Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And what about the person who only wants to play one Chapter, having to cart around a massive book?

They'll survive.

BrianDavion wrote:
invalid comparison the Tau septs are far less developed.

Man, you'd almost think that one particular race (and I name no names) had been hogging all the development and production.

 vipoid wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
invalid comparison the Tau septs are far less developed.

Man, you'd almost think that one particular race (and I name no names) had been hogging all the development and production.

And then they get all the attention, and then the rules, and then they get the models, so they get all the development and production- huh, sounds like a vicious cycle.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I would object to being a supplement like the others, but not because I think we deserve our own codex, but more because I don't want to buy a $40 codex and a $40 supplement and a $40 psychic awakening.

Flawed assumption that Psychic Awakening will remain a 'must have'.

Replace “Psychic Awakening” with any other Space Marine Supplement under the supplement system.

Not really, with the exception that a new Space Marines codex comes out and removes the supplements from play entirely.

Psychic Awakening and Vigilus both are examples of 'campaign books'. They always have an end date built in.

I don’t know what you meant earlier about a finite amount of errata documents. I think many people would agree that, if they wanted to keep up with the rules and check out any errata, that people would rather look on one big (or two, codex compliant and non-compliant idea) than 10 (or 11 with Black Templars) documents for errata.

Given that you never actually explained your opposition to "multiple erratas", the only reason I can assume someone would be so vehemently opposed to characters and the like being in supplements is that they were under the mistaken belief that the erratas took more time than they do to produce.

It takes no more effort to have multiple printouts than it does to have multiple tabs open on a device. I don't need to look at BT errata to find out what I need to know for RG either.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
invalid comparison the Tau septs are far less developed.

Man, you'd almost think that one particular race (and I name no names) had been hogging all the development and production.

And then they get all the attention, and then the rules, and then they get the models, so they get all the development and production- huh, sounds like a vicious cycle.

and that ladies and gentlemen reveals what this is really about.

Initially said no, but may have changed my mind.

I don't think the existence of multiple factions - marine chapters or otherwise - and the resulting codexes is bloat.

Bloat to my mind is DLC.
You don't *need* Codex Ironhands to play Ironhands. You don't need Faith and Fury to use SM characters. But if you don't have them you are gimping yourself (on the basis of no book=no using of rules). So they are essentially mandatory - and therefore its just added bloat you need to play the game.

If Codex SM had another 60-100 pages of rules in it, it might be heavy, but that isn't bloat. You own it, you've got the rules. Frankly one heavy book is easier to carry around than a seemingly ever expanding list of supplements.

I mean looking at Greater Good for GSC. I could probably squeeze the relevant bits onto a page. (Not difficult tbh - we only got 5 pages to begin with). But now I have to cart around this book if I want to use two stratagems and a psychic power from it. How is this possibly good design?

Now to some degree you can solve this for Marines by abolishing codex SM - you just have that in "Codex Ironhands" - in the same way as the Angels or Wolves codexes. I wouldn't consider that bloat. GW could write as many such books for as many factions as they like - but I don't think you should need to carry round a small library to have the current rules.

The fact there is a Harlequins Faction with a Harlequins book isn't bloat. The fact to play them to the current standard you might potentially need Codex Harlequins, a copy of White Dwarf #453 and "Psychic Eating Breakfast IV: Edgelord" is.

Just look at how Forge World does it.
A single books for ALL the legions. Yes sirs. All of the special rules, characters and units of the legions.
And then, a single books with all the shared units.
And it costs around the same as codex + supplement

All Marines should be rolled into a single Codex.

There are 17 Terminator unit entries across SM, BA, DA, SW & DW which could all fold into a single datasheet easily.

Similarly there are 21 (?!) Dreadnought entries (even with some Chapters not getting certain types for no reason) which could be three just datasheets.

It would be relatively simple to merge the lists together, probably without ending up with any more units than are currently in the generic Marine list.

I think the problem is what we define as "bloat". Although I think it could have been handled in a single book, I don't consider the supplements bloat, as they served a function in that they added rules and fluff for the various chapters that only players of those chapters would be interested in, so they were not a requirement. The sm content in Faith and Fury however, was, as there was no reason that couldn't have been included in the codex, freeing up space that could have been given to the Black Templars and the legions. There is no good reason that sm players should have needed another book for that content so soon after the release of the new codex.

I think you're all asking the wrong question.

