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A fairly straightforward question, really: What is the best shooty unit in the game that is also a troop choice? Not asking what the best shooty army is overall, nor what the best troop choice is overall. Rather, what are the more powerful shooty units that one would want to take in an army, not having to consider them a force-org 'tax'?

As a veteran of several editions ago but a noob to 8th, my knowledge of the current state of the game is limited, but the impression I get is that Tau fire warriors and Necron immortals with tesla seem to be contenders.

DW intercessors with auto bolt rifles using hellfire rounds. You get 30 shots at 24" that wound any non vehicle, non titanic unit, on 2s, regardless of toughness. When using the furor mission tactics, troop choices can re-roll 1s to wound. And when you are in half range, or less, you can use boltstorm to auto hit with 30 shots. You cant use boltstorm yet, but you can once WD 453 is out, it was previewed on WC. In T2, auto bolt rifles get AP-1, when the tactical doctrine is active, DW also gets this in WD 453.

Those Intercessors sound brutal, and I think Tesla Immortals are pretty strong in numbers. I've been really happy with the new Battle Sisters. I run them as cheap screens, mini gun lines with stormbolters, and suicide melta squads. They're nice cheap ObSec with BS3+, power armor, spammable specials, and bunch of nice buff options. I can use a Brigade's worth every game.

The humble guardsman. 4 pts for a wound and a lasgun. Add an officer and that's 4 shots each at 12" range. Those numbers add up.

 p5freak wrote:
DW intercessors with auto bolt rifles using hellfire rounds. You get 30 shots at 24" that wound any non vehicle, non titanic unit, on 2s, regardless of toughness. When using the furor mission tactics, troop choices can re-roll 1s to wound. And when you are in half range, or less, you can use boltstorm to auto hit with 30 shots. You cant use boltstorm yet, but you can once WD 453 is out, it was previewed on WC. In T2, auto bolt rifles get AP-1, when the tactical doctrine is active, DW also gets this in WD 453.

Thats not for a second how mission tactics work.

Intercessors.

Sterling191 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DW intercessors with auto bolt rifles using hellfire rounds. You get 30 shots at 24" that wound any non vehicle, non titanic unit, on 2s, regardless of toughness. When using the furor mission tactics, troop choices can re-roll 1s to wound. And when you are in half range, or less, you can use boltstorm to auto hit with 30 shots. You cant use boltstorm yet, but you can once WD 453 is out, it was previewed on WC. In T2, auto bolt rifles get AP-1, when the tactical doctrine is active, DW also gets this in WD 453.

Thats not for a second how mission tactics work.

What does this mean?

Personally, 12 AdMech Kataphron Destroyers with Plasma and Flamers are an amazing shooting base.

Edit: Spelling.

Kabalite Warriors are a contender.

They may look unexceptional on paper, but when combined with a Venom or Raider, Kabalites have lots of firepower, mobility, and surprising durability, for a modest price. While it may seem cheaty to include a transport into the equation, it is very much their intended play style.

Saythings wrote:

What does this mean?

Mission tactics key off of the target you are shooting, not the unit that is doing the shooting. Deathwatch dont get to wave their hands and say "All my troop units now reroll their 1s because MAGIC". They have to, at the beginning of the game, choose a single force organization role to target. That is in effect for the entire game, unless you pay CP to change it via various means.

Hellfire rounds are spicy. But it doesnt for a moment make up for the advantages that regular Marine Intercessors have.

 harlokin wrote:
Kabalite Warriors are a contender.

They may look unexceptional on paper, but when combined with a Venom or Raider, Kabalites have lots of firepower, mobility, and surprising durability, for a modest price. While it may seem cheaty to include a transport into the equation, it is very much their intended play style.

They are pretty nuts. Open topped is broken in 8th, imo.

Tempestus Scions could well be a contender. A five man squad could have three plasma weapons while a ten man squad could have 5 plasma weapons. You are shooting like marines while benefiting from orders.

Could change that up and load up with Hot-Shot Volley guns and play up the antiMEQ or do straight Hot-Shot Lasguns for antiGEQ.

Only downfall is that that they are 4+ save, but you should be annihilating whatever you deepstrike them at or vehicle deploy them at.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Tempestus Scions could well be a contender. A five man squad could have three plasma weapons while a ten man squad could have 5 plasma weapons. You are shooting like marines while benefiting from orders.

Could change that up and load up with Hot-Shot Volley guns and play up the antiMEQ or do straight Hot-Shot Lasguns for antiGEQ.

Only downfall is that that they are 4+ save, but you should be annihilating whatever you deepstrike them at or vehicle deploy them at.

4+ is not much worse than 3+ in 8th ed.

