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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
That's strange indeed. In Burden of Brotherhood we see Corian though, so he seems to be the right one. Wouldn't be the first time they got names mixed up, I think in the Beast arises series the chapter masters of some first founding chapters changed their names as well... Guess someone missed the briefing...

Ah, interesting! In the Brotherhood extract, the actual Chapter name is never disclosed, so we had no connection between the Astartes in Brotherhood and in Consequences until Retaliation. Interestingly enough, they're all written by separate authors. I'm suspecting that missed briefings may have been involved.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
That's strange indeed. In Burden of Brotherhood we see Corian though, so he seems to be the right one. Wouldn't be the first time they got names mixed up, I think in the Beast arises series the chapter masters of some first founding chapters changed their names as well... Guess someone missed the briefing...

Ah, interesting! In the Brotherhood extract, the actual Chapter name is never disclosed, so we had no connection between the Astartes in Brotherhood and in Consequences until Retaliation. Interestingly enough, they're all written by separate authors. I'm suspecting that missed briefings may have been involved.

In the news thread someone theorized that the other guy could be the chapter master before Corian and he might have had to be killed by their ritual because of their psychic abilities. And after that the new chapter master corian decided to go renegade. I found it to be plausible with the information we have, it's also not unheard of that the fleet from consequences is not up to date with information about the current chapter master.
I guess we still don't see the whole picture here. Interesting that we have 3 short stories about an unheard chapter that in my opinion is only there to get "worfed" in War of the spyder.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, if they'd literally removed the word Greyshield, I'd be all on board. It's the implication of 'they were only threatened because they were Greyshields' that I don't like. It's just feels a lot like forcing the word in, when it really didn't need to be. Had the Custodian threatened them because they were actually part of the Chapter, it would have made complete internally logical sense. Hell, even if the Custodian had threatened a completely DIFFERENT Chapter because he feels that Space Marines band together regardless of Chapter, it would have been interesting. It's the fact they seem to imply that the Greyshields are at fault simply because they're about to join the Chapter they've had no connection to that feels completely illogical, even for 40k. As I said, remove the word Greyshield, and the story becomes so much more coherent and interesting, IMO.

And in this you have missed missed that essential paranoid truth of the 41st Millennium. In our world the rampant paranoia, xenophobia, and callous disregard for life doesn't make sense. The idea that whole worlds will be condemned as irredeemably corrupt by exposure daemons is abhorrent to us. The concept that genetical-enchanced super-soldiers could have irrational attachment to people they've never met is ludicrous. And yet that is just another fact of life in Warhammer 40,000.

 nordsturmking wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
They're described specifically as "Brazen Drakes Greyshields". Gerion speaks of the Brazen Drakes on the planet as "brethren", "our comrades" and "my battle-brothers".

So I think you should stop trying to claim that these Greyshields have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes and can't possibly share their heresy.

They can but that's in the same way that the Grey Knights could decide to kill the Custodes off by blowing up Terra. It's theoretically possible but so unlikely you may as well call it impossible. They never met anyone on the planet, had no bad marks at all prior to someone trying to arrest them
for almost no reason and when they did go traitor against the custodes they were pushed into it so much they might be Thousand Sons.

How and why could the Greyknights blow up terra?

They have the button for the doomsday weapon Vulkan put there in case the demons got in through the throne. As to why they could just go with corruption, acceptable losses, drama etc.

 alextroy wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, if they'd literally removed the word Greyshield, I'd be all on board. It's the implication of 'they were only threatened because they were Greyshields' that I don't like. It's just feels a lot like forcing the word in, when it really didn't need to be. Had the Custodian threatened them because they were actually part of the Chapter, it would have made complete internally logical sense. Hell, even if the Custodian had threatened a completely DIFFERENT Chapter because he feels that Space Marines band together regardless of Chapter, it would have been interesting. It's the fact they seem to imply that the Greyshields are at fault simply because they're about to join the Chapter they've had no connection to that feels completely illogical, even for 40k. As I said, remove the word Greyshield, and the story becomes so much more coherent and interesting, IMO.

And in this you have missed missed that essential paranoid truth of the 41st Millennium.

No, I think you've missed the point of my argument.

In our world the rampant paranoia, xenophobia, and callous disregard for life doesn't make sense. The idea that whole worlds will be condemned as irredeemably corrupt by exposure daemons is abhorrent to us.

Agreed. That's part of the established logic of 40k. It doesn't mean that 40k is devoid of logic, only that it works on different logical principles. I didn't deny that.

What you've taken that to mean is that 40k has a total absence of internal logic, which simply isn't the case.

The concept that genetical-enchanced super-soldiers could have irrational attachment to people they've never met is ludicrous. And yet that is just another fact of life in Warhammer 40,000.

No, it's not. Again, you're missing what I'm actually arguing against here.

A Space Marine Chapter feeling irrationally attached? Possible, purely out of humanitarianism (rare, but possible). What I'm arguing against is the Custodian accusing the Greyshields (which shouldn't be Greyshields) of being in league with the traitors. What grounds does that Custodian have that they're in league, or even to suspect them? And yes, I know someone's going to say "bbbut this is 40k, people are irrational and evidence isn't needed" - sure, evidence isn't needed in the trial, but there needs to be a *reason* to have their suspicions aroused in the first place? Otherwise, where's my story about a Custodian killing two companies of Marines because a Chapter halfway across the galaxy turned traitor, or outright killing Marines after no provocation because "40k doesn't need logic".

There is either one of two things wrong about the story, IMO. It is either that the Marines shouldn't be Greyshields; or that the Custodian should have had no specific reason to suspect the Marines who have had no more connection to the Drakes than any other Chapter.

My fixes to keep the story moving in the same direction:
- Have the Marines not be Greyshields
- Have the Marines be the first to leap to the aid of the traitor Chapter, and have the Custodian react to their action
Either of those two things would help the story fit so much better into the internal logic.

Well, obviously both the author and GW disagree with you. They believe the Cusdotes actions were warranted by the logic of the Imperium of the 41st Millennium. They did write and publish it that way.

