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madtankbloke wrote:
I agree it is appropriate for the setting, even the emperors bodyguards are completely incompetent. Yes Tyvar is in command, but i completely disagree with how he executed his authority. Custodes, according to the fluff are highly educated and extremely intelligent. sure they might have little patience for Astartes given the little thing called the heresy, but Tyvar could have worked with Gerion, and rather than immediately think the worst and be threatening and aggressive, use that intelligence and education to good effect. thats just my take, Tyvar is to blame, and the consequences could be the ones he's going to face if he survives.

I think the issue stems from the corrupt Chapter and Captain Gerion not directly obeying Tyvar when he was given an order. He should have understood the magnitude of the situation when an entire planet is under duress and with Tyvan forced to formulate a plan to kill the heretics on the planet while also worrying about the reinforcements he just brought to the heretics. I blame the heretics on the planet and not Tyvar and the position he's in- assessing the Space Marines in near proximity to him who have close ties to those corrupt Space Marines on the planet. Captain Gerion already made a damning statement by denying that his Chapter is tainted and trying to transfer the blame to enemy machinations without facts.

Reading history Tyvan understands how ENTIRE LEGIONS became corrupt when their Primarchs turned to Chaos.

It's a weird story. Of all the things to explore, the idea that Custodes expect immediate obedience from Astartes was not what I expected.

Maybe a bit of insight into Tyvar's though process would have helped. How many grey shields are there, could they actually take the fleet, etc. If Tyvar realizes that the primaris could overwhelm them if they got the chance, that changes things quickly.

 Polonius wrote:
It's a weird story. Of all the things to explore, the idea that Custodes expect immediate obedience from Astartes was not what I expected.

Maybe a bit of insight into Tyvar's though process would have helped. How many grey shields are there, could they actually take the fleet, etc. If Tyvar realizes that the primaris could overwhelm them if they got the chance, that changes things quickly.

I do believe in the story that they state there are 2 battle companies of Primaris in the fleet, but they don't state how many ships are in the fleet, or what other forces are present.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's a weird story. Of all the things to explore, the idea that Custodes expect immediate obedience from Astartes was not what I expected.

Maybe a bit of insight into Tyvar's though process would have helped. How many grey shields are there, could they actually take the fleet, etc. If Tyvar realizes that the primaris could overwhelm them if they got the chance, that changes things quickly.

I do believe in the story that they state there are 2 battle companies of Primaris in the fleet, but they don't state how many ships are in the fleet, or what other forces are present.

right, which is a strong fighting force, right?

I think a more profoundly interesting story would have delved into that, perhaps with the sister of silence, our POV character, guessing what Tygar was thinking, and then realizing herself that they have, say, a dozen custodes and 100 sisters to defend against 200 primaris. While she may be intiially shocked at Tygar's escalation of things, she would quickly realize that he saw the same thing. Make the story about a rumination on duty, and loyalty, and making hard choices, instead of a a quick frame for some hot Primars on Talons action.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
I agree it is appropriate for the setting, even the emperors bodyguards are completely incompetent. Yes Tyvar is in command, but i completely disagree with how he executed his authority. Custodes, according to the fluff are highly educated and extremely intelligent. sure they might have little patience for Astartes given the little thing called the heresy, but Tyvar could have worked with Gerion, and rather than immediately think the worst and be threatening and aggressive, use that intelligence and education to good effect. thats just my take, Tyvar is to blame, and the consequences could be the ones he's going to face if he survives.

I think the issue stems from the corrupt Chapter and Captain Gerion not directly obeying Tyvar when he was given an order. He should have understood the magnitude of the situation when an entire planet is under duress and with Tyvan forced to formulate a plan to kill the heretics on the planet while also worrying about the reinforcements he just brought to the heretics. I blame the heretics on the planet and not Tyvar and the position he's in- assessing the Space Marines in near proximity to him who have close ties to those corrupt Space Marines on the planet. Captain Gerion already made a damning statement by denying that his Chapter is tainted and trying to transfer the blame to enemy machinations without facts.

Reading history Tyvan understands how ENTIRE LEGIONS became corrupt when their Primarchs turned to Chaos.

