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Rihgu wrote:

If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?

After all, if they're happy to kill 200 Marines with no reason, exterminating Chapters with confirmed quarrels with Imperial servants should be much higher on the Custodes' list of priorities.

Killing 200 marines confined to a fleet vs. killing 1,000,000 marines spread across the galaxy.

200 Marines who had displayed no signs of treachery, nor evidence that they were any more susceptible than other Astartes. That's the point you're missing here.

If it was acceptable to accuse 200 Marines of heresy of whom there was no reason to suspect, why not all Astartes?
What makes the other 999800 Astartes safe, but these 200 (completely unsuspecting) Astartes dangerous?

Also, the pragmatic point of marines serving a purpose for the Imperium despite the distaste of the Custodians.

Those 200 Marines served pragmatic purpose. There was no reason for the Custodian to suspect them, despite his distaste.

Why were those 200 Marines guilty before trial, but the other 9998000 innocent?

ALSO, the pragmatic point of the Imperium at large revering the Adeptus Astartes and very likely taking very poorly to the Custodes turning on them.

But that would be an acceptance of heresy, no?
If it is acceptable to accuse 200 Marines of heresy without any evidence, that would imply that all Space Marines must be similarly accused of heresy, as they have the same evidence against them (aka, none). If ALL Marines are accused of heresy, but the Custodes are afraid to take action because the Marines are too well revered, then that is an implicit endorsement of heresy and corruption from the Custodes.

If they have such a devout, burning hatred of Space Marines that they are prepared to arrest 200 of them without any evidence, why doesn't that extend to the wider Imperium? You can't have your "super duper hating of corruption" cake and ignore it too.

Those 200 marines were there, easy targets, and had Kill On Sight orders on them.

No, they didn't.
They had orders that Brazen Drakes were Kill On Sight. These Marines were not Brazen Drakes. They were Greyshields, apparently.

Now, I'd be more than happy to rearrange the story, and have those Marines actually *be* Brazen Drakes returning from a foreign crusade, but unfortunately, you don't seem to like that compromise. So, if you're going to insist that the story is perfect, I'm going to have to go by what the story tells us, and that those Marines are Greyshields, not Brazen Drakes.

I suggest you actually go and do some reading on what Greyshields are, and get back to me on that.

edit: for somebody so concerned with the logic of 40k, you don't seem to be trying to apply any of it.

On the contrary, you seem to ignore every one of my logical conclusions presented.

I have provided at least two logical and consistent rewrites of the story, that preserve the same themes, the same dramatic beats, and improve the logic and motivations of every character involved. Yet you reject them. Why?
Ignore the existing story, and consider my alternatives. Why are you so doggedly opposed to them? Are you just afraid to admit that there *is* nothing wrong, and you don't want to go back on your argument? Because your avoidance to actually answer that suggests so.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?

Do you remember how this strand of the discussion started with you saying "Space marines don't turn as easily as guardsmen" and me saying "Yes they turn at least as easily as guardsmen"?
Well, I think you get your answer right there: for the same reason that Custodes don't exterminate every guardsman in the galaxy!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 solkan wrote:
I think it's worth going back to the story and reviewing it:

- "Apprehend these traitors." as Shield-Captain Tyvar draws is spear and points his gun at the captain.
- Gerion starts to say "Shield-Captain..."
- "You do not address me, Gerion. You do not look at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with your brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined."
"Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned. This may be a mistake, some trick of the enemy. We may have brethren even now attempting to restore the honor of the Brazen Drakes on the world. ... I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers."

It's 40k. You're guilty until proven innocent.

So where are these Custodes fleets going out and demanding the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, etc etc bend the knee and get detained, hmm?

No. 40k *isn't* guilty until innocent. It's innocent, until you do the slightest thing wrong, and then you are utterly destroyed. That innocence hadn't been broken until the Custodian accused them of something they had no reason to suspect.

If that had been an RPG I was DMing, and the Custodian did that, I'd have called them out for being OOC. It was completely irrational, even for 40k standards, to expect Greyshields to be in league in any way with the traitor Marines. Had they not been Greyshields? Different story. But unfortunately, as much as I mention how simple it would be to just agree that calling them Greyshields was an author mistake, no-one seems to buy it.

Especially when heresy is concerned. And here you've got the Primaris Captain going "I'm willing to ignore an Inquisition edict in order to try to prove the honor of these fellow Space Marines who I've never met."

How, exactly, was that supposed to work out?

Yet again, you've missed my point.
The Marine absolutely signs his own death warrant by doing that. It doesn't change the fact that Custodes had no reason to suspect them in the first place.
Seriously, what is so hard to understand about that?

If the story was trying to illustrate a conflict between naive new Primaris and the established order, or that the people involved with "Cawl's Miracle" (presumably Guillman and the rest) were more open minded than everyone else thinks they should be, then I think it works.

Except it just paints the Custodian (who is described in other material as being expert diplomats and above the whole 'hurr durr heresy lol' mindset) as committing an RDM and finding justification after the fact?

Want to showcase the "conflict between the naive new Primaris and established order"? Give the established order a REASON to distrust the Primaris beyond "you're supposed to be their reinforcements, even though I know you've never met and there's no way you could have been corrupted".

Simple fix? Have the Marines be the first one to react. Have the entire thing start off with the Custodes saying "ah well, looks like the Marines on that planet are traitors, you guys are coming with us to exterminate them", and have Gerion say "hold on, what if this is all a big misunderstanding" - THEN the Custodian has a reason, and the story can play on normally. But as it currently is? It's a mess.

Just to reinforce: I like the core story. I like how it reinforces the Imperium is brutal and unforgiving and takes no chances. I can even appreciate the idea of "new vs old" if that's what they were going for. But their execution raises so many internal issues of consistency and plain stupidity that there's no way I can look at it and not want to do the tiniest, smallest of edits to make it fit.

And so far, no-one has told me why my amendments detract in any way from the original themes and ideas, or why there's no way that the inconsistencies can't be explained by simple authorial mistakes?

Because of one reason: This arguments in this thread represent more writing than the original work in question.

Seriously, the entire premise of the story is:
Two dudes walk into a room, and see something at the same time. Before Dude A can react, Dude B pulls a gun on Dude A based on how Dude B *knows what Dude A is going to do because Dude B is a bad ass/super smart/whatever*.

Space Cop pulls gun on Space Marine Dude because Space Cop is super smart and predicted that Space Marine Dude would do something stupid upon seeing the chapter they’re going to reinforce declared traitor. And then Space Marine Dude goes on to beg to be allowed to do something stupid (try to protect the honor of a traitor chapter he’s not part of yet). Then bolter fight breaks out.

