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Vaktathi wrote:I'll toss my worthless $0.02 on this. My issue is that they're ostensibly a codex adherent chapter, always were, and originally largely were simply differentiated by how they deployed their Bike and Terminator en-masse routinely (as opposed to only rarely doing so with other Chapters) with a slight preference for plasma weaponry, instead of actually being anything particularly unique, and over time that's somehow became defined by superbiker plasma-fetishists with Knighty-Big-Terminators to justify their existence as a separate faction.

Absolutely. The unique aspects of the DA that would make any different on tabletop are two companies, nothing more.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:By playing Dark Angels I gain access to unique units but lose access to others (Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, Vanguard Vets etc). I get something but I lose something. The game gains some diversity with an additional faction but with low opportunity cost.

But why don't the DA have those units? If I made my own custom Chapter that simply couldn't take Scouts, but then added something like a melee Primaris unit, by your logic, that's enough for a while new Codex?

There is no lore reason the DA can't have all those units beyond arbitrary limitations.

The Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves have a long history in the game of having their own books. Others have come and gone.

So why should the DA/BA/SW remain independent? You can't just appeal to the status quo - there must be a solid reason why they should stay as they are.

We do not have a unit called biker veterans. We do have Ravenwing Black Knights which are one of our distinctive units.

Which are basically just Veteran bikers. If I added a unit to the Raven Guard called "Raven's Talons" and were literally just Vanguard Veterans with lightning claws, would you say that the RG should have their own unique Codex? No, they're just a generic unit with a fancy new name!

We have Ravenwing Bike Squads who get Jink and access to some Stratagems.

All stuff that could be added in via Chapter Tactics and supplements. White Scars bikers all get the ability to advance without penalty - should they get their own unique datasheets?

The Ravenwing are kind of a big part of the Dark Angels thing and have been so since the game took shape.

They're one Company. Not even the majority of the Chapter.

I don't see a problem with this: the Ravenwing are well established lore. The White Scars do bikes well, and anybody can take bikes.

Ravenwing are established lore, yes. But giving them generic units wouldn't change that lore.

If I were to take a Dark Angels bike, and simply change the unit name to "Bike Squad", that wouldn't change the fact they're Ravenwing. It's like if I had a custom Chapter who call their Tactical Squads "Impulsor Squads". I don't need a unique datasheet for them, I just call them "Impulsors" in my backstory and stuff. It's like the Emperor's Spears, who call their Veterans "Paragons". They don't need a "Paragons" datasheet, because as players, we're smart enough to know that, despite their fancy name, they're just Veterans.

My whole point is that its good to have to make meaningful choices. You want Ravenwing Black Knights? Great! You don't get Thunderfire Cannons. Its a choice, leading to greater diversity on the tabletop based on something other than points.

But WHY don't they have Thunderfire Cannons? It's not like not having Thunderfire Cannons is a big part of the DA lore? It's not like Guardsmen, who play drastically differently depending on if they're run as Scions or not.

WhiteDog wrote:The argument that the DA are an "ostensibly codex adherent chapter" is so stupid : it's entirely missing the point of the DA and their lore. They are "ostensibly", as in it is what they show, but they are not in reality ... it's the entire point of the chapter !

No, they DO function internally as a normal Chapter. Their whole "Legion" stuff doesn't factor into their rules at all. And why would it?
"Ah yes, we function as a Legion, so we get our own unique Codex!"
"But sir, we're only fielding units from our own Chapter, why would it matter if we were a Legion when this battle is only at the company scale?"
"...but we're a-"
"-A Legion, yes, but what does that change? Why are we any different from the other Chapters who are deploying at company strength with the same units as we are?"

DA being a Legion is background fluff, not anything relevant to the game itself.

In reality, they effectively still function as a legion

Which is irrelevant, seeing as the DA still follow Codex organisation doctrines.

and have various number of units (ravenwing, deathwing yes

Wow. Completely generic units with a new coat of paint. Who have a fancy name for two of their companies.

Why is this important? If the White Scars called all their Terminators "White Lightnings", would they get to have a full Codex?

but also all their flyers that are not pilotted by techmarines, because they would be affiliated to mars, etc.)

Okay - but what does that change? It's not like there's some kind of in game effect that makes a difference if they're piloted by Techmarines, Ravenwing, or even little children recently rescued from slavery who think spinning in a good trick. Functionally, a DA flyer is identical to a UM one - look at the two Stormraven profiles, and tell me what the difference is.

and two full compagnies that are tailored to pursue a specific goal, a goal that partially define their identity.