My understanding is that marines being delivered to chapters will be made up from Awoken Primaris, therefore their template will be from the primarch and chapter the brazen drakes were descended from, and not the brazen drakes themselves, they are not Indoctrinated Primaris, nor are they ascended, otherwise why are they being delivered? the Brazen drakes would already have primaris. If we are going to use 'guilt by association', then Tyvar better declare all the Primaris of that particular lineage surplus to requirements and have them liquidated, along with the first founding chapter the Brazen drakes are descended from, as well as all descendents of that first founding chapter, and why stop there? if one lineage is suspected, kill them all.

up until they are delivered, Gerion and the Primaris have nothing to do with whatever has transpired. My objection isn't that the Brazen Drakes were traitors (they may or may not be, we hardly have sufficient context from the story) but that Tyvar is cast as being more zealous than the most trigger happy commissar. Custodes are supposed to be Philosopher warriors with heightened intelligence and superior education to go with their superior physical capabilities. Tyvar demonstrated neither of those things.

STOP RESISTING

I would really like to see a short story where Gulliman disobeys Maldovar Colquan (the custodian who follows Gulliman around) or does something to anger him, something more than the usual amount of condescension Colquan takes from Gulliman. In response, Colquan pulls his Misericordia on Gulliman. Everyone around them is in shock that someone might kill the Imperial Regent, but the Custodian is so narrowly focused that all that matters is Gulliman's perceived treachery, however small. Gulliman must receive the appropriate threat in response.

 catbarf wrote:
A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.

The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.

Yup. Seen this in a few places. So many people crying "But muh Primaris!" because they don't seem to understand how the imperium works when their only knowledge of the background is via memes...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.

The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.

Yup. Seen this in a few places. So many people crying "But muh Primaris!" because they don't seem to understand how the imperium works when their only knowledge of the background is via memes...

and there's this bizzare myth that the custodes have remained super rational. they haven't. the one thing the materials been pretty consistant on is that the cusrtodes have their own issues too. and one of these is a reflexive DISTRUST OF THE ASTARTES

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Jjohnso11 wrote:
I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?

Realized that there isn't any 'guilt by association' for people who have yet to meet their new unit in any way at all, and have no sympathetic leanings or heretical pamphlets given to them from multiple sectors away.
Investigating why the chapter fell and stopping them has a little more priority than arresting the greyshields that have yet to come in contact with them.

If you didn't believe gene seed could be reason for the taint of heresy and not 'guilt by association'; this came out in a previous short story about a Space Marine Chapter who was killing individual Space Marines after they manifested psychic abilities in combat.

Given that we don't have any idea who the Brazen Drakes descend from and even if the Greyshields assigned to them come from the same stock... I'm not really sure what the relevance is of a different story about an individual chapter manifesting random psychic powers on regular basis, when their progenitor Legion, whoever they are, never did that. Nor, as far as we know, any other chapter descended from the same geneseed. So... the 'but tainted geneseed' and 'but Primarchs' argument don't really hold any weight.

Modern chapters go bad individually, often not even as a whole. Literally no one turns on the Ultramarines for tainted geneseed when the <Whomever chapter> turns. No first founders got an accusation when the Astral Claws turned, despite the fact that have to share geneseed with someone. There have even been cases where an entire company of a First Founding chapter has gone all chaos traitor, and no one squawks about the Chapter as a whole going bad.

Primarchs aren't around to order the chapters into treachery. Neither situation seems to apply here.

I think that, although maybe clunky in its execution and a bit bereft of context because it's a short short story, it is a welcome tonal shift for 8th.

too much of the brightness of Guilliman and primaris is shining through so at a glance the imperium has lost its darkness. Now we know it hasn't, but it certainly could be mistaken for having lost it.

This story firmly puts that brutality and infighting back in the spotlight. The fact it's shocked and angered people IMO means it's done its job.

I imagine there are also lots of new kids reading this stuff who only know that marines are bad ass and primaris are the best going 'OMG that gold dude is the GOAT with balls of steel for totally killing a marine, I want them!".

Or whatever lingo the fellow kids say...

Voss wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Jjohnso11 wrote:
I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?

Realized that there isn't any 'guilt by association' for people who have yet to meet their new unit in any way at all, and have no sympathetic leanings or heretical pamphlets given to them from multiple sectors away.
Investigating why the chapter fell and stopping them has a little more priority than arresting the greyshields that have yet to come in contact with them.

