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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Your only source for Greyshields being connected is this one story. Mine is a series of them, in a variety of major and minor publications.
I think I know which one I'm going to pay more attention to.

I don't care what's all over the short story. I care what's mentioned elsewhere. It's far more likely that one author is wrong instead of three.

Considering this short story is this short story and the characters/motive/plot are centered around this short story- I'm going to go with what the author is writing about in his short story that was published on a website ran by the company who approves canon for this setting.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Considering this short story is this short story and the characters/motive/plot are centered around this short story- I'm going to go with what the author is writing about in his short story that was published on a website ran by the company who approves canon for this setting.

The characters being Greyshields AND Brazen Drakes isn't critical to the story. I've demonstrated several ways you can tell this story with exactly the same themes, and have it actually make congruent sense with the other publications of the company who approve canon for the setting.

What is wrong with my alternative edits?

I don't think there is really something wrong with your proposed changes, it just seems that a number of people that responded here see them as not as crucial as you do for the story to make sense. I see your point, appreciate your arguments and don't see them as false. It's just that they don't convince me as the sole "right" intetpretation. And I too agree with the former poster that when the author mentions that these greyshields are Brazen Drakes in the eyes of everyone concerned at 13 points in his story, that his point comes across clear enough and therefore the acts of Tyvar fit the WH40k narrative.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

What is wrong with my alternative edits?

I don't think anything is wrong with your edits. In my mind you're trying to George Lucas Han Solo shot first this story. As has been pointed out numerous times this setting isn't logical. The Custodes being a total clown to Space Marines he perceives to be just like any other Space Marine makes sense for me personally. I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you and stop bothering you about this.

Wow, I'm beginning to understand the trainwreck factor thing. I mean this thread is a trainwreck at this point and the acrimony is actually both astounding and sad to see, yet I cannot look away.

I have to ask one question about the custodes now. Because there's one thing I see as a glaring issue.

The emperor himself created the space marines, they were made at his command and under his supervision. The primarchs were I believe made from the emperor's own DNA in some ways.

So the space marines are in a sense the handiwork of the emperor himself.

Now the costodes worship the emperor as a god. If they worship the emperor then shouldn't they respect his creations, the space marines?

If they truly view all marines with suspicion and doubt, isn't that doubting the work of their god and implying his work will always fail and become corrupted?

I mean if they think of the emperor as god then shouldn't they respect his creations more, and aren't the space marines one of his greatest creations?

Space Marines were mass produced out of the geneseed of their Primarchs. It is unlikely they will ever see the Emperor in person.

Custodes were rumored to have been made from the Emperor himself. They also have a solemn duty to personally protect the Emperor. Their greatest dishonor is failing to protect him when one of the Primarchs killed the Emperor.

So you have it backwards. Also the Horus Heresy showed that out of 'one of his greatest creations' half went traitor and tried to kill him and destroy the entire empire he created. Its pragmatic to doubt the work of someone who has a 50% failure rate.

Unless the think the Emperor planned on half his Primarchs and their Legions to rebel, I'm sure the Custodes see the Astartes as flawed creations. It's not like they weren't around when the Emperors said "I don't have any more time to perfect these guys. This will have to do."

As for the old Brazen Drakes Greyshields controversy, it's called alliterative shorthand. In those three words we get so much information. These are Primaris Marines who have never met their old marine chapter battle brothers but are considered to be of that chapter. Maybe Greysheild means these are guys who fought in the Indominus Crusade. Or maybe it just means they are from one of Cawl's batches of Primaris who are even now being sent out on their first foray into the galaxy. More information may come in War of the Spider, so stay tuned!

 Matt Swain wrote:
Wow, I'm beginning to understand the trainwreck factor thing. I mean this thread is a trainwreck at this point and the acrimony is actually both astounding and sad to see, yet I cannot look away.

I have to ask one question about the custodes now. Because there's one thing I see as a glaring issue.

The emperor himself created the space marines, they were made at his command and under his supervision. The primarchs were I believe made from the emperor's own DNA in some ways.

So the space marines are in a sense the handiwork of the emperor himself.

Now the costodes worship the emperor as a god. If they worship the emperor then shouldn't they respect his creations, the space marines?

If they truly view all marines with suspicion and doubt, isn't that doubting the work of their god and implying his work will always fail and become corrupted?

I mean if they think of the emperor as god then shouldn't they respect his creations more, and aren't the space marines one of his greatest creations?

You missed a crucially important detail here, the custodes do not worship the emperor as a God, in fact they are the only ones left who truly know of his goal of a secular imperium with them as its guardians.
The emperor specifically and painstakingly made them not only to be his guardians, but also his companions who should be able to converse with. The custodes from when the emperor was still around would never worship him as a God because he specifically told them he does not want to be one or worshipped as one. In 40k maybe some few custodes think of him as a godlike figure, but they don't worship him as a god.

I never knew much about the custodes, they never really interested me. I must say if they wanted to represent the emperor's vision of a society based on reason it sounds like they failed here.

Pyroalchi wrote:
I don't think there is really something wrong with your proposed changes, it just seems that a number of people that responded here see them as not as crucial as you do for the story to make sense. I see your point, appreciate your arguments and don't see them as false. It's just that they don't convince me as the sole "right" intetpretation. And I too agree with the former poster that when the author mentions that these greyshields are Brazen Drakes in the eyes of everyone concerned at 13 points in his story, that his point comes across clear enough and therefore the acts of Tyvar fit the WH40k narrative.

If we all generally agree that "Brazen Drake greyshields" are inconsistent with previous fluff, then it's just a matter of what you want to do with that information. Either...