@ Sgt_Smudge: First of: I agree with you, that the story would have been less "bumpy" if they had not been Greyshields. Just to make clear we are on the same page on that.

But, I personally (again: opinion, not fact) think it even makes kind of sense with them beeing Greyshields if the Custodes thought a specific way:
As others have mentioned (and that is at least what I picked up from Space Marine lore, but I'm not that deep into it) Space Marines are/where specifically designed, "built", trained and indoctrinated to be supersoldiers with unwavering loyalty towards the Emperor, the Imperium, their Chapter and their Battlebrothers (not neccessarily in that order). I assume that said indoctrination must already have started during the transit to deliver those supersoldiers in a "ready to use" state to their new chapter. They also should have no fear of death or at least do not let that interfere with their ability to follow orders. Also said loyalty includes obedience to orders from higher ranking officials representing the Imperium. The Imperium must rely on Space Marines to follow an order even if it means certain death - they expect that of their lowest penal soldiers, so it should be a no-brainer for their angels of death.

Now we have the moment the Custodes sees that their parent chapter (to which they never had contact) is declared traitor. As he has 200 trained and armed supersoldiers on bord he HAS to be 100% sure where their loyalties lie, even under maximum pressure, where their loyalties might conflict with each other. It would be negligence of his duty to not assure that the process of creation, training and indoctrination succeeded in creating supersoldiers whose first loyalty lies with the Imperium, or at least more with the Imperium than with some strangers they never met but where indoctrinated to see as brothers. On top of that he has to know it fast.

So his course of action is to put them under maximal pressure and see how they react. Fully knowing (it was not stated in the story, that is only my interpretation) that they most likely could not have been in to the revolt he still calls them traitors and orders them to surrender, even though they know that might be their death sentence. In a way he tests
1. if they would accept an order by a representative of the Imperium even if it means death
2. if they feel in any way related/loyal to the traitors down on the planet
3. Which degree of obedience they generally have

possible outcomes would include:
1. surrendering and following orders without any talk back or questioning => they are obedient and loyal
2. surrendering but argueing that their battlebrothers might be innocent => He might still be unsure of their loyalties if really put to the test, but they are obedient at least. The careful course of action would be not to rely on them when fighting their former chapter, but they seem to still be a functional tool for the Imperium on another front.
3. they say that they have no ties whatsoever with the traitors down there and that those should be exterminated - but refuse to surrender their weapons => while their loyalty seems to be ok, they seem to not accept him as superior and/or have an obedience problem.
4. They refuse to surrender and argue in favor of the battlebrothers they never met (but where indoctrinated to see as brothers) => they show no obedience and a problematic ranking of their loyalties
5. they immediatly start to attack => they were definitly traitors.

As they chose 4., the shield captain has to consider that his supersoldiers are "defect". But as a sensible Imperial Official he does not want to "waste" the precious recource 200 Primaris are. So he asks a second time, this time warning that he will not ask again. It is a slight shift of tone but an important one as this time instead of saying "you are under arrest as traitors, surrender until we decide what to do with you" he threatens an immediate response. In a way it's the difference between saying "lay down your weapon, you are under arrest" and "lay down your weapon or I shoot you death. 3... 2....1..."
=> if they would have surrendered then the shield captain would still have to consider that he had to apply an immediate (in contrast to a possible future) death threat before they followed orders, putting their loyalty towards the Imperium still in question.
Instead they failed again, with the known consequences.


All that is my personal interpretation but I think Tyvar accusing them that harshly makes a lot of sense when one keeps in mind that he has to trust them in the battles to come that they definitly would not hesitate to kill all their battlebrothers they were indoctrinated to see as family when ordered to do so by the Imperium - in his view ultimatly represented by himself. A truly perfect loyal and obedient supersoldier would not have failed both tests and then Tyvar could have decided further if he wants to use them against the brazen beasts or at least keep them for another battle or a redemption crusade.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There is either one of two things wrong about the story, IMO. It is either that the Marines shouldn't be Greyshields; or that the Custodian should have had no specific reason to suspect the Marines who have had no more connection to the Drakes than any other Chapter.
My fixes to keep the story moving in the same direction:
- Have the Marines not be Greyshields
- Have the Marines be the first to leap to the aid of the traitor Chapter, and have the Custodian react to their action
Either of those two things would help the story fit so much better into the internal logic.

Its been discussed ad nauseam but:

1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.
2. The story specifically notes that the Custodian reacted faster than anyone on the bridge could have reacted.

To tie my two points together - Custodes think all Marines will go traitor at some point. Its in the codex Galas quoted. He's probably been watching the Marines waiting for them to show some kind of sign and bam they arrive at the planet and suspicions confirmed the Marines are traitors. He reacted faster than the Marine because he's a Custodes. The outcome is what it is.

Also Games Workshop writes the fluff for this entire universe. You are literally arguing against Stan Lee on if Spider Man could have done that thing you didn't think he should have done.

I suppose it's nice that we don't have to have faith in the technological advance that Primaris represent.

It fits in with the 40k grimdark theme quite well. There may be one heretic in a crowd of 10,000 people? KILL THEM ALL!

Then wonder why people are resentful, afraid and hostile to your authority and you have to repress them even harder, leading to more heresy...

In a short story in dark heresy, I think, there was something about a planet where stoneworkers were subject to such terrible conditions they were literally being worked to death and finally organized into a sort of union to demand livable conditions.

The hero of the story gt a bunch of fanatics to help him undermine some massive stone statues (Think statue of liberty or bigger) and rig them with explosives.

When the marching amry of stone workers came to deman better, I.E. livable, working conditions thy fantics detonated the charges, collapsed the statues on the workers and crushed them.

Yeah, then wonder why you don't have enough stoneworkers left to get the work you need done, genjius.

The irony is that the imperium's harsh repression and brutal tyranny just keeps making more 'heretics', resulting in them needing to increase the oppression, leading to more heretics.

At times I just imagine Alpha Legionaries complaining that the imperium makes it too easy for them to create rebellion and uprisings, it's jut no challenge for them when you're dealing with an organization like that.