That's a strange way of saying that 80% of the Chapter is completely basic and normal then.

Why are we giving a Codex to a faction that's 80% normal? There's more differences between Scions and Salvar, and yet they share a book!

They also rarely deploy at the compagny level, unlike what the codex suggest

Hang on, why are you ignoring what your own lore says? You wouldn't be arguing from your headcanon, would you?

but in various strike forces that usually have half a compagny and semi-autonomous elements of DW and RW.

Why would the DW and RW deploy if the Fallen weren't present? I thought you just said they were "tailored to pursue a specific goal"?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Stop referencing Psychic Awakening as mandatory. There is every indication that we will be seeing a new edition or codices within the next year or so.

Stop talking out of your ass, you don't know anything about that. And to effectively play a game nowadays you need PA.

I don't own a single PA book, and I play fine.

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Right, I'm just not understanding what you would have in the base codex. Would you have, as you have in the marine supplements, all the units, subfaction tactics for all the kabals and cults and covens, and strats, and then in the subfaction books , say the wych cult book, you'd have Lelith and...just like, relics, warlord traits, strats specific to wych cults?

If so, then...yeah, seems like unnecessary bloat to me. from a practical perspective GW would never do it because Drukhari have pretty much never been a top seller, but from a theoretical perspective I would resent the situation as much as anyone who plays one of the factions that now requires 3-4 books and supplements seems to resent it.

You'd have Lelith Hesperax, additional Relics, additional Warlord Traits, and additional stratagems specific to Wych Cults with perks added if you have an army being taken as a purely Wych Cult army.

The biggest problem that I keep seeing with regards to "the number of books and supplements", currently, is that people continually throw out misinformation about what is or isn't required. Telling people they need to carry Chapter Approved with them at all times, a Psychic Awakening book, and Vigilus with them at all times, alongside of all the possible supplements is just nonsense.

Well sure, but my tolerance level toward buying 50$ books with a 2-year life expectancy to be allowed to play my armies is also pretty fething low. no other modern miniatures game that I've played has required me to buy even two books anywhere near that price to play exactly 1 faction. Most just give you the rules for free nowadays, in the hopes that you'd, I dunno, buy miniatures from the miniatures company.

No, I would not consider getting some 20-30% more rules for my wych cult units to be worth paying 2x as much and carrying a supplement with me. If you gave me a button I could push and rewind the game back to Indexes Only I'd push that button.

WhiteDog wrote:

How can you say that "functionning as a legion" and "being codex adherent" are two different questions ? The codex was create to split up legion, that's the whole point.

No, because those other Chapters aren't part of the DA chapter, they will operate in conjunction with them, but they maintain their own worlds, command structures, recruitment, run their own campaigns, etc, and they operate as Codex adherent chapters in organization (10 companies, 100 marines to a company, etc).

They act cooperatively...sometimes, and some within the setting see that as rebuilding a Legion, but that's about as far as that goes. We can either go with the hinted perception, or the long established, repeated, and unchanging chapter organization we've seen displayed through their entire existence over 7 editions and (IIRC) 6 books over almost a quarter century of time.

Even if we throw that all out the window though, none of that really means much in terms of the DA requiring their own rules source to be properly represented on the table.

And new lore, old lore, this is not an argument, you cannot just handpick what you want.

When we're talking about bloat over time, and how relevant a piece of background is to the tabletop experience, and particularly with a bit of fluff that's as soft and shadowed as this, trying to lean on it as a central pillar of the factions core identity and a requirement for them to have their own rules source doesn't really work.

As for your last sentence, it is contradicting itself : if there are "trivially differentiated factions that share 80-90%+ of their background, units, weapons, profiles, units, etc" then that means that for GW it is very easy to produce content for those factions without having to utilize "development space, marketing and release pipeline time".

This is not true at all. Marketing and release pipeline are exclusive, they are blocks of time, if GW is releasing Dark Angels stuff, they're not releasing anything else for set amount of time, each release gets its own window. The entire logistical back end of laying out, editing, creating art for, printing, packing, storing, and shipping those books takes significant effort and resources even if the gameplay material is rather thin.

And again, that's not the topic of the discussion : the discussion is about rule bloat, and the SM codex bloat. Now you're talking about GW marketing strategy.