You shouldn't be asking "Should this sub-faction been in its own codex?".

You should be asking "When this new sub-faction gets released, would you rather (a) buy version X+1 of your main codex, or (b) a codex for the sub-faction?"

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I would object to being a supplement like the others, but not because I think we deserve our own codex, but more because I don't want to buy a $40 codex and a $40 supplement and a $40 psychic awakening.

Flawed assumption that Psychic Awakening will remain a 'must have'.

Sure, Whatever. I was being generous by including PA. If we ignore PA, I would have to pay 2x as much, instead of 1.5x as much, for books.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I think there's no reason to even have all these supplements and extra codecies and everything in the first place. Space Marine codecies and chapters are all more similar to each other than different IG regiments, and is a little blurb and three rules is good enough for the other factions it's good enough for the Space Marines.

Do you even Guard? I mean seriously, you're talking about a faction that is supposed to be issued standardized equipment (with the variations being based upon local manufacture patterns) and that is known for wasting specialist trained personnel in the usage of the 'standard' tactics.

I'm honestly not interested at all in any faction getting that treatment. I don't even thing Chapter Tactics, Regimental Doctrines, etc. are even necessary to have, and are all in all counterproductive to the spirit of Your Dudes.

So basically, "screw you" to anyone who likes any of the stuff that already exists but "yay" to whatever fanwank nonsense people like to throw out?

As a further note, the Space Marines have some serious bloat. They have so many units and unit options, many of which never see the table or are totally forgotten for extended periods of time, and many of which overlap with each other in capability.

Unit bloat, as mentioned previously. is not the topic of this thread. Make your own thread if you want to talk about it.

But for the record:
A lot of the issue comes from the splits we saw with the Ward era books. Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans didn't have to be a thing, nor did we need the Centurion variants, or the (as of right now) wasteful Captain/Librarian/Chaplain profiles that don't actually do anything differently.

Do you Guard?

Is it just me, or were there no less than at least eight different sets of models to represent the Imperial Guard infantry line not including Forgeworld, with two still remaining available as completely different sets of models. Space Marines have, at best, upgrade sprues that are just moulded shoulder pads, and the only difference between them being paint scheme, plus Grey Hunters.


It's also not a screw you. This hobby is A: built on the idea of "Your Dudes", and B: for an extended period of time, didn't have to have specific rules for a small handful of selected subfactions, much less an entire book full of them for a small set of the established subfactions. We got along just fine without Chapter Tactics and Regimental Doctrines for quite a while.

Anyone remember how nice it was when we just had like, 5 indexes and that was everything, for every faction?

Bloat is absolutely the problem with the Marine books. The fundamental problem of 8e is that GW's desire to "simplify" and "streamline" the core gameplay has left the game really really boring unless they then go back and stack hundreds of stratagems, warlord traits, psychic powers, relics, etc. on top of it to convince us that there's still some element of choice/list-building/gameplay. The game is dull. The endless bloat is a band-aid patch to make it slightly less dull because the alternative would be to admit that the fun has been stripped out of 8e in the name of simplification.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Anyone remember how nice it was when we just had like, 5 indexes and that was everything, for every faction?

That was really nice.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crispy78 wrote:
The guard factions are all one codex aren't they?

By "Guard", I'm referring to potentially offering up something like a Cadian supplement that has Creed, Kell, and Pask in them alongside of rules for Cadian Detachments and unique units.
I'd take it a step further, personally, and remove their access to certain things in exchange for those unique units.
Same goes for the Catachans.

Not sure you could do the same with the eldar. There isn't a single common unit between any of the 3 eldar factions. It's not like the space marine factions where lots of the vehicles and units are the same...

I think you've misunderstood the reference to the Aeldari and Drukhari. It wasn't saying that you could turn Drukhari into a supplement book for them or the like--it was opening up space for stuff like a Wych Cult book with expanded rules for Wych Cults, a Kabalite book, and a Coven book.

With Aeldari, some of the factions have as many unique units and characters(which is to say "they have a single one" ) as a good chunk of the Codex Chapters that got supplements did for Marines.