But that's the overall 40k tone. And this story fits it to the proverbial "T".

Jjohnso11 wrote:Its been discussed ad nauseam but:

1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.
2. The story specifically notes that the Custodian reacted faster than anyone on the bridge could have reacted.

To tie my two points together - Custodes think all Marines will go traitor at some point. Its in the codex Galas quoted.

So why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines for when their successors haven't turned traitor? Or rather, threatened all the Ultramarines with heresy for it?

Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant. But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.

He's probably been watching the Marines waiting for them to show some kind of sign and bam they arrive at the planet and suspicions confirmed the Marines are traitors.

But that would be a fault with the Greyshields, which would be completely separate from the Brazen Drakes? If he had a problem with the Greyshields, he shouldn't have needed proof from the Brazen Drakes, because they're simply not related!

He reacted faster than the Marine because he's a Custodes. The outcome is what it is.

I don't have an issue with him reacting faster. My issue is that he acts at all, because he should have no reason to suspect that Greyshields (which should have literally no attachment to their hosts) could be implicated in any of this.

Also Games Workshop writes the fluff for this entire universe. You are literally arguing against Stan Lee on if Spider Man could have done that thing you didn't think he should have done.

Not all comics are written equal, let along all Games Workshop stuff.

Matt Swain wrote:It fits in with the 40k grimdark theme quite well. There may be one heretic in a crowd of 10,000 people? KILL THEM ALL!

Yes, but they need a suspected heretic first. The Greyshields should have been above suspicion as they had nothing to do with the Drakes.

Otherwise, why aren't the Ultramarines exterminated every time one of their successors turns traitor?

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.

That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?

Now the Custodes just look really lazy and neglectful of their duties!

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Also Games Workshop writes the fluff for this entire universe. You are literally arguing against Stan Lee on if Spider Man could have done that thing you didn't think he should have done.

I agree - Goto's works are all free of issues! After all, they're GW publications, so you can't argue against them...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Matt Swain wrote:It fits in with the 40k grimdark theme quite well. There may be one heretic in a crowd of 10,000 people? KILL THEM ALL!

Yes, but they need a suspected heretic first. The Greyshields should have been above suspicion as they had nothing to do with the Drakes.

This is the Imperium of Man. Everyone is suspect.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines for when their successors haven't turned traitor? Or rather, threatened all the Ultramarines with heresy for it?

Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant.

But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.
But that would be a fault with the Greyshields, which would be completely separate from the Brazen Drakes? If he had a problem with the Greyshields, he shouldn't have needed proof from the Brazen Drakes, because they're simply not related!
I don't have an issue with him reacting faster. My issue is that he acts at all, because he should have no reason to suspect that Greyshields (which should have literally no attachment to their hosts) could be implicated in any of this.

If you replaced Brazen Drakes Greyshields with Ultramarines I'm sure the Custodes would have done the same thing. The Horus Heresy did happen- Custodes were/are assumed to be fighting Legions of Traitor Space Marines. Its interesting you keep removing Brazen Drakes from Greyshields to forge the narrative that they aren't from the same chapter. As was already pointed out the Brazen Drakes Greyshields have personalized weapons and know their Chapter. I'm sure they could name their Chapter Master and are not complete strangers. He should have reacted. He's on a ship full of Space Marines from a Chapter that is confirmed to be traitors. Look how quickly he sent out the message to his Company about fighting the Custodes. If he was innocent he wouldn't have sent that message. If you read the Horus Heresy you'll see how quickly ENTIRE LEGIONS of Space Marines turned traitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.

That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?

Now the Custodes just look really lazy and neglectful of their duties!

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Also Games Workshop writes the fluff for this entire universe. You are literally arguing against Stan Lee on if Spider Man could have done that thing you didn't think he should have done.

I agree - Goto's works are all free of issues! After all, they're GW publications, so you can't argue against them...

I'll reiterate - replace Brazen Drakes with any of the chapters you just said and the Custodes would have killed everyone on that bridge in exactly the same way. The Custodes don't have the man power or the authority to declare war on those Chapters but if the opportunity came and they received word that there was a traitor and it appeared the chapter was going to help them they would kill everyone they could.

@ Sgt. Smudge:
May I ask what your opinion on my last post would be?

Regarding your analogy to the Ultramarines there are big differences in my opinion:

1. The Brazen Beasts are the Greyshields chapter. Even if they never met I assume (my opinion) that some kind of loyalty indoctrination must already have been performed so that they can be used upon arrival. The Ultramarines on the other hand are not indoctrinated towards loyalty to other chapters.
2. The Greyshields on board are an immediate problem. IF their loyalty should be questioned the Custodes has to act NOW. Or in other terms if he suspect them he should put them to the test (as mentioned in my last post) or detain them until the immediate threat is over and a final decisions can be made.
On the contrary if an UM successor goes renegade, the original Ums are likely far away, at least not on a ship where a Custodes has the authority and responsibility.
3. The UM have a millenia long battle- and loyalty-record, the 200 Primaris don't (and their intended battlebrothers obviously neither.)
4. IF the Custodes called them traitors knowing they were innocent as a test OR if he is just a d*** towards Marines: he will likely get away without consequences calling some odd 200 Greyshields traitors, but demanding the annihilation of a living Primarchs own founding chapter with a millenia long battlerecord and their own pocket empire might have consequences

Lord Damocles wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.

That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?

Now the Custodes just look really lazy and neglectful of their duties!

Exactly! If the Imperium is so illogical and so vehement when it comes to purging heresy that they will kill Marines that have no connection beyond geneseed, why haven't all Space Marines barring the Grey Knights been wiped out?

alextroy wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Matt Swain wrote:It fits in with the 40k grimdark theme quite well. There may be one heretic in a crowd of 10,000 people? KILL THEM ALL!

Yes, but they need a suspected heretic first. The Greyshields should have been above suspicion as they had nothing to do with the Drakes.

This is the Imperium of Man. Everyone is suspect.