That’s the premise you’re objecting to.

Rihgu wrote:

If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?

After all, if they're happy to kill 200 Marines with no reason, exterminating Chapters with confirmed quarrels with Imperial servants should be much higher on the Custodes' list of priorities.

Killing 200 marines confined to a fleet vs. killing 1,000,000 marines spread across the galaxy.
Also, the pragmatic point of marines serving a purpose for the Imperium despite the distaste of the Custodians.
ALSO, the pragmatic point of the Imperium at large revering the Adeptus Astartes and very likely taking very poorly to the Custodes turning on them.
Those 200 marines were there, easy targets, and had Kill On Sight orders on them.

edit: for somebody so concerned with the logic of 40k, you don't seem to be trying to apply any of it.

It seems like you're arguing that custodes don't care about having a reason to kill marines and that they constantly want to kill marines every time they think they can get away with it. If that's the case, it seems like it ought to be a much bigger part of their fluff. Like, marines should wander off to use the toilet and never return thanks to the custodes axe murderer lurking above the stalls. Custodes on missions with marines would be cutting down wounded and distracted marines every chance they got and then blaming it on the enemy. I'm no expert on custodes lore, but I'm not under the impression that that's their jam.

I don't think custodes need much reason to kill marines, but they probably need some reason. The custodes in this story didn't have a reason to accuse the greyshields of being traitors (at first). He just had an after-the-fact excuse. And as I don't believe custodes make a habit of beheading marines in the toilet, I find his behavior out of character.

So probably the author just didn't fully think through the implications of the marines being grey shields. Honest mistake. A bit baffling. Story overall is good.

Alternative headcanon: custodes aren't nearly as bright as they're hyped up to me, and the custodes was so surprised by the inquisitorial declaration that he had a brain fart and made an oopsie.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?

Do you remember how this strand of the discussion started with you saying "Space marines don't turn as easily as guardsmen" and me saying "Yes they turn at least as easily as guardsmen"?
Well, I think you get your answer right there: for the same reason that Custodes don't exterminate every guardsman in the galaxy!

Right - so why don't they exterminate every guardsman?

If the Imperium has demonstrated that Space Marines are acceptable targets with such little evidence against them, why aren't we seeing lone Guardsmen regiments that Custodes happen to fall upon get wiped out? After all, if Space Marines fall as easily as Guardsmen, why don't we see Guardsmen get wiped out for members of their homeworlds turning traitor?

Let's look at one of the bloodiest examples of "collateral damage" in the Imperium - the aftermath of the First Armageddon War (the invasion of Angron). The Inquisition wanted every soldier processed and executed - cruel, but not without reason (the reason being actual proven exposure to one of the most corrupting influences in the galaxy, an honest-to-god Daemon Primarch). They only expanded their collateral damage when those proven to have been at risk were allowed to escape - and even then, the Inquisition killed the worlds they had spread to, not every single planet in the way. They were unbelievably cruel and inhumane, completely out of touch with our IRL sensibilities, but within the setting, they had a reason for the suspicion.

What reason did Tyvar have to suspect the Greyshields? You know, beyond "everyone is corruptible so everyone must be corrupted, even though nothing has happened!!" logic?

solkan wrote:Because of one reason: This arguments in this thread represent more writing than the original work in question.

Seriously, the entire premise of the story is:
Two dudes walk into a room, and see something at the same time. Before Dude A can react, Dude B pulls a gun on Dude A based on how Dude B *knows what Dude A is going to do because Dude B is a bad ass/super smart/whatever*.

No, they don't. Dude B has no way of knowing what Dude A will do. That's the flaw in your argument.

The Custodian has both no knowledge, nor reason to suspect that the Greyshields will be a complication. Therefore, there is no reason for them to have drawn a weapon.
Now, if Dude A and B had both seen the thing at the same time, and Dude A had actually done something incriminating, even the slightest thing, like showing sympathy, or even asking "what do we do?", then Dude B would have complete in-universe reason to react that way. But that's not what happened, and you know it.

What evidence do you have that the Custodian "knew" the Marines would have been a complication before he drew on them? Because it's never mentioned anywhere.

Space Cop pulls gun on Space Marine Dude because Space Cop is super smart and predicted that Space Marine Dude would do something stupid upon seeing the chapter they’re going to reinforce declared traitor. And then Space Marine Dude goes on to beg to be allowed to do something stupid (try to protect the honor of a traitor chapter he’s not part of yet). Then bolter fight breaks out.

But that's the thing - Space Cop *isn't* super smart - at least, not in that degree. Yes, Custodes are possessed of incredible skills (notably, in diplomacy), but incredibly skills don't just manifest evidence out of thin air. And there is no evidence to suggest that these Greyshields were in any way a threat to the Custodes.
Now, if we'd *seen* the Greyshields make some kind of move, some slight error, I'd be all agreed - but that's not what happened. Even more amusing is that I've literally presented the motion of rewriting to include some kind of line where, before the Custodian calls the Marines traitors, the Greyshield says something out-of-line, that *would* give your super duper little Custodian reason to suspect and predict corruption. But no, we can't admit that maybe it could have been edited slightly, can we?

I honestly don't care about anything that happens after the Custodian draws his weapon. In the rules of the setting, the Marines sign their death warrant. I agree with that.
What *is* a problem is that the Custodes had no way of knowing, guessing, or predicting that those Greyshields were corrupt, and they are only proven correct by self-fulfilling prophecy.

That’s the premise you’re objecting to.

I'm objecting to the absurd claim that the Custodian "knew" exactly what the Greyshields would do, when they had no reason to suspect them in the first place. We're given no indication prior to the Custodes getting all twitchy on the trigger finger that the Greyshields were anything but compliant *prior to their detainment*.

The entire "dude B draws a gun on dude A" analogy is so painfully wrong it hurts. B had no way of knowing A's intentions. I've provided alternatives that keep exactly the same feel, and even allows B their little "super duper detective" thing - but no, it's too much to admit that maybe the author had an error, probably out of a completely honest mistake.

Wyldhunt wrote:So probably the author just didn't fully think through the implications of the marines being grey shields. Honest mistake. A bit baffling. Story overall is good.

Exactly. What's so controversial about stating that?

Author made a mistake. There's easy fixes. The core story is fine. What's wrong with agreeing to that?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Alternative headcanon: custodes aren't nearly as bright as they're hyped up to me, and the custodes was so surprised by the inquisitorial declaration that he had a brain fart and made an oopsie.

