Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2020/04/20 19:08:30
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
So on warhammer community you can find a short story for war of the spider that centers around a group of talons of the emperor (custodes and sisters of silence) who are to deliver a group of primaris marines to a chapter as reinforcements and it doesn't go so well....
Spoiler:
so they find out that the chapter to whom they are to deliver the recruits apparently turned traitor and what does the shield captain in charge immediatly do? He accuses and threatens the primaris recruits, who never even had contact to the chapter that had just turned traitor, but apparently they share a geneseed and that makes them traitors too by default.
And when a primaris points this out to the shield captain, what does the golden bananaboy do? He proceeds to shoot him in the face....the custodes kill all the primaris and thats it basically.
So a couple of things here: the custodes are one of the few, if not the only people in the imperium who are educated enough that they can think somewhat critically and not have the intellectual bandwith of a puritan inquisitor. They are warriors, but also philosophers and scholars as evidenced by chris wraights amazing work in watchers of the throne. Now, every custodian is unique, so there can be some fucksticks among them who have colossal sticks up their asses, but the entire situation and the descisionmaking in that shortstory is so moronic, that it goes way beyond just one shield captain being a douchebag. It just makes no sense. Granted the primaris marines accused of being traitors also didn't handle the situation well.
I love the custodes, but apparently they can be gigantic fucksticks for no fething reason.
Also a minor thing in that shortstory, but it bothered me immensely: the shield captain accusing the primaris marines calls them "heretics" and not "traitors", implying that they turned away from the emperor in a religious sense or rejected the dogma of the ecclesiarchy, which a custodian would not give a single feth about. They are the only ones left who know and share the emperors original idea of a secular imperium, even though they know it is no longer achievable.
I know it would probably be impractical for GW, but I think they should have one author handle one faction, codex lore, novels and shortstories, simply for consistency. It is the one thing that I hate most about 40k lore in general. There are so many amazing factions and stories to be told, but there are so many authors writing about the same faction, that you get some atrocious inconsitencies. And I am not talking about charakters within a faction that may have wildly different personalities, but inconsistencies across entire factions and how they are written.
40k is a fantasy setting and therefore they can do basically anything they want with it from a storytelling perspective, but you HAVE to adhere to the rules you set for yourself within your story for anything to matter. Without that consistency there a no stakes (but this is a thing that plagues modern movies aswell, so it might be a trend).
Now in this shortstory in particular I'd have no gripe with the shield captain in charge killing the marines after an argument or after the marines refuse to be detained, maybe he is just a particularly hotheaded shieldcaptain who is especially weary of the astartes, which most custodes still are. But I have a problem with how they chose to portray it in the shortstory. It is not within the realm of a character being particularly aggressive and unreasonable, it goes against how his entire faction is written as a whole.
2020/04/20 19:52:50
Subject: Re:Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
Quick copy & paste from Twitter (Andy Clark wrote Consequences):
David Wilson @AoZain
Hey @AClark2018, loved "Consequences" on the warcom site. Question: I thought Greyshields would have no direct relation to the new chapter, other then their primarch's geneseed? Why wouldn't they be used to hunt the Drakes and then form a new chapter?
Andy Clark is staying home @AClark2018
Replying to @AoZain
1) Hi very glad that you enjoyed it! To answer your question, I think in this instance it’s a case of ‘the Imperium doesn’t always take the most logical course of action’ where intolerance and mistrust are involved. Also, if you caught Duncan’s recent...
2) ...short ‘Burden of Brotherhood’ on warcom you’ll see there’s a bit more awry than perhaps first meets the eye. Besides which, there’s some major historical mistrust lingering between the Custodes and the Adeptus Astartes, and it’s likely that coloured Tyvar’s judgement. 3) hope that’s helpful
(Emphasis mine)
2020/04/20 20:12:24
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
SirGunslinger wrote: I think this is fairly in keeping with the Imperium's whole philosophy of 'better safe and short a few resources than run any danger of being sorry'
It is!
But custodes aren’t representative of the imperium as a whole, they’re the last echo of the emperor’s real vision for the galaxy.
2020/04/20 20:49:59
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
SirGunslinger wrote: I think this is fairly in keeping with the Imperium's whole philosophy of 'better safe and short a few resources than run any danger of being sorry'
It is!
But custodes aren’t representative of the imperium as a whole, they’re the last echo of the emperor’s real vision for the galaxy.
Thank you! My point exactly!
