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Perfectly fine with the tone and content of the story.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think my only main gripe is that the Primaris Marines are Greyshields.
From Tyvar's perspective, why would Greyshields with no connection to the Chapter be at risk? I understand them not respecting his authority being a crime, but why even ask them to respect his authority anyways?

From Gerion's perspective, why so attached to a Chapter you've literally never met?

This whole story would be so much better without the mention of Greyshields, IMO. Just have it as "these two companies of Brazen Drakes were on crusade, with a Custodes escort, and they've only just come home". That way, their dilemma of "we should trust our Battle Brothers" is way more believable and similarly, the Custodes have WAY more reason to suspect that the contingent of Marines really were traitors, because they've actually had contact with the main Chapter.

Because its the Imperium. Its a bureaucratic regime utterly lacking enlightenment, rationality, logic, or reason, just as it always had. This has been a hallmark of the fluff for literally decades at this point, why does *anyone* expect anything different? The whole point of this story is that they *are* Greyshields, we as readers are supposed to recognize the stupidity and lack of rationality in the Custodes behavior immediately. We are also supposed to recognize that this is what the Imperium is, and that this action is par for the course in terms of what we should expect.

Is that the relationship? Commander and subordinate, or are they separate chains of command?
My understanding was the latter- no one living outside a specific chair had any real authority over the Custodes, and they're their own enclosed branch of the Imperium.

The Custodes speak with the voice of the Emperor, in effect their word and authority is essentially absolute.

chaos0xomega wrote:
we as readers are supposed to recognize the stupidity and lack of rationality in the Custodes behavior immediately.

The Custodes speak with the voice of the Emperor, in effect their word and authority is essentially absolute.

This contrast is what people are complaining about. There is the belief that if they are the voice of the Emperor, then they are expected to be as smart and as rational as the Emperor, and when they're not it seems out of character.

I personally don't think this is a problem, not every Custodes is Valerian or Navradaran, but it seems to be the crux of the main argument around the Custode's actions.

Except the Horus Heresy series has shown us that the Emperor himself was really not much better. He may have been intelligent and visionary, but he was arrogant, short-sighted, impatient, and often acted in a way that may have made sense to him but otherwise irrational and illogical to outside observers. The Emperors own behavior had just as much to do with pushing the primarchs to rebel as did the machinations of chaos, thats like a central conceit of the Horus Heresy series. The action of the Custodes in this story are along those same lines, just on a much smaller scale.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Except the Horus Heresy series has shown us that the Emperor himself was really not much better. He may have been intelligent and visionary, but he was arrogant, short-sighted, impatient, and often acted in a way that may have made sense to him but otherwise irrational and illogical to outside observers. The Emperors own behavior had just as much to do with pushing the primarchs to rebel as did the machinations of chaos, thats like a central conceit of the Horus Heresy series. The action of the Custodes in this story are along those same lines, just on a much smaller scale.

And yet plenty of fans push that the Custodes still uphold the Emperor's "Imperial Truth" of logic and rationality, which we now know to be a joke. But people still believe it.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Because its the Imperium. Its a bureaucratic regime utterly lacking enlightenment, rationality, logic, or reason, just as it always had. This has been a hallmark of the fluff for literally decades at this point, why does *anyone* expect anything different? The whole point of this story is that they *are* Greyshields, we as readers are supposed to recognize the stupidity and lack of rationality in the Custodes behavior immediately. We are also supposed to recognize that this is what the Imperium is, and that this action is par for the course in terms of what we should expect.

I'm not sure I agree. The Imperium is irrational and unenlightened, illogical and unreasonable by OUR standards, but there are logics and reasons within the setting itself.
Accusing Greyshields who have NEVER met the Chapter they were supposed to meet (which is vastly different from any situation we've had before with the Crusader Host or with 30k loyalists from traitor legions) or the crimes of Space Marines they've also never met just doesn't seem to fit with what I've come to expect from the Imperium.
The Imperium's unreasonable and cruel, yes, but not ALWAYS. Now, if these had been Marines already attached to the Chapter who had been away for a long time? It would still be unreasonable and irrational for the Custodian, but at least *slightly* logical. With the current one as presented, even within the logic of the setting, it makes no sense. If the Custodian is going to blame the Greyshields for that, surely they should also be blaming every single Greyshield from that genetic makeup? So, if the Brazen Drakes were Ultramarines successors, does that mean the Custodian believes ALL Ultramarines Greyshields to be corrupted? Because that's the only way that works with even a slight amount of thought.

