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Not Online!!! wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Tempestus Scions could well be a contender. A five man squad could have three plasma weapons while a ten man squad could have 5 plasma weapons. You are shooting like marines while benefiting from orders.

Could change that up and load up with Hot-Shot Volley guns and play up the antiMEQ or do straight Hot-Shot Lasguns for antiGEQ.

Only downfall is that that they are 4+ save, but you should be annihilating whatever you deepstrike them at or vehicle deploy them at.

4+ is not much worse than 3+ in 8th ed.

On toughness 3 bodies it not very nice

Even that doesn't mean what it used to. Everything dies in 8th with a few exceptions. The cheaper the model, usually the better. Scions are dope for shooting. Can't they go to ground? That's like having 3+ armor. For what that matters.

Oh yeah, spending a CP a turn for one unit! Very good!

Which is excactly how a Problem for an army with am acess?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
Stealers and Ork buys are like shooting. In your face turn one. Living bullits with your name on it!

By that Standards Alpha legion zerkers would be considered an artillery barrage.


Overall, my pick probably would be the autobolter dudes.

For chaos, probably the humble msu csm with reaper chaincannon squad.

AM access. That’s nice for a Militarum Regimentum/Militarum Tempestus Astra Militarum soup, but pure Militarum Tempestus doesn’t have brigade access. Besides, doing your typical Stormtrooper drop force list, you are maybe using this Get Down once for sure in the alpha strike from the Valkyries while your other squads are protected by psychic powers. The rest of your CP is going into extra Warlord traits and relics, TDF strat, and other offensive power-up strats like Efficacy or Grenadiers or Precision Drop or Advanced Counter Measures before game.

Neophytes are actually pretty good too, mining lasers and webbers are very points efficient.

Well, a couple of questions for clarification:

Are you looking in a vacuum? That is, just the troops with no support, like a captain, a dedicated transport, etc?

Secondly how are they arranged? That is, a single unit at min size? Max size? At how many points?

I ask because a single 10-man Guard squad with lasguns? Not scary. But if you have ten of them? Well, now it's spooky.

Same for Orks… a 10 Boyz unit with choppas and no Da jump is just 70 pts of target practice that'll never kill anything. A 30 strong unit of Skarboyz with Da Jump on hand, however? That's MURDER.

A pack of 5 genestealers? Not a big deal. A pack of 20, with all the upgrades, powered by a Broodloard to give them a rerollable turn 1 charge at 30" or so? YIKES.

So... what kind of support, if any, and what point level? 300 pts of Guard goes a long way...



,

With psychic support, shrouded incursors or infiltrators will keep on working till the end and if they were not so expensive psybolt ammo/astral aim grey knights can be pretty good.

With less support it's either intercessors or scions depending on whether you need durability or a scalpel unit. Kappic Eagles scions being able to throw out an army wide -1 is pretty insane too.

Insularum wrote:
With psychic support, shrouded incursors or infiltrators will keep on working till the end and if they were not so expensive psybolt ammo/astral aim grey knights can be pretty good.

With less support it's either intercessors or scions depending on whether you need durability or a scalpel unit. Kappic Eagles scions being able to throw out an army wide -1 is pretty insane too.

You're usually better off going with +6" range than an extra -1 AP, since it doubles your shots.

For reference, against the following saves, assuming the basic Hellgun hits and wounds, you get...

Save.....-1 AP.......2 Shots
5-7+.........1...............2
4+............1...............1.67
3+...........0.83..........1.33
2+...........0.67..........1
1+...........0.5............0.67
0+..........0.33..........0.33
-1+.........0.17..........0.33

So, if you're dealing with... Um... Bullgryns with Slabshields in cover with Psychic Barrier, then -1 AP is equal to two shots.
Literally any other situation results in two shots being more effective.

Wakshaani wrote:

A pack of 5 genestealers? Not a big deal. A pack of 20, with all the upgrades, powered by a Broodloard to give them a rerollable turn 1 charge at 30" or so? YIKES.

Can genestealers shoot now ??

 p5freak wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

A pack of 5 genestealers? Not a big deal. A pack of 20, with all the upgrades, powered by a Broodloard to give them a rerollable turn 1 charge at 30" or so? YIKES.