On the subject of headcanon, if we're truly going to take certain suggestions that Custodes just want to butcher and bully smaller Imperial forces because they "could be corrupted!" to the logical extreme, I'd actually be interested to hear about rogue Custodes and Sisters, who track down small Imperial fleets and wipe them all out in the dead of space, where they can't cry for help or mount a meaningful resistance.

Of course, that would make these Custodes and Sisters completely irrational and delusional (which would be a bit of a diversion from the lore outlining them as rational and intelligent warrior-scholars, but apparently Custodes aren't so bright after all).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:There shouldn't. The other chapters should've been called out also. They weren't because of gak writing. I've held the opinion that that's crap writing even before this short story released - indeed, it's finally a welcome change for the marines not to be wearing plot armor thicker than their power armor.

So me bringing up that the Drakes aren't treated consistently with other Chapters isn't an issue, right?

Nope, not an issue at all. This short story has fine writing, and the other chapters getting off is crap writing. You think the other chapters getting off is fine, and this story is crap writing. *shrug*

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It's a short story; I wouldn't worry about the details. The themes it presents are the meat and potatoes of the story, and the individual details aren't that problematic imo. The specific culture surrounding the induction of greyshields into a chapter probably varies from chapter-to-chapter anyways; it's not as egregious as Land Raiders armed with Multilasers or anything (which happened in a real novel by the by).

Eh, I'm not sure I agree. The core themes are fine, but the individual details create problematic implications for the setting. Again, it's not like the details just weren't fleshed out, it's more because the author added too many details to the story which had a great core anyways.

What sort of problematic implications does it create? That heretics are executed on the spot without hesitation? Or even with some hesitation. Perhaps the problematic implication is that the imperium is being weak, since he asked the Marines twice instead of once to disarm.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
To put it as a food analogy, while I can appreciate that the steak at the core of the meal is great, the chocolate sauce covering it just takes away from the lovely steak.

Nothing in this story is so bad as chocolate sauce would be on a steak. Not even close.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:There shouldn't. The other chapters should've been called out also. They weren't because of gak writing. I've held the opinion that that's crap writing even before this short story released - indeed, it's finally a welcome change for the marines not to be wearing plot armor thicker than their power armor.

So me bringing up that the Drakes aren't treated consistently with other Chapters isn't an issue, right?

Nope, not an issue at all. This short story has fine writing, and the other chapters getting off is crap writing. You think the other chapters getting off is fine, and this story is crap writing. *shrug*

Not quite. I think this story has the Custodes act on too little evidence, and the Space Wolves get away with too much. There's a middle ground between the two, and this story doesn't cut it, IMO.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It's a short story; I wouldn't worry about the details. The themes it presents are the meat and potatoes of the story, and the individual details aren't that problematic imo. The specific culture surrounding the induction of greyshields into a chapter probably varies from chapter-to-chapter anyways; it's not as egregious as Land Raiders armed with Multilasers or anything (which happened in a real novel by the by).

Eh, I'm not sure I agree. The core themes are fine, but the individual details create problematic implications for the setting. Again, it's not like the details just weren't fleshed out, it's more because the author added too many details to the story which had a great core anyways.

What sort of problematic implications does it create? That heretics are executed on the spot without hesitation? Or even with some hesitation. Perhaps the problematic implication is that the imperium is being weak, since he asked the Marines twice instead of once to disarm.

The problematic implication is that Marines can be accused of heresy without any actual reason. If these Greyshields have enough reason to be initially suspected, then every Space Marines does.

Execution without hesitation? Fine by 40k standards. Accusation without reason? I think not. I don't have an issue with what the Custodian does *after* the Marines question him, but the fact the Custodian (who is supposed to be diplomatic and sensible - by Imperial standards) accuses them before they have any evidence opens up a whole can of worms.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
To put it as a food analogy, while I can appreciate that the steak at the core of the meal is great, the chocolate sauce covering it just takes away from the lovely steak.

Nothing in this story is so bad as chocolate sauce would be on a steak. Not even close.

I disagree, personally. It's a lovely core story, but bringing in Greyshields and having the Custodian act without any proof? Takes me out of the whole story.

You say the Custodian acted without evidence (and this seems to be the whole point your post hinges around), but the chapter was declared heretical by the Inquisition.

If a detective tells a cop he needs to arrest a perp, does the cop do his own investigation to make sure the detective isn't wrong? Or should he trust the detective to do his job, and get on with doing his own?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You say the Custodian acted without evidence (and this seems to be the whole point your post hinges around), but the chapter was declared heretical by the Inquisition.

And the Greyshields aren't the Brazen Drakes.
So why were the Greyshields arrested?

If a detective tells a cop he needs to arrest a perp, does the cop do his own investigation to make sure the detective isn't wrong? Or should he trust the detective to do his job, and get on with doing his own?

The cop doesn't arrest someone who was about to work in the same company as the perp unless they have evidence they were also involved.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You say the Custodian acted without evidence (and this seems to be the whole point your post hinges around), but the chapter was declared heretical by the Inquisition.

And the Greyshields aren't the Brazen Drakes.

They kind of are, kind of aren't, which is why they were given an opportunity to be investigated independently before throwing that opportunity away by not following orders and proving themselves heretics.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So why were the Greyshields arrested?

For questioning, just like the cops might detain someone for questioning without them being a suspect.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

If a detective tells a cop he needs to arrest a perp, does the cop do his own investigation to make sure the detective isn't wrong? Or should he trust the detective to do his job, and get on with doing his own?

The cop doesn't arrest someone who was about to work in the same company as the perp unless they have evidence they were also involved.

The cop arrests anyone involved with the company, if the directive is to arrest anyone involved with the company. This can include new employees who don't even have a company email account and have barely checked in the front door at the security desk. It would be unreasonable to assume these are hardcore criminals, but arresting them for questioning about what they might know is not unreasonable in a place as dystopian as the Imperium.

Remember, the Custodian does not assume guilt. He requires them to stand down so their "fate can be determined" which is a fancy way of saying "I'm not sure you guys are actually involved in the heresy but we need time to find out before I trust you again." What proves the heresy (in his mind, and rightfully so) is when they disobey not one, but two direct orders from a vested representative of the Emperor himself.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You say the Custodian acted without evidence (and this seems to be the whole point your post hinges around), but the chapter was declared heretical by the Inquisition.

And the Greyshields aren't the Brazen Drakes.