In that case, yes I did misread you. Sounds like you're actually proposing addressing the problem of rules bloat by bloating everything else to the same level as the space marines. No thanks. Two main reasons:

1) I am not made of money, and spend enough on GW rule books as it is

2) Based on the quality of their output I think GW are already releasing rules/books faster than they can cope with

 Kanluwen wrote:

I think there's no reason to even have all these supplements and extra codecies and everything in the first place. Space Marine codecies and chapters are all more similar to each other than different IG regiments, and is a little blurb and three rules is good enough for the other factions it's good enough for the Space Marines.

Do you even Guard? I mean seriously, you're talking about a faction that is supposed to be issued standardized equipment (with the variations being based upon local manufacture patterns) and that is known for wasting specialist trained personnel in the usage of the 'standard' tactics.

Do you actually believe that a proud, elite regiment like the Vostroyan Firstborns is the same as a penal regiment like the Chem dogs? Or that the Death Korp uses the same tactics as the Catachan?
That makes absolutely 0 sense.
I can't believe you somehow think that the catachan muscle shirts are just "variation based upon local manufacture patterns" compared to Cadian flak armor when anyone having a cursory look at the model can say for certain that they aren't!

 Kanluwen wrote:
So basically, "screw you" to anyone who likes any of the stuff that already exists but "yay" to whatever fanwank nonsense people like to throw out?

Precisely. In pen & paper RPG, you can decide you want to play the pre-rolled characters from the book. But that shouldn't be the default mode, and there should never, ever be any rules that are specific to them, that player-made characters cannot match. Same for 40k, really.
The subfaction system, if there is one, should be all about letting you create your own chapter, and named chapters should just be pre-rolled chapters.
"If you want to play Ultramarine, then use subtrait X and subtrait Y"

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Precisely. In pen & paper RPG, you can decide you want to play the pre-rolled characters from the book. But that shouldn't be the default mode, and there should never, ever be any rules that are specific to them, that player-made characters cannot match. Same for 40k, really.
The subfaction system, if there is one, should be all about letting you create your own chapter, and named chapters should just be pre-rolled chapters.
"If you want to play Ultramarine, then use subtrait X and subtrait Y"

IMO special characters should also work this way.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest if there are sub factions with their own codex. Would something like a Black Templars Codex have a bunch of overlap with another chapter's Codex? Sure, but that player would have all of their rules consolidated in one place. I would certainly prefer chapter Codices over supplements.


The real bloat problem is needing so many books for a single arymy: Codex, Vigilus, PA, Supplements,CA,FAQ.

I think a lot of the issues with the consolidators is the presence of existing plastic kits.
You are not going to have Black Knights, Deathwing Knights and Sanguinary Guard, Thunderwolf Cav, Wulfen available for every army.....that's a really dumb suggestion, so cross that one off.

Now let's say you have a "core" marine codex, and add supplements. I feel this could be done as long as you start to caveat what can and can't be used in certain armies. Is it fair to give dark Angels access to every codex SM unit, and then give them all the extras on top? Not really, and many units don't fit existing fluff for some chapters anyway.

So you have a core SM codex added first, with zero special options for unique chapters, including Chapter traits. Hey, if DA and BA have to wait months for a release, so does mary sue Ultras. Or you include all the Chapter traits at the back, including DA, BA and SW. No super doctrines. You will also need to add a keyword line to entries that indicate what chapters can and can't use (sorry, I don't want my lore retconned just to fulfill your bloat anger).

After that, release supplements for the chapters, but not one per chapter...consolidate them.
Angels of Death..Blood Angels, Dark Angels.
Bastions of the Imperium or whatever..Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars (although they don't really fit...but are IF successors)
Swift Hunters or whatever...White Scars, Raven Guard.
Indominatable force (or what the hell ever)...Iron hands, Salamanders.
I guess you could put the bottom four together, they don't have a ton of extra stuff really.

now, this is appeasing the consolidators, as for me personally, I really like the Raven Guard supplement, thought it was great. I'd much rather cut bloat from supplements like Vigilus, and Pyschic Awakening. leave them as campaign books only, not rules updates. It's not like every marine player is going to buy every supplement, but they do take up shelf space and release time on the schedule.

even with the above, you still have at least 4 marine books (Core, Angels, Bastions, others) which still wouldn't appease the consolidators.

bloat is not the problem, it is a symptome for the problem that there is no clear design goal and GW wants to have everything at once

there are not enough play styles and battlefield roles available to have 10 different Marine factions with double the amounts of units (regular and primaris) with everyone being unique and "balanced"

so adding more and more special rules to make units unique, adding more army specific rules to make them unique and "bloat" becomes the solution of the problem

Imagine how much better the game could be if GW only released a new unit if they could justify it in rules, fluff and range diversity rather than purely on can they sell it.