Can genestealers shoot now ??

Technically yes, just no-one ever takes the guns on them

Arson Fire wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

A pack of 5 genestealers? Not a big deal. A pack of 20, with all the upgrades, powered by a Broodloard to give them a rerollable turn 1 charge at 30" or so? YIKES.

Can genestealers shoot now ??

Technically yes, just no-one ever takes the guns on them

What is so good about their shootingvid that it has better rules then guns! You can get right in there and shoot the ting behind what you are in combat with. No simple gun rules for stealers, no sir!

Wakshaani wrote:
Well, a couple of questions for clarification:

Are you looking in a vacuum? That is, just the troops with no support, like a captain, a dedicated transport, etc?

Secondly how are they arranged? That is, a single unit at min size? Max size? At how many points?

I ask because a single 10-man Guard squad with lasguns? Not scary. But if you have ten of them? Well, now it's spooky.

Same for Orks… a 10 Boyz unit with choppas and no Da jump is just 70 pts of target practice that'll never kill anything. A 30 strong unit of Skarboyz with Da Jump on hand, however? That's MURDER.

A pack of 5 genestealers? Not a big deal. A pack of 20, with all the upgrades, powered by a Broodloard to give them a rerollable turn 1 charge at 30" or so? YIKES.

So... what kind of support, if any, and what point level? 300 pts of Guard goes a long way...



,

I don't see any reason to ignore the unit's interactions with other units, or other special rules with which they have a certain synergy. I don't make any stipulations regarding squad size or points limit. Just whatever a codex allows. When comparing different units, I think it makes sense to compare them point for point, so while 100 guardsmen might be scary, it is not necessarily more scary than the points equivalent in Intercessors that you could field. So when I ask for the 'best shooty troop choice', implied within this is 'at a given points level'. Obviously, fairness dictates that like be compared with like, as far as points are concerned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One option which might deserve a mention is the GK strike squad. Although they might not be exactly the best, once they get within rapid fire range they are putting out 4 shots per model, which is better than Intercessors (if only in this one respect). Psilencers are also nice, and quite dangerous against multi-wounded models. Psybolt ammunition gives these squads a lot of extra 'bite' against T4 and power armour.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Insularum wrote:
With psychic support, shrouded incursors or infiltrators will keep on working till the end and if they were not so expensive psybolt ammo/astral aim grey knights can be pretty good.

With less support it's either intercessors or scions depending on whether you need durability or a scalpel unit. Kappic Eagles scions being able to throw out an army wide -1 is pretty insane too.

You're usually better off going with +6" range than an extra -1 AP, since it doubles your shots.

For reference, against the following saves, assuming the basic Hellgun hits and wounds, you get...

Save.....-1 AP.......2 Shots
5-7+.........1...............2
4+............1...............1.67
3+...........0.83..........1.33
2+...........0.67..........1
1+...........0.5............0.67
0+..........0.33..........0.33
-1+.........0.17..........0.33

So, if you're dealing with... Um... Bullgryns with Slabshields in cover with Psychic Barrier, then -1 AP is equal to two shots.
Literally any other situation results in two shots being more effective.

Sorry I wasn't quite clear - I was thinking aloud of the Kappic strat tactical misdirection not the additional AP boost from Lambden Lions, you have to give up some of the better scions regimental doctrines to unlock it so you do lose a bit of punch, but you gain -1 to hit on all units that are not a closer target than the Kappic unit that triggered the strat (so it should apply to allies).

I think it would help to clarify how to take "best" choice.

Best fire power?
Best staying power?
Useful in most situations/roles/most adaptable?
Best at what their intended role in their army is?
Most cost efficient, so they don't feel like a tax?
Best at filling out requirements for detachments?

