Is it actually bloat that's the problem with the Marine books?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Apple Peel**

Size of an item—don’t forget the extra weight of all those hard covers compared to only two.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
And what about the person who only wants to play one Chapter, having to cart around a massive book?

What about the person that wants to play Tau sept T’au? Why do they have to carry five other Septs. They’ll get over it.

**BrianDavion**

invalid comparison the Tau septs are far less developed. Marine chapters have their own books because people are willing to buy them.

**Apple Peel**

BrianDavion wrote:
invalid comparison the Tau septs are far less developed. Marine chapters have their own books because people are willing to buy them.

What about the people that only want to play Matched play? Why do they have to carry around narrative? What about Orks that want to just play Evils Suns, Speed Freaks?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe lots of lore development should stay in Black Library books, while rules stay in rule books. Maybe a bare minimum of lore to get a person interested, but no more.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Kanluwen wrote:
And what about the person who only wants to play one Chapter, having to cart around a massive book?

Then they realize they were ripped off when they find out 90% of their Raven Guard entries are the same as the Ultramarine ones, and now if they want to try Ultramarines they'd have to buy a book with just 10% different content.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple Peel wrote:
Size of an item—don’t forget the extra weight of all those hard covers compared to only two.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
And what about the person who only wants to play one Chapter, having to cart around a massive book?

What about the person that wants to play Tau sept T’au? Why do they have to carry five other Septs. They’ll get over it.

And they shouldn't have those god awful expensive hardcovers to begin with. When I started we had the basic soft covers and they were super nice. Now they're a convoluted mess, even with something like Grey Knights and Custodes who don't have a lot of entries!

**Racerguy180**

Kanluwen wrote:
Apple Peel wrote:

We do have the keyword system now, so get over the past. Nobody said to remove their unique units. At most, some lore pages might be removed. Less books means less separate errata documents.
Shared units that have no differences among the chapters are in a collective section. Space Wolves’ unique units and other chapters’ likewise units go into a unique section with their own datasheets. Each chapter still has its own unique rules section with warlord traits, strats, etc.

And then all you've done is create two massive books, rather than one book and a supplement.

Just so we are clear:
"Bloat" to me is unnecessarily inflating the size of an item. Rolling a bunch of books that have no real rhyme or reason other than "they're Marines" is bloat.

right?? Its nonsensical why they want to roll everything into one huge book that would cost more & be bigger than the BRB.

Whether the rules are in one book or not does not reduce "bloat". GW has figured out what works for book content(balance of lore, art & rules...which is subjective). put out a codex with the majority of common units and follow up with supplemental(they supplement the codex) material for specific factions. SW, BA/DA, DW, GK & BT should be supplements(just larger due to uniqueness) to the regular codex.

this may suck for players who have to have whatever is bestest & need to buy all so they have (in)efficiencies to exploit. that is a bed of their own making. But if they apply this to the rest of the factions it can only be good for the game(as GW intend it to be played).

**Luke_Prowler**

Kanluwen wrote:
And what about the person who only wants to play one Chapter, having to cart around a massive book?

If I remember correctly, Imperial Index 1 (the one with all the space marines) was 224 pages, and that didn't stop anyone form buying it. So clearly it's not a big enough problem to stop people from playing the game, nor does having to share the book with other factions stop people from playing, you know, literally every other codex in the game.

**Slayer-Fan123**

It is bloat, because it IS overinflated. Have you not read those codices and seen how many redundant entries each one has?

**Apple Peel**

Racerguy180 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Apple Peel wrote:

We do have the keyword system now, so get over the past. Nobody said to remove their unique units. At most, some lore pages might be removed. Less books means less separate errata documents.
Shared units that have no differences among the chapters are in a collective section. Space Wolves’ unique units and other chapters’ likewise units go into a unique section with their own datasheets. Each chapter still has its own unique rules section with warlord traits, strats, etc.

And then all you've done is create two massive books, rather than one book and a supplement.

Just so we are clear:
"Bloat" to me is unnecessarily inflating the size of an item. Rolling a bunch of books that have no real rhyme or reason other than "they're Marines" is bloat.

right?? Its nonsensical why they want to roll everything into one huge book that would cost more & be bigger than the BRB.

Whether the rules are in one book or not does not reduce "bloat". GW has figured out what works for book content(balance of lore, art & rules...which is subjective). put out a codex with the majority of common units and follow up with supplemental(they supplement the codex) material for specific factions. SW, BA/DA, DW, GK & BT should be supplements(just larger due to uniqueness) to the regular codex.

this may suck for players who have to have whatever is bestest & need to buy all so they have (in)efficiencies to exploit. that is a bed of their own making. But if they apply this to the rest of the factions it can only be good for the game(as GW intend it to be played).

