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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 10:44:27
Subject: Charge meta
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Grey40k wrote:This is coming from someone who has been absent for too many editions to count and hence catching up.
Am I missing anything or is this edition the charge / alpha strike meta, when it comes to melee?
There used to be initiative, and some weapons were powerful but heavily penalized for it (e.g. power fist termies). Now, it seems that the IGYG nature is further emphasized, with fewer interruptions of that flow (overwatch in most armies doesn't seem to be a major factor).
When I see "competitive" lists with good melee (for imperium, so mostly marines) it is all about jump packs and stacking attacks on glass cannon units. It does seem to pay off! Sanguinary guard or death companies, with some buffs, seem to be doing eye watering damage.
Am I misreading it? Personally, I prefer grindier fights, with morale mattering more and so on.
Yeah the game has gone heavily into alpha strike. If after turn 3 there's still significant amount of units left for either army that army is basically winner. Most of the time armies are pretty much mutually vaporized and remnants are scoring end.
With game itself being slowed down slower than even 2nd edition GW had to figure out way to speed up the overall game. Answer: Abilty to cause damage goes up the roof so that after first turn or two there's far less to do as armies are wrecked!
Offence was greater than defence even in start with index and with codexes and upgrades offence keeps getting more buffs than defence. Basic armour save is fairly useless and if your point cost per wound is in 2 digits even at 3+´save you are soft. It's somewhat telling toughest unit orks have is actually the gretchin...T2 tougher than T4 in practice
Good armies blow up knight a turn with firepower to spare. Orks need to load up on anything they want to take by a lot because they die fast. 60 ork boyz dies up in a turn no problem. 10 mek guns can be lost in a turn without too weird dice rolling even on not that competive eldar army. And in 2k+ games necron resurection protocol is pretty much useless as you need survivors from unit to even roll it...
Only army I have tried that isn't removing models by bucketloads when enemy fires is sisters of battle and more specifically valorous heart. Single digit point per wound, 3+ that ignores up to -2 armour save modifier and 6+++ is actually something that doesn't get just wiped off easily when in cover. Haven't faced dark eldars yet though. Their disintegrator spam can vaporize those fast though.
Best defence to alpha strike is outdo them in alpha strike.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 10:44:45
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 11:17:21
Subject: Charge meta
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Barpharanges
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Whenever I see people arguing the 'merits' of charging it's always something along the lines of the following,
> Ah well you're just playing in "Ultra-Competitive environments"
As if this is a meaningful of worthwhile comment. What is good does not change depending on where it is being played - most 'meta' units are simply inherently good - they aren't good by virtue of being played against other, meta-specific units. A tournament winning list is going to trump a majority of its opponents regardless.
> Melee requires more skill/tactics/finesse/complexity
Brevity is the soul of wit. You can speak of 'complexity', 'tactics' and 'strategy' but ultimately why ever pursue a more complex option when the same payoff can be achieved by a more simpler option. The simplest option is usually the best one, and in 40k this really is the case.
> Hyperbole! Daemons, Orks, Custodes
Competitive Daemon Lists are soup and I don't think they're doing that great anymore. Orks are quite literally a shooting army. Custodes are in the gutter.
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The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 11:51:38
Subject: Charge meta
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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In 8th edition, the value of a melee unit is solely decided by it's ability to get into combat, not by it's ability to actually fight in combat.
Ehh, somewhat disagree, considering the Possessed shenanigans bomb that runs around CSM list, but overall yes, Damage output is not as important unless of course it's a suicide kamikaze BA smasher or other similar units, which however all also have no issue reaching combat so yes.
Good combat units are determined by 75% of the threat range they have and 25% of killyness.
That is also why AL Zerkers are a LOT better then WE zerkers, because AL Zerkers will hit you whilest WE zerkers will not make it over the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
> Hyperbole! Daemons, Orks, Custodes
Competitive Daemon Lists are soup and I don't think they're doing that great anymore. Orks are quite literally a shooting army. Custodes are in the gutter.
Literally all tournament Chaos lists are soup though, but that's supposedly fine.....
As for orkz. Whilest in me olden days i used to run what is in essence a mekband or dakka army, which at the time didn't work and would work better nowadasy, it's still not the core faction identity. And Ork melee beeing so bad or the fact that boys aren't even the real troop backbone anymore (because why use 7ppm models when you can field grots which also double as protection) then overall the Identity is in shamles in a way.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/17 11:54:58
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 13:27:03
Subject: Charge meta
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Fixture of Dakka
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Didn't the BA smash captins work only, because castellans were the dominant force at the time, and were eliminating the eldar as a threat, often by being in the same list as the BA captins?