If everyone is suspect, why isn't everyone dead then?
If the Imperium is happy to kill 10,000 people to kill a suspect, why don't they just wipe out everyone? There's traitor Cadians out there. Why haven't all Cadian regiments been exterminated? There's definitely treacherous Mechanicum personnel. Why haven't the Imperium wiped out Stygies? There's certainly been Marines from even First Founding Chapters who have fallen traitor - why haven't they been wiped out?

Jjohnso11 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines for when their successors haven't turned traitor? Or rather, threatened all the Ultramarines with heresy for it?

Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant.

But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.
But that would be a fault with the Greyshields, which would be completely separate from the Brazen Drakes? If he had a problem with the Greyshields, he shouldn't have needed proof from the Brazen Drakes, because they're simply not related!
I don't have an issue with him reacting faster. My issue is that he acts at all, because he should have no reason to suspect that Greyshields (which should have literally no attachment to their hosts) could be implicated in any of this.

If you replaced Brazen Drakes Greyshields with Ultramarines I'm sure the Custodes would have done the same thing.

You're telling me that if the Ultramarines and Custodes were travelling together, and found a completely unrelated Chapter with no established ties to the Ultramarines had turned traitor, the Custodes would immediately point weapons at the Ultramarines and demand their surrender, before the Ultramarines could even say or do anything?

I heavily doubt that has ever happened, so no, I disagree with that.

The Horus Heresy did happen- Custodes were/are assumed to be fighting Legions of Traitor Space Marines. Its interesting you keep removing Brazen Drakes from Greyshields to forge the narrative that they aren't from the same chapter. As was already pointed out the Brazen Drakes Greyshields have personalized weapons and know their Chapter.

That's my point! The way they're written, the way the Custodes react to them - they don't sound like they're Greyshields! Think - doesn't it make WAY more sense that this is a author error, and they mistakenly called them Greyshields?

I'm only calling them Greyshields because that's what the story does, but when you break down what's going on, how and why would Greyshields have personalised weapons and gifts from a Chapter that they've outright never met? Doesn't it logically make so much more sense this is an author error, one that, if corrected, would make the entire story make so much more sense?

Because then, you'd have WAY more reason for the Custodes flipping out - the Marines they're travelling with have actually HAD contact with the traitor Chapter, this is exactly the same thing that happened with the Word Bearers cohort of Custodians, and they're working on more evidence than just "you have the same Primarch". And the Marines on board the ship could still well be innocent, but it makes the whole situation so much better written, because both factions have more evidence and emotion behind them.

For the Custodian, this is exactly something that's happened before. They know the Marines have had plenty of time to be corrupted, and are officially part of the traitor Chapter. There's more than just a shared Primarch to link the two forces.
For the Marines, those are ACTUAL brothers they've lived, fought and died alongside which the Custodes are condemning, not some far off cousins who they've never met.

The characters become so much more interesting and dynamic when you assume that 'Greyshield' is an error, and remove the word.

He's on a ship full of Space Marines from a Chapter that is confirmed to be traitors.

No, he's not. He's on a ship full of Space Marines who are about to join, for the first time with a traitor Chapter. The Marines on that ship shouldn't be Greyshields and Brazen Drakes at the same time. That seems completely incongruous with what we've been shown about Greyshields and their hosts.

Look how quickly he sent out the message to his Company about fighting the Custodes. If he was innocent he wouldn't have sent that message.

He only sent the message because of the Custodian's actions. If the Custodian hadn't accused them of corruption in the first place (and as has been noted, he acted before anyone else could, so it's not like he was reacting to someone else's motion), then the Greyshields (if they truly are Greyshields) wouldn't have done anything.

Sure, when they start going on about "those are our brothers down there!", the Custodian should have massive red flags, but Greyshields shouldn't be that attached to Marines they've never met!

If you read the Horus Heresy you'll see how quickly ENTIRE LEGIONS of Space Marines turned traitor.

Yes, but the Legions were connected by far more than just the same geneseed. They shared the same leader, they shared the same training and doctrines, they shared the same history. They fell together because they WERE together, because they all venerated their Primarchs and commanders more than the Emperor, so when those figures fell, they all did. Greyshields don't have this! The Brazen Drakes seem to have fallen out of their refusal to hide their genetic flaw (which the Greyshields shouldn't either have, as their geneseed is from purer stock closer to the Legion/First Founding standard - and as no First Founder has the flaw of the Brazen Drakes, that means their issue is tied to their specific strain, which the Greyshields wouldn't have been bred from), and from their love for their Chapter Master (who hasn't even accepted Greyshield reinforcement yet, because that's why the Custodes were there: to enforce 'Cawl's Miracle'.). Under the circumstances we're given, the Custodes would have no reason to suspect beyond any normal means that the Greyshields were corrupted, and it's only through his antagonism of them that any action is even taken.

I'll reiterate - replace Brazen Drakes with any of the chapters you just said and the Custodes would have killed everyone on that bridge in exactly the same way. The Custodes don't have the man power or the authority to declare war on those Chapters but if the opportunity came and they received word that there was a traitor and it appeared the chapter was going to help them they would kill everyone they could.

No, they wouldn't.
Firstly, the Greyshields hadn't made any response to protecting the Brazen Drakes until after the Custodian held them at gunpoint. There was no "appearance the Chapter was going to help them" until after the Custodian took action.
Secondly, Custodians don't just wipe out whole Companies of Space Marines because unrelated Chapters turn traitor. They're suspicious of Space Marines, true, but there's been no case of a Custodian killing another Marine because one from a completely unrelated Chapter turned traitor. Otherwise, why haven't we seen scores of Chapters wiped out because single Marines from neighbouring Chapters fell to Chaos? Why wasn't every Marine who sided with Huron in the Badab War put to death?

Pyroalchi wrote:@ Sgt. Smudge:
May I ask what your opinion on my last post would be?

My apologies, I must have missed it.

Regarding your analogy to the Ultramarines there are big differences in my opinion:

1. The Brazen Beasts are the Greyshields chapter. Even if they never met I assume (my opinion) that some kind of loyalty indoctrination must already have been performed so that they can be used upon arrival. The Ultramarines on the other hand are not indoctrinated towards loyalty to other chapters.