OH! It’s gonna be so much bigger! People will break their backs carrying it! Oh the humanity! Two books at current Space Marine Price on the other hand...

**edwardmyst**

Nothing new here...but;
It's bloat. I play White Scars, and buying a separate book for them was a joke. Five pages would have handled it in the basic marine book. So yeah, five extra pages for the what 5-8 other chapters that got the same amount added in? I'll carry forty extra pages. Of course, in my case, please sell me a Space Marine book that doesn't waste a page (or more) of bad fluff per unit. I'm rarely a fan. Or better, because there are huge fans and good for them, sell two separate books. One that just has all the rules I need to play, and one that also includes the fluff.
Yes, will not happen because books on books on books is another moneymaking part of GW (and they are a business.)

**bullyboy**

Tell you what I don't want to see...DA, SW and BA rolled into a generic SM codex. Now, that doesn't mean that they can't be combined into a singular book (who didn't like the old Angels of death book?), but separate from a generic SM book.

Downside to this is Primaris. They are so generic that if GW wants all marines to go Primaris, then by all means put them in one book. Don't pretend that there are differences for the other marine factions with Primaris, if the goal is to eventually get rid of Deathwing terms, Ravenwing bikes, Sanguinary guard, etc. It would make the most boring marine book ever, but GW seems to like boring and generic these days.

**Apple Peel**

bullyboy wrote:
Tell you what I don't want to see...DA, SW and BA rolled into a generic SM codex. Now, that doesn't mean that they can't be combined into a singular book (who didn't like the old Angels of death book?), but separate from a generic SM book.

Yes!

bullyboy wrote:

Downside to this is Primaris. They are so generic that if GW wants all marines to go Primaris, then by all means put them in one book. Don't pretend that there are differences for the other marine factions with Primaris, if the goal is to eventually get rid of Deathwing terms, Ravenwing bikes, Sanguinary guard, etc. It would make the most boring marine book ever, but GW seems to like boring and generic these days.

That’s if we assume they homogenize with Primaris, instead of GW reselling people their Thunderwolf Cavaly with Primaris Thunderwolf Cavaliers, and etc.

**pm713**

Mr Morden wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
pm713 wrote:
My, probably unpopular, opinion is that DA and SW definitely had enough uniqueness to warrant their own books. Then GW put things like all biker/termie armies and chapter tactics into the vanilla book which rather defeated the point.

At this point I'd massively cut back on what's in the vanilla book so that's not got things like 5 supplements. Vanilla Marines should just be vanilla marines rather than non-compliant Chapters but with more and better stuff.
Chaos can have the one Chaos Marine book with DG and co in it, Harlequins go into a generic Eldar minor faction codex with Ynnari and proper Corsairs, Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Assassins, Sisters of Silence and Custodes go into an Imperial Special Forces book.

Really, I'd change a lot but that's the broad codex changes and other things don't really fit into that.

Hilarious/tyrpical Marine focussed logic that you consider Wolves and Angels somehow different enough that they absolutely need a super special Codex of their own but entire races have to settle with one as do all none Marine Imperials.

Dark Angels special rules could be fitted on a single page of A4, half the Wolves stuff is something that many Chapters should have access to - Chainswords, mutants (Black Dragons etc), Terminator squad leaders (Iron Hands). Much of their specialiness is name changes, weapon options or single rules.

Angels are focused on the ravenwing and deathwing and wolves have numerous units that are different in both fluff and gameplay purpose to vanilla equivalents.

What races do you mean?

Mutants is a weird claim. How many of them are actually different in practice to other Marines? Black Dragons are their bone blades are one but then what? Special profiles for Salamanders? For Raven Guard?

Single Codex for Eldar apparently and we already have just the one Codex for Orks, Necrons and Tau cos they don't derserve more?

And again in actual rules/datasheets what exactly needs to be added to basic unit to igve Dark Angels the options to run Deathwing/Ravenwing. Why exactly is a Codex needed rather than at most a suppplement?
What.... What would you actually put in a new Eldar codex? The closest you get to needing that is one for each major craftworld which is just silly bloat.

**Kanluwen**

Apple Peel wrote:

OH! It’s gonna be so much bigger! People will break their backs carrying it! Oh the humanity! Two books at current Space Marine Price on the other hand...

Fun fact: check the page count on C: Space Marines(the initial 8th edition book) compared to the one that came out with the Vanguard and supplements.