We had a few melee units work in 8th. the monster mash worked for a split second. Double dipping on stratagems inari shining spears fighting multiple times and charging stuff from another side of the board etc.
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If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 13:36:55
Subject: Charge meta
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Karol wrote:Didn't the BA smash captins work only, because castellans were the dominant force at the time, and were eliminating the eldar as a threat, often by being in the same list as the BA captins?
We had a few melee units work in 8th. the monster mash worked for a split second. Double dipping on stratagems inari shining spears fighting multiple times and charging stuff from another side of the board etc.
Kinda. Smash Captains are hyper-efficient against Knights, yes, but it's a rare army that doesn't include at least 1 or 2 good targets for a Smash Captain. They'll tear apart Shining Spears quite handily, for example, and Primaris too. It's definitely true though that a Smash Captain can be made into a bad investment if the enemy army has no good targets for him - he's not cheap but is extremely good at bullying units much more expensive than him.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 13:36:57
Subject: Charge meta
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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blood reaper wrote:Whenever I see people arguing the 'merits' of charging it's always something along the lines of the following,
> Ah well you're just playing in "Ultra-Competitive environments"
As if this is a meaningful of worthwhile comment. What is good does not change depending on where it is being played - most 'meta' units are simply inherently good - they aren't good by virtue of being played against other, meta-specific units. A tournament winning list is going to trump a majority of its opponents regardless.
> Melee requires more skill/tactics/finesse/complexity
Brevity is the soul of wit. You can speak of 'complexity', 'tactics' and 'strategy' but ultimately why ever pursue a more complex option when the same payoff can be achieved by a more simpler option. The simplest option is usually the best one, and in 40k this really is the case.
> Hyperbole! Daemons, Orks, Custodes
Competitive Daemon Lists are soup and I don't think they're doing that great anymore. Orks are quite literally a shooting army. Custodes are in the gutter.
Well, from the OP I wasn't aware that the thread deals with tournament play only, consequently I mentioned factions that rely on CC. Also, since the OP is a returning player I just found it fair to draw a larger picture than the very narrow view many people on dakka like to use, where units (and as shown in this thread even whole factions) are seen as either "broken op" or "unplayable trash", while in reality lists and armies are usually dependant on what people have available, like the look of or what follows the headcanon of their army - outside of tournaments that is of course.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 13:40:13
Subject: Charge meta
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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer
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If withdrawing from close combat took place after the shooting phase, that would help melee units a lot - as would melee Overwatch against withdrawing troops.
Cover is also an issue. DS is the way to go for now because advancing infantry can’t protect themselves from being shot when on the move. Even something like a -1 to hit troops that advanced would be of some benefit. That and having more “assault” transports that can disgorge their contents after moving.
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It never ends well |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 13:46:04
Subject: Charge meta
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Fixture of Dakka
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I never played in tournaments and I both expirianced and seen melee not work. I seen it not work for players that played longer then I live twice over, and I seen it not work in games between totaly new players.
Any game that is balanced or fun, if your opponents lets it be balanced or fun, is going to run in to huge problems. And in fact at the tournament level those problems are going to be less prelevant there. Because if army X is bad, then no one worries about it, as the number of X players is going to be borderline low . On the other hand a non tournament new Inari player, that tries to use his army the way the rules tell him to use them aka get close and melee or shot up stuff, is going to have an extremly bad time over the course of multiple games. And lets hope he was using proxies, and not spent 800-900$ on models, only to find out that he is playing a crippled version of an eldar and dark eldar soup book, and that he in fact has to stock up on different models and invest another 500-600$ to get a real army.
Because if that happens, some people decide to not spend the extra money, and just leave the game.
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If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 14:15:14
Subject: Charge meta
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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Not Online!!! wrote:In 8th edition, the value of a melee unit is solely decided by it's ability to get into combat, not by it's ability to actually fight in combat.
Ehh, somewhat disagree, considering the Possessed shenanigans bomb that runs around CSM list, but overall yes, Damage output is not as important
Possessed have the ability to get into combat through layered defensive debuffs and high speed from warptime and alpha legion stratagems. The could stack insane amount of damage before, it just didn't matter because they couldn't get into combat.
As for orkz. Whilest in me olden days i used to run what is in essence a mekband or dakka army, which at the time didn't work and would work better nowadasy, it's still not the core faction identity.