And similarly, why are the Space Marines so adamant to defend brethren they've never met and have no connection to beyond "we're supposed to join you because she share the same bloodline"? Again, if they'd been part of the Chapter beforehand, or they were coming to the aid of Marines they had history with, it would make sense, if irrational and foolhardy.

Basically, by having them as Greyshields, it seems to break some of the internal logic the setting does possess. There *is* logic with 40k, at least, narrative logic.

BrianDavion wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.

and it's worth noting the Primaris Marines started trying to make EXCUSES. "maybe it's a trick of the enemy" etc/ that puts them as immediatly suspect as they might be inclined to listen to the traitors and allow themselves to be lured into damnation themselves.

had the primaris captain instead said "Sheild captain, I understand your request but none wish to purge this taint greater then I! we shall cloister ourselves in our quarters, but I ask that you consider allowing us to aide in reaping the emperor's vengence on these traitors" or something. the sheild captain may have been willing to consider it. instead ".. BUT MAYBE THEY'RE INNOCENT.... and no we won;t give you our guns" yeaaaaah

That's true, they did indeed put themselves in greater trouble by making it seem like they could possibly go rogue, even if unintentionally. And the response you gave was far better the what was said in the story, though it might have still elicited the same response.

I wonder if the chapter name of the Brazen Drakes is supposed to allude to the Brazen Beasts (I know they're not the same, just that their names are similar), and that the Drakes might have turned to Khorne worship.

Now it would be a more intersting story if the custodes were not oh so perfectly uncorruptible. So that the new primaris were left thinking "what if this is a total trap and the custodes is in on it! They are setting us up to kill us easily, don't hand over the guns to a possibly corrupted leader! We are the only truly loyal people here that we know of, maybe we need to stop both our brothers and the custod dude."
"Yes, Sir" says another of the marines, a bit glassy eyed "and I have a CLEVER PLAN to do so, that I think we should consider."
...
I mean, isn't that how gene seeds go bad?

Voss wrote:
Is that the relationship? Commander and subordinate, or are they separate chains of command?
My understanding was the latter- no one living outside a specific chair had any real authority over the Custodes, and they're their own enclosed branch of the Imperium.

Yeah that's like saying Kim Jung-Un is in a separate chain of command from, uh, absolutely anyone in ROK.
Nah, not really.

The Imperium of Man is a place where your superior says "Jump", you...

1.) Ask "How high?" and get shot for questioning orders
2.) Hesitate and get shot for hesitating.
3.) Jump as hard as you can as fast as you can and keep jumping until told otherwise.

Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.

The Custodes know this all too well. The first words out of the marine's mouth are to defend "his" battle-brothers, even though they haven't met their Chapter brothers yet. All he was told to do was stand down and order his fellow marines to surrender their arms until they figured out what to do with them.

And he still argued. This is the Imperium, this is a Custodes talking. Custodes basically outrank almost everybody. Are you a High Lord of Terra? Lord Inquisitor? Fleet Admiral? Chapter Master? No? Then shut up and follow orders, to the letter, without hesitation. Or you're a traitor.

The bad writing here is that the Space Marine didn't surrender immediately, without hesitation and order his battle brothers to do the same. Not the idea that the Custodes would want the marines locked down immediately on the off chance the 200 supersoldiers might turn on them. Because Space Marines are loyal to their battle brothers to the absurd degree (see above).

And that is actually why the story isn't badly written. It is two cultures clashing, with typical 40K explosive results. Space Marines genetically bred to be loyal to one another against the Emperor's right hand who expects absolute obedience without question.

