Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Could be a case of one of the chapters going full-on traitor while the other remains loyal, or simply a successor chapter becoming a sort of "black sheep" when it comes to philosophy of war, tactics, etc.

Definitely. IIRC the Ultramarines get a Successor (the Mortifactors) to help them against the Tyranids and freak out at weird skulls everywhere and one of them leaps to wanting to censure them. I think.

pm713 wrote:
Definitely. IIRC the Ultramarines get a Successor (the Mortifactors) to help them against the Tyranids and freak out at weird skulls everywhere and one of them leaps to wanting to censure them. I think.

I recall that particular story being from warriors of Ultramar. It was many years ago since i read it, alot might have added to their relationship since. It was certainly cold at the time though.

Didn't the fleash eaters have a pretty bad relationship with the blood angels? I might remember it wrong.

Plenty of them.
The Crimson Sabres before they fell to Chaos were disowned by their progenitor.
The Angels Vermillion and Angels Penitent are both on terrible terms with the Blood Angels.
The Sons of Medusa still hold plenty of bad blood among the Iron Hands.
The Dark Hunters, while not openly hated by White Scars and their successors, are definitely viewed as oddballs and the least respected among the chapters of the Khan.

 Nerak wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Definitely. IIRC the Ultramarines get a Successor (the Mortifactors) to help them against the Tyranids and freak out at weird skulls everywhere and one of them leaps to wanting to censure them. I think.

I recall that particular story being from warriors of Ultramar. It was many years ago since i read it, alot might have added to their relationship since. It was certainly cold at the time though.

Didn't the fleash eaters have a pretty bad relationship with the blood angels? I might remember it wrong.

I'm pretty sure they do basically because the flesh boys have run down equipment but BA get loads of artsy fancy stuff because they happen to be the 1st Founding lot even though they all come from Sangy,

Yes, in the Ultramarine Omnibus, the Ultramarines were very upset about the Mortifactors turning into worshippers of the dead. Basically saving skulls/bones and venerating them just a little TOO much.

But the Ultramarines need their help, so swallow their pride and even drink from some hallucinogenic blood as part of a ritual.

So across the galaxy, this would probably be more common than successors being BFFs. Thousands of years being separated and fighting in completely different warzones would change Chapters, and the Imperium in general does not like change.

*proceeds to read about Angels Vermillion*

Man what the feth?

The Emperor's spears are an Ultramarines sucessor but don't have very good relations with the Ultramarines.

No one even wants to consider the idea of kinship with the Minotaurs.

The ultimate jerks of th setting.

The Soul Drinkers have a not so good relationship with the Imperial Fists...

of course, it turns out that the Imperial Fists aren't really their daddies and their true Parent Chapter is unknown....

but even more bizarrely it turns out that the Soul Drinkers are (one of) the Imperial Fists daddies instead, as the Soul Drinkers were part of the Last Wall protocol to rebuild the Imperial Fists after the War of the Beast.

pm713 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they do basically because the flesh boys have run down equipment but BA get loads of artsy fancy stuff because they happen to be the 1st Founding lot even though they all come from Sangy,

The flesh tearers have a tendency of murdering both friend and foe, which has put them in a bad standing with the BA and the rest of the successor chapters.

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they do basically because the flesh boys have run down equipment but BA get loads of artsy fancy stuff because they happen to be the 1st Founding lot even though they all come from Sangy,

The flesh tearers have a tendency of murdering both friend and foe, which has put them in a bad standing with the BA and the rest of the successor chapters.

Then Destruction of Baal has a successor chapter that the Flesh Tearers don't like, compounded by the fact that the successor chapter don't even particularly like themselves!

Others to consider.

The sons of medusa founding was particularly unique. The were formed from the Moiran schism, and this affected the iron hands and all their successors. Basically, rather than risk internecine war, the 'believers' were allowed to leave/exile together as a new group. However, I can imagine that feelings between the sons of medusa and other successors of the iron hands would still be... less than pleasant.

Another one, and this goes back a while. Corvus corax, prior to the heresy, basically didn't trust the Terrans in the raven guard. He had them exiled as nomad predation fleets. One of whom became the ashen claws. They're rebels and still active. Another is suggested to be the carcharadons. Assuming chapters like these are still around, I can't imagine them being particularly enamoured of a parent chapter that cast them out.

Not sure who they are successors of, but the Marines Malevolent are basically hated by anyone who meets them (and for good reason). If their name was picked by whatever chapter they descend from, that shows how much respect they had for them...

Deadnight wrote:
No one even wants to consider the idea of kinship with the Minotaurs.

The ultimate jerks of th setting.

Minotaurs get gak done, and they can be jerks all they want for that.