Ork shooting units have always outnumbered melee units, and shooting has always been a core part of their identity. I can't talk for the times before 4th editions' codex, but ever since no successful ork list has ever gone without shooting - not even the green tides.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 15:39:35
Subject: Charge meta
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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Karol wrote:I never played in tournaments and I both expirianced and seen melee not work. I seen it not work for players that played longer then I live twice over, and I seen it not work in games between totaly new players.
Any game that is balanced or fun, if your opponents lets it be balanced or fun, is going to run in to huge problems. And in fact at the tournament level those problems are going to be less prelevant there. Because if army X is bad, then no one worries about it, as the number of X players is going to be borderline low . On the other hand a non tournament new Inari player, that tries to use his army the way the rules tell him to use them aka get close and melee or shot up stuff, is going to have an extremly bad time over the course of multiple games. And lets hope he was using proxies, and not spent 800-900$ on models, only to find out that he is playing a crippled version of an eldar and dark eldar soup book, and that he in fact has to stock up on different models and invest another 500-600$ to get a real army.
Because if that happens, some people decide to not spend the extra money, and just leave the game.
Well, from the descriptions you gave about your playgroup it seems to be very focused on the tournament or let's say hardcore competitive aspect of the game as well.
I've seen melee to be an important part of nearly every game in 8th edition and with my Nurgle daemons I don't really have a choice. But even with my Death Guard it's always good to have melee elements as well to distract from your shooty units. Against armies like Tau which I can't outshoot I have to rely on CC to get them. If there wasn't a melee thread he could simply pick and shoot whatever he wants.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 16:06:44
Subject: Charge meta
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Disagree on this "meta doesn't matter".
You can play assault army versus assault army and have fun. Or less optimised shooting lists. Its still a bit skewed - because charge dice are everything - but it can still be fun in itself.
If you play good players using lists that consistently place in GTs then yes, turning up with bad units isn't going to be fun. But if its just some people down the local store, odds are learning to play will improve things.
I'm sort of mystified how you'd spend $800 on Eldar and get units which were totally non-viable to the point where you needed to spend a further $600 to sort it out. Wych Cult meets... mass banshees/scorpions or something?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 16:54:51
Subject: Charge meta
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:The Newman wrote:Slipspace wrote:If you prefer longer, drawn-out fights and morale mattering then I'm sorry to say 40k really isn't the game for you. It's extremely rare for units to last more than one turn once they are targeted. In fact, if a unit can't destroy its intended target in one turn it's often derided as not being worth much. Exceptions exist for tactics like wrapping and trapping units in melee, but that's usually in order to utterly obliterate them next turn.
40k is far too lethal at the moment and that means if you want to compete you need to try to be ahead in the lethality race.
And on top of that 40k is weighed pretty heavily in favor of shooting over melee. A melee unit isn't worth a [censored] if you can't reliably cover 26+ inches and deny overwatch fire*, but a shooting unit is vastly easier to get into range and the good melee units generally aren't better than the good shooting units by enough to make up for being so much harder to deliver.
* Overwatch doesn't always matter but when you hit Tau, Iron Hands, or anything with a lot of auto-hit weapons it's ruinous to suffer the overwatch.
This isn't true. I feel that this edition has made melee really powerful, probably more generally powerful than it should be.
You don't even have to be good at melee to want to charge in, because initiative is gone, chargers fight first, and if you have any survivors [which isn't exactly a stretch], the enemy unit can't charge or shoot next turn and is effectively locked out.
IMO, CQC should be something specialists do and are good at, and to some degree this is true, but really, regular units are also adequately good at it since it just requires having bodies and making your charge to be considered "Adequate".
It's 100% true. Fall back alone has made assault a serious gamble. And that's after you survive delivery, because getting close in 8th is basically suicide. Automatically Appended Next Post: Karol wrote:Didn't the BA smash captins work only, because castellans were the dominant force at the time, and were eliminating the eldar as a threat, often by being in the same list as the BA captins?
We had a few melee units work in 8th. the monster mash worked for a split second. Double dipping on stratagems inari shining spears fighting multiple times and charging stuff from another side of the board etc.
Smash capt is still useful, but its harder to drive him now for sure.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 16:56:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 18:49:35
Subject: Charge meta
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Martel732 wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:The Newman wrote:Slipspace wrote:If you prefer longer, drawn-out fights and morale mattering then I'm sorry to say 40k really isn't the game for you. It's extremely rare for units to last more than one turn once they are targeted. In fact, if a unit can't destroy its intended target in one turn it's often derided as not being worth much. Exceptions exist for tactics like wrapping and trapping units in melee, but that's usually in order to utterly obliterate them next turn.