If you didn't believe gene seed could be reason for the taint of heresy and not 'guilt by association'; this came out in a previous short story about a Space Marine Chapter who was killing individual Space Marines after they manifested psychic abilities in combat.

Given that we don't have any idea who the Brazen Drakes descend from and even if the Greyshields assigned to them come from the same stock... I'm not really sure what the relevance is of a different story about an individual chapter manifesting random psychic powers on regular basis, when their progenitor Legion, whoever they are, never did that. Nor, as far as we know, any other chapter descended from the same geneseed. So... the 'but tainted geneseed' and 'but Primarchs' argument don't really hold any weight.

Modern chapters go bad individually, often not even as a whole. Literally no one turns on the Ultramarines for tainted geneseed when the <Whomever chapter> turns. No first founders got an accusation when the Astral Claws turned, despite the fact that have to share geneseed with someone. There have even been cases where an entire company of a First Founding chapter has gone all chaos traitor, and no one squawks about the Chapter as a whole going bad.

Primarchs aren't around to order the chapters into treachery. Neither situation seems to apply here.

In the eyes of the Imperium, the First Founding chapters have been shown over and over again to be above the taint of their successors, at least broadly. Later founding chapters don't have this kind of protection and likely never could. Just look at poor Astraeos, whose chapter was purged on his actions alone. Or the Doom Legion, who are still on the Inquisition's gak list after the half that went on the Abyssal Crusade turned, and even then they consider themselves having gotten off easy.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.

The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.

Yup. Seen this in a few places. So many people crying "But muh Primaris!" because they don't seem to understand how the imperium works when their only knowledge of the background is via memes...

and there's this bizzare myth that the custodes have remained super rational. they haven't. the one thing the materials been pretty consistant on is that the cusrtodes have their own issues too. and one of these is a reflexive DISTRUST OF THE ASTARTES

Hellebore wrote:I think that, although maybe clunky in its execution and a bit bereft of context because it's a short short story, it is a welcome tonal shift for 8th.

too much of the brightness of Guilliman and primaris is shining through so at a glance the imperium has lost its darkness. Now we know it hasn't, but it certainly could be mistaken for having lost it.

This story firmly puts that brutality and infighting back in the spotlight. The fact it's shocked and angered people IMO means it's done its job.

I imagine there are also lots of new kids reading this stuff who only know that marines are bad ass and primaris are the best going 'OMG that gold dude is the GOAT with balls of steel for totally killing a marine, I want them!".

Or whatever lingo the fellow kids say...

Yup and yup. The problem is that people are suddenly realizing that their perfect, shiny, golden boys aren't that perfect, shiny, or golden. Remember, these are the same guys who slaughtered the Thunder Warriors without hesitation.

It's like I said in the "Is gw trying to get away from grimdark" thread:

THE GRIMDARK HASN'T GONE ANYWHERE. IT'S BEEN RIGHT HERE ALL ALONG BABY!

jareddm wrote:
In the eyes of the Imperium, the First Founding chapters have been shown over and over again to be above the taint of their successors, at least broadly. Later founding chapters don't have this kind of protection and likely never could. Just look at poor Astraeos, whose chapter was purged on his actions alone. Or the Doom Legion, who are still on the Inquisition's gak list after the half that went on the Abyssal Crusade turned, and even then they consider themselves having gotten off easy.

At that point though, you've got to realize that if the Legions turned First Founding are immune to suspicion and later chapters aren't, it has nothing at all to do with the Heresy.

And makes the various Angels hiding away their dirty secrets a complete waste of time and effort.

So i don't think that tracks.

Hellebore wrote:I think that, although maybe clunky in its execution and a bit bereft of context because it's a short short story, it is a welcome tonal shift for 8th.

too much of the brightness of Guilliman and primaris is shining through so at a glance the imperium has lost its darkness. Now we know it hasn't, but it certainly could be mistaken for having lost it.

This story firmly puts that brutality and infighting back in the spotlight. The fact it's shocked and angered people IMO means it's done its job.

Alternately, people who thought Big G and Primaris somehow represented 'brightness' were just wrong. Marines (primaris or not) and primarchs are still just genetically engineered soldiers for mass genocide. That never changed, and there was nothing to suggest it would.