Having to update these various books, keep them balanced with each other, is a nightmare the way GW handles 40k, and increasingly GW's design decision to differentiate these factions ends up in significant rules and power bloat to try and generate interest. We end up with all sorts of balance issues, unit availability weirdness, and increasingly bloated abilities, trying to make and keep a ton of different SM factions around as distinct armies.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I say it everytime because apparently people like you forgot or ignore it and start claiming about objectivity or hating a speciic Chapter. maybe don;t make that argument and i wont need to counter eh?

So how do you play DA now: Oh yeah you need a so called Campaign book and a Codex. So totally different to having to have a Codex and supplement. How exactly?

No the supplement would need very little space to add the actual rules changes to make the DA function exactly as they do now. How can you play an army and not know how little rules difference there actually are.

Tell me : do you really think it would change anything for 40K (as in less rule bloat, more sunlight for xenos armies, etc.) if DA/BA/SW were in a supplement ?

Obviously yes.

They would have come out with the other first Founding Chapters.
Lets look at PA alone - we could have more lore, an actual storyline rather than dozens of pages of the same old datasheets.
Less need for whole new round of the same FAQs every time the same stuff is reprinted wrongly in PA.
Less chance for discrepencies between Chapters equipment, rules and pts cost cos they are working on the same base thing
All that means time and effort can be spent on something, anything else without taking a single thing away from the Wolves and the Angels excpet the apparent status symbol of having a Codex.

Bloat is a problem with the entire 8th edition system.
Not just SPESH MAUREENS.
You can devote all your attention on MAUREENS... That won't fix 8th edition.

You guys are just not understanding the topic you wish to discuss.
The idea that marketing and pipeline are exclusive for exemple is such a silly idea ... What matter is the risk and profit that GW might make when they release a product.
It's GW that decide to create half assed product, reprint rules and add quick lore because it is easy and it plays the role of a filler between actual consistent release. If you think PA 3 "Blood of Baal" or PA 4 "Ritual of the damned" actually delayed the return of Ghaz for exemple, or the arrival of the v9, you're just deluding yourself.

Copy pasting the rules of a mini that is already released, like the infiltrator, into a 35€ book is NOT delaying anything : it is a way to make easy money for a compagny, like publishing a new call of duty in gaming for exemple, while not leaving down time and risk losing the contact with the consumers. It's actually those type of product that makes more risky product possible.

But again you're mixing two very different things : the problem of bloat and rules, and GW's marketing strategy.

 ValentineGames wrote:
Bloat is a problem with the entire 8th edition system.
Not just SPESH MAUREENS.
You can devote all your attention on MAUREENS... That won't fix 8th edition.

Yes, exactly. Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

the_scotsman wrote:

Well sure, but my tolerance level toward buying 50$ books with a 2-year life expectancy to be allowed to play my armies is also pretty fething low. no other modern miniatures game that I've played has required me to buy even two books anywhere near that price to play exactly 1 faction. Most just give you the rules for free nowadays, in the hopes that you'd, I dunno, buy miniatures from the miniatures company.

Blame the people who whined about AoS for that one. We got full damn rules for units and everything, people complained about having to carry printouts.

No, I would not consider getting some 20-30% more rules for my wych cult units to be worth paying 2x as much and carrying a supplement with me. If you gave me a button I could push and rewind the game back to Indexes Only I'd push that button.

It would help if you posted the right prices.
Physical:
Codices are $40.
Supplements are $30

Enhanced Edition Digital:
Codices are $37.99 to $39.99
Supplements are $25.99

There's also another argument that has been brought up in the support of the variant marine codex: That they exist because they make money over the other codexs. But there's some major problems there:
*For the first thing, this really is conjecture. GW has never confirmed if that's the case, nor how much any of the products have made other than a throwaway line years ago. I'm not denying that space marines are popular, but whether SW/DA/BA (or even Custrodes/GK/DW) make so much money that they justify themselves has always been a guess.
*Secondly, it assumes that sale begets supports. But as we've seen multiple times, it's the opposite: Support begets sales. When Dark Eldar were lagging on for 11 years, people through they were pointless. But when they got a huge model reveal in 5th they became much bigger in terms of players and now are supported as much as their Craftworld equivalence. Sisters of Battle was through to be squat and their lack of support was a punchline for parts of the community and by GW themselves. Then GW actually went "...wait, do you guys actually want SoB?" and when they came out the SoB box it was sold out for months! Ad mech and Genestealer cults were both legends from the old rogue trader days, and when GW gave them a chance they found out there's a market for it. When something is supported, people will buy it!
*Thirdly, GW can only know what's profitable if there's something to buy. They wouldn't have any data of if variant IG codexes would make money, because they've never done that. A consumer can only buy what exists. The closet thing non marine armies have had in that vain is campaign boxes, which still tend to be generic for most armies.