They kind of are, kind of aren't, which is why they were given an opportunity to be investigated independently before throwing that opportunity away by not following orders and proving themselves heretics.

They really aren't anything to do with the Brazen Drakes at all, no more so than any other Space Marine. There was no reason to be investigated at all (prior to them opposing the Custodian).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So why were the Greyshields arrested?

For questioning, just like the cops might detain someone for questioning without them being a suspect.

Except that's not what the Custodian did. They weren't detained for questioning. They were declared as traitors. Their guilt had already been determined, without any input from them.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

If a detective tells a cop he needs to arrest a perp, does the cop do his own investigation to make sure the detective isn't wrong? Or should he trust the detective to do his job, and get on with doing his own?

The cop doesn't arrest someone who was about to work in the same company as the perp unless they have evidence they were also involved.

The cop arrests anyone involved with the company, if the directive is to arrest anyone involved with the company. This can include new employees who don't even have a company email account and have barely checked in the front door at the security desk. It would be unreasonable to assume these are hardcore criminals, but arresting them for questioning about what they might know is not unreasonable in a place as dystopian as the Imperium.

These aren't new employees though. These are people who are just about to become new employees.

Let's say I wanted to work for GW, and then it's discovered that the entire company is riddled with corruption and various illegal activities. I'm not part of the company, but I was in the process of applying. What on earth do I have to do with their guilt?

And again, the Custodian wasn't even taking the Marines in for questioning. He had already declared them as guilty. The only thing he was offering was a lighter punishment. There wasn't any kind of "maybe you're guilty" involved, it went straight to "you're guilty, now come with me".

Remember, the Custodian does not assume guilt.

Read his first line again, and tell me that.

He requires them to stand down so their "fate can be determined" which is a fancy way of saying "I'm not sure you guys are actually involved in the heresy but we need time to find out before I trust you again." What proves the heresy (in his mind, and rightfully so) is when they disobey not one, but two direct orders from a vested representative of the Emperor himself.

Not true. His first line, which is delivered explicitly before the Marines can say or do anything, is declaring them as traitors. Not "you are suspected of heresy" or "I need to investigate you" - an outright condemnation of the Greyshields.
His whole spiel about "fate can be determined" is basically saying "if you comply, you might only be sent on a penitent crusade instead of being executed". There was no way the Greyshields were going to be set free, because the Custodian jumped straight to proclaiming them guilty.

The version of the story you're describing isn't the one we got. If the Custodian had done what you describe, I wouldn't be complaining, but that's not what happened.

I feel that, regarding questions of innocence, the 40k universe has never attempted to pretend that innocence or fair judgement actually means anything.

"Forgot the promise of progress and understanding"

"The weak will always be led by the strong. Where the strong see purpose and act, the weak follow; where the strong cry out against fate, the weak bow their heads and succumb. There are many who are weak; and many are their temptations. Despise the weak for they shall flock to the call of the Daemon and the Renegade. Pity them not and scorn their cries of innocence - it is better that one hundred innocently fall before the wrath of the Emperor than one kneels before the Daemon."

"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time."

"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."

From our perspective, or really most any realistic perspective, none of this insane paranoia really works, but its perfectly normal for 40k.

I have not read the story yet, but to look at it both ways:

1. during the heresy half the marines broke bad. Out of 18 known legions 9 went traitor. (No, dark angles didn't!) That's a 50% fail rate. So by that metric it's hard to say marines are trustworthy.

2.In the 10,00 or so years since the heresy, the majority of marines descended from loyalists have stayed loyal. Yes, we had the red corsairs and the blood gorgons among others go bad, but the vast majority of chapters created post heresy from loyalist geneseed (Blood ravens?) have remained loyal and more have been destroyed in service to the emperor than have gone renegade.

So there's reason to look at marines with heavy suspicion and reason to assume they will likely remain loyal. I guess we know which way the custodes tend to see things.

Ultimately, find every objection you have Sgt_Smudge comes back around to the vagaries and known inconsistencies of the 41st Millennium.

Yes, the Brazen Drakes Greyshields shouldn't be suspect of anything since they haven't even met the chapter yet, but they are Brazen Drakes and the Brazen Drakes have been declared traitors as a whole. The illogical extremes of the IOM is a constant theme of Warhammer 40,000.

Yes, other chapters have gotten away with all sorts of shenanigans that should have had them equally censured, but even in real life some people get lauded for things that get other people tossed in jail. I guess the Space Wolves have really good publicist.

You'd think a bunch of Greyshields wouldn't identify with a bunch of guys they've never met, and yet time and time again the genetic programming of the Adeptus Astartes has proven to cause irrationally loyalty. This was the reason half the Legions turned to Chaos and the Legions were broken up!

So yes, there are aspects of this story that don't make sense from a 20th Century intellectual basis. The 41st Millennium is not a 20th Century intellectual galaxy.

Vaktathi wrote:I feel that, regarding questions of innocence, the 40k universe has never attempted to pretend that innocence or fair judgement actually means anything.
...
From our perspective, or really most any realistic perspective, none of this insane paranoia really works, but its perfectly normal for 40k.

Perhaps, but we don't see this kind of "Marines being accused of heresy without any evidence" elsewhere. Hell, we don't even see Guardsmen accused of corruption without a reason.
Sure, the Imperium is brutal, inhumane, and even the slightest bit of evidence will get you killed. But that still requires *some* evidence - that much is consistent with 40k.

alextroy wrote:Ultimately, find every objection you have Sgt_Smudge comes back around to the vagaries and known inconsistencies of the 41st Millennium.

Yes, the Brazen Drakes Greyshields shouldn't be suspect of anything since they haven't even met the chapter yet, but they are Brazen Drakes and the Brazen Drakes have been declared traitors as a whole. The illogical extremes of the IOM is a constant theme of Warhammer 40,000.

Well, no, they're not Brazen Drakes. They're either Brazen Drakes, or Greyshields. This is what I mean by the author making mistakes - 'Brazen Drakes Greyshields' isn't a thing. You have 'Ultramarines Greyshields' and 'Dark Angels Greyshields' but that's because those are first founding Chapters. Brazen Drakes are a successor Chapter.

So, what are they? If they're Greyshields, the Custodes have no reason to suspect them. If they're Brazen Drakes, then the entire section about their Chapter Master "accepting Cawl's Miracle" is incorrect.

Yes, other chapters have gotten away with all sorts of shenanigans that should have had them equally censured, but even in real life some people get lauded for things that get other people tossed in jail. I guess the Space Wolves have really good publicist.