The Fire Hawks claimed Ultramarine descent but it was never acknowledged by the Ultramarines. The Fire Hawks didn't get on with many - presumably including them - due to their being somewhat blase with regards to the Codex Astartes whilst being staunch adherents of the Imperial Cult.

alphaecho wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they do basically because the flesh boys have run down equipment but BA get loads of artsy fancy stuff because they happen to be the 1st Founding lot even though they all come from Sangy,

The flesh tearers have a tendency of murdering both friend and foe, which has put them in a bad standing with the BA and the rest of the successor chapters.

Then Destruction of Baal has a successor chapter that the Flesh Tearers don't like, compounded by the fact that the successor chapter don't even particularly like themselves!

Dante is pretty irrational when it comes to the Knights of Blood as well, specifically refusing to invite them to the defense of Baal. There's no explanation for it in the book, and they're completely wiped out, so... Whatever. It's pretty bad writing overall, as they're built up as an issue, never explained, then 'rocks fall, everyone dies' offscreen.

On the whole though, the Flesh Tearer relationship with the BA seems far more healthy over the course of DoB, though their chapter master is the sole holdout on not liking primaris at the end.

Voss wrote:

alphaecho wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they do basically because the flesh boys have run down equipment but BA get loads of artsy fancy stuff because they happen to be the 1st Founding lot even though they all come from Sangy,

The flesh tearers have a tendency of murdering both friend and foe, which has put them in a bad standing with the BA and the rest of the successor chapters.

Then Destruction of Baal has a successor chapter that the Flesh Tearers don't like, compounded by the fact that the successor chapter don't even particularly like themselves!

Dante is pretty irrational when it comes to the Knights of Blood as well, specifically refusing to invite them to the defense of Baal. There's no explanation for it in the book, and they're completely wiped out, so... Whatever. It's pretty bad writing overall, as they're built up as an issue, never explained, then 'rocks fall, everyone dies' offscreen.

On the whole though, the Flesh Tearer relationship with the BA seems far more healthy over the course of DoB, though their chapter master is the sole holdout on not liking primaris at the end.

The Knights of Blood were declared excommunicate Traitoris. To even associate with them would be grounds for Inquisitorial investigation. As far as the greater Imperium is concerned, that stamp applies equally to Black Legion, Red Corsairs, Flame Falcons, Ashen Claws, and Knights of Blood. That's why Dante wasn't going to call on them.

Unless you meant the Angels Vermillion, in which case they weren't called on because Dante learned about their horrific ritual, known as The Sorrowing. The discovery of this secret was in "Eminence Sanguis" the short story attached to the limited edition of Devastation of Baal.

jareddm wrote:

Voss wrote:

alphaecho wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they do basically because the flesh boys have run down equipment but BA get loads of artsy fancy stuff because they happen to be the 1st Founding lot even though they all come from Sangy,

The flesh tearers have a tendency of murdering both friend and foe, which has put them in a bad standing with the BA and the rest of the successor chapters.

Then Destruction of Baal has a successor chapter that the Flesh Tearers don't like, compounded by the fact that the successor chapter don't even particularly like themselves!

Dante is pretty irrational when it comes to the Knights of Blood as well, specifically refusing to invite them to the defense of Baal. There's no explanation for it in the book, and they're completely wiped out, so... Whatever. It's pretty bad writing overall, as they're built up as an issue, never explained, then 'rocks fall, everyone dies' offscreen.

On the whole though, the Flesh Tearer relationship with the BA seems far more healthy over the course of DoB, though their chapter master is the sole holdout on not liking primaris at the end.

The Knights of Blood were declared excommunicate Traitoris. To even associate with them would be grounds for Inquisitorial investigation. As far as the greater Imperium is concerned, that stamp applies equally to Black Legion, Red Corsairs, Flame Falcons, Ashen Claws, and Knights of Blood. That's why Dante wasn't going to call on them.

Unless you meant the Angels Vermillion, in which case they weren't called on because Dante learned about their horrific ritual, known as The Sorrowing. The discovery of this secret was in "Eminence Sanguis" the short story attached to the limited edition of Devastation of Baal.

Considering what was at stake Dante comes off as really dumb....

pm713 wrote:
Considering what was at stake Dante comes off as really dumb....

I'm sure if you asked a random sample of astartes chapter masters if they would choose death of their chapter over associating with traitors and heretics, the vast majority would choose death.

jareddm wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Considering what was at stake Dante comes off as really dumb....

I'm sure if you asked a random sample of astartes chapter masters if they would choose death of their chapter over associating with traitors and heretics, the vast majority would choose death.

