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I've heard rumors that the blood raves may be based on thousand sons geneseed that was stored a very long time ago.

And I thought maybe it made sense as the geneseed stored during and after the HH would basically still be pretty fresh and mutation free, unlike geneseed in use for 10,000 years that's had time to get mutated and corrupted. It seems geneseed corruption after so long has become an issue in the imperial space marines.

Plus it's known that large numbers of each traitor legion in fact remained loyal and fought on the imperium's side in the heresy. Like that company of IW that delayed the IW advance on terra for a year and a day, while doing a lot of harm to the chaos IW forces,

So if mutating geneseed was getting to be a problem for the imperium could they have decided to try some of the geneseed from members of traitor legions that remained loyal? Freshen up the old genepool?

It's just something I wondered about as I may do a BR force someday.

Officially, the Imperium would never use geneseed from traitor legions. But unofficially, there must be some chapters that were founded by traitors who didn't turn along with their legions and survived the heresy. Any potential successors from these would be technically descendant of traitor legions.

And if there was a serious need for marines but not enough loyalist genseed at some point, it's reasonable that some traitor geneseed would be used. I think the Imperium would never admit it though, so the records would be falsified to hide those marines' true origin.

As Tiennos said, this is on a long list of things the Imperium would never do. Such questions smack of Hersey

 Tiennos wrote:
Officially, the Imperium would never use geneseed from traitor legions. But unofficially, there must be some chapters that were founded by traitors who didn't turn along with their legions

Well... 'must' is a pretty strong word, particularly since the legions weren't the ones deciding on chapter foundings, let alone small groups of surviving non-traitors (or double traitors, depending on how you think about it). Second founding was decided by the remaining primarchs, subsequent foundings largely seem to be decided by the Administratum, High Lords, or in some cases the Inquisition, with the ministorum providing the geneseed from stockpiles.

In theory, there could be some, but given the number of lost companies or chapters that have fallen to chaos in 10,000 years, I'm not sure that it matters in any meaningful way.
I do think its one of those mysteries that's best left unanswered, if the Blood Ravens, Grey Knights or whoever are descended from traitor chapters, it doesn't need a definitive answer. Enjoy the mystery and lost knowledge.

And if there was a serious need for marines but not enough loyalist geneseed at some point, it's reasonable that some traitor geneseed would be used.

The problem with this is there is always a serious need for marines. The galaxy is too big and the number of marines too small.
Especially now that the galaxy is cracked in half. Though, of course, primaris happened with even older stockpiles of geneseed set aside for experimentation back in the way back day. And we know there are traitor geneseed stocks, even if their use has been forbidden by Rob.

I'm still waiting for them to actually do something with all the plot seeds they've set up with the 8th edition time skip. Loyalist traitor primaris seem a good possibility for an internal Imperial division as Cawl gets restless under his restrictions and another primarch pops up and isn't happy with Rob's response. But so far all the new stuff has turned into low-scale same old conflicts over uninteresting planets.

The silver skulls could be iron warriors descendants. War smith Dantioch’s great company through in with the Ultra Marines and we never learn their fate. The Silver Skull’s insignia resembles the pre-heresy Iron Warriors iconography and claim the ultra marines as their first founding chapter.

I think parts of the13th founding used the traitor geneseed or tried to modify it. There are no records for any 13th founding chapters save for three (Excorcists, Death Specters, and Crimson Sabers). In all likelihood the geneseed sources were deliberately covered up because they used traitor geneseed for the source.

The 21st founding, also referred to as the cursed founding, included heavy modification attempts to various gene-seed and space marines in general. Given the large number of chapters that went traitor from it, it’s hard not to argue that traitor stock was used for some attempts.

Its not unheard of. Blood Ravens likely come from Magus geneseed, However the geneseed of the traitors now is corrupted beyond salvation. So you would need to have the original geneseed.

Something I rather get irritated by is the idea that every loyalist traitor geneseed faction is literally just a carbon copy of their ancestor.

So, the idea that a Night Lords successor would be fear based, love chainglaives, or that World Eaters would be raging berzerker melee monsters, or that Iron Warriors successors are obsessed with siegecraft, etc. It just feels a bit lazy - after all, not every Imperial Fist successor is obsessed with siegecraft, not all Ultramarine successors are Codex adherent, and so on.

So, I think I'd quite like for any suspected traitor batches to not be as transparent as they are often shown.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Something I rather get irritated by is the idea that every loyalist traitor geneseed faction is literally just a carbon copy of their ancestor.

So, the idea that a Night Lords successor would be fear based, love chainglaives, or that World Eaters would be raging berzerker melee monsters, or that Iron Warriors successors are obsessed with siegecraft, etc. It just feels a bit lazy - after all, not every Imperial Fist successor is obsessed with siegecraft, not all Ultramarine successors are Codex adherent, and so on.

So, I think I'd quite like for any suspected traitor batches to not be as transparent as they are often shown.

I agree that making traitor derived chapters behave just like their parent legions would be boring, but what are the examples you're talking about? What chapter acts like Night Lords? And even modern Night Lords don't use chainglaives, though I wish they did.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Something I rather get irritated by is the idea that every loyalist traitor geneseed faction is literally just a carbon copy of their ancestor.

So, the idea that a Night Lords successor would be fear based, love chainglaives, or that World Eaters would be raging berzerker melee monsters, or that Iron Warriors successors are obsessed with siegecraft, etc. It just feels a bit lazy - after all, not every Imperial Fist successor is obsessed with siegecraft, not all Ultramarine successors are Codex adherent, and so on.