They are the one faction that should know a bit better than immediately taking measures like a puritan inquisitor
2020/04/20 21:19:01
Subject: Re:Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
By killing Off the ones which are verifyably not traitors?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/04/20 23:57:39
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
SirGunslinger wrote: I think this is fairly in keeping with the Imperium's whole philosophy of 'better safe and short a few resources than run any danger of being sorry'
It is!
But custodes aren’t representative of the imperium as a whole, they’re the last echo of the emperor’s real vision for the galaxy.
Thank you! My point exactly!
They are the one faction that should know a bit better than immediately taking measures like a puritan inquisitor
Except when it comes to Astartes.
At best they believe the Primarchs and the Astartes were mistakes to be tolerated.
At worst, they'd take every chance they could to purge any chapter they could, knowing they could never truly be loyal the way they, the Custodes, could be.
For many Custodes, it is not a matter of if an Astartes will turn traitor, but when.
2020/04/21 02:07:17
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
jareddm wrote: At worst, they'd take every chance they could to purge any chapter they could, knowing they could never truly be loyal the way they, the Custodes, could be.
Which of course would just lead to more turmoil and more Marines going traitor. Personally, I like seeing the Custodes being pulled off their high horse, and can't wait to see them have to face off against whatever Bile is creating from their fallen brothers.
2020/04/22 19:13:29
Subject: Re:Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
They are verifiably traitor. The Custodes has authority and ask them to disarm. They refuse. Traitors.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2020/04/22 20:03:27
Subject: Re:Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
They are verifiably traitor. The Custodes has authority and ask them to disarm. They refuse. Traitors.
I agree with this. I quite liked the story for what it’s worth. Very fitting for the grim dark.
Whether or not the marines were traitors before they were asked to disarm is irrelevant. The were given a legal order to come quietly and they refused that order. From that point on they are traitors.
An innocent man resisting arrest is still guilty of resisting arrest, and a wrongly accused man on the run is still a fugitive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/22 20:04:00
2020/04/22 20:17:32
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
I think this would be a tough call for the Primaris on the ship. Their Chapter was just accused of heresy and as Captain Gerion states it could be some machination of the enemy. It is interesting how quickly those in the imperium turn on each other.
The Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels illuminated this issue in how Inquisitors view heresy in a constantly evolving way. Its especially illuminating if you finish reading the last book and then start the series again and realize he's essentially hunting the person he becomes.
2020/04/23 03:42:51
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
Jjohnso11 wrote: I think this would be a tough call for the Primaris on the ship. Their Chapter was just accused of heresy and as Captain Gerion states it could be some machination of the enemy. It is interesting how quickly those in the imperium turn on each other.
The Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels illuminated this issue in how Inquisitors view heresy in a constantly evolving way. Its especially illuminating if you finish reading the last book and then start the series again and realize he's essentially hunting the person he becomes.
Yes the arcs are extreme. The books also point out that what's right and wrong is perceived differently from person to person.
Another theme in the grim dark 40k verse is how little value is placed on individual lives. Even space marines, who are rare and valuable, are viewed as way more disposable than how our society values life.
I just read this story and I quite liked it. The Inquisitor reports that the chapter has been sanctioned Hereticus Diabolus Extremis. The astartes in the story somehow think they can talk their way out of the situation. Obviously that does not end well for them. They are even given two warnings. The Imperium is used to dealing with traitors and this situation happens sometimes. We do not know if the astartes in the story actually are traitors or not, we just know their chapter as a whole has turned. This might very well affect the astartes psychologically. The only logical response is to have them stand down untill an inquisitor can handle the situation. The astartes chose not to stand down. Big mistake.
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
2020/04/23 07:10:40
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
I thought it was a good story overall. My only complaint is that most of the fighting was one sided but most GW fluff pieces tend to be about how good one side is. I feel like this was in line for the custodes. The more radical openly hate space marines and the SoS character thought it was a little extreme. There was a HH short story where a custode and Garro go to inspect a ship with supposedly loyal emperors children on board. The custode doesn’t believe them and ends up killed by a units of white scars who were actually traitors. The custodes are incredibly blind when it comes to fealty to the emperor. For all their abilities they’re too far removed from a normal human. Heck part of the reason Valdor was so good was that he wasn’t openly contemptuous of every other being in the room.
Iron within, Iron without
2020/04/23 07:53:28
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
They are verifiably traitor. The Custodes has authority and ask them to disarm. They refuse. Traitors.