A buffed ulthwe guardian bomb is pretty deadly, 40 str 4 shots hitting on 2s with a strat, rerolling failed hits for guide, rerolling failed wounds with doom, with a base -1 ap from a craftworld trait going up to a -3 on 6's. Two of the guardians can fire heavy weapons platforms, losing four catapult shots. Jinx and reveal can improve the damage output considerably too.
Using the catapults alone they do 21 wounds to meq and 34 to geq, 16 wounds to a rhino and 9 to a knight.

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Tempestus Scions could well be a contender. A five man squad could have three plasma weapons while a ten man squad could have 5 plasma weapons. You are shooting like marines while benefiting from orders.

Could change that up and load up with Hot-Shot Volley guns and play up the antiMEQ or do straight Hot-Shot Lasguns for antiGEQ.

Only downfall is that that they are 4+ save, but you should be annihilating whatever you deepstrike them at or vehicle deploy them at.

4+ is not much worse than 3+ in 8th ed.

On toughness 3 bodies it not very nice

Not to keep laying on the intercessor thing, but Auto Bolt Rifles are also Assault, so their combat doctrine starts T3.

Sterling191 wrote:

Mission tactics key off of the target you are shooting, not the unit that is doing the shooting. Deathwatch dont get to wave their hands and say "All my troop units now reroll their 1s because MAGIC". They have to, at the beginning of the game, choose a single force organization role to target. That is in effect for the entire game, unless you pay CP to change it via various means.

Ok, i got that wrong. But the outcome is the same. A DW unit gets to reroll 1s to wound, when they fire with hellfire rounds, wounding on 2s.

Sterling191 wrote:

Hellfire rounds are spicy. But it doesnt for a moment make up for the advantages that regular Marine Intercessors have.

How are regular SM intercessors better than DW intercessors with hellfire rounds, when shooting at a non vehicle T5 unit ? DW intercessors with bolt rifles wounds on 2s, SM intercessors with bolt rifles wound on 5s.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Not to keep laying on the intercessor thing, but Auto Bolt Rifles are also Assault, so their combat doctrine starts T3.

This is false.

Tactical Doctrine applies to Rapid Fire and Assault weapons.

Assault Doctrine applies to pistols and melee weapons.

You will gain the doctrine on Turn 2.

 p5freak wrote:


Ok, i got that wrong. But the outcome is the same. A DW unit gets to reroll 1s to wound, when they fire with hellfire rounds, wounding on 2s

Still wrong. Let's walk through it one more time.

Mission Tactics are selected at the beginning of the game and only apply to a single selected force organization role. They do not get to reroll 1s unless the target is specifically in that role or they are under the effect of a relic that allows you to select a new role.

They can reroll 1s when they jump through hoops, which is an important distinction. Up to every player to decide how much those hoops matter.

Considering a better troop choice than DW auto bolt rifle Intercessors existed for an awful long time already, I'm not sure why this one means so much to you. Is it because of Boltstorm?

Lemondish wrote:

Mission Tactics are selected at the beginning of the game and only apply to a single selected force organization role. They do not get to reroll 1s unless the target is specifically in that role or they are under the effect of a relic that allows you to select a new role.

How is it wrong when the DW unit with hellfire rounds shoots at an enemy unit from the selected force organization role ?? They wound them on 2s (if its a non vehicle unit), and get to reroll 1s.

Lemondish wrote:

Considering a better troop choice than DW auto bolt rifle Intercessors existed for an awful long time already, I'm not sure why this one means so much to you. Is it because of Boltstorm?

What SM troop choice is better than a DW troop choice with hellfire rounds ?? SM and DW troop choices are the same. Both can use intercessors with bolt rifles, auto bolt rifles, and stalker bolt rifles. But only DW gets to use hellfire rounds.

Simple, and that's Vanilla Intercessors since they get more access to different Strats and MUCH better Chapter Tactics.

 p5freak wrote:

How is it wrong when the DW unit with hellfire rounds shoots at an enemy unit from the selected force organization role ?? They wound them on 2s (if its a non vehicle unit), and get to reroll 1s.

Because you're acting like they get to do it all the time. They most certainly do not, and the number of things Hellfire doesnt work against in the competitive environment is far larger than you think. If you're going down that road, then we're going to bake in Master Artisans, a Lieutenant and a Chapter Master buff to non-DW Intercessors.

 p5freak wrote:


How is it wrong when the DW unit with hellfire rounds shoots at an enemy unit from the selected force organization role ?? They wound them on 2s (if its a non vehicle unit), and get to reroll 1s.