As people are so keen on saying, 40k isn't real life. Custodes are the highest Imperial authority, There is no reason they wouldn't take on these more suspect Chapters, if they're so hating of Marines.

You'd think a bunch of Greyshields wouldn't identify with a bunch of guys they've never met, and yet time and time again the genetic programming of the Adeptus Astartes has proven to cause irrationally loyalty. This was the reason half the Legions turned to Chaos and the Legions were broken up!

By that same logic, all the Space Marines should be killed. Yet that hasn't happened. Why?

So yes, there are aspects of this story that don't make sense from a 20th Century intellectual basis. The 41st Millennium is not a 20th Century intellectual galaxy.

The story doesn't make sense from a 40k basis, let alone ours. That's why I have an issue with it.

From a 40k basis, people aren't declared guilty without at least *some* evidence, even if it's completely flimsy. There was no such evidence here. The rest of the story is fine, but that first part of the Custodian instantly accusing of guilty without even a trace of suspicion in the first place is incongruent with the rest of the setting. I've provided fixes that would keep the 40k feel, themes, and allow it to fit in the setting's expectations much better. So why is there pushback against it?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I feel that, regarding questions of innocence, the 40k universe has never attempted to pretend that innocence or fair judgement actually means anything.
...
From our perspective, or really most any realistic perspective, none of this insane paranoia really works, but its perfectly normal for 40k.

Perhaps, but we don't see this kind of "Marines being accused of heresy without any evidence" elsewhere. Hell, we don't even see Guardsmen accused of corruption without a reason.
Sure, the Imperium is brutal, inhumane, and even the slightest bit of evidence will get you killed. But that still requires *some* evidence - that much is consistent with 40k.

Right off the immediate top of my head, there was the Mordant 13th Regiment, as detailed in the Tactica Imperialis book that BL put out written by Abnett & Hoare. They fought against, and defeated a Chaos force led by an Emperor's Children CSM named Jihar the Lacerator, halting his black crusade. Notes of the campaign detail how even without hand to hand fighting and extreme dissuasions by Preachers to avoid enemy dead, conversations are had about contamination being possible (though not actually witnessed or confirmed). As soon as Jihar the Lacerator was defeated, the 13th Mordant was wiped out from orbit on Inquisitorial order.

The Inquisitor notes how he saw the spirit of the emperor in the breast of each trooper, felt divine presence upon the battlefield and believed vengeful angels fought alongside the 13th Mordant...and proceeds to order their annihilation simply for having been in contact with Chaos forces, of course only after personally setting foot on the battleground and inspecting the bloody remains of the dead Jihar (all that stuff they forbade the troopers doing) himself

Also reminds me a bit of the events around the abyssal crusade. All those chapters were in a similar Situation to the greyshields here: their homeworlds were corrupted so they were all seen aa corrupted too and sent into the Eye to die (or turn to Chaos apparently....)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I feel that, regarding questions of innocence, the 40k universe has never attempted to pretend that innocence or fair judgement actually means anything.
...
From our perspective, or really most any realistic perspective, none of this insane paranoia really works, but its perfectly normal for 40k.

Perhaps, but we don't see this kind of "Marines being accused of heresy without any evidence" elsewhere. Hell, we don't even see Guardsmen accused of corruption without a reason.
Sure, the Imperium is brutal, inhumane, and even the slightest bit of evidence will get you killed. But that still requires *some* evidence - that much is consistent with 40k.

1) There is evidence. The fact that you, personally, Sgt. Smudge, believe that Brazen Drakes Greyshields are not part of the Brazen Drakes Chapter does not mean that Custodian Tyvar agrees with your interpretation of Imperial bureaucracy. He saw them as part of the Brazen Drakes, and you're free to argue that they aren't with him at your leisure but he is the authority on that, being the voice of the Emperor and all. There was sufficient evidence to condemn these marines in his eyes. That you disagree with the evidence that Brazen Drakes Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes doesn't mean Custodian Tyvar has to agree. In fact, your disagreement on this point would see you arrested or shot as well, most likely.

2) Other chapters have not been sanctioned for doing worse - but they should have been. This is crap writing.

3) Guardsmen have absolutely been accused of corruption without reason. Even civilians have. Just look at the first war for Armageddon, where the entire planetary population was condemned to death without trial, Guardsmen and all, for simply being in proximity to a chaos invasion - even if they were on the other side of the world (i.e. about as related to the Chaos invasion as the Brazen Drakes Greyshields were to the Brazen Drakes). The only surprising thing about this was that the Marines weren't, and that's silly writing.

Vaktathi wrote:Right off the immediate top of my head, there was the Mordant 13th Regiment, as detailed in the Tactica Imperialis book that BL put out written by Abnett & Hoare. They fought against, and defeated a Chaos force led by an Emperor's Children CSM named Jihar the Lacerator, halting his black crusade. Notes of the campaign detail how even without hand to hand fighting and extreme dissuasions by Preachers to avoid enemy dead, conversations are had about contamination being possible (though not actually witnessed or confirmed). As soon as Jihar the Lacerator was defeated, the 13th Mordant was wiped out from orbit on Inquisitorial order. The Inquisitor notes how he saw the spirit of the emperor in the breast of each trooper, felt divine presence upon the battlefield and believed vengeful angels fought alongside the 13th Mordant...and proceeds to order their annihilation simply for having been in contact with Chaos forces, of course only after personally setting foot on the battleground and inspecting the bloody remains of the dead Jihar (all that stuff they forbade the troopers doing) himself

Well, there's your reason right there (my emphasis). They, mortal humans, fought against Chaos directly. And while they *might* have been safe, that was down to the Inquisitor's discretion, which they had every right to do, under 40k rules.

Unlike the Greyshield incident, where there is no cause for suspicion, these Guardsmen had engaged in an activity that could arouse suspicion.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:Also reminds me a bit of the events around the abyssal crusade. All those chapters were in a similar Situation to the greyshields here: their homeworlds were corrupted so they were all seen aa corrupted too and sent into the Eye to die (or turn to Chaos apparently....)