I agree with this. I quite liked the story for what it’s worth. Very fitting for the grim dark.
Whether or not the marines were traitors before they were asked to disarm is irrelevant. The were given a legal order to come quietly and they refused that order. From that point on they are traitors.
An innocent man resisting arrest is still guilty of resisting arrest, and a wrongly accused man on the run is still a fugitive.
It’s really tiresome explaining this on an endless loop, but the “is this in character for a custodes?” Question doesn’t centre on him executing them when the situation has devolved. That part is actually entirely irrelevant to the objections.
The issue is that I, and others in my camp, would have liked to see the custodian act in a distinct way from an imperial cult member such as an inquisitor or commissar when making the initial demands that the reinforcements stand down and await investigation. What we got was him acting completely indistinguishable by insisting they were tainted heretics unfit to look at or speak to an imperial citizen.
2020/04/23 13:15:05
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
“Is this in character for a Custodes” is like asking “is this in character for a human”. I’ve never encountered this particular Custodes before, this might very well be in character for this particular Custodes, especially given the established animosity between Custodes and Space Marines.
2020/04/23 13:22:00
Subject: Re:Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
They are verifiably traitor. The Custodes has authority and ask them to disarm. They refuse. Traitors.
I agree with this. I quite liked the story for what it’s worth. Very fitting for the grim dark.
Whether or not the marines were traitors before they were asked to disarm is irrelevant. The were given a legal order to come quietly and they refused that order. From that point on they are traitors.
An innocent man resisting arrest is still guilty of resisting arrest, and a wrongly accused man on the run is still a fugitive.
It’s really tiresome explaining this on an endless loop, but the “is this in character for a custodes?” Question doesn’t centre on him executing them when the situation has devolved. That part is actually entirely irrelevant to the objections.
The issue is that I, and others in my camp, would have liked to see the custodian act in a distinct way from an imperial cult member such as an inquisitor or commissar when making the initial demands that the reinforcements stand down and await investigation. What we got was him acting completely indistinguishable by insisting they were tainted heretics unfit to look at or speak to an imperial citizen.
I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?
2020/04/23 13:54:15
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
SirGunslinger wrote: I think this is fairly in keeping with the Imperium's whole philosophy of 'better safe and short a few resources than run any danger of being sorry'
It is!
But custodes aren’t representative of the imperium as a whole, they’re the last echo of the emperor’s real vision for the galaxy.
Alternately, they're the oiled up dudes in leather pants that posed around his doorways.
The weird gold super-terminators are just kind of jerks.
Jjohnso11 wrote:
I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?
Realized that there isn't any 'guilt by association' for people who have yet to meet their new unit in any way at all, and have no sympathetic leanings or heretical pamphlets given to them from multiple sectors away.
Investigating why the chapter fell and stopping them has a little more priority than arresting the greyshields that have yet to come in contact with them.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/04/23 14:10:43
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
Jjohnso11 wrote: I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?
Realized that there isn't any 'guilt by association' for people who have yet to meet their new unit in any way at all, and have no sympathetic leanings or heretical pamphlets given to them from multiple sectors away. Investigating why the chapter fell and stopping them has a little more priority than arresting the greyshields that have yet to come in contact with them.
If you didn't believe gene seed could be reason for the taint of heresy and not 'guilt by association'; this came out in a previous short story about a Space Marine Chapter who was killing individual Space Marines after they manifested psychic abilities in combat.
The background to the Custodes/Space Marine relationship has more nuance than is being discussed at this point. If it was understood that Space Marines are responsible for the Custodes greatest failure and shame it would bring to light their willingness to kill an entire Chapter at the hint of corruption. There is also an air of supremecy and eliteness to the Custodes and how they look down on the Space Marines since one is directly from the emperor and the other is from easily corrupted offspring of the Emperor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/23 14:12:43
2020/04/23 15:22:07
Subject: Re:Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
I really didn't like the story at all. Tyvar created a conflict when really there didn't need to be one, one which quickly escalated, and on a command deck no less. The Grey shields had no part in whatever had transpired, and were completely ignorant of the events themselves. i think its fair to say that captain Gerion was just as shocked as everyone else at what he was seeing,
his protest that they didn't know what had transpired was accurate, as was saying they should find out if there are any loyalists still fighting and assist them (that's a reasonable argument)
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
Then you investigate the reports. maybe the chapter has gone renegade, maybe they haven't, maybe its the alpha legion or another traitor chapter in Brazen drakes colours, maybe they are fighting an uprising and have gotten a bit overzealous, maybe the chapter is split.