Did you know that the new one, despite having an entirely new range of models that dropped with it, has less pages?

**Apple Peel**

Kanluwen wrote:
Apple Peel wrote:

OH! It’s gonna be so much bigger! People will break their backs carrying it! Oh the humanity! Two books at current Space Marine Price on the other hand...

Fun fact: check the page count on C: Space Marines(the initial 8th edition book) compared to the one that came out with the Vanguard and supplements.

Did you know that the new one, despite having an entirely new range of models that dropped with it, has less pages?

Did you add in the page count for the DA, BA, SW, and (optionally) BT? That’s the one book space marine option.

**Kanluwen**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
And what about the person who only wants to play one Chapter, having to cart around a massive book?

If I remember correctly, Imperial Index 1 (the one with all the space marines) was 224 pages, and that didn't stop anyone form buying it. So clearly it's not a big enough problem to stop people from playing the game, nor does having to share the book with other factions stop people from playing, you know, literally every other codex in the game.

The Indexes were softback and something like $25 a pop...additionally they were the only ways to get the rules for your factions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple Peel wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Apple Peel wrote:

OH! It’s gonna be so much bigger! People will break their backs carrying it! Oh the humanity! Two books at current Space Marine Price on the other hand...

Fun fact: check the page count on C: Space Marines(the initial 8th edition book) compared to the one that came out with the Vanguard and supplements.

Did you know that the new one, despite having an entirely new range of models that dropped with it, has less pages?

Did you add in the page count for the DA, BA, SW, and (optionally) BT? That’s the one book space marine option.

Figure it out yourself. It's your idea.

I'm telling you, however, that with the characters and their fluff stripped out and Vanguard added in? The new book still came up less with less of a page count.

**Apple Peel**

Kanluwen wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
And what about the person who only wants to play one Chapter, having to cart around a massive book?

If I remember correctly, Imperial Index 1 (the one with all the space marines) was 224 pages, and that didn't stop anyone form buying it. So clearly it's not a big enough problem to stop people from playing the game, nor does having to share the book with other factions stop people from playing, you know, literally every other codex in the game.

The Indexes were softback and something like $25 a pop...additionally they were the only ways to get the rules for your factions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple Peel wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Apple Peel wrote:

OH! It’s gonna be so much bigger! People will break their backs carrying it! Oh the humanity! Two books at current Space Marine Price on the other hand...

Fun fact: check the page count on C: Space Marines(the initial 8th edition book) compared to the one that came out with the Vanguard and supplements.

Did you know that the new one, despite having an entirely new range of models that dropped with it, has less pages?

Did you add in the page count for the DA, BA, SW, and (optionally) BT? That’s the one book space marine option.

Figure it out yourself. It's your idea.

I'm telling you, however, that with the characters and their fluff stripped out and Vanguard added in? The new book still came up less with less of a page count.

Stripping out characters, (all) the fluff—See there’s a problem. That’s good for the inferior supplement system with ten total books and corresponding errata documents. We aren’t arguing on the same level and it’s dishonest.

**Gadzilla666**

Speaking from a csm perspective, the 3.5 codex covered all the legions better than what we have currently in less pages than just the current "vanilla" csm codex. Return to that design philosophy and bump the page count up to the current ig codex and you could make all the legions feel unique with a single book, instead of making them all feel like Black Legion with different paint schemes like the current one. Preferably with far less reliance on strategems for legion flavor.

This approach would work with other factions.

**Karol**

But isn't this all like digital games? take a game, cut stuff from it and turn it in to DLCs, and battle passes etc. Of course GW could make a GK player have all in one book, but why would they do that, if they can make us buy 2-3 books, followed by a yearly battle pass type of book. It is in GWs interest to split the content and make as many books as possible. Plus it is a bonus for them while dealing with people like me. I was willing to wait for 2 years for a fix to my army, while the more sensible thing to do, would probably be to drop the army, and maybe the game.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Karol wrote:
But isn't this all like digital games? take a game, cut stuff from it and turn it in to DLCs, and battle passes etc. Of course GW could make a GK player have all in one book, but why would they do that, if they can make us buy 2-3 books, followed by a yearly battle pass type of book. It is in GWs interest to split the content and make as many books as possible. Plus it is a bonus for them while dealing with people like me. I was willing to wait for 2 years for a fix to my army, while the more sensible thing to do, would probably be to drop the army, and maybe the game.

We're not talking about what GWs interest is though. This process is what leads to 6th and eventually 7th *shudders*. People say they want oodles and oodles of stuff added until they actually see what happens. It also just so happens people have short term memory here apparently and forgot that the last two editions were a fething mess.