That's the thing though - the Abyssal Crusade only had some much weight behind it because there was a massive warp storm that caused a bunch of corruption in local Hive Worlds, to the point where people feared the Space Marines had also been affected. More importantly, Saint Basillius conducted tests for purity, and found them guilty. So not only was there a reason to suspect the Marines (a recent Warp storm), but also testing!
Now, we later learn that those tests were fabricated, and none of the Marines were corrupt in the first place (which is only figured out after some return, and, surprise surprise, are tested), but that still stands that Marines are still tested and screened before accusations of heresy are thrown about. There needs to be a reason for suspecting them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:1) There is evidence. The fact that you, personally, Sgt. Smudge, believe that Greyshields are not part of the Chapter does not mean that Custodian Tyvar agrees with your interpretation of Imperial bureaucracy. He saw them as part of the Brazen Drakes

Then Custodian Tyvar doesn't understand what Greyshields are. Or, more importantly, it sounds like the writer doesn't understand what Greyshields are.

I'm not saying that Custodes are infalliable, but they are hyper-intelligent, and would be absolutely aware of the fact that Greyshields are not part of a Chapter.
That's not an interpretation, that's fact. This isn't some kind of "well, you can argue that Rune Priests aren't the same as Librarians" bureaucracy, this is "they flat out aren't related".

and you're free to argue that they aren't with him at your leisure but he is the authority on that, being the voice of the Emperor and all. There was sufficient evidence to condemn these marines in his eyes. That you disagree with the evidence that Brazen Drakes Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes doesn't mean Custodian Tyvar has to agree. In fact, your disagreement on this point would see you arrested or shot as well, most likely.

If that's genuinely what Tyvar though, this author is worse than I imagined.

Custodes are intelligent. Your description of one here is not.

It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't. That's like saying "the difference between a bolter and lascannon is a matter of Imperial bureaucracy", when that just flat out incorrect. A Guardsman commander failing to understand what a Greyshield is, I can understand. A Custodian specifically tasked with escorting said Greyshields, one of the most intelligent beings in the Imperium, not knowing that is worse writing that anything else in the story.

2) Other chapters have not been sanctioned for doing worse - but they should have been. This is crap writing.

So you think all Chapters should be wiped out? Because nearly every genetic lineage has had someone turn traitor, and the only similarity between the Greyshields and the Brazen Drakes was genetic lineage.

3) Guardsmen have absolutely been accused of corruption without reason. Even civilians have. Just look at the first war for Armageddon, where the entire planetary population was condemned to death without trial, Guardsmen and all, for simply being in proximity to a chaos invasion

I literally just quoted the 1st War for why the Imperium DOESN'T execute without reason! The planetary population and guardsmen being executed HAD a reason, being a bloody big Daemon Primarch and daemonic invasion occurring! And guess what, they didn't even start wiping out other planets until they had reason to believe that Guardsmen had broken the quarantine, and gone to those specific worlds. They didn't just torch those planets for giggles - they did it for a *reason*.

The First War is about the worst example you can give for "did it without a reason", because everything they did had a cause for suspicion.
Daemonic invasion of a Daemon Primarch? Incredibly corrupting influence, easily puts the whole planet at risk of corruption. Everyone on world is now suspect, but not other planets.
Escaped guardsmen? We have a reason to believe they're corrupted (see above), which means the worlds they land on could be corrupted. Now both worlds are suspect too.

Greyshields? What reason do we have to believe they're corrupted? Well, they're Brazen Dr- but actually, they've got nothing to do with the Drakes. So what's the reason?

even if they were on the other side of the world (i.e. about as related to the Chaos invasion as the Brazen Drakes Greyshields were to the Brazen Drakes).

You can't be serious? Greyshields, born, raised, and trained on a completely different end of the galaxy, with literally no similarity except the same genetic lineage (which dozens of other Chapters share, no doubt), versus people literally born and raised on the same planet, which has been directly affected by one of the most corrupting forces and influences in the galaxy?

They couldn't be more different if you tried!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Right off the immediate top of my head, there was the Mordant 13th Regiment, as detailed in the Tactica Imperialis book that BL put out written by Abnett & Hoare. They fought against, and defeated a Chaos force led by an Emperor's Children CSM named Jihar the Lacerator, halting his black crusade. Notes of the campaign detail how even without hand to hand fighting and extreme dissuasions by Preachers to avoid enemy dead, conversations are had about contamination being possible (though not actually witnessed or confirmed). As soon as Jihar the Lacerator was defeated, the 13th Mordant was wiped out from orbit on Inquisitorial order. The Inquisitor notes how he saw the spirit of the emperor in the breast of each trooper, felt divine presence upon the battlefield and believed vengeful angels fought alongside the 13th Mordant...and proceeds to order their annihilation simply for having been in contact with Chaos forces, of course only after personally setting foot on the battleground and inspecting the bloody remains of the dead Jihar (all that stuff they forbade the troopers doing) himself

Well, there's your reason right there (my emphasis). They, mortal humans, fought against Chaos directly. And while they *might* have been safe, that was down to the Inquisitor's discretion, which they had every right to do, under 40k rules.

Unlike the Greyshield incident, where there is no cause for suspicion, these Guardsmen had engaged in an activity that could arouse suspicion.

From my understanding of 40k, I think the line being drawn there just isn't recognized or seen as relevant within the universe, at least not by all. The Guardsmen of the Mordant 13th were fully noted as being fully compliant, victorious, and guided directly by the Emperor's Will, and never got a chance to even speak up to defend themselves despite zero evidence of wrongdoing in anyway (and in fact much the opposite on all counts). For marines who were part of a chapter rebelled, the Marines are part of that chapter, regardless of other circumstances, and that's close enough for gov't work in 40k (again "there is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt/an innocent plea is guilty of wasting my time") to be a suspicious activity in some quarters, and they just happened to be in that quarter at the time.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't.

For me this is the key point, and undermines the story significantly.

The Greyshields are likely Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed (the most commonly used), but could conceivably be Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or whatever.

Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.

The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.

Gargantuan numbers of people have been killed in real life for such tenuous connections, or even less, and while it's absolutely fair to call it out for being stupid, I don't think it's a particularly wild outlier for 40k behavior. That sort of short-sighted lethal over-reaction feels pretty routine for 40k and its dystopian grimdark setting.

Vaktathi wrote: From my understanding of 40k, I think the line being drawn there just isn't recognized or seen as relevant within the universe, at least not by all. The Guardsmen of the Mordant 13th were fully noted as being fully compliant, victorious, and guided directly by the Emperor's Will, and never got a chance to even speak up to defend themselves despite zero evidence of wrongdoing in anyway (and in fact much the opposite on all counts).

But simply because of the undeniable fact they had fought Chaos, there was plenty of reason they *could* have been compromised. It was them fighting Chaos that doomed them, something that has long been established to be an insidious threat.