That's incongruous with our depictions of Greyshields. Ultramarine Greyshields require indoctrination upon arrival and were assigned to Chaplains to get them accustomed to their new Chapter. Similarly, Flesh Tearers Greyshields were not of the same temperament as their hosts.
Now, home-grown Primaris (aka, non-Greyshields) wouldn't have this issue, but Greyshields had a great degree of cultural barriers to overcome. They weren't indoctrinated prior to meeting - their only similarity was geneseed.

2. The Greyshields on board are an immediate problem. IF their loyalty should be questioned the Custodes has to act NOW. Or in other terms if he suspect them he should put them to the test (as mentioned in my last post) or detain them until the immediate threat is over and a final decisions can be made.
On the contrary if an UM successor goes renegade, the original Ums are likely far away, at least not on a ship where a Custodes has the authority and responsibility.

But that shouldn't mean the Ultramarines are still equally as guilty as these Greyshields? If we're to assume the Custodes will question/kill Marines whose only crime is *being related by geneseed*, why wouldn't they suspect and act upon the same circumstances and go to the Ultramarines and demand their surrender?

Otherwise, that just makes it sound like the Custodes are lazy.

3. The UM have a millenia long battle- and loyalty-record, the 200 Primaris don't (and their intended battlebrothers obviously neither.)

And? The Ultramarines also have Marines who've fallen to Chaos. They have entire successor Chapters who've fallen. They've had 10,000 years to become corrupted. These Greyshields have had around 100 years, quite likely serving with Guilliman himself or with an incredibly high-ranking official, possibly even a Custodes Shield-Captain, are made of superior genetic stock, have presumably had none of their number corrupted or even suspected of heresy, and have spent the last several months in close contact with the Custodes.
I'd trust the Greyshields to be more loyal than the Ultramarines, all things considered.

4. IF the Custodes called them traitors knowing they were innocent as a test OR if he is just a d*** towards Marines: he will likely get away without consequences calling some odd 200 Greyshields traitors, but demanding the annihilation of a living Primarchs own founding chapter with a millenia long battlerecord and their own pocket empire might have consequences

So really, it's not about the Custodes being right and sticking to their principles, it's being complete hypocrites who are just calling out Marines to dupe them into making a wrong move, and turning a blind eye to the big Chapters who would be equally as guilty?

Well, that does sound very irrational of them, so I guess that makes sense in come interpretations of the Imperium.

Have you considered, as I pointed out here:

that the whole business might be an intended provocation, knowing they *should* be innocent? Because functional (in a sense of loyal and obedient towards the imperium, represented here through the Custodes) Marines should - theorethically - not question the order, even if they are innocent?

And regarding the other points: It's just a really big stretch to compare the (maybe unjust) judgement over and elimination of 200 Greyshields of a later founding chapter to whole Regimentos of Imperial Guard (there should be at least dozends of millions of Cadians, maybe billions around) or a original founding chapter? It's just a completely different situation. If he had 100.000 Cadians in his holds and reason (as slim as it might be) to suspect they could be traitors the same reaction would be adequate FOR THESE 100.000. Not for all Cadians, but for all that pose an immediate threat for the fleet.
And Killing of 200 innocent Marines because their explicit chapter failed is (in my opinion, I have to admit) something completely different to holding a first founding chapter responsible for acts of their successor chapters. I know your argument is that the Greyshields had nothing more in common with the Brazen beasts than their geneseed, but their reaction and as someone else has mentioned the insignia on their weapons etc. imply otherwise.

Pyroalchi wrote:
Have you considered, as I pointed out here, that the whole business might be an intended provocation, knowing they *should* be innocent? Because functional (in a sense of loyal and obedient towards the imperium, represented here through the Custodes) Marines should - theorethically - not question the order, even if they are innocent?

Considering I've never seen it occur anywhere before, no. Custodes, nor really anyone for that matter, don't seem to go up to random people who they have no outstanding suspicions at all and demand their immediate surrender. If a Custodes is telling you to surrender, that is because he is accusing you of such, and presumably has a reason for it.

We don't even see Commissars do it, and they'd be the most likely candidate of them all for that kind of kangaroo justice.

And regarding the other points: It's just a really big stretch to compare the (maybe unjust) judgement over and elimination of 200 Greyshields of a later founding chapter to whole Regimentos of Imperial Guard (there should be at least dozends of millions of Cadians, maybe billions around) or a original founding chapter? It's just a completely different situation. If he had 100.000 Cadians in his holds and reason (as slim as it might be) to suspect they could be traitors the same reaction would be adequate FOR THESE 100.000. Not for all Cadians, but for all that pose an immediate threat for the fleet.

But a Chapter of rogue Astartes represents an immediate threat to the entire Imperium. That's why the Imperium is so zealous in it's eradication of heretics.

Again, if the reason for the Custodes killing these 200 unrelated Greyshields was "they don't trust Space Marines, and they think they're somehow involved in the corruption of a Chapter they've never met", then surely when a Space Marine Chapter outright has members fall to Chaos (which we know for a fact has happened to at least the Space Wolves and Raven Guard, and almost certainly to other First Founders), why don't we see the Custodes eradicate them for much closer connections? After all, I thought these Custodes were SUPER distrustful of all Space Marines, why would they care about killing First Founders?
And as for Guardsmen, as someone earlier stated, the Imperium is happy to kill 10,000 people if one of them *may* be a heretic. Killing off entire regiments of Cadians when so many fall to Chaos (they might be resistant, but they're not immune by any stretch) shouldn't be out of the question of the kind of leaps of logic Tyvar displays.

His ONLY link between the Greyshields and the Brazen Drakes that he can suspect them for are geneseed and both being Space Marines. That's it. They've never met, they're not indoctrinated, and they don't seem to have had any kind of contact - the Brazen Drakes haven't even accepted the Primaris as their own yet! So if those two tenuous links are enough to make him demand them surrender, then I think him exterminating soldiers that come from the same world and have proven heretics and traitors in their history would be completely in-character, no?