Contrary to how some people are reading the story the Custodes does jump from reading a sentence to slaughtering Astartes.

The first three paragraphs of the story already tell you the Custodes has processed everything that is going on faster than anyone else on the ship.

‘Apprehend these traitors.’

The command was so shocking, so horribly incongruous that Knight-Centura Dessima could not immediately obey. She tried to reconcile what she had just learned, what it meant, with the order Shield-Captain Tyvar had given.

The entire bridge crew of the Lux-Imperatus shared a moment of frozen horror as they stared at the holo-projection floating in the air before them.

The humans, include the Sister of Silence commander, are all still trying to process what they are seeing and the Custodes has already read, processed, formulated a plan of action, and begun executing it.

And the Astartes are ahead of the humans and starting some unknown action. But Shield-Captain Tyvar know they will be and is already heading them off at the pass. He doesn't know if they are turning around to talk or going for their weapons, but he's taking no chances and levels his Guardian Spear.

So now we go into a back an forth. The Astartes making a case for "proven heretics" and the Shield-Captain first telling them what is going to happen to them, and then giving them a rare-second chance to comply with his directives complete with reminding them he is being lenient to them.

And does the Captain follow his orders? Do the Astartes comply? They do not. The sit there in a silent stalemate until Captain's failure to lead allows one of his battle brothers to widen the little rebellion against orders.

Well, Tyvar asked twice. Now he punctuates with force. Unfortunately, Astartes are Astartes and instead of responding like Guardsmen do when a Commissar performs a Summary Execution, the Astartes fight back and go rogue as a double-strength company.

Nothing left to do but kill all the Astartes.

Could this have been prevented? Sure. The Astartes could have surrendered and hoped an investigation absolved them from the crimes of their brethren. But that is not the path they choose to walk.

It's very simple.
Custard: "Disarm!"
SPUSS MAUREENS!!!: "Herp derp nerp nerp!"
Custard: "so you have chosen... Death..."

Entirely the fault of fanboys precious new Tonka Toy boys

@alextroy, your first line of the quote gives away exactly how the Astartes are going to be treated

Apprehend these traitors

There is only one punishment for this in the Imperium. Death. The Custodes had just pronounced a death sentence on the Astartes, of course they're going to refuse.

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
The Custodes had just pronounced a death sentence on the Astartes, of course they're going to refuse.

Which proves that they are, in fact, traitors.

The Imperium is not a 21st century liberal democracy where you have a constitutional right to due process and are considered innocent until proven guilty. A Custodes speaks and acts with the Emperor's own authority. To fail to follow his orders, no matter how 'unfair' they might seem, is treason by definition. As far as Imperial Law is concerned, the only correct course of action for Gerion and his men is to throw down their weapons and surrender immediately. They might be given a chance to plead their case once they are safely in custody, and they might ultimately be let off with a penitent crusade if it is determined they genuinely are not tainted in any way. But they have no legal right to such consideration. Tyvar's command was a test, and it is one Gerion failed. The Imperium is more important than any individual, even an Astartes. Losing 200 Marines is a better outcome than risking even the slightest chance that those 200 Marines might join the Enemy (or might have already).

It's also possible that Tyvar knew Gerion and his men well enough after spending months together in transit to determine that there was no realistic possibility of resolving this situation peacefully, and therefore decided that provoking them to violence on his terms was the best course of action. And, come on, Gerion's reaction to being accused of treason is basically to shout, "I'm not a traitor, you're the traitor!" at a frigging Custodes. Tyvar's not the moron here.

I'll also note that being corrupted through your geneseed, or even just by wearing the same heraldry as a Chapter that has turned traitor, is not some outlandish, wrong-headed idea in the 40K setting. Geneseed is a combination of science and literal sorcery. Anything connected to the Warp can ripple both forward and backward through time thanks to the timeless nature of that realm. If a Custodes thinks a Chapter embracing Chaos might taint some new recruits even if they haven't come into physical contact with their traitor brethren yet, I am willing to defer to his judgement. It is totally plausible within the 40K setting that a Chapter making a pact with the Dark Gods might damn every Astartes with the same geneseed, or the same heraldry, or who feels a bond of brotherhood to that Chapter.