It really depends a lot on this definition. I mean as I mentioned the IG Infantry squad: they are definitly not the best at fire or staying power and can not fill out as much roles as other troop choices, but they are very cost effective, do what they are intended to do pretty good and 120 points to fill the troop part of a battallion/240 for a brigade is a very good deal that is hard to beat. Especially if they act as CP battery for a more important detachment they (40 points per unit) and AdMech Rangers (35 points) definitly deserve a honorable mention

Insularum wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Insularum wrote:
With psychic support, shrouded incursors or infiltrators will keep on working till the end and if they were not so expensive psybolt ammo/astral aim grey knights can be pretty good.

With less support it's either intercessors or scions depending on whether you need durability or a scalpel unit. Kappic Eagles scions being able to throw out an army wide -1 is pretty insane too.

You're usually better off going with +6" range than an extra -1 AP, since it doubles your shots.

For reference, against the following saves, assuming the basic Hellgun hits and wounds, you get...

Save.....-1 AP.......2 Shots
5-7+.........1...............2
4+............1...............1.67
3+...........0.83..........1.33
2+...........0.67..........1
1+...........0.5............0.67
0+..........0.33..........0.33
-1+.........0.17..........0.33

So, if you're dealing with... Um... Bullgryns with Slabshields in cover with Psychic Barrier, then -1 AP is equal to two shots.
Literally any other situation results in two shots being more effective.

Sorry I wasn't quite clear - I was thinking aloud of the Kappic strat tactical misdirection not the additional AP boost from Lambden Lions, you have to give up some of the better scions regimental doctrines to unlock it so you do lose a bit of punch, but you gain -1 to hit on all units that are not a closer target than the Kappic unit that triggered the strat (so it should apply to allies).

Ah, okay. That's my bad!

Pyroalchi wrote:
I think it would help to clarify how to take "best" choice.

Best fire power?
Best staying power?
Useful in most situations/roles/most adaptable?
Best at what their intended role in their army is?
Most cost efficient, so they don't feel like a tax?
Best at filling out requirements for detachments?

It really depends a lot on this definition. I mean as I mentioned the IG Infantry squad: they are definitly not the best at fire or staying power and can not fill out as much roles as other troop choices, but they are very cost effective, do what they are intended to do pretty good and 120 points to fill the troop part of a battallion/240 for a brigade is a very good deal that is hard to beat. Especially if they act as CP battery for a more important detachment they (40 points per unit) and AdMech Rangers (35 points) definitly deserve a honorable mention

I suppose what I am looking for is the best shooty unit qua shooty unit. So firepower is the priority.

Without to points then to contextualise absolutely intercessors.

For raw firepower I would say Kataphron Destroyers with plasma culverins and cognis flamers in a Ryza Servitor Maniple detachment. D6 S8 AP-3 3 damage shots each with +1 to wound rolls, can be made to hit on 2+ re-rolling 1s and an automatic 6 hits from the flamer in Overwatch.

Purely in terms of damage output guardians comfortably outstrip intercessors for less points, they lack range obviously but they kick out lots of damage.
If we take max squads, 20 guardians Vs ten intercessors, with no support whatsoever and no doctrine bonus.
Against geq, guardians do 12.59 wounds, bolt rifles do 7.4, stalkers do 8.88 (but only kill four) and assault bolters do 8.89 wounds.
Against meq guardians do 6.66, bolt rifles 3.33, stalkers do 4.44 (again only killing two) and assault bolters do 3.33.

 kingheff wrote:
Purely in terms of damage output guardians comfortably outstrip intercessors for less points, they lack range obviously but they kick out lots of damage.
If we take max squads, 20 guardians Vs ten intercessors, with no support whatsoever and no doctrine bonus.
Against geq, guardians do 12.59 wounds, bolt rifles do 7.4, stalkers do 8.88 (but only kill four) and assault bolters do 8.89 wounds.
Against meq guardians do 6.66, bolt rifles 3.33, stalkers do 4.44 (again only killing two) and assault bolters do 3.33.

Every intercessor weapon has at least double range on a shuriken catapult though, so by the time guardians shoot once intercessors have shot twice. In a mirror match of equal points intercessors vs guardians, intercessors win every time (even if the guardians go first) due to intercessors always getting at least 1 shooting phase at full strength while the guardians close in, once the guardians are in 12" range they will just be shot and charged in the next intercessor turn.