The important part is you're ignoring the impact of selecting the correct force organization role. It's an important distinction. You cannot benefit from rerolls 1s against all targets the way a Space Marine unit can. Perhaps wrong was the incorrect way for me to describe it. The statement was incomplete. When we're trying to outline the 'best shooty troop choice', those distinctions become absolutely necessary, I feel. It's strong, but not a guarantee, and that should be factored in when ranking these bad boys.

 p5freak wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Considering a better troop choice than DW auto bolt rifle Intercessors existed for an awful long time already, I'm not sure why this one means so much to you. Is it because of Boltstorm?

What SM troop choice is better than a DW troop choice with hellfire rounds ?? SM and DW troop choices are the same. Both can use intercessors with bolt rifles, auto bolt rifles, and stalker bolt rifles. But only DW gets to use hellfire rounds.

I wasn't even talking about SM - I was referring to DW. Deathwatch Storm Bolter Veterans, or Deathwatch bolt rifle Intercessors with Rapid Fire strat in the same range band as the auto bolt guys are even better largely because 40 3+ shots with even a Captain reroll aura will produce more hits than Boltstorm will. The Vets don't even need a CP expense to do it. If DW bolt rifle Intercessors with 40 shots from Rapid Fire in 15'' is going to produce more hits next to a Captain than Boltstorm would, and as such result in more damage given the baseline increased AP and the same chance to wound with Hellfire rounds, then your suggestion isn't even the best option in Deathwatch, let alone the game.

But lets look at the Space Marine side of things, shall we? All numbers from mathhammer app for what it's worth.

10 man Imperial Fist Intercessors with bolt rifles in Tactical Doctrine at 30" next to a Lt. aura and a Chapter Master, using 2 CP for the Rapid Fire bolt rifle stratagem:
*Toughness matters here, so it's a str 4 weapon at AP -2 with exploding sixes to hit, under reroll auras that you absolutely will have for everything in your army (i.e. you aren't bringing them just for this unit, so their cost is irrelevant here)
Against T3, 5+ - 34.5 unsaved wounds
Against T3, 4+ - 28.7 unsaved wounds
Against T4, 3+ - 17.2 unsaved wounds
Against T4, 2+ - 12.9 unsaved wounds
Against T5+, 3+ - 11.5 unsaved wounds
Against T5+, 2+ - 8.6 unsaved wounds

10 man Deathwatch Intercessors with auto bolt rifles in Tactical Doctrine at 12" with Mission Tactics applied to the target, using 2 CP for Boltstorm:
*Since toughness doesn't matter for hellfire SIA, only the save comes into effect. This is 30 autohits, wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s, and then facing a save at AP -1
Against 5+ save unit - 24.3 unsaved wounds
Against 4+ save unit - 19.4 unsaved wounds
Against 3+ save unit - 14.5 unsaved wounds
Against 2+ save unit - 9.7 unsaved wounds

Looks like this unit is weaker against a majority of valid targets at 12", and only squeaks by with a comparative win when they face heavily armoured Toughness 5-7 targets who are not in cover. The Boltstorm stratagem does allow them to operate without the aid of a Watch Master or Captain, but delivery is a concern and the above expected damage will not apply across every target in a single game. Being good against the T5-7 units often times means not having reroll 1s to wound against the rest of your opponent's forces without a CP cost. That trade off means they are not the better of the two.

Once you start factoring in CP cost for delivery and Mission Tactics manipulation, which is totally fine to do since we're looking at best case scenario in instances where you have full control, then you have to do the equivalent expenditure for the IF. When you give them 2 more CP to use, they'll use it on Bolter Drill, further increasing the amount of hits well above the number of shots, which results in an increase in damage without any corresponding need to change how they are used.

Forgetting that they're worse than other DW options, this paints a pretty clear picture that DW Auto-bolt rifle Intercessors with Hellfire and supported by Boltstorm aren't the best shooty troops unit. They aren't better than IF Intercessors except in a few match ups, and even then they lose out a lot in others. I don't think that qualifies as 'best shooty unit' if it's beat in most match ups by another shooty troops unit, don't you?

Edit: All this to say that, while you're right that they're a pretty good shooty troops unit, they aren't the best (in DW or otherwise).

It's a bit of a tricky question I think, but as OP stated "troops that don't feel as a tax" I'm too very pleased with the humble IG Infantry Squad. 4 points/dude are hard pressed to feel like a tax and do what they have to do pretty well - keeping the more valuable units in the game, contesting objectives and maybe even touch a tank now and then. They are also surprisingly fast with their "Move Move Move" order or as Tallarn.

But I can't argue against the other things mentioned.

Point for point scions are clearly the highest damage shooting choices. They're huge glass cannons because all their points value is loaded into offense. Intercessors only compare when you're spending huge amounts of CP and HQ points on improving their shooting.