So, I think I'd quite like for any suspected traitor batches to not be as transparent as they are often shown.

I agree that making traitor derived chapters behave just like their parent legions would be boring, but what are the examples you're talking about? What chapter acts like Night Lords? And even modern Night Lords don't use chainglaives, though I wish they did.

Generally the ones that everyone mentions (which I am NOT saying are traitor geneseed are as follows)

Blood Ravens - Thousand Sons (Laurie Goulding repeatedly spoke that they have no direct connection to HH-era Thousand Sons. Does not rule out post-Heresy use of geneseed)
Sons of Antaeus - Death Guard
Red Scorpions - Emperor's Children
Death Eagles - Emperor's Children (not 100% confirmed but more likely than Red Scorpions)
1st Minotaurs - World Eaters (theorized)
2nd Minotaurs - Iron Warriors (confirmed by word of god, but still argued about)
Carcharodons - Night Lords (Definitely didn't start off this way. Might've taken to using stolen gene-seed during banishment. Might've not.)
Sons of the Pheonix - Emperor's Children (The one that genuinely makes me angry. It's just too blatant and I hope it's eventually shown to be a massive red herring out of spite)

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Something I rather get irritated by is the idea that every loyalist traitor geneseed faction is literally just a carbon copy of their ancestor.

So, the idea that a Night Lords successor would be fear based, love chainglaives, or that World Eaters would be raging berzerker melee monsters, or that Iron Warriors successors are obsessed with siegecraft, etc. It just feels a bit lazy - after all, not every Imperial Fist successor is obsessed with siegecraft, not all Ultramarine successors are Codex adherent, and so on.

So, I think I'd quite like for any suspected traitor batches to not be as transparent as they are often shown.

I agree that making traitor derived chapters behave just like their parent legions would be boring, but what are the examples you're talking about? What chapter acts like Night Lords? And even modern Night Lords don't use chainglaives, though I wish they did.

As jareddm says:

The Carcharadons are widely suspected as Night Lords, purely because they use terror warfare and have pale skin/black eyes (with many people ignoring that Raven Guard Predation Fleets also used terror/brutal tactics and had similar physiology)

Sons of Anteus, purely because they're durable like Death Guard

Blood Ravens as Thousand Sons, because they have a lot of psykers and red armour (even though a few sources have said that they aren't directly linked, and the character who had one of the strongest links, Revuel Arvida, turned out to actually be a Grey Knight later on)

Minotaurs have both been said to be World Eaters and Iron Warriors, for brutality/bloodshed and their obsession with siegecraft (of which the latter is confirmed to be their true ancestry, which I think is a little dumb - just because they're descended from IW doesn't mean they need to love sieges and that kind of stuff)

Red Scorpions, just because they're obsessive and based on purity at all costs, like the Emperor's Children

Sons of the Phoenix, who are incredibly blatantly inspired by the Emperor's Children, and as a result, I think it's a total misdirection/jab at the above Chapters.

Yes, I could've swore I put something in my post about Carcharadons being similar to Night Lords but not the same. Thanks for the other examples.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The Carcharadons are widely suspected as Night Lords, purely because they use terror warfare and have pale skin/black eyes (with many people ignoring that Raven Guard Predation Fleets also used terror/brutal tactics and had similar physiology)

While that's true, there is a cool hint in a short story (The Long Night?) where Sevatar talks about the "the eyeless sharks of Nostramo", and wanting to venture to the far edges of galaxy to hunt humanity's enemies.

 harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The Carcharadons are widely suspected as Night Lords, purely because they use terror warfare and have pale skin/black eyes (with many people ignoring that Raven Guard Predation Fleets also used terror/brutal tactics and had similar physiology)

While that's true, there is a cool hint in a short story (The Long Night?) where Sevatar talks about the "the eyeless sharks of Nostramo", and wanting to venture to the far edges of galaxy to hunt humanity's enemies.

Not to mention the hints in the Carcharadons novels, including the Night Lords commenting on how the Carcharadons fight like them, and the Ashen Claws (the now renegade members of those Raven Guard predation fleets) referring to the Carcharadons as "traitor born dogs".

I think the lore was extremely subtle about in in the past. The Blood Ravens had hints of being descendants of Loyalist Thousand Sons (and some BL stuff hinted at possibilities). It was good fun.

Now it feels like GW all but admits it. The Sons of the Phoenix as practically wearing a sign on their backs that says "Not-Emperor's Children".

While it's understandable why the Imperium would not want to advertise any use of traitor geneseed, I would argue that a good portion of the original legions that went traitor were actually relatively stable in genetics and would make for good stock. Their downfall was largely due to recruitment (psychopaths and killers being put into the World Eaters and Night Lords), the lives of the primarchs (Angron's mutilation and bitterness against the Emperor, Kurze's life in a lawless hellhole, Mortarion's rearing in a toxic wasteland and his own bitterness against the Emperor), the Emperor's own neglect and mistreatment of the later-traitor primarchs, the malign and/or misguided dealings of guys like Ahriman, Horus, Erebus, and Typhus, and ultimately, Chaos corruption. But with the exception of the Thousand Sons' flesh change, few of the later-Chaos legions had anything equivalent to the Wulfen or the Blood Angel's double curse. Using the stable geneseed of guys like the World Eaters is forbidden, but I would argue that creating a chapter of WE successors would make more sense than churning out another chapter like Flesh Eaters or Blood Drinkers, chapters who are one bad day away from becoming Strain-esque strigoi.