Chapter tactics, combat doctrines, reroll auras from mandatory HQ's and unit specific stratagems will all help tip the balance further towards the intercessor over the guardian.

Yes, range is important here. Range is definitely a big part of what I would describe as the 'firepower' of the unit. More range means more shooting phases in which you are killing things, so we shouldn't be confined only to looking at things like S, AP, or number of shots.

Insularum wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Purely in terms of damage output guardians comfortably outstrip intercessors for less points, they lack range obviously but they kick out lots of damage.
If we take max squads, 20 guardians Vs ten intercessors, with no support whatsoever and no doctrine bonus.
Against geq, guardians do 12.59 wounds, bolt rifles do 7.4, stalkers do 8.88 (but only kill four) and assault bolters do 8.89 wounds.
Against meq guardians do 6.66, bolt rifles 3.33, stalkers do 4.44 (again only killing two) and assault bolters do 3.33.

Every intercessor weapon has at least double range on a shuriken catapult though, so by the time guardians shoot once intercessors have shot twice. In a mirror match of equal points intercessors vs guardians, intercessors win every time (even if the guardians go first) due to intercessors always getting at least 1 shooting phase at full strength while the guardians close in, once the guardians are in 12" range they will just be shot and charged in the next intercessor turn.

Chapter tactics, combat doctrines, reroll auras from mandatory HQ's and unit specific stratagems will all help tip the balance further towards the intercessor over the guardian.

I already acknowledged the lack of range, so this will assume the guardians deep strike, because they always do.
We'll go for a iron father Ferios, a lieutenant and a master apothecary for the 5++ and a 5+++ and give the intercessors assault bolters in tactical doctrine. This totals 400 pts but they're the tankiest intercessors as far as I know. Ferios will use his signum and we'll give them the mercy is weakness stratagem to buff their damage. (I could go further with making them veterans but then I could add in lightening fast reflexes etc so I've kept it to one stratagem each to avoid going too crazy.)
The guardians will be supported by a farseer and two warlocks, they also get two platforms with star cannons to round it up to 396 points. The guardians use a custom craftworld choosing martial citizenry to re roll 1's to hit and hail of doom to make their catapults -1 ap. They get buffed with Protect and fortune plus the celestial shield stratagem for a 4++ and the intercessors get debuffed by doom and jinx.
The intercessors do a bit over six wounds to the guardians, removing the platforms and a couple of guardians.
The guardians do just over 10 wounds with their catapults and 2.3 with the star cannons.
The above totals assume that they're full strength when firing.
Obviously psychic powers can fail etc so it's likely to be a bit closer in the real world but buffed guardians are insanely good.

Doom/Jinx/Protect/Fortune/Celestial Shield + deepstriking from webway is pretty much a shopping list of all the best things you can do, and all of those abilities other than webway are once per turn limited. IRL, if you stick a max size close range shooty unit in deepstrike, a marine player will anticipate needing to use auspex scan, which would kick in before any of the buffs can take effect for a reliable 10 wounding hits from auto rifles at a T3 unit without any character aura influence. Regardless of chapter, marines will always shoot first and there will not be enough guardian firepower to wipe 10 intercessors in 1 phase, next turn the guardians will be shot and charged.

By contrast, intercessors are always pretty good, at any range or squad size, with or without support, and have good stratagems for when needed. Guardians do have the potential to make a very killy unit, but they are not always universally good like intercessors are.

Insularum wrote:

Spoiler:

 kingheff wrote:

Insularum wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Purely in terms of damage output guardians comfortably outstrip intercessors for less points, they lack range obviously but they kick out lots of damage.
If we take max squads, 20 guardians Vs ten intercessors, with no support whatsoever and no doctrine bonus.
Against geq, guardians do 12.59 wounds, bolt rifles do 7.4, stalkers do 8.88 (but only kill four) and assault bolters do 8.89 wounds.
Against meq guardians do 6.66, bolt rifles 3.33, stalkers do 4.44 (again only killing two) and assault bolters do 3.33.