40k is far too lethal at the moment and that means if you want to compete you need to try to be ahead in the lethality race.
And on top of that 40k is weighed pretty heavily in favor of shooting over melee. A melee unit isn't worth a [censored] if you can't reliably cover 26+ inches and deny overwatch fire*, but a shooting unit is vastly easier to get into range and the good melee units generally aren't better than the good shooting units by enough to make up for being so much harder to deliver.
* Overwatch doesn't always matter but when you hit Tau, Iron Hands, or anything with a lot of auto-hit weapons it's ruinous to suffer the overwatch.
This isn't true. I feel that this edition has made melee really powerful, probably more generally powerful than it should be.
You don't even have to be good at melee to want to charge in, because initiative is gone, chargers fight first, and if you have any survivors [which isn't exactly a stretch], the enemy unit can't charge or shoot next turn and is effectively locked out.
IMO, CQC should be something specialists do and are good at, and to some degree this is true, but really, regular units are also adequately good at it since it just requires having bodies and making your charge to be considered "Adequate".
It's 100% true. Fall back alone has made assault a serious gamble. And that's after you survive delivery, because getting close in 8th is basically suicide.
Seriously? No.
I be like "Hey guardsmen, charge that dreadnought!" or " BSS, charge those Orks!" all the time, because it works. I would never have done this before, because these units ostensibly suck in melee, but since I get to swing first I get to get damage in, and because even if they fall back, they can't shoot or charge. I rarely care if they fall back, my unit that I charged with was usually devastated in the first place and at the very least fairly inexpensive.
And falling back is easy to prevent for non-FLY units. Three Guardsmen can effectively take out a Leviathan for at least a turn, and a 40 point squad of riflemen can keep it out of the game from basically turn 2 onwards if they charge from out of LoS.
Then, beyond it's efficiency, there's it's necessity. Control of the center of the board is decisive, or at least I perceive it as vital to victory in both ITC and Eternal War. It take CQC units to control the board center and maintain position pressure on the enemy, to take and hold the ground.
I would like to see a general shift away from melee being almost universally good. It should be something only undertaken by specialists, not line infantry, and should be a useful asset but not an entire army strategy. That's my belief, and my issue with melee is that it doesn't really matter how good you are at it, just that you can get there.
I'm increasingly a fan of returning initiative, though assigning it on a unit-by-unit basis and not on a faction basis, and removing the can't shoot after falling back penalty [at least for heavy equipment], so that melee returns to the realm of designated units being good at it and everybody else wants to avoid it, and to reduce the strength of it's ability to control the board somewhat which is ridiculously way too strong.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/17 18:57:12
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 18:52:29
Subject: Charge meta
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Jidmah wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:In 8th edition, the value of a melee unit is solely decided by it's ability to get into combat, not by it's ability to actually fight in combat.
Ehh, somewhat disagree, considering the Possessed shenanigans bomb that runs around CSM list, but overall yes, Damage output is not as important
Possessed have the ability to get into combat through layered defensive debuffs and high speed from warptime and alpha legion stratagems. The could stack insane amount of damage before, it just didn't matter because they couldn't get into combat.
Exactly. Same for warp talons. Before Faith and Fury they were gak. Now they can reliably make the charge out of deep strike using "raptor strike" and can prevent fallback with "we have come for you". Now they're in every list I build, before they stayed home. Melee is all about getting there and not getting shot to pieces the next turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 19:03:21
Subject: Charge meta
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Screaming Shining Spear
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I think it mostly comes down to having balanced lists.
If your whole army is just designed to footslog across the tabletop before engaging in melee you're going to have a tough time.
If your whole army is designed to sit in a static ball and shoot and you get charged from deepstrike or the opponent can withstand your firepower, make contact and starts to chew through your gunline you will have a bad time.
That's part of the reason Marines started doing so well, good shooting backed by at least competent melee or decent shooting with movement shenanigans and powerful melee.
Look at Sean Nayden's list at LVO, he came third with a list that consisted of three squads of rangers, a lot of shooting/melee jetbikes and characters! Admittedly, he's probably the only person that could make that list work but he came in third against some of the most insane shooting armies 8th has seen.
Most good, well designed gunlines will have at least enough melee to be able to counter opposing melee threats, apart from Tau of course.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 19:44:22
Subject: Charge meta
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Martel732 wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:The Newman wrote:Slipspace wrote:If you prefer longer, drawn-out fights and morale mattering then I'm sorry to say 40k really isn't the game for you. It's extremely rare for units to last more than one turn once they are targeted. In fact, if a unit can't destroy its intended target in one turn it's often derided as not being worth much. Exceptions exist for tactics like wrapping and trapping units in melee, but that's usually in order to utterly obliterate them next turn.