John Prins wrote:Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.

Yes, to their *fellow* Space Marines. These Greyshields weren't part of the other Chapter yet though, which is why the situation falls flat for me.

Again, had it been "these Marines had been part of the Chapter, and had gone on a centuries long Crusade and returned to see their home in peril", I'd totally buy it. But are we saying now that Greyshields who's ONLY connection to their prospective fosters is geneseed which every single Greyshield possesses is corrupt?
Basically, both Gerion and Tyvar act like they've been part of the Chapter already. Gerion acts like these Marines he's never met are worth disobeying orders from someone he's presumably known since transit began, and Tyvar acts like there's any possible way these completely unrelated Space Marines could be affected by the events below. Honestly, I prefer the theories that Tyvar *knows* the Marines are completely innocent, but wants to abuse his authority to vent his anti-Space Marine sentiments he's harboured since the Heresy by killing them.

The bad writing here is that the Space Marine didn't surrender immediately, without hesitation and order his battle brothers to do the same. Not the idea that the Custodes would want the marines locked down immediately on the off chance the 200 supersoldiers might turn on them. Because Space Marines are loyal to their battle brothers to the absurd degree (see above).

Yeah, agreed. Neither character's reaction make internal sense - the Custodes are smart enough (or should be) to know that there's no possible way what affected the Drakes could possible have reached the Greyshields, and the Greyshields getting all defensive about a Chapter they've *never met* and the only knowledge they have of them is that they're traitors similarly doesn't sit well.
Literally, if they hadn't been Greyshields, I'd have loved the story.

Duskweaver wrote:I'll also note that being corrupted through your geneseed, or even just by wearing the same heraldry as a Chapter that has turned traitor, is not some outlandish, wrong-headed idea in the 40K setting. Geneseed is a combination of science and literal sorcery. Anything connected to the Warp can ripple both forward and backward through time thanks to the timeless nature of that realm. If a Custodes thinks a Chapter embracing Chaos might taint some new recruits even if they haven't come into physical contact with their traitor brethren yet, I am willing to defer to his judgement. It is totally plausible within the 40K setting that a Chapter making a pact with the Dark Gods might damn every Astartes with the same geneseed, or the same heraldry, or who feels a bond of brotherhood to that Chapter.

Potentially, but by that logic, if an Ultramarine-successor goes renegade, why don't the Custodes kill everyone with Ultramarines geneseed?
Don't forget, these are Greyshields. They have some of the cleanest, purest, and as close-to-source geneseed. Whatever their primogenitor was, the Greyshields coming to reinforce the Drakes are probably closer to the original geneseed than the Drakes are. Similarly, if those Greyshields are tainted, surely *every* Primaris Marines from that Primarch must then be tainted? Tyvar's action here essentially sets the precedent of "all Space Marines with X geneseed much be traitors".
Basically, unless the "corruption" only affects those of Brazen Drakes heraldry, why would the Greyshields be guilty? And, furthermore, we don't even know what heraldry these Greyshields have! We don't know if they're still in their Greyshield colours (being that of their Legion colours, with the grey chevron), or if they've prematurely adopted the Brazen Drake colours. I'd personally say, because they keep referring to them as 'Greyshields' that they're still in Greyshield colours.

So, without implying that every Primaris Marine on that genetic lineage is tainted, how are these Marines corrupted?


(Note: I'm not complaining about Tyvar being trigger-happy when the Marines defy his orders. I'm more talking about why he issued those orders in the first place).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

John Prins wrote:Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.

Yes, to their *fellow* Space Marines. These Greyshields weren't part of the other Chapter yet though, which is why the situation falls flat for me.

But they were part of the chapter. They wore the livery. They were referred to as Brazen Drakes in the story (as well as being referred to as Greyshields, I'll admit). They've had years of warp travel to think of themselves as such. They IMMEDIATELY leap to the chapter's defense with their words (and disobedience to direct orders).