Every intercessor weapon has at least double range on a shuriken catapult though, so by the time guardians shoot once intercessors have shot twice. In a mirror match of equal points intercessors vs guardians, intercessors win every time (even if the guardians go first) due to intercessors always getting at least 1 shooting phase at full strength while the guardians close in, once the guardians are in 12" range they will just be shot and charged in the next intercessor turn.

Chapter tactics, combat doctrines, reroll auras from mandatory HQ's and unit specific stratagems will all help tip the balance further towards the intercessor over the guardian.

I already acknowledged the lack of range, so this will assume the guardians deep strike, because they always do.
We'll go for a iron father Ferios, a lieutenant and a master apothecary for the 5++ and a 5+++ and give the intercessors assault bolters in tactical doctrine. This totals 400 pts but they're the tankiest intercessors as far as I know. Ferios will use his signum and we'll give them the mercy is weakness stratagem to buff their damage. (I could go further with making them veterans but then I could add in lightening fast reflexes etc so I've kept it to one stratagem each to avoid going too crazy.)
The guardians will be supported by a farseer and two warlocks, they also get two platforms with star cannons to round it up to 396 points. The guardians use a custom craftworld choosing martial citizenry to re roll 1's to hit and hail of doom to make their catapults -1 ap. They get buffed with Protect and fortune plus the celestial shield stratagem for a 4++ and the intercessors get debuffed by doom and jinx.
The intercessors do a bit over six wounds to the guardians, removing the platforms and a couple of guardians.
The guardians do just over 10 wounds with their catapults and 2.3 with the star cannons.
The above totals assume that they're full strength when firing.
Obviously psychic powers can fail etc so it's likely to be a bit closer in the real world but buffed guardians are insanely good.

Doom/Jinx/Protect/Fortune/Celestial Shield + deepstriking from webway is pretty much a shopping list of all the best things you can do, and all of those abilities other than webway are once per turn limited. IRL, if you stick a max size close range shooty unit in deepstrike, a marine player will anticipate needing to use auspex scan, which would kick in before any of the buffs can take effect for a reliable 10 wounding hits from auto rifles at a T3 unit without any character aura influence. Regardless of chapter, marines will always shoot first and there will not be enough guardian firepower to wipe 10 intercessors in 1 phase, next turn the guardians will be shot and charged.

By contrast, intercessors are always pretty good, at any range or squad size, with or without support, and have good stratagems for when needed. Guardians do have the potential to make a very killy unit, but they are not always universally good like intercessors are.

Intercessors are easily better all round troops, no argument there. I never use guardians without planning to buff them to the max, personally I think it's the only way to make them good. At 8ppm normally I actually think they're pretty overcosted, 8ppm for geq defences and a 12" gun isn't exactly great! Unbuffed they are still good damage wise but you really have to use wave serpents to get them in range and that makes them even more overcosted.
Auspex scan is definitely a big problem! in that case I'd not target intercessors but something bigger and lightening fast reflexes them if the do get auspexed anyway for a -2 to hit. The great thing about guardian bombs is they do a lot of damage to anything you want so I'd try to find a way to go for something like a repulsor or dread if possible. Guardian bombs are mostly suicide units (but with the potential to be incredibly hard to remove via shooting) but damage wise they're amazing troops.

Having to drop a fully buffed 20 man guardian bomb (troops) which takes all of the resources (CP & character support) on a single unit of 10 intercessors (also troops) speaks volumes about the inferiority of the guardian no?

A blob of gaurdians sitting on a board is dead weigh and inefficientt... UNLESS they are deep striking and buffed to the sky.

I would say intercessors number 1 because of versatility - different chapters and loadout options.

In second place I would probably put tesla immortals(yes the rets of the army sucks...But immortals are great for a troops) or the humble Alitoic ranger.

They need support from an overlord and potentially a strat, but Tesla Immortals can kick out a disgusting amount of shots.

With an overlord buffing and the Methodical Destruction strat, they've got 20 str 5 shots that hit on 2s and 4+ generates 3 hits instead of 1. So you're looking at around 40 hits from those 20 shots. For 150 pt infantry unit, that's a foul amount of firepower.

Sadly it's good at shredding hordes, and you just don't see them much.

