. Hell, for one of the sections, you can see Tyberos' helmet I'm pretty sure!

I think you're getting them confused with the Ashen Claws if you're talking about the chapter exiled by Corax. There are just as many hints in the books that they are Night Lords successors as Raven Guard, or possibly a chimeric mix of the two.

Characadons do use lots of Scouts to prepare for invasion.

Exactly. They're stealthy on approach and then they go Chainsword happy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well, we know they're Raven Guard successors. The best way to represent their Chapter Tactics is Stealthy + Hungry For Battle. For Strats and Relics though that's a different story.

That's never been confirmed. And they aren't stealthy. They prefer swift, extremely violent assaults, and show no mercy. Which sounds more similar to another legion known for having pale skin and black eyes. In fact I'd say the similarities are quite terrifying.

They actually are pretty stealthy, and then they get straight to the thick of it. Also it's all but confirmed based on all the 30k lore for Raven Guard. Hell, for one of the sections, you can see Tyberos' helmet I'm pretty sure!

I think you're getting them confused with the Ashen Claws if you're talking about the chapter exiled by Corax. There are just as many hints in the books that they are Night Lords successors as Raven Guard, or possibly a chimeric mix of the two.

Pale Nomads I think the name was.

That was the name the Raven Guard was known as before being reunited with Corax. The backstory of the Carcharadon's founding legion is kept ambiguous in order to add to the mystery, it could be Raven Guard, Night Lords, or a combination of them or others (World Eaters have been mentioned as a possibility as they use Ursas Claws for boarding actions similar to them). Personally I prefer this, as it feels more like the kind of lore we used to have, before the current wave of lore which seems to be more influenced by things like super hero movies and Saturday morning cartoons. I'd ignore whoever their proginators were and give them traits that represented their current methods.

There was that sect that was banished though and had a bunch of the same exact traits, down to the polynesian themes (which shows up on their special Contemptor!)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There was that sect that was banished though and had a bunch of the same exact traits, down to the polynesian themes (which shows up on their special Contemptor!)

That's the Ashen Claws. Who still exist as renegades and actually trade with the Carcharadons in the novels. They also refer to the Carcharadons as "traitor born scum".

There's multiple novels now? I only knew of one.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There's multiple novels now? I only knew of one.

Two: Red Tithe, where they fight the Night Lords and the Night Lords remark how similar their combat methods are to theirs and a daemon they summon refers to the Carcharadons as their "lost brothers ", not "cousins " but "brothers " which implies the same gene stock (of course it's a Tzeentchian daemon, so maybe not a good source of information), and Outer Dark where the interactions with the Ashen Claws take place. The Night Lords hh novella The Long Night also drops hints that Sevatar could be the Forgotten One who founded the Carcharadons.

When he dreams now it is not of the dead, but of the endless night between worlds. The deepest void, where a thousand threats drift, away from the light of loyal suns. The domains of aliens and monsters forced into exile by the Great Crusade, still crying out to be extinguished once and for all. The true threats to mankind.

Sound like a hint? Also this:

His voice filters into something savage and predatory, as hungry as the eyeless white sharks of Nostromo's blackest depths.

Sounds like foreshadowing to me.