Certainly the Custodes could have been more diplomatic about the whole thing, but he decided to not take chances, given he was on the bridge of a starship with several Space Marines. And he was right, because the space marines didn't stand down and surrender.

"I'm going to resist arrest because I'm innocent." doesn't work in the real world either.

 John Prins wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

John Prins wrote:Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.

Yes, to their *fellow* Space Marines. These Greyshields weren't part of the other Chapter yet though, which is why the situation falls flat for me.

But they were part of the chapter. They wore the livery. They were referred to as Brazen Drakes in the story (as well as being referred to as Greyshields, I'll admit). They've had years of warp travel to think of themselves as such. They IMMEDIATELY leap to the chapter's defense with their words (and disobedience to direct orders).

Certainly the Custodes could have been more diplomatic about the whole thing, but he decided to not take chances, given he was on the bridge of a starship with several Space Marines. And he was right, because the space marines didn't stand down and surrender.

"I'm going to resist arrest because I'm innocent." doesn't work in the real world either.

In the real world you aren't going to die as a result of being arrested. Real world people don't say "people in your companies american offices were stealing so we're going to go ahead and shoot all of you just in case you were in on it."

Marines might be traitors here but they aren't really in the wrong either.

Welcome to the 41st Millennium, where life is cheap and obedience is absolute on pain of death.

John Prins wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

John Prins wrote:Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.

Yes, to their *fellow* Space Marines. These Greyshields weren't part of the other Chapter yet though, which is why the situation falls flat for me.

But they were part of the chapter. They wore the livery.

Did they wear the livery? *Were* they part of the Chapter? I don't see how Space Marines who have never met their Chapter can be counted as "part of the Chapter".

They were referred to as Brazen Drakes in the story (as well as being referred to as Greyshields, I'll admit).

Likely for prose reasons, to distinguish the Marines and avoid saying 'Greyshield' all the time.

They've had years of warp travel to think of themselves as such.

With no actual understanding of their host Chapter's culture? They've also had years to get to know the Custodes and develop bonds with them.

They IMMEDIATELY leap to the chapter's defense with their words (and disobedience to direct orders).

Yeah - I think that's inappropriate from them, as they're Greyshields. Again, had they not been Greyshields, I'd completely understand it, but with them being Greyshields, they're closer to being a whole other Chapter than they are to being Brazen Drakes, IMO.

Certainly the Custodes could have been more diplomatic about the whole thing, but he decided to not take chances, given he was on the bridge of a starship with several Space Marines. And he was right, because the space marines didn't stand down and surrender.

Yes, the Marines didn't surrender, which I think was *also* out of character for what I believe the situation was. Basically, the Custodian shouldn't have accused the Greyshields (who have never had any contact with this Chapter) of anything, and the Greyshields, having not had any contact with the Chapter, shouldn't have any particular desire to aid a Chapter that, as far as they know, are totally evil.

"I'm going to resist arrest because I'm innocent." doesn't work in the real world either.

In the real world, you're not arresting someone because the someone in the company they were *about* to be hired by broke the law, and you're likely not going to kill that person when you arrest them either.

They weren't Brazen Drakes. They were Greyshields. If the treachery of the actual Brazen Drakes is enough to incriminate those merely on the same bloodline, then by that logic, practically every Chapter should be considered corrupt, as members of every genetic group have fallen to Chaos.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If the treachery of the actual Brazen Drakes is enough to incriminate those merely on the same bloodline, then by that logic, practically every Chapter should be considered corrupt, as members of every genetic group have fallen to Chaos.

To be fair, that is not at all an unheard of viewpoint within the 40k universe.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If the treachery of the actual Brazen Drakes is enough to incriminate those merely on the same bloodline, then by that logic, practically every Chapter should be considered corrupt, as members of every genetic group have fallen to Chaos.

To be fair, that is not at all an unheard of viewpoint within the 40k universe.

Thats the viewpoint most Custodes have... they hate space marines in a general sense.