The question is a pretty meaningless one because troops aren't for shooting, but FWIW, there is a a clear answer.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Point for point scions are clearly the highest damage shooting choices. They're huge glass cannons because all their points value is loaded into offense. Intercessors only compare when you're spending huge amounts of CP and HQ points on improving their shooting.

The question is a pretty meaningless one because troops aren't for shooting, but FWIW, there is a a clear answer.

Honestly can't disagree with this. For outright shooting, nothing beats Scions for real.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Tempestus Scions could well be a contender. A five man squad could have three plasma weapons while a ten man squad could have 5 plasma weapons. You are shooting like marines while benefiting from orders.

Could change that up and load up with Hot-Shot Volley guns and play up the antiMEQ or do straight Hot-Shot Lasguns for antiGEQ.

Only downfall is that that they are 4+ save, but you should be annihilating whatever you deepstrike them at or vehicle deploy them at.

4+ is not much worse than 3+ in 8th ed.

On toughness 3 bodies it not very nice

Even that doesn't mean what it used to. Everything dies in 8th with a few exceptions. The cheaper the model, usually the better. Scions are dope for shooting. Can't they go to ground? That's like having 3+ armor. For what that matters.

I really have my eyes on the xenos side of things.

Ork boys. Ork boys everywhere. With da jump in red suns charges 8" with re-rolls. And they just never stop comming.

Kraken genstealers charge turn one with the swarmlord. Although a bit glass cannony. Also a very iconic unit.

The humble ripper swarm for 33 points. Deep strikes onto objectives, takes behind enemy lines. Lacks the infantery keywords so titans can not walk over them (literarly.)

The termagaunts. 4 points and fearles. Or 8 points with assault 3, S4.

Thefurtive GSC Neophyte Hybrids. Shoots 2 lascannon shots for 74 points.

Or the acolyte hybrids. Best titan killers in the game when they show up. There is no hiding from them! As you can see from this picture they are terefyingly good at their job!

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Tempestus Scions could well be a contender. A five man squad could have three plasma weapons while a ten man squad could have 5 plasma weapons. You are shooting like marines while benefiting from orders.

Could change that up and load up with Hot-Shot Volley guns and play up the antiMEQ or do straight Hot-Shot Lasguns for antiGEQ.

Only downfall is that that they are 4+ save, but you should be annihilating whatever you deepstrike them at or vehicle deploy them at.

4+ is not much worse than 3+ in 8th ed.

On toughness 3 bodies it not very nice

Even that doesn't mean what it used to. Everything dies in 8th with a few exceptions. The cheaper the model, usually the better. Scions are dope for shooting. Can't they go to ground? That's like having 3+ armor. For what that matters.

Oh yeah, spending a CP a turn for one unit! Very good!

 Niiai wrote:
I really have my eyes on the xenos side of things.

Ork boys. Ork boys everywhere. With da jump in red suns charges 8" with re-rolls. And they just never stop comming.

Kraken genstealers charge turn one with the swarmlord. Although a bit glass cannony. Also a very iconic unit.

The humble ripper swarm for 33 points. Deep strikes onto objectives, takes behind enemy lines. Lacks the infantery keywords so titans can not walk over them (literarly.)

The termagaunts. 4 points and fearles. Or 8 points with assault 3, S4.

Thefurtive GSC Neophyte Hybrids. Shoots 2 lascannon shots for 74 points.

Or the acolyte hybrids. Best titan killers in the game when they show up. There is no hiding from them! As you can see from this picture they are terefyingly good at their job!

he said shooting

Stealers and Ork buys are like shooting. In your face turn one. Living bullits with your name on it!

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Tempestus Scions could well be a contender. A five man squad could have three plasma weapons while a ten man squad could have 5 plasma weapons. You are shooting like marines while benefiting from orders.

Could change that up and load up with Hot-Shot Volley guns and play up the antiMEQ or do straight Hot-Shot Lasguns for antiGEQ.

Only downfall is that that they are 4+ save, but you should be annihilating whatever you deepstrike them at or vehicle deploy them at.

4+ is not much worse than 3+ in 8th ed.

On toughness 3 bodies it not very nice

Even that doesn't mean what it used to. Everything dies in 8th with a few exceptions. The cheaper the model, usually the better. Scions are dope for shooting. Can't they go to ground? That's like having 3+ armor. For what that matters.

Oh yeah, spending a CP a turn for one unit! Very good!

Which is excactly how a Problem for an army with am acess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
Stealers and Ork buys are like shooting. In your face turn one. Living bullits with your name on it!

By that Standards Alpha legion zerkers would be considered an artillery barrage.


Overall, my pick probably would be the autobolter dudes.

For chaos, probably the humble msu csm with reaper chaincannon squad.