Even if it did, it doesn't make a rather silly edgelord blue-on-blue 'who's the better superman?' fight anything other than lazy writing.

Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.

They always were.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.

and it's worth noting the Primaris Marines started trying to make EXCUSES. "maybe it's a trick of the enemy" etc/ that puts them as immediatly suspect as they might be inclined to listen to the traitors and allow themselves to be lured into damnation themselves.

had the primaris captain instead said "Sheild captain, I understand your request but none wish to purge this taint greater then I! we shall cloister ourselves in our quarters, but I ask that you consider allowing us to aide in reaping the emperor's vengence on these traitors" or something. the sheild captain may have been willing to consider it. instead ".. BUT MAYBE THEY'RE INNOCENT.... and no we won;t give you our guns" yeaaaaah

BrianDavion wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.

and it's worth noting the Primaris Marines started trying to make EXCUSES. "maybe it's a trick of the enemy" etc/ that puts them as immediatly suspect as they might be inclined to listen to the traitors and allow themselves to be lured into damnation themselves.

had the primaris captain instead said "Sheild captain, I understand your request but none wish to purge this taint greater then I! we shall cloister ourselves in our quarters, but I ask that you consider allowing us to aide in reaping the emperor's vengence on these traitors" or something. the sheild captain may have been willing to consider it. instead ".. BUT MAYBE THEY'RE INNOCENT.... and no we won;t give you our guns" yeaaaaah

I expect that kind of thing from marines, however the shield captain should have said

"I understand that while you have had no contact with your new parent chapter, the decree is absolute, so we must return you and your men to the lord commander so this can be resolved, I would appreciate your cooperation on this difficult matter"

"what of our brothers on the surface some of them may still be loyal"

"You have fought in the indomitus crusade for 2 centuries and know of the taint of chaos, even loyal your brothers cannot be saved, better that you return with us to seek vengeance for your fallen kin against the arch enemy"

So the shield captain uses reason and diplomacy and not the level of intellect I would expect from a sister zealot or a black templar

"raaaaa you no listen me, me have authority, you heretic, raaa you die now traitor"

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.

The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.

Yup. Seen this in a few places. So many people crying "But muh Primaris!" because they don't seem to understand how the imperium works when their only knowledge of the background is via memes...

and there's this bizzare myth that the custodes have remained super rational. they haven't. the one thing the materials been pretty consistant on is that the cusrtodes have their own issues too. and one of these is a reflexive DISTRUST OF THE ASTARTES

Hellebore wrote:I think that, although maybe clunky in its execution and a bit bereft of context because it's a short short story, it is a welcome tonal shift for 8th.

too much of the brightness of Guilliman and primaris is shining through so at a glance the imperium has lost its darkness. Now we know it hasn't, but it certainly could be mistaken for having lost it.

This story firmly puts that brutality and infighting back in the spotlight. The fact it's shocked and angered people IMO means it's done its job.

I imagine there are also lots of new kids reading this stuff who only know that marines are bad ass and primaris are the best going 'OMG that gold dude is the GOAT with balls of steel for totally killing a marine, I want them!".

Or whatever lingo the fellow kids say...

Yup and yup. The problem is that people are suddenly realizing that their perfect, shiny, golden boys aren't that perfect, shiny, or golden. Remember, these are the same guys who slaughtered the Thunder Warriors without hesitation.

It's like I said in the "Is gw trying to get away from grimdark" thread:

THE GRIMDARK HASN'T GONE ANYWHERE. IT'S BEEN RIGHT HERE ALL ALONG BABY!

Honesty this is an amazing amount of dismissiveness and putting words in people’s mouths.

For the thousandth time across various threads and platforms: The issue is purely that custodes should, if written well, be pretty distinct from the various imperial cult organisations. That doesn’t mean they should necessarily be less grimdark, or less like jerks, less flawed and biased, or even that this should have ended another way. Just... distinct. It’s bad writing that this Shield Captain isn’t written distinct from an inquisitor, commissar ect In the same position, and could be fixed with as little as a paragraph or two of changes near the start of the fic.

Sniff, Im still havent gotten over what your brothers did 10000 years ago. Whom i havent dealt with for 10k years.
Custodian Tyvar. probably.