That's cool. How many would choose rejecting getting help from renegades and destroying one of the most sacred things in the entire Imperium instead? Considering some Chapters don't even acknowledge renegades as being outcast unless the outcasts themselves admit it and the loss of Baal meant that at best Sanguinius's body would be completely destroyed then I'd say a lot of them would choose associating with renegades.

pm713 wrote:

jareddm wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Considering what was at stake Dante comes off as really dumb....

I'm sure if you asked a random sample of astartes chapter masters if they would choose death of their chapter over associating with traitors and heretics, the vast majority would choose death.

Considering some Chapters don't even acknowledge renegades as being outcast unless the outcasts themselves admit it

Book shows Dante's not one of them. And would likely consider those who do as just as untrustworthy as those they associate with.

and the loss of Baal meant that at best Sanguinius's body would be completely destroyed then I'd say a lot of them would choose associating with renegades.

Dante was already evacuating relics, like those he gave to Seth. Doubt the body of Sanguinius wasn't among them.

jareddm wrote:

pm713 wrote:

jareddm wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Considering what was at stake Dante comes off as really dumb....

I'm sure if you asked a random sample of astartes chapter masters if they would choose death of their chapter over associating with traitors and heretics, the vast majority would choose death.

Considering some Chapters don't even acknowledge renegades as being outcast unless the outcasts themselves admit it

Book shows Dante's not one of them. And would likely consider those who do as just as untrustworthy as those they associate with.

and the loss of Baal meant that at best Sanguinius's body would be completely destroyed then I'd say a lot of them would choose associating with renegades.

Dante was already evacuating relics, like those he gave to Seth. Doubt the body of Sanguinius wasn't among them.

Then I return to Dante coming off as not that smart.

How exactly? If Tyranids are eating your planet you've already lost the space war so they can't exactly fly out the body.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
*proceeds to read about Angels Vermillion*

Man what the feth?

*intrigued by your reaction, also proceeds to read about the Angels Vermillion*

Wow, that is grim dark. If I ever start a Blood Angels army, it will be the Angels Vermillion now!

jareddm wrote:

Voss wrote:

alphaecho wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they do basically because the flesh boys have run down equipment but BA get loads of artsy fancy stuff because they happen to be the 1st Founding lot even though they all come from Sangy,

The flesh tearers have a tendency of murdering both friend and foe, which has put them in a bad standing with the BA and the rest of the successor chapters.

Then Destruction of Baal has a successor chapter that the Flesh Tearers don't like, compounded by the fact that the successor chapter don't even particularly like themselves!

Dante is pretty irrational when it comes to the Knights of Blood as well, specifically refusing to invite them to the defense of Baal. There's no explanation for it in the book, and they're completely wiped out, so... Whatever. It's pretty bad writing overall, as they're built up as an issue, never explained, then 'rocks fall, everyone dies' offscreen.

On the whole though, the Flesh Tearer relationship with the BA seems far more healthy over the course of DoB, though their chapter master is the sole holdout on not liking primaris at the end.

The Knights of Blood were declared excommunicate Traitoris. To even associate with them would be grounds for Inquisitorial investigation. As far as the greater Imperium is concerned, that stamp applies equally to Black Legion, Red Corsairs, Flame Falcons, Ashen Claws, and Knights of Blood. That's why Dante wasn't going to call on them..

Then Guy Haley should have taken two lines to explain that. As is, they're treated as 'bad,' show up anyway, have a brief interaction on the bridge of their ship were they seem callous but otherwise loyal space marines and are never seen again, just summed up as wiped out post climatic battle (which is also not shown, because Haley ran out of pages, waxing lyrical about the perfection of tyranid organisms and other pointless asides).

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they do basically because the flesh boys have run down equipment but BA get loads of artsy fancy stuff because they happen to be the 1st Founding lot even though they all come from Sangy,

The flesh tearers have a tendency of murdering both friend and foe, which has put them in a bad standing with the BA and the rest of the successor chapters.

Why do Flesh Tearers kill friendlies as well? Careless trigger discipline leading to a lot of allies getting accidentally killed as well?

Berserk rage in the fluff is very nasty, with lots of collateral damage.

Berserk rage in the rules is a laser-like scalpel of pure benefits.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I'm pretty sure they do basically because the flesh boys have run down equipment but BA get loads of artsy fancy stuff because they happen to be the 1st Founding lot even though they all come from Sangy,

The flesh tearers have a tendency of murdering both friend and foe, which has put them in a bad standing with the BA and the rest of the successor chapters.

Why do Flesh Tearers kill friendlies as well? Careless trigger discipline leading to a lot of allies getting accidentally killed as well?

They lose control and rip the heads off the nearest thing which is likely to be a guardsmen. Several guardsmen.

no-one mentioning the Blood Ravens?

craggy wrote:
no-one mentioning the Blood Ravens?

blood ravens don't know who their parent chapter IS