Compare to the Greyshields. No contact with the traitor Chapter. None of their training or indoctrinated beliefs. Not recruited from the same source. Not exposed to the same environment. Their geneseed isn't even identical (Brazen Drakes would presumably take their geneseed from their own vaults, whereas the Greyshields sent to join them would have pure geneseed from the original Legion from which the Drakes were descended).
If the Brazen Drakes were corrupted, there is no evidence or reason at all to suspect the Greyshields without also accusing every single Space Marine in the galaxy. That's the difference here.
With the Mordant, they aren't just killed because some other regiment turned traitor without any relation to them. They were killed because they had direct exposure to Chaos, and the Inquisitor didn't fancy taking chances with something he knew was a risk.

For marines who were part of a chapter rebelled, the Marines are part of that chapter, regardless of other circumstances, and that's close enough for gov't work in 40k

But that's my point - the Greyshields *weren't* part of that Chapter who rebelled.

What you're implying is that if the Mortifactors turned traitor, the Ultramarines would be traitors as well, without trial.

(again "there is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt/an innocent plea is guilty of wasting my time") to be a suspicious activity in some quarters, and they just happened to be in that quarter at the time.

I agree that once the Greyshields start arguing back, they've signed their own death warrant. My point is that the Custodian had no in-character reason to start the argument by accusing them of corruption.

Vaktathi wrote:Gargantuan numbers of people have been killed in real life for such tenuous connections, or even less, and while it's absolutely fair to call it out for being stupid, I don't think it's a particularly wild outlier for 40k behavior. That sort of short-sighted lethal over-reaction feels pretty routine for 40k and its dystopian grimdark setting.

Whereas I find the grimdarkness comes from the extreme overreactions when problems are found, not when characters just act like dicks for the sake of it. The grimdarkness comes when characters take the most brutal, inhumane approach, because it's sometimes more effective than being kind. In the Custodes' case, that doesn't happen.
The Custodian acts without impulse. There is no reason for someone like a Custodes to suspect a Greyshield of the same crimes as a completely unrelated Chapter. Therefore, their action is unfounded. Had the Greyshields said something first, or weren't Greyshields, but actual members of the Chapter, I'd be all aboard this story, but that not what we have.

harlokin wrote:Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.

The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.

Agreed. We're looking at two completely different groups of Astartes here. There's no connection between them, so the Custodes blaming them collectively either undermines the intelligence of the Custodes, or is simply just an authorial mistake.

There's a famous high level inquisitor who is known for executing anyone he investigates. The innocent are burned just like witches and heretics because they wasted his precious time by failing to appear innocent enough to avoid being questioned by him.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Fyodor_Karamazov

I have this image of a major chaos lord someday standing over his dying body, having defeated him and asking if he remembered him. He then tells karamazov that decades ago the inquisitor acknowledged his parents were innocent, then burned them alive for wasting his time determining they were innocent.

"..and that was the day the god Tzeentch offered me power, and I accepted."

(I don't care who you are, now that's funny!)

So yes, we have major league inquisitors knowingly executing the innocent on grounds of petty arrogance, and are still allowed to sit in judgement of people.

The custodes actions were just par for the course in the 40k imperium. I don't think the writer made a mistake, I don't think what the custodes did was right, I just think it was a tuesday in the 40k universe.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s still the problem at its most controlled.

Those 200 or so Astartes are not going anywhere. Their locations are known. They’re not getting reinforcements.

Yes there will be a Butcher’s Bill by the end of the affair. But better that than letting potential traitors the chance to rearm and head out into the wider Galaxy.

Right up until the plasma drives start going critical, or they manage to seize a ship and jump to warp.

The best way to contain this would be to play along, tell the marines to gather in the launch bays to prepare to assault the planet and then space them out the airlocks and give your macrocannon gunners some fun target practice.

SGT_Smudge, you're granting far too much specialness to space marines.

You've fallen back on 'well they're just guardsmen so of course they'll be executed without cause' because your argument is based on the premise that space marines are super special exceptions to the everyday brutality of the Imperium.

I'm not sure whether you've bought into the fandom hypetrain that includes gems like 'marines are 8 foot tall 1 tonne monsters that shoot coke cans at their enemies', or have inferred this specialness from somewhere else.

Yes, space marines have a higher rank on the imperial pecking pole, but any special treatment comes more from their military force as protection against retribution than some imperial edict that says 'thou shalt not consider marines capable of the same kind of rebellion you execute guardsmen for in the same circumstances'.

If a marine chapter's strength was less than it is, they would be being executed at the same rate as guard regiments - perhaps more often because unlike rebellious guardsmen, rebellious marines live longer and are harder to kill, making them a strategically temporal threat beyond the flash in a pan rebellion.

In the end there is no part of the Pax Imperialis that grants special exemptions to space marines.

But there is part of the law of the galaxy that a full strength marine chapter is something you don't want to piss off, regardless of how right you are or how many laws you have behind you.

Matt Swain wrote:There's a famous high level inquisitor who is known for executing anyone he investigates. The innocent are burned just like witches and heretics because they wasted his precious time by failing to appear innocent enough to avoid being questioned by him.

But Karamazov at least has a reason to do things. If he's on a planet, it's not for the gaks and giggles, it's because something went wrong there. If something went wrong, there's your suspicion.

The Custodian had no such in-character reason for suspicion.

The custodes actions were just par for the course in the 40k imperium. I don't think the writer made a mistake, I don't think what the custodes did was right, I just think it was a tuesday in the 40k universe.

I disagree. Tuesday in 40k would be the Marines saying something out of line, or the Custodian having an actual reason to suspect them, then wiping them all out. Aka, there's a REASON, even if it's misguided or immoral.

I feel that a lot of you are missing what I'm saying. I don't think that the Custodian killing the Marines was out-of-character. The issue is that the Custodian had no reason to suspect that the Marines would be a problem, because they were Greyshields.

Let's recontextualise this with a police officer, and a random member of the public. They're having a totally innocent, regular conversation, when suddenly, the police officer shoots the civilian dead on the spot. Now, it later turns out that the victim was a mass murderer, and they would have been charged with a death penalty. But that doesn't change the fact the police officer acted with no evidence (not so much an issue for 40k), but no actual REASON to even suspect the civilian. Like, it's completely totally irrational, almost like the script dictated that's what they had to do. The concept itself is so irrational, I think that's what's confusing a lot of you.
My complaint isn't that the Custodian needs evidence or authority. My complaint is that the Custodian had no actual impulse or reason to even act in the first place!

Hellebore wrote:SGT_Smudge, you're granting far too much specialness to space marines.