If its not what it initially appears, you then have hundreds of astartes at your disposal, and a ship thats not missing parts and members of the crew
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
2020/04/23 15:29:40
Subject: Re:Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
-From the short story-
‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’
A spasm of anger passed across Gerion’s blunt features, but was swiftly hidden behind his usual guarded mask.
‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’
‘And I am not in the habit of repeating myself,’ Tyvar replied. ‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
Did you read the short story?
2020/04/23 15:41:37
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
Custodes speak with the Emperor's voice and authority. The Primaris were given the chance to disarm and allow the Custodes to investigate.
For an imperium that almost 100% of the time deals in ABSOLUTES and obliterates PLANETS for heresy, this is lenience.
What possible right does a lowly Captain? Not a Chief Librarian, not a Chapter Master, not a High Marshall, have to question such orders. He has none. Let alone the Sergeant who raises his voice and is the first to die.
His reluctance to follow orders means he is naive, like most primaris, and does not understand refusal to back down, will be met with his forces immediate annihilation.
Then he orders his brothers to seize the fleet, and they've set the bed they will lay in, they choose supposedly fallen brothers over the direct orders they've received.
Had they stood down, they'd have been detained, and the fleet would have handled the heretics/renegades, and then maybe, they could have been sent on a penance crusade, since their heresy is only by association. (Yes, people are punished in 40k for heresy by association, let alone having even SEEN heresy and not fallen to it, should it be extreme)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/23 15:47:06
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2020/04/23 15:43:14
Subject: Re:Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
-From the short story-
‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’
A spasm of anger passed across Gerion’s blunt features, but was swiftly hidden behind his usual guarded mask.
‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’
‘And I am not in the habit of repeating myself,’ Tyvar replied. ‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
Did you read the short story?
I did.
You are all traitors!
bad way to lead into a discussion, Tyvan also commanded rather than asked, and was coarse and confrontational. Tyvan rapidly escalated the situation, tyvan got lots of people killed. Custodes are supposed to be intelligent, Tyvan is an idiot.
'Captain Gerion, given the circumstances, please could you leave the command deck until we can ascertain what has transpired, it pains me to have to take this measure given that you and your marines obviously had no part in this, i would also ask that you surrender your weapons and confine yourselves to your quarters until further notice. I will brief you and your men once we have fully assessed the situation'
Perfectly reasonable, intelligent, non confrontational situation. gets all the ducks in a row. if gerion complies, no confrontational situation, gray shields in one place, unarmed and unarmoured if they refuse;
'Captain Gerion, i must insist that you follow my lawfully given commands'
now its an order, not a request. if they still refuse, or accept but don't surrender their weapons, take them down
as i said, Tyvan is an idiot, he didn't manage the situation well at all, he caused the fighting on the ship.
2020/04/23 16:14:34
Subject: Re:Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
-From the short story-
‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’
A spasm of anger passed across Gerion’s blunt features, but was swiftly hidden behind his usual guarded mask.
‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’
‘And I am not in the habit of repeating myself,’ Tyvar replied. ‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
Did you read the short story?
I did.
You are all traitors!
bad way to lead into a discussion, Tyvan also commanded rather than asked, and was coarse and confrontational. Tyvan rapidly escalated the situation, tyvan got lots of people killed. Custodes are supposed to be intelligent, Tyvan is an idiot.
'Captain Gerion, given the circumstances, please could you leave the command deck until we can ascertain what has transpired, it pains me to have to take this measure given that you and your marines obviously had no part in this, i would also ask that you surrender your weapons and confine yourselves to your quarters until further notice. I will brief you and your men once we have fully assessed the situation'
Perfectly reasonable, intelligent, non confrontational situation. gets all the ducks in a row. if gerion complies, no confrontational situation, gray shields in one place, unarmed and unarmoured if they refuse;
'Captain Gerion, i must insist that you follow my lawfully given commands'
now its an order, not a request. if they still refuse, or accept but don't surrender their weapons, take them down
as i said, Tyvan is an idiot, he didn't manage the situation well at all, he caused the fighting on the ship.
Wut.
A police officer doesn't politely ask an armed potential threat to disarm themselves and check themselves into prison, they order and command them to using their authority as law enforcement officers. Likewise a military commander does not ask their troops politely to do xyz, he orders and commands them to using their lawful authority.