I mean they have a red button that would destroy the Phalanx above Terra and the Imperial Fists, and they would have no remorse or second toughts about using it.

 Galas wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If the treachery of the actual Brazen Drakes is enough to incriminate those merely on the same bloodline, then by that logic, practically every Chapter should be considered corrupt, as members of every genetic group have fallen to Chaos.

To be fair, that is not at all an unheard of viewpoint within the 40k universe.

Thats the viewpoint most Custodes have... they hate space marines in a general sense.

I mean they have a red button that would destroy the Phalanx above Terra and the Imperial Fists, and they would have no remorse or second toughts about using it.

Why do they have that?

Since then, repairs have been under way to restore Phalanx to its full functionality, and to purify those zones of the voidcraft deemed tainted by the touch of Chaos. Amidst the endless bustle, the toing and froing of gene-bulked work gangs, and the interminable rites of the Adeptus Ministorum, the Adeptus Custodes have had little difficulty seeding agents onto the craft.

Hidden in plain sight, these intruders keep careful watch over what they view as a dangerously potent Adeptus Astartes war engine, and stand ready to take whatever action they must. To the Custodians, even the most loyal Space Marine Chapters will always be potential Traitors. It is their duty never to forgive, nor forget, what trust in the Primarchs led to during the Heresy. Thus, were Phalanx ever to direct its guns towards the Imperial Palace, the Custodians would enact veiled protocols that would see it scuttled before it could fire a shot.

After the fall of Cadia the adeptus custodes offered "help" to repair the phalanx to the imperial fists. In the proceed they did what I quoted.

Wooooooow. They really suck even by the standards of the Imperium.

Adeptus Custodes REALLY hate space marines. I mean, they killed the Thunder Warriors and would have done the same to Space Marines if not for the War on the Webway.

pm713 wrote:
Wooooooow. They really suck even by the standards of the Imperium.

Well they did gleefully slaughter the forces that helped them secure Tera during the Unification Wars.

Might I ask what book that excerpt is from Galas?

 Galas wrote:
Adeptus Custodes REALLY hate space marines. I mean, they killed the Thunder Warriors and would have done the same to Space Marines if not for the War on the Webway.

Kind of silly considering that the roots of heresy came from the Emperor being dumb, the marines that are still around are the ones who stayed loyal and if anything they're making marines more likely to go against them. Along with everyone else...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Wooooooow. They really suck even by the standards of the Imperium.

Well they did gleefully slaughter the forces that helped them secure Tera during the Unification Wars.

Might I ask what book that excerpt is from Galas?

Codex Adeptus Custodes page 28

pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Adeptus Custodes REALLY hate space marines. I mean, they killed the Thunder Warriors and would have done the same to Space Marines if not for the War on the Webway.

Kind of silly considering that the roots of heresy came from the Emperor being dumb, the marines that are still around are the ones who stayed loyal and if anything they're making marines more likely to go against them. Along with everyone else...

The Heresy has a lot more sense and makes the Emperor less of a fool if you take as true what that character said in that recent novel I can't remember, that it was all planned. Because the Emperor conquered the stars for humanity, not for the space marines. They were nothing more than thunder warriors with a bigger purpose.

Yeah, the Emperor might have kept a couple of the more easily controlled legions around, but most of them would have been deleted just like the Thunder Warriors after the Crusade was over. No way would he have kept legions like the Night Lords and World Eaters around. Better to declare them as accidents and monsters and dispose of them after they'd done the dirty work he'd created them for.

 AndrewC wrote:
The Custodes had just pronounced a death sentence on the Astartes, of course they're going to refuse.

Of course?
I mean, Sisters sometime even volunteer for becoming repentia.
The fact that marines refused to comply with a death sentence, in 40k logics, means they were traitor and the ones in the wrong here.

 Galas wrote:
Thats the viewpoint most Custodes have... they hate space marines in a general sense.

Which makes it even crazier that they stopped the Sisters from killing even more marines during the Reign of Blood, all to stop a madman that wasn't even corrupted by Chaos!!