I like the fact that all subfactions are getting their own rules.

You know what would get rid of bloat?

Redoing the main rules properly and establishing USRs so that everything is covered by a rule in the main book. Not having 50 new rules in every unit entry that ever so slightly differs from another unit that does the exact same thing.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You know what would get rid of bloat?
Redoing the main rules properly and establishing USRs so that everything is covered by a rule in the main book. Not having 50 new rules in every unit entry that ever so slightly differs from another unit that does the exact same thing.

no, this won't work as GW already tried it several times
but because they do not think ahead while writing the core and/or feel that the new Subfaction released need something that make them more different you end up with the same bloat

re-using USR's that are already in the Core Book does no justify a new book release for GW

Bloat it is.

How many times have the same datasheets been reprinted in the PA so called campaign taking up room that could have been used for any of the following:

Actual new lore
Actual new units
Actual scenarios

its such a waste and so sad.

Do we really need a differnt dataslate for every different unit carrying every indivdual weapon option in the Marine arsenal?

How many Marine datassheets are there now?

no, this won't work as GW already tried it several times
but because they do not think ahead while writing the core and/or feel that the new Subfaction released need something that make them more different you end up with the same bloat

re-using USR's that are already in the Core Book does no justify a new book release for GW

But It would work if GW could be consistent for once and stick to a design format.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

But It would work if GW could be consistent for once and stick to a design format.

they believe that they won't sell any new books or units if they do so

 vipoid wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Precisely. In pen & paper RPG, you can decide you want to play the pre-rolled characters from the book. But that shouldn't be the default mode, and there should never, ever be any rules that are specific to them, that player-made characters cannot match. Same for 40k, really.
The subfaction system, if there is one, should be all about letting you create your own chapter, and named chapters should just be pre-rolled chapters.
"If you want to play Ultramarine, then use subtrait X and subtrait Y"

IMO special characters should also work this way.

Yes!

I feel like folks are arguing past echother and there is actually a lot of middle ground.

All the special rules and datatsheets should be consolidated into as few sources as possible. It's completely stupid that GW ties poorly written, phoned in rules, to the back ground and artwork. This would allow them to patch and update the matched play rules more frequently and cost effectively and would make the rules more accessible to players. I think it's way past due for a living digital document BTW. They can still sell physical copies, but put digital codes into the book and or sell downloadable access for those not interested or with a second hand copy.

I think it is fine and actually really awesome that every sub-faction get their own supplement. There could be 100 of them, get as specific and small as you want and make them really nice with collector editions like they due now, but make them for fluff and background with artwork and timelines only. That way when some poor sucker buys his $150 dollar ultra collectors edition, it isn't worthless in 6 months like tends to occur often now. I have been playing since the mid 90's and I really don't need 6 copies of the same background for my armies. I'd rather buy one really nice supplement that I can hold onto even across new editions.

What has always made folks sour is GW tying rules to the fluff. It was more tolerable a decade ago or longer when you wouldn't see an update for years and the books were cheaper, not only that by the time the books were updated so were most of the models including new entries, but now it's almost comical. Look at the marine stratagems and how much overlap there is. It's a joke, every one of them has over a dozen of the exact same strat reprinted and as others have said, they don't even bother updating them after errata so you need an equal number of patches. Heck even on a smaller scale, how many factions have a 3cp fight again strat? (although some are strangely more restrictive) Why not just make that a generic strat everyone has access to like the interrupt?

Anyway, I imagine a living document and some kind of army builder software is in the future because the game needs some core rules updates pretty badly and I honestly don't think GW can get away with starting from scratch again this soon out after the last indexes. Especially given the future of global economics going ahead.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Anyone remember how nice it was when we just had like, 5 indexes and that was everything, for every faction?

While some of them weren't balanced very well, it was my favorite time to actually PLAY 8th, as it was so much simpler.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
And again in actual rules/datasheets what exactly needs to be added to basic unit to igve Dark Angels the options to run Deathwing/Ravenwing. Why exactly is a Codex needed rather than at most a suppplement?
Which units in the Wolves could not be handled by minor unit options or name changes and again how is this not handable by a most a Supplement.

Why remove a Codex from a chapter that has had one since 1996?

Because its time.