And Killing of 200 innocent Marines because their explicit chapter failed is (in my opinion, I have to admit) something completely different to holding a first founding chapter responsible for acts of their successor chapters.

Disagree. The Greyshields should have less in common with the Brazen Drakes than they do with Greyshields from completely different gene-pools.
The ONLY link between the main Chapter and them (if they were TRULY Greyshields) would be geneseed alone. That's less difference than there is between the Ultramarines and Genesis Chapter.
If the Custodian is happy to accuse a nearly-completely unrelated unit of Marines of corruption because another Chapter fell, what about a Chapter that's had millennia of contact and genetic heritage with a traitor Chapter? If that's enough reason to consign those Marines to death, then nearly all First Founders should have been long wiped out.

And remember - it's not like people haven't tried to wipe out First Founders for crimes that didn't even relate to internal corruption. They're not immune, especially not from the Custodes.

I know your argument is that the Greyshields had nothing more in common with the Brazen beasts than their geneseed, but their reaction and as someone else has mentioned the insignia on their weapons etc. imply otherwise.

Yes - it's almost like they're not written as Greyshields.

Seriously, what's so hard about maybe the author having made a blunder and mistakenly calling them Greyshields? I've explained how them not being Greyshields would make so much more sense in the story. I'm not saying the Custodian is being inconsistent entirely. I'm saying they're being inconsistent if the Marines he's attacking are Greyshields.

Space marines are only as ' smart' as their writers.

If their writers have a poor or no grasp of tactics, it will show in the marines' behaviour. If the writers have little to no understanding or desire to conform to the background, it will show in the marines and the writing. Ultimately it comes down the the writer and the editor/publisher.

Regard the entire GW/BL back catalogue as "fan-fiction" and it all becomes incredibly obvious.

There's some good fan-fiction, but there's an awful lot of bad fan-fiction, and the same rules apply in professional writing.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?

Realpolitik.
They cannot purge the ultramarine because they are afraid of the big G!!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?

Realpolitik.
They cannot purge the ultramarine because they are afraid of the big G!!

What about every other Chapter?

I'm sure the Custodes couldn't care less which chapter of space marines he was dealing with. The Chapter was declared traitors by the Inquisition. Nothing else mattered. The Inquisition is the Imperium's trusted agency for rooting out corruption. Upon reading the declaration, there were only two outcomes: immediate unconditional surrender to authority or death.

 alextroy wrote:
I'm sure the Custodes couldn't care less which chapter of space marines he was dealing with. The Chapter was declared traitors by the Inquisition. Nothing else mattered. The Inquisition is the Imperium's trusted agency for rooting out corruption. Upon reading the declaration, there were only two outcomes: immediate unconditional surrender to authority or death.

Fine - except the Greyshields weren't (or shouldn't) have been part of the Chapter. That's the point of contention here: the Greyshields weren't declared traitors. The Brazen Drakes were. Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.

You wouldn't arrest the Ultramarines because of an action of their successors, so why would you arrest Greyshields for the action of a Chapter which only shares basic geneseed with?

Now, what *would* have made sense is if those Marines on the ship weren't Greyshields. But that would be admitting that maybe the story had some errors in it.

I think the whole thing falls to this quote in a nutshell:

"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"

Some could afford the luxury of "benefit of the doubt" they cannot.

Personally I think they should have been treated the same as what is done to the penal legions: use them where they are the most effective and Blackshield them with Deathwatch.
They would "earn back" the resources expended on their creation and possibly atone for their lineage.

I think the story would benefit from more internal monologue to weigh things up. In the way I see it, these grey shields were ordered to fall in line with the chapter they were going to reinforce. When they discover the chapter has gone heretic, they aren't necessarily being told to lie down their weapons as traitors, but to see where loyalties lie. As far as the shield-captain was concerned, nobody could be trusted in the chapter as they were on the surface as the chapter was in civil war. Better to be rid of it than risk it. Had the grey shields obeyed, it's potentially possible that the original chapter would have been wiped and entirely replaced with primaris marines, as was the second mandate of the torchbearer fleets. Either reinforce the chapter, or make it anew if it is destroyed.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I'm sure the Custodes couldn't care less which chapter of space marines he was dealing with. The Chapter was declared traitors by the Inquisition. Nothing else mattered. The Inquisition is the Imperium's trusted agency for rooting out corruption. Upon reading the declaration, there were only two outcomes: immediate unconditional surrender to authority or death.

Fine - except the Greyshields weren't (or shouldn't) have been part of the Chapter. That's the point of contention here: the Greyshields weren't declared traitors. The Brazen Drakes were. Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.

You wouldn't arrest the Ultramarines because of an action of their successors, so why would you arrest Greyshields for the action of a Chapter which only shares basic geneseed with?

Now, what *would* have made sense is if those Marines on the ship weren't Greyshields. But that would be admitting that maybe the story had some errors in it.

You're stuck on the Company name and disregarding the purpose of the trip. Here is from the article:

Even among the fleets that ferry Primaris reinforcements across the Imperium to their Chapters, heresy can be found. For the fleet carrying the Brazen Drakes to meet their battle-brothers on Khassedur, this will have dire consequences for all…

Even if they have never met Space Marines are brainwashed during their training to ensure loyalty to their Chapter.

Out of honest lack of knowledge: is there any logical reason NOT to already start indoctrinating loyalty into the greyshields before they meet their chapter? I don't really see a lack of time and already loyal Greyshields would be ready to use, instead of first needing months or years of indoctrination. But I admit that I'm not deep into Space Marine lore, therefore the question

Jjohnso11 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I'm sure the Custodes couldn't care less which chapter of space marines he was dealing with. The Chapter was declared traitors by the Inquisition. Nothing else mattered. The Inquisition is the Imperium's trusted agency for rooting out corruption. Upon reading the declaration, there were only two outcomes: immediate unconditional surrender to authority or death.

Fine - except the Greyshields weren't (or shouldn't) have been part of the Chapter. That's the point of contention here: the Greyshields weren't declared traitors. The Brazen Drakes were. Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.