Copy pasting the same info when it s not needed is the exact defination of Bloat?

Again is this a staus thing that your chosen faction has to have a Codex or its somehow lesser or at the same level as others?

As we noted - having mutiple sources for the same rules simply adds to the chances of errors and balance issues especially when GW can;t be bothered to update the same stuff with the approriate faq.

Again do you think dozens of pages of reprinted data sheets was a good use of finiate resources for the big campaign of the year and there was nothing better that could have been put there.

The awesome part is, that the whole problem only exists because GW insist on publishing rules as books.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I say it everytime because apparently people like you forgot or ignore it and start claiming about objectivity or hating a speciic Chapter. maybe don;t make that argument and i wont need to counter eh?

So how do you play DA now: Oh yeah you need a so called Campaign book and a Codex. So totally different to having to have a Codex and supplement. How exactly?

No the supplement would need very little space to add the actual rules changes to make the DA function exactly as they do now. How can you play an army and not know how little rules difference there actually are.

Tell me : do you really think it would change anything for 40K (as in less rule bloat, more sunlight for xenos armies, etc.) if DA/BA/SW were in a supplement ?

Not only would those things change, but ease of updates as well. You can pretend that Deathwing are SUPER DIFFERENT but the truth is they aren't. Outside mixed wargear they have the useless Morale rule nobody pays attention to. Lose the separate Terminator entries (no we don't need different entries for the different armor Mks) and bam you're done.

 ValentineGames wrote:
Bloat is a problem with the entire 8th edition system.
Not just SPESH MAUREENS.
You can devote all your attention on MAUREENS... That won't fix 8th edition.

It won't fix the entire edition no, but at the same time, it can't be denied that Space Marine bloat is a significant contributor to those issues, and the dizzying array of sub-faction releases plays a major part in that.

 Jidmah wrote:
The awesome part is, that the whole problem only exists because GW insist on publishing rules as books.

No, the problem exists because they continue to release items for factions rather than just reach a stopping point.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
So you think that the Dragon's Claws really need Ravenwing Black Knights to be properly represented?

... you have no idea what you are talking about, right? Do you know what Dragon's claws are?

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The Dark Angels are their own faction. They have stuff in common with the Codex Adeptus Astartes but they have their own stuff. It's kinda the point.

The point is, lorewise they are the same as every chapter, each with it's own peculiarities, gamewise they should be the same as every chapter, a selection of custom traits that fit their lore.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
the invisible hand of the marketplace

Woah we found a true believer .

WhiteDog wrote:
Can we discuss something meaningful to the game and not some drenched out topic that has no relevance whatsoever ?

Yeah, you can. Just click on any other thread in the forum mate, just not on this one if you hate it.

Let me put it this way: you could take all the actual rules pages from Codex: Space Marines, all six Codex Suppliments, Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Death Watch, and all of the related PA pages, put them into a single book the size of Codex: Space Marines and still have half the pages left for fluff.

Whether that constitutes 'bloat' depends on how valuable you personally find the fluff. I like the character-focused blurbs that give a sense of each chapter's overall personality, but there's a lot of "significant battles of [insert chapter name here]" timeline stuff that I mostly gloss over.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
There's also another argument that has been brought up in the support of the variant marine codex: That they exist because they make money over the other codexs. But there's some major problems there:
*For the first thing, this really is conjecture. GW has never confirmed if that's the case, nor how much any of the products have made other than a throwaway line years ago. I'm not denying that space marines are popular, but whether SW/DA/BA (or even Custrodes/GK/DW) make so much money that they justify themselves has always been a guess.
*Secondly, it assumes that sale begets supports. But as we've seen multiple times, it's the opposite: Support begets sales. When Dark Eldar were lagging on for 11 years, people through they were pointless. But when they got a huge model reveal in 5th they became much bigger in terms of players and now are supported as much as their Craftworld equivalence. Sisters of Battle was through to be squat and their lack of support was a punchline for parts of the community and by GW themselves. Then GW actually went "...wait, do you guys actually want SoB?" and when they came out the SoB box it was sold out for months! Ad mech and Genestealer cults were both legends from the old rogue trader days, and when GW gave them a chance they found out there's a market for it. When something is supported, people will buy it!
*Thirdly, GW can only know what's profitable if there's something to buy. They wouldn't have any data of if variant IG codexes would make money, because they've never done that. A consumer can only buy what exists. The closet thing non marine armies have had in that vain is campaign boxes, which still tend to be generic for most armies.