40k is far too lethal at the moment and that means if you want to compete you need to try to be ahead in the lethality race.
And on top of that 40k is weighed pretty heavily in favor of shooting over melee. A melee unit isn't worth a [censored] if you can't reliably cover 26+ inches and deny overwatch fire*, but a shooting unit is vastly easier to get into range and the good melee units generally aren't better than the good shooting units by enough to make up for being so much harder to deliver.
* Overwatch doesn't always matter but when you hit Tau, Iron Hands, or anything with a lot of auto-hit weapons it's ruinous to suffer the overwatch.
This isn't true. I feel that this edition has made melee really powerful, probably more generally powerful than it should be.
You don't even have to be good at melee to want to charge in, because initiative is gone, chargers fight first, and if you have any survivors [which isn't exactly a stretch], the enemy unit can't charge or shoot next turn and is effectively locked out.
IMO, CQC should be something specialists do and are good at, and to some degree this is true, but really, regular units are also adequately good at it since it just requires having bodies and making your charge to be considered "Adequate".
It's 100% true. Fall back alone has made assault a serious gamble. And that's after you survive delivery, because getting close in 8th is basically suicide.
Seriously? No.
I be like "Hey guardsmen, charge that dreadnought!" or " BSS, charge those Orks!" all the time, because it works. I would never have done this before, because these units ostensibly suck in melee, but since I get to swing first I get to get damage in, and because even if they fall back, they can't shoot or charge. I rarely care if they fall back, my unit that I charged with was usually devastated in the first place and at the very least fairly inexpensive.
And falling back is easy to prevent for non-FLY units. Three Guardsmen can effectively take out a Leviathan for at least a turn, and a 40 point squad of riflemen can keep it out of the game from basically turn 2 onwards if they charge from out of LoS.
Then, beyond it's efficiency, there's it's necessity. Control of the center of the board is decisive, or at least I perceive it as vital to victory in both ITC and Eternal War. It take CQC units to control the board center and maintain position pressure on the enemy, to take and hold the ground.
I would like to see a general shift away from melee being almost universally good. It should be something only undertaken by specialists, not line infantry, and should be a useful asset but not an entire army strategy. That's my belief, and my issue with melee is that it doesn't really matter how good you are at it, just that you can get there.
I'm increasingly a fan of returning initiative, though assigning it on a unit-by-unit basis and not on a faction basis, and removing the can't shoot after falling back penalty [at least for heavy equipment], so that melee returns to the realm of designated units being good at it and everybody else wants to avoid it, and to reduce the strength of it's ability to control the board somewhat which is ridiculously way too strong.
You are seriously insane if you think any of that works in practice. You will never get your guardsmen anywhere near a leviathan normally. CQC units go to the center of the board and then die. Full stop.
I am assaulting constantly. No one cares if their front rank, ie the only thing can be assaulted, doesn't shoot. It's literally tripoint or die. That's the game. And it's stupid and awful.
Assault is awful in 8th, with a bandaid of tripointing. If you are finding that assault works for you easily and often, you need better competition.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/17 19:46:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 19:59:06
Subject: Charge meta
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Martel732 wrote:
You are seriously insane if you think any of that works in practice. You will never get your guardsmen anywhere near a leviathan normally. CQC units go to the center of the board and then die. Full stop.
I am assaulting constantly. No one cares if their front rank, ie the only thing can be assaulted, doesn't shoot. It's literally tripoint or die. That's the game. And it's stupid and awful.
Assault is awful in 8th, with a bandaid of tripointing. If you are finding that assault works for you easily and often, you need better competition.
I have successfully charged and thus neutralized Leviathan Dreadnoughts with troop infantry a couple of times. That's among the ways that I was able to handle the copycat IH gun-castles that were popping up for a while.
Assault has been working for me all edition, and so far, it continues to do so. I don't charge their front rank, I either fly over it or gun it down to open a path to attempt my charges. I use units that are cheap or I know can make it. Guardsmen and Sisters are good chargers because they're already going that way and are going to find themselves in charge range. So are Grey Hunters, particularly with free chainswords, Shock Assault, and the ability to outflank and embed a melee specialist in their squad to ensure they find success. I've had recent success with my Grey Knights.