You wouldn't arrest the Ultramarines because of an action of their successors, so why would you arrest Greyshields for the action of a Chapter which only shares basic geneseed with?

Now, what *would* have made sense is if those Marines on the ship weren't Greyshields. But that would be admitting that maybe the story had some errors in it.

You're stuck on the Company name and disregarding the purpose of the trip. Here is from the article:

Even among the fleets that ferry Primaris reinforcements across the Imperium to their Chapters, heresy can be found. For the fleet carrying the Brazen Drakes to meet their battle-brothers on Khassedur, this will have dire consequences for all…

Even if they have never met Space Marines are brainwashed during their training to ensure loyalty to their Chapter.

Are they? Brainwashed to ensure loyalty before they've even met them?

What we're shown about Greyshields, this simply isn't true. The Space Wolf Greyshield in 'Dark Imperium' is never shown to be indoctrinated when they're told they're joining the Wolfspear. The Ultramarines Greyshields have to be educated and drilled by a Firstborn Chaplain when they are inducted - there's no evidence they were indoctrinated beyond the normal Space Marine procedure. The Flesh Tearers Greyshield in one of the White Dwarf stories outright tells Gabriel Seth that he doesn't approve of the Flesh Tearer's brutality and practices - doesn't sound like they were indoctrinated either. And these Brazen Drakes Greyshields - where were they indoctrinated? By whom? Again, they've not even visited the homeworld yet, the Chapter Master hasn't even accepted them formally into his ranks, which is why Custodes were there in the first place!

No-one's saying that Greyshields could't be heretical, but that the suspicion/reasoning simply has no in-universe logic. True Greyshields aren't pre-indoctrinated. They are blank slates, who probably know good amounts about their First Founder (hence why the Space Wolf Greyshield is miffed he doesn't get assigned to his original founder), but they're not tied to a specific successor until much later, and seemingly require training and breaking in once they get there. So, these Greyshields being so attached makes no sense given what we've been told about Greyshields. The drake's head on the sword? Perhaps the Brazen Drakes are Salamanders successors, and so drake iconography would be seen amongst the Greyshields because they're still descended from Vulkan. That might explain that one, but there's no reason the Custodian should suspect the Greyshields specifically. If that's his grounds for them being traitors, as I said, he should be going after every Space Wolf, because we outright know there are Space Wolves who have turned to Chaos.

Pyroalchi wrote:Out of honest lack of knowledge: is there any logical reason NOT to already start indoctrinating loyalty into the greyshields before they meet their chapter? I don't really see a lack of time and already loyal Greyshields would be ready to use, instead of first needing months or years of indoctrination. But I admit that I'm not deep into Space Marine lore, therefore the question

Pre-indoctrination could occur, but I imagine the parent Chapters would want their staff on hand to monitor it. After all, you'd want to be sure they're being taught the right thing. But at that point, why not just have them come to your homeworld, where you already have all your staff, all your own indoctrination facilities, where they'd be coming anyways in order for them to outfitted in your own heraldry and colours and getting them organised within the fortress-monastery?
There's simply very little practical or logistical reason to send your own training forces out to train them, and bring them home again anyways. May as well just have the Greyshields come to you, and keep your valuable staff safe.

Basically, evidence tells us that Greyshields don't seem to be indoctrinated to be fanatically loyal to a specific Chapter. To their Primarch and Imperium, certainly, but they don't seem to be indoctrinated pre-assignment.

Jjohnso11 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Lord Damocles wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.

That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?

Now the Custodes just look really lazy and neglectful of their duties!

Exactly! If the Imperium is so illogical and so vehement when it comes to purging heresy that they will kill Marines that have no connection beyond geneseed, why haven't all Space Marines barring the Grey Knights been wiped out?

The imperium is full of hypocrites.

We're told Custodians aren't like that.
But still - you're saying this Custodian's mind was so fractured that he was happy to accuse 200 Marines based solely on the actions of a completely different Chapter, but when a Chapter outright has people turn to Chaos from it, they do nothing about them?
That's not hypocrisy, that's just a poorly written character.

Spoiler:

Jjohnso11 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines for when their successors haven't turned traitor? Or rather, threatened all the Ultramarines with heresy for it?

Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant.

But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.
But that would be a fault with the Greyshields, which would be completely separate from the Brazen Drakes? If he had a problem with the Greyshields, he shouldn't have needed proof from the Brazen Drakes, because they're simply not related!
I don't have an issue with him reacting faster. My issue is that he acts at all, because he should have no reason to suspect that Greyshields (which should have literally no attachment to their hosts) could be implicated in any of this.

If you replaced Brazen Drakes Greyshields with Ultramarines I'm sure the Custodes would have done the same thing.

You're telling me that if the Ultramarines and Custodes were travelling together, and found a completely unrelated Chapter with no established ties to the Ultramarines had turned traitor, the Custodes would immediately point weapons at the Ultramarines and demand their surrender, before the Ultramarines could even say or do anything?

I heavily doubt that has ever happened, so no, I disagree with that.

If the Custodes were transporting Ultramarine Primaris Space Marines to reinforce Ultramarines yes the Custodes would have killed all of them and would have then started attacking the Ultramarines on the planet. Disagree all you want I'm just telling you how it would go down.

So why haven't they done that? Again, it's no secret that Ultramarine geneseed Chapters have turned traitor. Geneseed is seemingly enough reason for the Custodes to go off on one and accuse everyone of heresy. So tell me why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines when Marines bearing their geneseed have gone rogue? You didn't answer my question.

You're telling me that "how it would go down" (which bears just as much weight as me telling you how this whole situations makes no sense internally), and then ignoring the ramificiations of that.
If the Custodes are so trigger happy to kill Marines because of crimes committed by unrelated Chapters bearing the same geneseed, why *haven't* they wiped out every single Chapter?

Spoiler:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I'm only calling them Greyshields because that's what the story does, but when you break down what's going on, how and why would Greyshields have personalised weapons and gifts from a Chapter that they've outright never met? Doesn't it logically make so much more sense this is an author error, one that, if corrected, would make the entire story make so much more sense?