**Kanluwen**

Apple Peel wrote:

Stripping out characters, (all) the fluff—See there’s a problem. That’s good for the inferior supplement system with ten total books and corresponding errata documents.

Out of the Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, and White Scars?
Only two of those books had multiple characters--Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists.

If you want to pretend that there is some kind of finite number of errata documents that they can publish? That's dishonest as hell. Remember that we only saw the errata staggered out with the supplements because the supplements were staggered out.

We aren’t arguing on the same level and it’s dishonest.

Fine, you want a finite count?
Current Codex: Space Marines is 76 datasheets. That is with every named character and the few Chapter specific units stripped out.
Dark Angels is 76 datasheets before the addition of the Vanguard and the Repulsor Executioner.
Space Wolves and Blood Angels are 77 datasheets each, before the addition of the Vanguard and the Repulsor Executioner.

Each of those would receive an additional 10 datasheets, thanks to the Phobos lineup and the Repulsor Executioner.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Except we don't need all the redundant Captain entries either.

**Kanluwen**

Arguable. I'd rather see more unique entries/abilities start cropping up for the various types than I would seeing them all rolled into a "Take X for Y points".

**Karol**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Karol wrote:
But isn't this all like digital games? take a game, cut stuff from it and turn it in to DLCs, and battle passes etc. Of course GW could make a GK player have all in one book, but why would they do that, if they can make us buy 2-3 books, followed by a yearly battle pass type of book. It is in GWs interest to split the content and make as many books as possible. Plus it is a bonus for them while dealing with people like me. I was willing to wait for 2 years for a fix to my army, while the more sensible thing to do, would probably be to drop the army, and maybe the game.

We're not talking about what GWs interest is though. This process is what leads to 6th and eventually 7th *shudders*. People say they want oodles and oodles of stuff added until they actually see what happens. It also just so happens people have short term memory here apparently and forgot that the last two editions were a fething mess.

I know only stories about those editions, so hardly any real knowladge. \maybe GW alawys makes a mess, maybe they are not intersted in making a good game and just making money. I had this revelation lately about my trainers, they don't really care about me or other people. They care about having jobs and getting us in to good clubs, so they can make money selling us supplements etc. Maybe GW is just like that. They want people money, they want good sells, people that work at GW want to keep their jobs and have a good salary. Making , what ever counts as good, games is maybe not even a real goal for anyone.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

Kanluwen wrote:
To avoid starting a new off-topic tangent in the Psychic Awakening thread for Pariah, Deathwatch, and the Harlequins I thought I would pull a quote out that I found interesting:

ERJAK wrote:

If we're eliminating bloat it starts and ends with marines. There's half a dozen totally unnecessary codexes with another half dozen completely superfluous supplements in kicking around now.

You could get rid of half of all the books in the game by just bringing marines down to something reasonable.

For a long time, there were complaints about the size of the Marine book. Even before the Primaris were around, Codex: Space Marines was one of the heftier books. Cut to supplements expanding the Codex Chapters(and Black Templars, I guess? ) which contain:
-Characters for that faction
-Stratagems
-Relics
-Special Rules for a pure faction army.

And all of a sudden each book is being treated as "necessary"? Why do I need Iron Hands if I play Salamanders? Why would I need Ultramarines if I play Imperial Fists?

Yeah, I get it that people still have bees in their bonnets about the existence of Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels as separate books. Would DA, BA, and SW players bat an eye if their codices were instead set up as Supplement Books like Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and the other Codex Chapters?

If you got:
-Characters+special units/errata to grant keywords(ie: Intercessors or Tactical Squads could be given the 'Grey Hunters' keywords for SW for a pointed upgrade)
-Stratagems
-Relics
-Special Rules for a pure faction army.
Would you consider it a fair trade for being updated whenever the generic Marine book got updated?

Would other factions be interested in a similar treatment, if it's possible(the ones that immediately spring to mind are Aeldari, Drukhari, Chaos Marines[vanilla] and some of the Guard subfactions)?

I've added a poll to the top that will run for 5 days. Feel free to explain your vote choice.

I would object to being a supplement like the others, but not because I think we deserve our own codex, but more because I don't want to buy a $40 codex and a $40 supplement and a $40 psychic awakening.

I think there's no reason to even have all these supplements and extra codecies and everything in the first place. Space Marine codecies and chapters are all more similar to each other than different IG regiments, and is a little blurb and three rules is good enough for the other factions it's good enough for the Space Marines.