In the real world, a situation like this would largely play out the same exact way - a superior officer that had cause to question loyalty of a troop for any reason whatsoever (whether it is warranted or not) would not politely ask them to surrender their arms and confine themselves to quarters, they would order them to. If they refused, they would order them to be forcefully disarmed by armsmen, guards, security forces, or what-have-you. If they continued to resist then you get escalation to non-lethal means, followed by lethal means if necessary. The Custodes here, I guess, did jump the gun by jumping to lethality, but thats the grimdark 41st Millennium for you - that action and behavior was 100% on brand for both the Custodes and the Imperium as a whole. To be fair, its not like the Custodes really had anyone that would be reasonably capable of forcefully disarming a squad of Primaris marines, what with them being geneticall engineered superhumans and all, the Custodes is theoeretically the only entity present that is as physically capable as an Astartes, and theres only one of him.
The Shield-Captain has authority in this situation, the marines do not. He is ordering them to follow his commands under the penalty that comes with insubordination and refusal. The marines were insubordinate and they paid the price for it in a way and manner appropriate for the setting.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2020/04/23 16:22:18
Subject: Apparently Custodes can be utter morons too....(PA shortstory)
A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.
The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
-From the short story-
‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’
A spasm of anger passed across Gerion’s blunt features, but was swiftly hidden behind his usual guarded mask.
‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’
‘And I am not in the habit of repeating myself,’ Tyvar replied. ‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
Did you read the short story?
I did.
You are all traitors!
bad way to lead into a discussion, Tyvan also commanded rather than asked, and was coarse and confrontational. Tyvan rapidly escalated the situation, tyvan got lots of people killed. Custodes are supposed to be intelligent, Tyvan is an idiot.
'Captain Gerion, given the circumstances, please could you leave the command deck until we can ascertain what has transpired, it pains me to have to take this measure given that you and your marines obviously had no part in this, i would also ask that you surrender your weapons and confine yourselves to your quarters until further notice. I will brief you and your men once we have fully assessed the situation'
Perfectly reasonable, intelligent, non confrontational situation. gets all the ducks in a row. if gerion complies, no confrontational situation, gray shields in one place, unarmed and unarmoured if they refuse;
'Captain Gerion, i must insist that you follow my lawfully given commands'
now its an order, not a request. if they still refuse, or accept but don't surrender their weapons, take them down
as i said, Tyvan is an idiot, he didn't manage the situation well at all, he caused the fighting on the ship.
Wut.
A police officer doesn't politely ask an armed potential threat to disarm themselves and check themselves into prison, they order and command them to using their authority as law enforcement officers. Likewise a military commander does not ask their troops politely to do xyz, he orders and commands them to using their lawful authority.
In the real world, a situation like this would largely play out the same exact way - a superior officer that had cause to question loyalty of a troop for any reason whatsoever (whether it is warranted or not) would not politely ask them to surrender their arms and confine themselves to quarters, they would order them to. If they refused, they would order them to be forcefully disarmed by armsmen, guards, security forces, or what-have-you. If they continued to resist then you get escalation to non-lethal means, followed by lethal means if necessary. The Custodes here, I guess, did jump the gun by jumping to lethality, but thats the grimdark 41st Millennium for you - that action and behavior was 100% on brand for both the Custodes and the Imperium as a whole. To be fair, its not like the Custodes really had anyone that would be reasonably capable of forcefully disarming a squad of Primaris marines, what with them being geneticall engineered superhumans and all, the Custodes is theoeretically the only entity present that is as physically capable as an Astartes, and theres only one of him.
The Shield-Captain has authority in this situation, the marines do not. He is ordering them to follow his commands under the penalty that comes with insubordination and refusal. The marines were insubordinate and they paid the price for it in a way and manner appropriate for the setting.
I agree it is appropriate for the setting, even the emperors bodyguards are completely incompetent. Yes Tyvar is in command, but i completely disagree with how he executed his authority. Custodes, according to the fluff are highly educated and extremely intelligent. sure they might have little patience for Astartes given the little thing called the heresy, but Tyvar could have worked with Gerion, and rather than immediately think the worst and be threatening and aggressive, use that intelligence and education to good effect. thats just my take, Tyvar is to blame, and the consequences could be the ones he's going to face if he survives.
'
10000 pts
4000 pts