* Greyshields being tied to a chapter isn't a thing (per the lore everywhere but in this story). In which case, the author made an oopsie. We can't really say whether the custodes is behaving in-character or not because that depends on him interacting with something that doesn't exist in the setting.

* The story is the first sign of a retcon to how greyshields work, and they are, in fact, functionally members of the Brazen Drakes. If this canon is accepted, the custode's behavior is internally consistent with the story. If the canon isn't accepted, then this story joins the ranks of other internally inconsistent bits of lore that people acknowledge or ignore to taste.

Basically, we all just saw a terminator do a back flip, and now we're debating whether backflipping terminators are a thing, or if that was just a weird thing that we'll quietly collectively agree doesn't really make sense.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I never knew much about the custodes, they never really interested me. I must say if they wanted to represent the emperor's vision of a society based on reason it sounds like they failed here.

They did. Though there is in fact an in lore reason for that albeit a weak one in my opinion: after the emperor took the golden throne roboute gulliman and the custodes agreed that their focus had to be to guard the throne and the emperor even more so than before, so they agreed that the custodes were no longer part of the imperium. They were their own body only responsible for the safety of the emperor, but they were not to interfere with the rest of the imperium. They even made this into law, though this was still in my opinion a formal agreement between them and primarch, because the custodes are not bound by any imperial law.

There also has to be said that right after the heresy the numbers of the custodes had been decimated massively due to staggering losses in the war of the webway, so there were dangerously few of them left and they had to replenish their numbers first.
Still I made a whole thread about how I still think that they are hypocrites because in the thousands of years that followed they could have dedicated a few of their number to advise and guide the leaders of the imperium towards a not so grimdark future, they definitely would have had the authority and the respect to do so.

On the other hand if they did, the setting might not be as cool as it is today with all the more or less over the top grimdarkness.

the custodes also know how easy it would be for them to get wrapped up in the petty partisan politics of the Imperium, now this isn't to say they don't act, but when they do it's more likely going to be with subtle manuverings and enchouaring the right people who can make a differance to take action, rather then take action themselves.

BrianDavion wrote:
the custodes also know how easy it would be for them to get wrapped up in the petty partisan politics of the Imperium, now this isn't to say they don't act, but when they do it's more likely going to be with subtle manuverings and enchouaring the right people who can make a differance to take action, rather then take action themselves.

This is a fair point and it would be absolutely true for real life politics. 40k and in this case the custodes are different though for a couple of reasons. The custodes are above any governing body in the imperium, they represent the word of the emperor himself as per his own verdict.
Now in real life this would be a massive problem because this would mean almost unlimited political power for the custodes as individuals and as a faction, which in real life would automatically lead to massive corruption. The custodes in this fictional universe however are completely incorruptible. There has not been a single one of them who turned traitor or abused his power in a way that would go against the emperors vision during their whole history and they have been since before the unification wars.
This comes at the cost of being extremely hard, expensive and time consuming to produce, but they would have had the political authority and the skills to lead the imperium to a better future when the emperor took the golden throne. And I don't mean as rulers, but as advisers and emissaries. There would still be corruption and grimdarkness in the imperium, but they could have set an example of what the emperor had originally envisioned.

Edit: also you are right, they did in fact act and influence certain people they deemed important over the course of their history, but my point is that it could have been healthier and more effective for the narrative of the imperium as a whole if they did it in a smart, but more public way. Though I've said many times, if they did and were written this way there could have been only two outcomes from an outside narrative perspective: either they succeed and the imperium wouldn't be as grimdark as it is now and therefore change the entire setting (which would suck), or they try and fail miserably, which would make them seem weak as a faction (which would also suck), because the perfect, incorruptible golden gods of the emperor with unlimited political power could still not change a thing for the better

So I generally really enjoy how they were written, the only thing I dislike is that the writers missed a golden opportunity with them: I've said this multiple times, but they should have written that the emperor can't keep the webway gate beneath the golden throne completely shut all the time, so from time to time demons can slip into the throneroom itself and the custodes have to fight small to mid size demon invasions in the hearth of the palace itself every couple hundred or thousand years. This would explain their absene during crucial times like the age of apostasy and give them a more legitimate reason to not care for the politics of the imperium than some deal with guilliman after the heresy.

edit2:grammar

Tiberias wrote:
So I generally really enjoy how they were written, the only thing I dislike is that the writers missed a golden opportunity with them: I've said this multiple times, but they should have written that the emperor can't keep the webway gate beneath the golden throne completely shut all the time, so from time to time demons can slip into the throneroom itself and the custodes have to fight small to mid size demon invasions in the hearth of the palace itself every couple hundred or thousand years. This would explain their absene during crucial times like the age of apostasy and give them a more legitimate reason to not care for the politics of the imperium than some deal with guilliman after the heresy.

I think this would be a great idea. GW could also release a box set with Custodes fighting Demons. Missed opportunity...

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
So I generally really enjoy how they were written, the only thing I dislike is that the writers missed a golden opportunity with them: I've said this multiple times, but they should have written that the emperor can't keep the webway gate beneath the golden throne completely shut all the time, so from time to time demons can slip into the throneroom itself and the custodes have to fight small to mid size demon invasions in the hearth of the palace itself every couple hundred or thousand years. This would explain their absene during crucial times like the age of apostasy and give them a more legitimate reason to not care for the politics of the imperium than some deal with guilliman after the heresy.

I think this would be a great idea. GW could also release a box set with Custodes fighting Demons. Missed opportunity...

Hook me up with someone at gw and I'll pitch it to them

They could still add this to the lore when another custodes codex rolls out in a couple of years, it would not conflict with the current lore, but rather extend it I think.

But ultimately this is just wishful thinking on my part