You've fallen back on 'well they're just guardsmen so of course they'll be executed without cause' because your argument is based on the premise that space marines are super special exceptions to the everyday brutality of the Imperium.

Ughhhhh. That's completely not what I said. Did you actually *read* what I put?

The guardsmen aren't even executed without cause! They're executed because of *suspicion of exposure to Chaos*. There's your cause!

Now, what cause does the Custodian have to accuse the Space Marines of being a traitor? Geneseed? Not isolated. Training? Doctrine? Indoctrination? Not applicable to Greyshields. Upbringing? Recruitment pool? Homeworld? Not applicable either. Communication? The Custodian/Astropath should have all control over that.
In short, he has no pre-emptive reason to suspect the Greyshields. Now, as soon as a Greyshield says something in defence of the Drakes, he *would* have a reason - but in the extract, that's not what happens.

I'm not sure whether you've bought into the fandom hypetrain that includes gems like 'marines are 8 foot tall 1 tonne monsters that shoot coke cans at their enemies', or have inferred this specialness from somewhere else.

Yes, space marines have a higher rank on the imperial pecking pole, but any special treatment comes more from their military force as protection against retribution than some imperial edict that says 'thou shalt not consider marines capable of the same kind of rebellion you execute guardsmen for in the same circumstances'.

If a marine chapter's strength was less than it is, they would be being executed at the same rate as guard regiments - perhaps more often because unlike rebellious guardsmen, rebellious marines live longer and are harder to kill, making them a strategically temporal threat beyond the flash in a pan rebellion.

In the end there is no part of the Pax Imperialis that grants special exemptions to space marines.

But there is part of the law of the galaxy that a full strength marine chapter is something you don't want to piss off, regardless of how right you are or how many laws you have behind you.

Again, you've completely ignored what I put. Read it again. You clearly didn't read the first time.

I'm not saying Marines are special. I'm saying that even Guardsmen aren't executed without reason. Armageddon, Mortant - neither of those cases are without their reasons.
I know you so desperately want to latch onto "you're just a Marines fanboy", but that's not what I've said. I'm pointing out that the Imperium operates on an extreme "one strike and you're out" policy, where the moment you do something suspicious, you are immediately at risk of condemnation. However, that requires you to raise someone's suspicions. Something like having fought on a highly corrupting battlefield, or spoken in support of an enemy, or not given your tenth prayer facing exactly 33 degrees north. The Greyshields do nothing to raise the Custodian's suspicions. That is why the Custodian acting is improper - because it should be a reaction, not an action.

 harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't.

For me this is the key point, and undermines the story significantly.

The Greyshields are likely Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed (the most commonly used), but could conceivably be Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or whatever.

Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.

The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.

This. Sgt_Smudge's point is that it's weird the custodes thought the grey shields were traitors even though he's fully aware that the grey shields have no connection whatsoever with the marines on the planet EXCEPT a shared gene seed. So if sharing a primarch is what makes them traitors, then literally every other chapter descended from that primarch should also be traitors. If their geneseed came from Vulkan, for instance, then the custodes should believe that the Salamanders are now also heretics because they share the same geneseed as the Brazen Drakes.

And if geneseed isn't the custode's reason for calling the grey shields traitors, what is? Keep in mind, he called them traitors before they spoke out in defense of the Brazen Drakes. They've never met Brazen Drakes. They've never been on the same battlefield as Brazen Drakes. The only thing that makes them Brazen Drakes is a shared primarch and Guilliman (or whomever) deciding that they should go join the Brazen Drakes (which they haven't done yet).

No one is saying that the custodes actions were "too mean." No one is saying that it's out of character for marines to be killed if there's even the slightest suspicion that they've fallen to chaos. In this story, there is no evidence at all that the gray shields have fallen to chaos. I don't mean that I happen to think they're probably innocent and gosh shucks it sure would be nice if the custodes would have a polite chat about their thoughts on the matter. I mean that there was no logical connection between the grey shields and the Brazen Drakes at the time the custodes declared them traitors.

If his only reason for declaring them traitors was the words "Brazen Drakes" scribbled on their name tags, then by the same logic he would be compelle to commit suicide if someone added "Brazen Drakes" next to his name on the ship's rosters. And if the custodes is that dumb or silly, then I've clearly failed to pick up on the satirical, comedice tone that this story was going for.

I'm genuinely baffled by peoples' objections to Smudge pointing out this inconsistency.

The thing is Sgt_Smudge's objection is actually the heart of the story. When a Chapter goes rogue, it's entire roster is deemed traitors regardless of their personal actions. Regardless of how removed they are from the hersey at hand. Yes, even these guys who's only crime is someone put Brazen Drakes in their personnel file and dispatched them to a world no one knew was in termoil are suspect also. They have one choice, surrender to be judged or be judged for failing to surrender. There is no talking this through rationally. The Imperium of Man takes no chances when it comes to rebellion in the ranks, especially the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes.

There is a reason the story is named Consequences. It is about people paying the Consequences for other people's actions.

 alextroy wrote:
The thing is Sgt_Smudge's objection is actually the heart of the story. When a Chapter goes rogue, it's entire roster is deemed traitors regardless of their personal actions. Regardless of how removed they are from the hersey at hand. Yes, even these guys who's only crime is someone put Brazen Drakes in their personnel file and dispatched them to a world no one knew was in termoil are suspect also.

The custodes knows that the gray shields have no connection to the Brazen Drakes. If his logic for condemning them is being on the roster, then he's acting in a very stupid fashion. That stupidity is internally inconsistent with the intelligence custodes are supposed to possess. And that's my issue. It's an inconsistency with the internal logic of the setting.

They have one choice, surrender to be judged or be judged for failing to surrender. There is no talking this through rationally.

Well, they were already judged by the custodes to be traitors. It's not like he was offering them a chance to peacefully disarm so that their guilt could be determined later. He immediately decided they were traitors for no reason other than "Brazen Drakes" being scribbled above their names a few weeks ago.

The Imperium of Man takes no chances when it comes to rebellion in the ranks, especially the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes.

There was no chance to opt out of taking. There was zero reason to think that the marines would rebel at the time the custodes declared them traitors. Unless you mean armed conflict within the fleet, in which case the custodes took that from a possibility to a guarantee by immediately escalation the situation. By that logic, the custodes now have to go wage a war against every chapter sharing the same primarch as the Brazen Drakes if not every chapter in general. After all, those chapters have the same reason to be suspected as the gray shields (i.e. no reason at all).