Because then, you'd have WAY more reason for the Custodes flipping out - the Marines they're travelling with have actually HAD contact with the traitor Chapter, this is exactly the same thing that happened with the Word Bearers cohort of Custodians, and they're working on more evidence than just "you have the same Primarch". And the Marines on board the ship could still well be innocent, but it makes the whole situation so much better written, because both factions have more evidence and emotion behind them.

For the Custodian, this is exactly something that's happened before. They know the Marines have had plenty of time to be corrupted, and are officially part of the traitor Chapter. There's more than just a shared Primarch to link the two forces.
For the Marines, those are ACTUAL brothers they've lived, fought and died alongside which the Custodes are condemning, not some far off cousins who they've never met.

The characters become so much more interesting and dynamic when you assume that 'Greyshield' is an error, and remove the word.

He's on a ship full of Space Marines from a Chapter that is confirmed to be traitors.

No, he's not. He's on a ship full of Space Marines who are about to join, for the first time with a traitor Chapter. The Marines on that ship shouldn't be Greyshields and Brazen Drakes at the same time. That seems completely incongruous with what we've been shown about Greyshields and their hosts.

Look how quickly he sent out the message to his Company about fighting the Custodes. If he was innocent he wouldn't have sent that message.

He only sent the message because of the Custodian's actions. If the Custodian hadn't accused them of corruption in the first place (and as has been noted, he acted before anyone else could, so it's not like he was reacting to someone else's motion), then the Greyshields (if they truly are Greyshields) wouldn't have done anything.

Sure, when they start going on about "those are our brothers down there!", the Custodian should have massive red flags, but Greyshields shouldn't be that attached to Marines they've never met!

If you read the Horus Heresy you'll see how quickly ENTIRE LEGIONS of Space Marines turned traitor.

Yes, but the Legions were connected by far more than just the same geneseed. They shared the same leader, they shared the same training and doctrines, they shared the same history. They fell together because they WERE together, because they all venerated their Primarchs and commanders more than the Emperor, so when those figures fell, they all did. Greyshields don't have this! The Brazen Drakes seem to have fallen out of their refusal to hide their genetic flaw (which the Greyshields shouldn't either have, as their geneseed is from purer stock closer to the Legion/First Founding standard - and as no First Founder has the flaw of the Brazen Drakes, that means their issue is tied to their specific strain, which the Greyshields wouldn't have been bred from), and from their love for their Chapter Master (who hasn't even accepted Greyshield reinforcement yet, because that's why the Custodes were there: to enforce 'Cawl's Miracle'.). Under the circumstances we're given, the Custodes would have no reason to suspect beyond any normal means that the Greyshields were corrupted, and it's only through his antagonism of them that any action is even taken.

I'll reiterate - replace Brazen Drakes with any of the chapters you just said and the Custodes would have killed everyone on that bridge in exactly the same way. The Custodes don't have the man power or the authority to declare war on those Chapters but if the opportunity came and they received word that there was a traitor and it appeared the chapter was going to help them they would kill everyone they could.

No, they wouldn't.
Firstly, the Greyshields hadn't made any response to protecting the Brazen Drakes until after the Custodian held them at gunpoint. There was no "appearance the Chapter was going to help them" until after the Custodian took action.
Secondly, Custodians don't just wipe out whole Companies of Space Marines because unrelated Chapters turn traitor. They're suspicious of Space Marines, true, but there's been no case of a Custodian killing another Marine because one from a completely unrelated Chapter turned traitor. Otherwise, why haven't we seen scores of Chapters wiped out because single Marines from neighbouring Chapters fell to Chaos? Why wasn't every Marine who sided with Huron in the Badab War put to death?

Primaris reinforcements to the Chapter. SAME CHAPTER if it doesn't make sense then you aren't really reading the complete article/story and understanding the relationship between the Primaris on the ship and the Space Marines on the planet. That isn't the fault of the author.

But they're supposed to be Greyshields! They're not part of the Chapter! They've not even been cleared by the Chapter Master yet! We know from other Greyshields that Marines aren't given any kind of indoctrination or specific contact with their new host. These Greyshields should have as much in common with their home Chapter as a Mortifactor would have with a Son of Orar - none! Judging from the Custodian's display of logic, it would seem that he believes taint to run in the geneseed (which they don't even share, because the Primaris have a purer strain of geneseed from Terra, whereas the clearly defective geneseed of the Brazen Drakes is unique to them alone), so why hasn't this Custodian tried to excommunicate every Marines from that Primarch's lineage? The entire thing sounds like someone forgot what a Greyshield actual is, and mistakenly believes them to be way more involved with their parent Chapter than they would be at this stage.

And honestly, it sounds like you don't know what Greyshields are either.

Just for you I'm going to quote all the times the Primaris in the story are referred to as Brazen Drakes. Which for some reason you're sure they aren't wearing the iconography or carrying personalized weapons of Brazen Drakes.

For the fleet carrying the Brazen Drakes to meet their battle-brothers on Khassedur, this will have dire consequences for all…

Their duty had been to reach it, to deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields to their newly adopted home world, and to see that Chapter Master Kaslyn accepted the gift of Cawl’s Miracle.

The Greyshields’ leader was turning, eyes widening even as Tyvar raised his guardian spear. The three Brazen Drakes who flanked him moved almost as fast, but not even the post-Human Space Marines had the preternatural swiftness of thought and body possessed by the Adeptus Custodes.

We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world.

I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.

for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.

The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.

The Brazen Drake who had spoken was thrown flat on his back by the tight burst of mass-reactive bolts.

he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!

pummelling the Brazen Drake with ammunition as he strode swiftly forward.

From here, Dessima could see half a dozen Brazen Drakes who had spilled through the bridge’s bulkhead door to support their Captain.

They added their own flashing blades to the storm of violence engulfing the Brazen Drakes.

We will not rest until every Brazen Drakes Space Marine, old or new, lies dead.

And yet you still think they aren't Brazen Drakes???