Its a good thing he didnt turn up to see just a humie khaos uprising. Brazen Drakes please kill all humans in this fleet.
Custodian Tyvar is a incompetent oaf.

 Formosa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.

and it's worth noting the Primaris Marines started trying to make EXCUSES. "maybe it's a trick of the enemy" etc/ that puts them as immediatly suspect as they might be inclined to listen to the traitors and allow themselves to be lured into damnation themselves.

had the primaris captain instead said "Sheild captain, I understand your request but none wish to purge this taint greater then I! we shall cloister ourselves in our quarters, but I ask that you consider allowing us to aide in reaping the emperor's vengence on these traitors" or something. the sheild captain may have been willing to consider it. instead ".. BUT MAYBE THEY'RE INNOCENT.... and no we won;t give you our guns" yeaaaaah

I expect that kind of thing from marines, however the shield captain should have said

"I understand that while you have had no contact with your new parent chapter, the decree is absolute, so we must return you and your men to the lord commander so this can be resolved, I would appreciate your cooperation on this difficult matter"

"what of our brothers on the surface some of them may still be loyal"

"You have fought in the indomitus crusade for 2 centuries and know of the taint of chaos, even loyal your brothers cannot be saved, better that you return with us to seek vengeance for your fallen kin against the arch enemy"

So the shield captain uses reason and diplomacy and not the level of intellect I would expect from a sister zealot or a black templar

"raaaaa you no listen me, me have authority, you heretic, raaa you die now traitor"

maybe except thats not how the custodes are actually depicted. they're foten depicted as a bit stand offish and prone to "we'll tell you to do this once.. don't test us" with regards to marines. the short story about the blood ravens getting their primaris shipment had the custodes being pretty standoffish too

Yes Custodes are intelligent and educated, but I don't think this translates into emotional intelligence, If fact we know it doesn't as the Custodes have a massive superiority complex and treat any lesser beings with derision.
There are many people in the real world who are both educated and intelligent but are abrasive and horrid to be around.

Secondly, the context of this conversation is a soldier giving an order to a subordinate. You don't give an order by saying please could you possibly do this and gosh it was a tough call.

If anything I'd say the primaris marine was out of order here, he disobeyed a direct order twice and questioned the competence of a superior officer in front of the entire command deck.

Funny thing, may be worth considering. Does this feel almost ... book-end-ish to anyone else? Almost like it's setting up a reprise where Tyvar may have to face his own consequences; perhaps even (if the trailer of Fabius digging into what looks like a Custos means anything) dark failings of his own genestock?

I think my only main gripe is that the Primaris Marines are Greyshields.
From Tyvar's perspective, why would Greyshields with no connection to the Chapter be at risk? I understand them not respecting his authority being a crime, but why even ask them to respect his authority anyways?

From Gerion's perspective, why so attached to a Chapter you've literally never met?

This whole story would be so much better without the mention of Greyshields, IMO. Just have it as "these two companies of Brazen Drakes were on crusade, with a Custodes escort, and they've only just come home". That way, their dilemma of "we should trust our Battle Brothers" is way more believable and similarly, the Custodes have WAY more reason to suspect that the contingent of Marines really were traitors, because they've actually had contact with the main Chapter.

 Kroem wrote:

Secondly, the context of this conversation is a soldier giving an order to a subordinate. You don't give an order by saying please could you possibly do this and gosh it was a tough call.

If anything I'd say the primaris marine was out of order here, he disobeyed a direct order twice and questioned the competence of a superior officer in front of the entire command deck.

I don’t think the captain’s questions were unreasonable. Contrary to popular belief, military leaders who don’t listen to their subordinates objections tend to do poorly. Ask any lieutenant who doesn’t listen to their platoon sergeant . Also considering that the custodes demand came at gun point, it’s hard to see how it couldn’t have gone wrong. The Imperium’s shoot first, burn it, and the shoot the corpse policy is the real culprit hear.

The custodes were designed to be diplomats and savants 10,000 years prior in a galaxy that was very different. They spent the next 10,000 years basically sulking. It’s hardly surprising that they’d struggle to get along with others. The grudge against the astartes was also at play here. The custodes aren’t infallible, even if they believe otherwise.