You didn't understand the argument, you can read again. I wasn't talking about SM overall, but specifically about DA/BA/SW. What you didn't take into consideration is that developing product for DA/BA/SW as they did lately does not cost much - it's not only about sells, it's about profit (benefit - costs). To produce a DA or a SW lieutenant, and a PA book (i.e. mostly just reprinting rules that already exist) it doesn't cost much.
Your exemple with the SoB is perfect : just think about the cost that this release had for GW, who had to redo the entire line, recreate rules and playtest them, then market this entire line up and release the army in a way that does not create too much frustration (no long waiting time between release) but that also maximize selling. Sure they certainly made some profit, but more than that they invested for future release. Do you have the same problem for DA/SW/BA ? No, none of that. Everything you invest to develop the SM line can be easily used to develop the SW/DA/BA and thus SW/BA/DA (as they have been thought out in this edition) are not delaying any product or hijacking any ressources.

That being said, I totally agree with most of your points.

Yeah, you can. Just click on any other thread in the forum mate, just not on this one if you hate it.

The subject of rule bloat is a real question ; but people in this sub are just so jealous of SW/DA/Ba that they cannot even understand the complexity of the subject and what to do to prevent it.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
There's also another argument that has been brought up in the support of the variant marine codex: That they exist because they make money over the other codexs. But there's some major problems there:
*For the first thing, this really is conjecture. GW has never confirmed if that's the case, nor how much any of the products have made other than a throwaway line years ago. I'm not denying that space marines are popular, but whether SW/DA/BA (or even Custrodes/GK/DW) make so much money that they justify themselves has always been a guess.
*Secondly, it assumes that sale begets supports. But as we've seen multiple times, it's the opposite: Support begets sales. When Dark Eldar were lagging on for 11 years, people through they were pointless. But when they got a huge model reveal in 5th they became much bigger in terms of players and now are supported as much as their Craftworld equivalence. Sisters of Battle was through to be squat and their lack of support was a punchline for parts of the community and by GW themselves. Then GW actually went "...wait, do you guys actually want SoB?" and when they came out the SoB box it was sold out for months! Ad mech and Genestealer cults were both legends from the old rogue trader days, and when GW gave them a chance they found out there's a market for it. When something is supported, people will buy it!
*Thirdly, GW can only know what's profitable if there's something to buy. They wouldn't have any data of if variant IG codexes would make money, because they've never done that. A consumer can only buy what exists. The closet thing non marine armies have had in that vain is campaign boxes, which still tend to be generic for most armies.

You didn't understood the argument, you can read again. I wasn't talking about SM overall, but specifically about DA/BA/DW.

No it would not. That's the game you play : the SM are the main focus of 40K, that's how it is.

So you didn't say this - which this argument directly addresses?

I wouldn't say there's a rules bloat per se. I'd say the problem is that none of its consolidated in one place. The rules out of faith and Fury for loyalists is 20 pages that's with the BT pages which should have been in the If supplement, otherwise it's only 7 pages! Those 7 pages could have easily been added to the codex

The problem is that GW needs to separate the rules and the fluff. Buy the codex you get 2 books. The fluff and the "field manual" like with chapter approved

 Mr Morden wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
There's also another argument that has been brought up in the support of the variant marine codex: That they exist because they make money over the other codexs. But there's some major problems there:
*For the first thing, this really is conjecture. GW has never confirmed if that's the case, nor how much any of the products have made other than a throwaway line years ago. I'm not denying that space marines are popular, but whether SW/DA/BA (or even Custrodes/GK/DW) make so much money that they justify themselves has always been a guess.
*Secondly, it assumes that sale begets supports. But as we've seen multiple times, it's the opposite: Support begets sales. When Dark Eldar were lagging on for 11 years, people through they were pointless. But when they got a huge model reveal in 5th they became much bigger in terms of players and now are supported as much as their Craftworld equivalence. Sisters of Battle was through to be squat and their lack of support was a punchline for parts of the community and by GW themselves. Then GW actually went "...wait, do you guys actually want SoB?" and when they came out the SoB box it was sold out for months! Ad mech and Genestealer cults were both legends from the old rogue trader days, and when GW gave them a chance they found out there's a market for it. When something is supported, people will buy it!
*Thirdly, GW can only know what's profitable if there's something to buy. They wouldn't have any data of if variant IG codexes would make money, because they've never done that. A consumer can only buy what exists. The closet thing non marine armies have had in that vain is campaign boxes, which still tend to be generic for most armies.