And I've seen failure to utilize close combat lose many games for people I spectate. Often, it's just because they can't get out of the deploy or are forced into their deploy as they refuse melee engagements and only fall back to try to get away, and with the loss of board center they also lose the game. I've seen several games too many where early CQC pressure is the ultimate decider, especially on Eternal War, where infiltrating or vanguarding units make their charges and box in the enemy, and if you don't rise to the occasion and counter-charge, you'll spend more than half the game boxed in an have no chance for victory.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/17 20:00:35
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 20:03:34
Subject: Re:Charge meta
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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The key is not not let melee box you in. Just proceed as normal, with the expectation that you will be charged. You can space out screens to minimize flying assault elements. I do it in mirror matches all the time.
The true power of IG is not gunline, but rather, move move move to keep assault elements far away from the other units. It's almost impossible for me to do anything vs guardsmen if I go second.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 20:04:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 20:11:56
Subject: Charge meta
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Jidmah wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:In 8th edition, the value of a melee unit is solely decided by it's ability to get into combat, not by it's ability to actually fight in combat.
Ehh, somewhat disagree, considering the Possessed shenanigans bomb that runs around CSM list, but overall yes, Damage output is not as important
Possessed have the ability to get into combat through layered defensive debuffs and high speed from warptime and alpha legion stratagems. The could stack insane amount of damage before, it just didn't matter because they couldn't get into combat.
As for orkz. Whilest in me olden days i used to run what is in essence a mekband or dakka army, which at the time didn't work and would work better nowadasy, it's still not the core faction identity.
Ork shooting units have always outnumbered melee units, and shooting has always been a core part of their identity. I can't talk for the times before 4th editions' codex, but ever since no successful ork list has ever gone without shooting - not even the green tides.
Ohh not disgreeing with that, but melee and the Act of gud krumpin certainly lost value, but at this point i am probably skarboy too old for orkz
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:The key is not not let melee box you in. Just proceed as normal, with the expectation that you will be charged. You can space out screens to minimize flying assault elements. I do it in mirror matches all the time.
The true power of IG is not gunline, but rather, move move move to keep assault elements far away from the other units. It's almost impossible for me to do anything vs guardsmen if I go second.
You have access to the best screen Deleter troop choices in the game.
That also is durable.
And are telling me that you have issues with screens.
Meanwhile my basic csm war guardsmen screens for breakfast.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/17 20:39:56
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 20:18:56
Subject: Re:Charge meta
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Sure, the screens eventually die. After the game is lost. That's their job. At 4 ppm, even primaris aren't truly efficient at removing guardsmen. I've resorted to autobolters and its still very very hard.
There's also the issue that winning BA lists have zero shooting atm. Stephen Box skips every shooting phase every game.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/17 20:21:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 20:47:56
Subject: Charge meta
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Martel732 wrote:You are seriously insane if you think any of that works in practice. You will never get your guardsmen anywhere near a leviathan normally. CQC units go to the center of the board and then die. Full stop.
That's your reliance on pure infantry lists. Space marines don't hold the center with cc troops, they use cc dreadnoughts. Get a fething contemptor already.
And agreed with NotOnline!!. Csm have no trouble clearing screens. Though mine usually take plasma or chaincannons for extra oomph.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 20:50:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 20:58:06
Subject: Charge meta
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If getting there is everything, why does everyone hate Banshees? Not only can you not fire overwatch at Banshees, Though it is unlikely, they can theoretically hit you from 29" away BEFORE using strats, or craft world traits.
In fact, if you are within 24" of a banshee, the absolute minimum distance they'll move against you is 14, meaning they've got you if they score 10 or higher on 3d6.
You can only take 30 of them in an army- 60 if you include an additional 3 max units in a Ynarri detachment.
But what about DE Reavers? Do all DE lists contain 36 Red Grief Jetbikes? Because by your logic they should- their threat range for CC is 28" - 40" in game where the entire battlefield is typically 48" wide.
You can hit'em with OW, but they could also be packing 12 chances at mortal wounds on 4+ either when their charges hit or when you fall back.
BTW, I love both of these units, and once I can invest in models again, my builds will include these units, though not to that extreme. But my experience is that most people on this forum think Banshees are awful, and while I haven't heard people saying reavers are awful, I also haven't heard people raving about them.
If getting there really was everything, I think these units would get a lot more love than they do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 21:03:00
Subject: Charge meta
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Good combat units are determined by 75% of the threat range they have and 25% of killyness.
The issues with banshees are that they Fall flat in the last Part , aka s3 is not particulary dangerous.
Also unlike warptalons which don't need to kill , they can't prevent falback which basically is just killing in a timer if you can do that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote:Martel732 wrote:You are seriously insane if you think any of that works in practice. You will never get your guardsmen anywhere near a leviathan normally. CQC units go to the center of the board and then die. Full stop.