 Argive wrote:
Having to drop a fully buffed 20 man guardian bomb (troops) which takes all of the resources (CP & character support) on a single unit of 10 intercessors (also troops) speaks volumes about the inferiority of the guardian no?

A blob of gaurdians sitting on a board is dead weigh and inefficientt... UNLESS they are deep striking and buffed to the sky.

I would say intercessors number 1 because of versatility - different chapters and loadout options.

In second place I would probably put tesla immortals(yes the rets of the army sucks...But immortals are great for a troops) or the humble Alitoic ranger.

Well, the idea was for buffed units I believe? Guardians don't need buffing to be killy but doom and jinx alone probably put them over the top of just about any troops.
As for rangers, they're reasonably hard to remove, not for intercessors with chapter master support unfortunately. But in terms of shooting rangers are pretty poor unfortunately.

10 thousand sons 8 warp flamers,(or warp bolters) soul reaper and inferno bolt pistol on the champ, who also happens to be a pysker. Pop up with a strat in range and burn every thing. Oh yeah they also have a 2+sv against d1 weapons and a 5++ for anything else and ignor the penalty for moveing and shooting heavy weapons. One of there powers can even boost there invun by 1 or get them death hex to remove there targets invun (if it has one) and more.

Sure there not cheap but as a troop unit there durable aand can lay down some serious fire power.

A guardian blob is a fantastic pick for a single unit. Far from being "dead weight" once they come down and blow something up, they are extremely good at existing on the board on an objective and being very difficult for your opponent to remove - it's very possible to make them 2+ (for first four wounds)/3++/5++, with minuses to hit if you really want, which makes anything less than assault cent levels of shooting bounce off them, and makes them easily the most points efficient ob-sec shield in the game.

The trouble with guardians is that there's not a whole lot of use for more than a single squad, because they are so reliant on psychic support and the 4++ strat that you can only pop on a single unit per turn.

I'm here hrming.

Because it's 170 for 10 Intercessors, 510 for 30 of 'em.

510 will net you 170 Grots.

Maybe not the most raw firepower, but the *staying* power of 170 wounds is gonna be fairly solid. (it'd take 'em 6 rounds of shooting to get rid of the Intercessors. Not sure how many rounds of return fire would be needed to remove the grots.)

Chaos Cultists and Conscripts are also probably in the running.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

Wakshaani wrote:
I'm here hrming.

Because it's 170 for 10 Intercessors, 510 for 30 of 'em.

510 will net you 170 Grots.

Maybe not the most raw firepower, but the *staying* power of 170 wounds is gonna be fairly solid. (it'd take 'em 6 rounds of shooting to get rid of the Intercessors. Not sure how many rounds of return fire would be needed to remove the grots.)

Chaos Cultists and Conscripts are also probably in the running.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

30 Intercessors, unsupported, put out 60 shots.
40 hits.
33 and a third dead grots a turn, for 5 turns of shooting to kill the Grots.

Supported, it becomes...

60 shots
53.33 hits
51.85 dead grots a turn, for three-four rounds to kill them all.

SynodOfDordt wrote:
Yes, range is important here. Range is definitely a big part of what I would describe as the 'firepower' of the unit. More range means more shooting phases in which you are killing things, so we shouldn't be confined only to looking at things like S, AP, or number of shots.

The range part is why Dragon Scions are absolutely stupid. They get to shoot twice on a weapon they originally couldn't Deep Strike and do that with AND get that awesome 30" Plasma Gun (which is already the preferred weapon), ergo they have stupid flexibility when deploying. This means hitting a target with max firepower at most opportunities.

Wakshaani wrote:
I'm here hrming.

Because it's 170 for 10 Intercessors, 510 for 30 of 'em.

510 will net you 170 Grots.

Maybe not the most raw firepower, but the *staying* power of 170 wounds is gonna be fairly solid. (it'd take 'em 6 rounds of shooting to get rid of the Intercessors. Not sure how many rounds of return fire would be needed to remove the grots.)

Chaos Cultists and Conscripts are also probably in the running.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

170 grots is $306 US or 204 quid. For that much money you had best hope for some kind of benefit!

How do you fit your army in the depolyment zone?