While I haven't read this particular story, and in general the Custodes always sounded like they were supposed to generally be brilliantly intelligent, wise, and learned men able to interact with the Emperor as an almost equal (in addition to being mighty warriors), this also does sound like it fits into the general 40k grimdark theme.

That said, GW in general has an atrocious habit, particularly in regards to powerful super soldiers and great leaders, of writing characters that are essentially emotional toddlers, literal manchildren who are ready and willing to throw temper tantrums and resort to violence, even against their peers, at the slightest of pretenses and who carry deep grudges for literal eternity. Far too much of the 40k universe is predicated on genetically engineered super soldiers having the emotional maturity of 5 year olds, that's basically half the setup to the Horus Heresy, and its fair to point how that can wear thin or come off badly.

I don't think that they were unreasonable either, but I can see why the Custode took them as a sign of guilt.

Soldiers being discouraged from using their initiative or questioning commanders orders has been a common feature of many historical armies, in fact I'm currently reading 'Road to Nandikadal' about pre-civil war Sri Lanka forces doing exactly that! Appreciate that this differs from current western military thinking on the subject.

Imperial culture lionisies ignorance and obedience. Custodes aren't immune to that even if they are superior beings, so it makes sense to me that he would bristle at being questioned by a subordinate.

Kroem wrote:Yes Custodes are intelligent and educated, but I don't think this translates into emotional intelligence, If fact we know it doesn't as the Custodes have a massive superiority complex and treat any lesser beings with derision.
There are many people in the real world who are both educated and intelligent but are abrasive and horrid to be around.

Secondly, the context of this conversation is a soldier giving an order to a subordinate. You don't give an order by saying please could you possibly do this and gosh it was a tough call.

If anything I'd say the primaris marine was out of order here, he disobeyed a direct order twice and questioned the competence of a superior officer in front of the entire command deck.

Them having a superiority complex is inaccurate. Some of them surely do, but their codex and novels like watchers of the throne and master of mankind repeatedly state that every one of them is unique, therefore we see guys like the shield captain from the short story, but also guys like valerian from watchers of the throne, who does in fact care about others.
Assigning a character trait to a faction is especially inaccurate regarding the custodes, because again...it has been stated over and over again that every one of them was made unique and purposefully so.

evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

 Kroem wrote:

Secondly, the context of this conversation is a soldier giving an order to a subordinate. You don't give an order by saying please could you possibly do this and gosh it was a tough call.

If anything I'd say the primaris marine was out of order here, he disobeyed a direct order twice and questioned the competence of a superior officer in front of the entire command deck.

I don’t think the captain’s questions were unreasonable. Contrary to popular belief, military leaders who don’t listen to their subordinates objections tend to do poorly. Ask any lieutenant who doesn’t listen to their platoon sergeant . Also considering that the custodes demand came at gun point, it’s hard to see how it couldn’t have gone wrong. The Imperium’s shoot first, burn it, and the shoot the corpse policy is the real culprit hear.

The custodes were designed to be diplomats and savants 10,000 years prior in a galaxy that was very different. They spent the next 10,000 years basically sulking. It’s hardly surprising that they’d struggle to get along with others. The grudge against the astartes was also at play here. The custodes aren’t infallible, even if they believe otherwise.

I don't know why does comes up time and time again, but as we now know from multiple publications not least of which their own 8th ed codex, the custodes did in fact NOT spend 10k years sulking, far from it. Should they have been more involved in guiding the imperium as councelors and emissaries? Yeah, probably, but that happens when an entire faction with such a long history gets retconnend into a playable faction by GW.

I did see this image the other day when the drama was unfolding n facebook.

As a custodes fan, gave me a laugh

betrayal shame by Richard Rose, on Flickr

 Kroem wrote:

Imperial culture lionisies ignorance and obedience. Custodes aren't immune to that even if they are superior beings, so it makes sense to me that he would bristle at being questioned by a subordinate.

Is that the relationship? Commander and subordinate, or are they separate chains of command?
My understanding was the latter- no one living outside a specific chair had any real authority over the Custodes, and they're their own enclosed branch of the Imperium.

In theory, the Ship Captain should be the one in charge of security matters on her own ship, with the understanding that she has to toe a lot of lines, because she's got three independent organizations to deal with (Custodes, SoS and Marines)