That's your reliance on pure infantry lists. Space marines don't hold the center with cc troops, they use cc dreadnoughts. Get a fething contemptor already.
And agreed with NotOnline!!. Csm have no trouble clearing screens. Though mine usually take plasma or chaincannons for extra oomph.
I often Find the reaper Overkill tbh.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/17 21:11:18
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 21:09:36
Subject: Charge meta
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Annandale, VA
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Both of the examples you gave are predominantly shooting units, which can opportunistically benefit from melee. Your battle plan does not revolve around getting them into close combat. The fact that footslogging Guardsmen are easily slaughtered as they run up the board isn't a problem, because they're still shooting at full effectiveness all the while. If you get the opportunity to charge something after having already shot, and it doesn't have anything really scary in terms of Overwatch or melee, you might as well. You get some extra hits and they have to take a penalty when they fall back. But it's not your primary way of killing things.
Units that have to be in melee to be useful, and have to make back their points through melee, are much less effective and without a reliable delivery system aren't worth taking. I agree with you that CQC should be the realm of specialists, but talking about it as this edition making melee powerful is rather missing the point. 40K is currently weighted heavily in favor of shooting over melee, in that melee specialists lose out to ranged specialists for ease of use, flexibility, and raw effectiveness. And the problems that melee specialists face don't all come down to ranged specialists being decent in melee too; they come down to ranged firepower being just as lethal but applied far sooner and with far fewer caveats on its use.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 21:13:31
Subject: Charge meta
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Not Online!!! wrote:Good combat units are determined by 75% of the threat range they have and 25% of killyness.
The issues with banshees are that they Fall flat in the last Part , aka s3 is not particulary dangerous.
Also unlike warptalons which don't need to kill , they can't prevent falback which basically is just killing in a timer if you can do that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote:Martel732 wrote:You are seriously insane if you think any of that works in practice. You will never get your guardsmen anywhere near a leviathan normally. CQC units go to the center of the board and then die. Full stop.
That's your reliance on pure infantry lists. Space marines don't hold the center with cc troops, they use cc dreadnoughts. Get a fething contemptor already.
And agreed with NotOnline!!. Csm have no trouble clearing screens. Though mine usually take plasma or chaincannons for extra oomph.
I often Find the reaper Overkill tbh.
To quote one of my favorite fethed up 80s cartoons "There is no overkill. There is only kill, or don't kill ".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 21:16:40
Subject: Charge meta
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Gadzilla666 wrote:Martel732 wrote:You are seriously insane if you think any of that works in practice. You will never get your guardsmen anywhere near a leviathan normally. CQC units go to the center of the board and then die. Full stop.
That's your reliance on pure infantry lists. Space marines don't hold the center with cc troops, they use cc dreadnoughts. Get a fething contemptor already.
And agreed with NotOnline!!. Csm have no trouble clearing screens. Though mine usually take plasma or chaincannons for extra oomph.
Top BA lists don't.
Also, pure infantry is almost mandatory with a menagerie of expensive vehicles with no invuln.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 21:30:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 21:32:37
Subject: Charge meta
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Martel732 wrote: Gadzilla666 wrote:Martel732 wrote:You are seriously insane if you think any of that works in practice. You will never get your guardsmen anywhere near a leviathan normally. CQC units go to the center of the board and then die. Full stop.
That's your reliance on pure infantry lists. Space marines don't hold the center with cc troops, they use cc dreadnoughts. Get a fething contemptor already.
And agreed with NotOnline!!. Csm have no trouble clearing screens. Though mine usually take plasma or chaincannons for extra oomph.
Top BA lists don't.
Which? The dreadnoughts or clearing screens? And who cares what other people do. It's apparently not working for you, at least according to you, but I suspect you do better than you say here. If what you're doing isn't working try something new.
Ach! Stop editing your posts after I respond. That's why I said get a Contemptor, they have invuls, and since you play loyalists fnp if you take the relic version.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 21:36:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 21:37:40
Subject: Charge meta
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Not Online!!! wrote:Good combat units are determined by 75% of the threat range they have and 25% of killyness.
The issues with banshees are that they Fall flat in the last Part , aka s3 is not particulary dangerous.
Also unlike warptalons which don't need to kill , they can't prevent falback which basically is just killing in a timer if you can do that
You are correct. That's my point- getting there isn't everything. Meaning that once you get there, your ability to make it worthwhile is still very important to the equation.
Banshees are EXCELLENT at getting there, but not so great at doing stuff once they do, which is why they aren't as effective as they could be.