I'm honestly not interested at all in any faction getting that treatment. I don't even thing Chapter Tactics, Regimental Doctrines, etc. are even necessary to have, and are all in all counterproductive to the spirit of Your Dudes.

As a further note, the Space Marines have some serious bloat. They have so many units and unit options, many of which never see the table or are totally forgotten for extended periods of time, and many of which overlap with each other in capability.

**Dudeface**

I'm actually OK with the idea of the supplements for marines, but consolidate the copy paste stuff into codex space marines, make the chapter specifics into supplements referring back to the codex ala 3rd ed.

Could do the same with chaos marines, although I feel the legions are a bit more divergent in range and scope than the marines.

Xenos have their faction specific books as per now, with the option to expand into corairs or speed waaaghs or w/e.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Canadian 5th wrote:We'd get less lore, fewer pieces of unique chapter-specific art, less attention paid to special rules and unique units.

How can you say that for certain?

I'd rather see each and every major player in 40k get their own book that is given as much love and care as Codex Ultramarines. Baring that the current level of unique releases is preferable to consolidating things down into bland bundles where nobody gets as much love.

Eh, not quite my approach, but as long as you're okay with everyone getting Codex treatment, I can't argue with that.

Luke_Prowler wrote:If I remember correctly, Imperial Index 1 (the one with all the space marines) was 224 pages, and that didn't stop anyone form buying it. So clearly it's not a big enough problem to stop people from playing the game, nor does having to share the book with other factions stop people from playing, you know, literally every other codex in the game.

I have to say, I really liked the Index approach.

Why aren't we all more happy with that?

**Racerguy180**

I'd be fine with an index type thing that was the only rules available for matched/tournament style play. everyone has the same # of strats available that are fixed along with CP. Fixed Psychic powers that work same/same warp charge. Fixed deployment maps/objectives. That way all can be balanced relative to each other in an objective, rather than the subjective way, which other posters seem to imply.

It gives people who only care about rules, can buy that book & everyone else who likes the game can buy the codex & supplements.

No condensation of the Angel's, Wolves, Templars, Knights, Watch(unless you want that, which is solved above). Putting all Terminator armour marks on one dataslate(if that's what you want, see above), and whatever other complaints that only pertain to "competitive play"(see above).

**Kanluwen**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I would object to being a supplement like the others, but not because I think we deserve our own codex, but more because I don't want to buy a $40 codex and a $40 supplement and a $40 psychic awakening.

Flawed assumption that Psychic Awakening will remain a 'must have'.

I think there's no reason to even have all these supplements and extra codecies and everything in the first place. Space Marine codecies and chapters are all more similar to each other than different IG regiments, and is a little blurb and three rules is good enough for the other factions it's good enough for the Space Marines.

Do you even Guard? I mean seriously, you're talking about a faction that is supposed to be issued standardized equipment (with the variations being based upon local manufacture patterns) and that is known for wasting specialist trained personnel in the usage of the 'standard' tactics.

I'm honestly not interested at all in any faction getting that treatment. I don't even thing Chapter Tactics, Regimental Doctrines, etc. are even necessary to have, and are all in all counterproductive to the spirit of Your Dudes.

So basically, "screw you" to anyone who likes any of the stuff that already exists but "yay" to whatever fanwank nonsense people like to throw out?

As a further note, the Space Marines have some serious bloat. They have so many units and unit options, many of which never see the table or are totally forgotten for extended periods of time, and many of which overlap with each other in capability.

Unit bloat, as mentioned previously. is not the topic of this thread. Make your own thread if you want to talk about it.

But for the record:
A lot of the issue comes from the splits we saw with the Ward era books. Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans didn't have to be a thing, nor did we need the Centurion variants, or the (as of right now) wasteful Captain/Librarian/Chaplain profiles that don't actually do anything differently.

**Dandelion**

Imo, the indexes were far superior to codexes because they actually had all the rules we needed in one place (especially for inquisition and assassins). The idea that we need an entire book for one faction or sub faction is just bafflingly inefficient.

**Apple Peel**

Kanluwen wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I would object to being a supplement like the others, but not because I think we deserve our own codex, but more because I don't want to buy a $40 codex and a $40 supplement and a $40 psychic awakening.

Flawed assumption that Psychic Awakening will remain a 'must have'.

Replace “Psychic Awakening” with any other Space Marine Supplement under the supplement system.
I don’t know what you meant earlier about a finite amount of errata documents. I think many people would agree that, if they wanted to keep up with the rules and check out any errata, that people would rather look on one big (or two, codex compliant and non-compliant idea) than 10 (or 11 with Black Templars) documents for errata.