You didn't understood the argument, you can read again. I wasn't talking about SM overall, but specifically about DA/BA/DW.

No it would not. That's the game you play : the SM are the main focus of 40K, that's how it is.

So you didn't say this - which this argument directly addresses?

You have a hard time reading, those are two entirely different things. The quote you took here was arguing that even if DA/SW/BA were in a supplement, it wouldn't change much because GW just focus so much on SM. What I was discussing about cost is that DA/BA/SW do not hijack ressources and delay non-SM faction units because GW do not actually use much ressources just to copy paste rules and release half assed fluff.

If your problem with 40K is that it is too centered on SM, DA/BA/SW are not the cause of it : your problem is with SM.

WhiteDog, I wasn't even quoting you specificly, I was making a general statement and was more arguing against TangoTwoBravo's "Invisible Hand of the Market" Comment than anything.

WhiteDog wrote:
The subject of rule bloat is a real question ; but people in this sub are just so jealous of SW/DA/Ba that they cannot even understand the complexity of the subject and what to do to prevent it.

Sure. Go create your own topic that don't have "Marine" right in the title and maybe there people will not speak about the obvious rule bloat that is having so many Space Marines codex.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
The subject of rule bloat is a real question ; but people in this sub are just so jealous of SW/DA/Ba that they cannot even understand the complexity of the subject and what to do to prevent it.

Sure. Go create your own topic that don't have "Marine" right in the title and maybe there people will not speak about the obvious rule bloat that is having so many Space Marines codex.

You're not even talking about that ??? You're just talking about the usual SW/DA/BA out of frustration.
Nobody here even mention that SM have twice the number of relics, strata and psychic powers than most factions : that's the rule bloat right there. But nonono, the real problem is that some space marine have a codex and others just a supplement ... lal
Did anyone even realized that, for exemple, a Ravenguard librarian has access to twice the number of psychic power than a DA/BA/SW librarian ? And it's the DA/BA/SW that are the source of the bloat ? Really ? ...

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
WhiteDog, I wasn't even quoting you specificly, I was making a general statement and was more arguing against TangoTwoBravo's "Invisible Hand of the Market" Comment than anything.

Ok my bad.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I wouldn't say there's a rules bloat per se. I'd say the problem is that none of its consolidated in one place. The rules out of faith and Fury for loyalists is 20 pages that's with the BT pages which should have been in the If supplement, otherwise it's only 7 pages! Those 7 pages could have easily been added to the codex

I was legitimately surprised that Black Templars were not in the IF book. Agreed on the Chaplain bits.

The problem is that GW needs to separate the rules and the fluff. Buy the codex you get 2 books. The fluff and the "field manual" like with chapter approved

I was wondering if someone else would bring this idea up! I'm totally down for it.

WhiteDog wrote:
Did anyone even realized that, for exemple, a Ravenguard librarian has access to twice the number of psychic power than a DA/BA/SW librarian ? And it's the DA/BA/SW that are the source of the bloat ? Really ? ...

Each having access to different psychic powers is definitely a pretty big source of bloat, really.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
Did anyone even realized that, for exemple, a Ravenguard librarian has access to twice the number of psychic power than a DA/BA/SW librarian ? And it's the DA/BA/SW that are the source of the bloat ? Really ? ...

Each having access to different psychic powers is definitely a pretty big source of bloat, really.

The increasing number of psychic power is definitly a symptom of bloat : throughout psychic awakening, a few factions gained psychic powers for exemple.

Mostly sm and some Clan specific new powers .

Space Marines got whole new disciplines.

Other factions get one power per sub faction.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Space Marines got whole new disciplines.

Other factions get one power per sub faction.

Yes, same for strata / relics : SM overall got more than all other factions. That's a real problem imo.

I agree. The sheer number of books needed is silly, but the deeper issue for me is that marines are seemingly choking and dominating the game's design space; sneaky marines are better than GSC, shooty ones are better than Tau, fighty ones better than Nids and so on.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Stop referencing Psychic Awakening as mandatory. There is every indication that we will be seeing a new edition or codices within the next year or so.

Stop talking out of your ass, you don't know anything about that. And to effectively play a game nowadays you need PA.

Oh. I didn't get that memo.

And in our last game I still kicked the Death Guard all over the table - using only Codex: Dark Angels (& CA'19 for pts).

Game played just fine, so I'm still not wasting $ on Vigilous, &/or PA.