They are proof that getting there isn't everything. I do personally like them, but I wasn't arguing that they were awesome. Quite the opposite actually.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 21:38:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 21:41:08
Subject: Re:Charge meta
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I did much better after PA for sure. It's just absurd to claim that assault is good in a general sense. Range 0 is a serious problem in 8th. For my area, I can't make due without shooting elements.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 21:43:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/17 23:05:03
Subject: Re:Charge meta
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Annandale, VA
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Just for some historical reference: Back in 3rd/4th Ed, if you moved, your Rapid Fire weapons got one shot at 12". If you shot at all, whether you moved or not, you couldn't charge. Heavy weapons couldn't shoot at all on the move.
So, most ranged infantry had three options: Shoot at full effectiveness, move and shoot at reduced effectiveness, or move and charge.
Then you had the multirole specialists, like Eldar and Tyranids. With the Assault type, they could move, shoot at full effectiveness, and charge all in the same turn. They paid for this by generally having short range, so they were poor in a straight gunfight.
If you were an Assault Marine, a bolt pistol was just as effective as a bolter most of the time, except that you could shoot your pistols and still charge. If you didn't have a melee weapon at all, well, that wasn't too big a loss if you had some decent melee ability.
Or consider the converse: Do you want a unit that can move forward to aggressively contest objectives? If so, you probably don't want them to have Rapid Fire or Heavy weapons. Instead of paying for guns you'll rarely use, better to pay for melee ability once you get there.
Then things changed.
They made it so that you could shoot Rapid Fire twice even if you moved. Then they made it so that you could shoot Heavy even if you moved (at reduced effectiveness). Then we get to 8th, where Rapid Fire isn't affected at all by movement, and Heavy just gets a -1.
Now everything is firing at either full effectiveness, or close to it, all the time, so a unit intended to be used in melee has no reason not to also be packing an assault rifle to use on the way in. Melee specialists with pistols or no ranged weapons at all are shortchanged by this, because now the only mobility difference from their rifle-armed peers is the ability to Advance D6". And the insult to injury is that if you do Advance, you can't charge.
Throw in the fact that rerolls mitigate even what few penalties exist (BS3+ firing Heavy on the move with a reroll is still a 75% success rate) and yeah, it's no wonder that shooting utterly dominates the game. There's no longer a distinction between static shooting and mobile shooting; everything can shoot from turn 1 while closing on objectives, and then everything can shoot-and-charge the hapless melee specialists if they manage to get close enough.
So, here's my hot take: I contend that there is nothing you can do to the melee rules that will make footslogging melee units viable without otherwise breaking the game. You have to reduce the lethality of shooting to give melee units a chance to get up the board, and restrict units from being able to move, shoot at max range, and charge all in the same turn to give assault-oriented units a real reason to exist. The various solutions that make melee more lethal (eg free hits when enemies try to fall back) are just compounding the game's general lethality problem.
And now for comparison, Apocalypse. You have three orders you can give to a formation.
-Advance: Each unit can either move and either shoot or melee.
-Aimed Fire: Each unit can shoot at +1 to hit or melee at -1 to hit.
-Assault: Each unit can move double and then melee.
Very straightforward. If you want to maximize firepower, you can't move at all (whether you're carrying lascannons or bolters). If you forgo shooting, you get to move not just an extra D6", but double. Now fast melee units can really zip across the board, and even footslogging infantry can cross the (larger than 40K's standard) table in a reasonable amount of time. Advancing and assault are elegantly combined into a single mechanic.
Add in the lack of Overwatch, the simultaneity of actions, and the mechanic where you don't know how much damage you've really done until all actions are completed, and I find melee-oriented units (or formations) to be a lot more useful in Apocalypse than they are in mainstream 40K. Doubly so when you manage to charge a unit that has chosen Aimed Fire before they get a chance to shoot, and since Aimed Fire precludes movement, they are stuck fighting in melee while hitting on -1. Deep Strikers are still useful, but the ability to react to them on the fly makes them less the must-have hammer blow that they currently are.
Basically I think a hypothetical 9th could benefit a lot by taking a page out of Apocalypse. The orders system forces you to decide what you want your units to be doing for the turn far more meaningfully than 'no shooting if you Advanced' or 'hit on -1 if you move', and gives assault units their niche back.
Anyways, I'll get off my soapbox now. Realistically, GW will either continue dropping points on melee units until they're viable through sheer weight of bodies, or give us a monkey's paw solution like porting over the to-hit penalties from Kill Team without examining how they disproportionately affect different armies.
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